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Author Topic: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!  (Read 4286 times)

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keep-it-cool

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I got myself a helmet and applied for police protection before writing this ... but here goes ...

Amidst all the clamor over the new exciting finds in Indian cricket, one player who has gradually impressed me (I did not even realize as much) is Ajit Agarkar. I’ve probably been the most frustrated at the way this “potential all-rounder” has frittered away chance after chance after chance. But when one sits back and thinks back over the last year or so of cricket played by India in ODIs the following thoughts come up about Agarkar
-   He has been reasonably consistent.. of course, there have been off days, but not too many. In fact, in many matches, he has seemed to be our best pace bowler at the death
- He seems to have re-discovered two key deliveries – the inswinging Yorker at the death and the outswinger up front – AND MORE IMPORTANTLY,  seems to be executing them much better and much more consistently now. Continues to be a wicket taker
- Fielding has been as sharp as ever
- Has done nothing of note on the batting front, but has not really got too many opportunities – this however still remains a weakness
Net net however, AA seems to have improved a lot and it may not be a bad thing to look at him as afresh without looking at the past baggage. If he is able to maintain the consistency on the bowling front, I do not really find him to be worse than several of the new pacers that are coming through the ranks.

Forget that he is a “potential all-rounder”. Judge him as a bowler with some batting talent, who can be another useful cog in pursuing the five bowler strategy. While he may go back to his erratic ways and make me eat my words, I think at the moment, we can ill-afford to ignore him or write him off.

PS – I have not really gone into stats .. just by instinct and my sense of what I’ve been seeing on screen ... the numbers may very well tell a different story, in which case I’ll be only too glad to be corrected
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worma

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 12:05:42 PM »

I got myself a helmet and applied for police protection before writing this ... but here goes ...

Amidst all the clamor over the new exciting finds in Indian cricket, one player who has gradually impressed me (I did not even realize as much) is Ajit Agarkar. I’ve probably been the most frustrated at the way this “potential all-rounder” has frittered away chance after chance after chance. But when one sits back and thinks back over the last year or so of cricket played by India in ODIs the following thoughts come up about Agarkar
-   He has been reasonably consistent.. of course, there have been off days, but not too many. In fact, in many matches, he has seemed to be our best pace bowler at the death
- He seems to have re-discovered two key deliveries – the inswinging Yorker at the death and the outswinger up front – AND MORE IMPORTANTLY,  seems to be executing them much better and much more consistently now. Continues to be a wicket taker
- Fielding has been as sharp as ever
- Has done nothing of note on the batting front, but has not really got too many opportunities – this however still remains a weakness
Net net however, AA seems to have improved a lot and it may not be a bad thing to look at him as afresh without looking at the past baggage. If he is able to maintain the consistency on the bowling front, I do not really find him to be worse than several of the new pacers that are coming through the ranks.

Forget that he is a “potential all-rounder”. Judge him as a bowler with some batting talent, who can be another useful cog in pursuing the five bowler strategy. While he may go back to his erratic ways and make me eat my words, I think at the moment, we can ill-afford to ignore him or write him off.

PS – I have not really gone into stats .. just by instinct and my sense of what I’ve been seeing on screen ... the numbers may very well tell a different story, in which case I’ll be only too glad to be corrected
Not wide off the mark...I mostly agree. I would picks him as my third seamer in ODIs above other contenders as things stand currently.

Btw, he never lost any of his capabilties (beside the inswing yorker, outswinger, he also can bowl seam-ups very well)..just that he doesnt put them into the right package every time. Seems to be doing that more, lately. He was, btw, an ideal candidate for specialist bowling coach help. Anyways...seems to have sorted out right now. Looks to bowl with more control esp in his first spell.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2006, 12:07:57 PM »

Wonder if Chandrakant Pandit had anything to do with it ... Munaf Patel also seems to have become a lot more disciplined after playing for Maharashtra ... and Pandit's also moved there ... maybe pure coincidence, but worth a thought
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2006, 12:14:46 PM »

I always equated Agarkar with talent + no brains. Sort of like a bowling Sehwag. And I equate him to our version of Mohammad Sami. These fellas keep flattering to deceive. They've got the goods, they should and could be excellent bowlers in both Tests and ODIs, but they dont have the grey matter to make it happen.
In Mohd Sami's case I think his best friend Imran Khan has tried helping the lad out INNUMERABLE times, always to find this fellow getting tonked around and being totally ineffectual.
Agarkar this season has bowled effectively. Hell, on flat pitches he has done a good job. But something somewhere inside me itches to say IT CANT LAST. Of course, this is no reason to keep him out of our plans. As long as he keeps playing the way he has been (especially last two ODIs, FANTASTIC) let the coaches or whoever keep doing to him whatever they have been doing, be it periodical rest, some specialized training or whatever. He can do things.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2006, 01:32:36 PM »

I always equated Agarkar with talent + no brains. Sort of like a bowling Sehwag. And I equate him to our version of Mohammad Sami. These fellas keep flattering to deceive. They've got the goods, they should and could be excellent bowlers in both Tests and ODIs, but they dont have the grey matter to make it happen.
In Mohd Sami's case I think his best friend Imran Khan has tried helping the lad out INNUMERABLE times, always to find this fellow getting tonked around and being totally ineffectual.
Agarkar this season has bowled effectively. Hell, on flat pitches he has done a good job. But something somewhere inside me itches to say IT CANT LAST. Of course, this is no reason to keep him out of our plans. As long as he keeps playing the way he has been (especially last two ODIs, FANTASTIC) let the coaches or whoever keep doing to him whatever they have been doing, be it periodical rest, some specialized training or whatever. He can do things.

DD, I agree Agarkar has flattered to deceive in the past. WHich is why I said not fully convinced yet in the title ... but I also feel that sometimes we do injustice to the guy by going back to the 7 ducks in a row and his erratic bowling two to three years back ... which was the entire point of this thread .. he may still disappoint, in which case, chuck him out by all means
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avinashgodkhindi

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2006, 11:19:31 PM »

AT LAST !!! I am very happy to see ppl are noticing these things about Agarkar I have been harping about for the past 6-8 months. KIC applauds for u for having spotteed it and having the guts to put it across! He is not great but not as bad as well. If u notice his batting sicne 2004 in ODIs and teests he has done pretty ok, this season though he hasn't had many chances. I think he is our 3rd seameer nad death bowler easaily and a fall back witht he bat that is required with only 5 batsmen around.
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mm

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2006, 12:53:31 AM »

I am not a fan of Agarkar AT ALL but yes, he does come up with some stunning performances though they are few and far between and then once he does well he starts acting like Shoaib Akhtar used to, on the field (yelling at fielders and holding his head higher than he should). 

One area he has been consistent is fielding :)

I think his problem is largely mental - he is not gritty and does not seem to think through tough situations and at the same time he does not seem to think about why he was successful and think about how to apply those traits in different situations.  He seems happiest when he picks up wickets even if the team loses.
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toney

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 02:02:31 AM »

Has anyone felt this? AA usually does well in ODIs when the wicket is more towards the slower side. He makes good use of the cutters and also the yorkers.
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senthilpeter

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 02:40:16 AM »

I always equated Agarkar with talent + no brains. Sort of like a bowling Sehwag. And I equate him to our version of Mohammad Sami. These fellas keep flattering to deceive. They've got the goods, they should and could be excellent bowlers in both Tests and ODIs, but they dont have the grey matter to make it happen.
In Mohd Sami's case I think his best friend Imran Khan has tried helping the lad out INNUMERABLE times, always to find this fellow getting tonked around and being totally ineffectual.
Agarkar this season has bowled effectively. Hell, on flat pitches he has done a good job. But something somewhere inside me itches to say IT CANT LAST. Of course, this is no reason to keep him out of our plans. As long as he keeps playing the way he has been (especially last two ODIs, FANTASTIC) let the coaches or whoever keep doing to him whatever they have been doing, be it periodical rest, some specialized training or whatever. He can do things.

Dhruv, well said.

I've noticed Agarkar's improvment in ODIs this season. I tend to think that part of it is that he must finally be feeling that he's on notice. In other words, he realises he could be booted out with ease and nothing may get him back. I think the fear of Dravid and Chappel is there and he's finally applying himself.
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gouravk

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2006, 03:09:12 AM »

ON the contrary I think he has more faith that this administration will not discrimante against him and reward good performance and talent. Which is why he is a lot more relaxed.
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mm

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2006, 04:43:36 AM »

Dravid has always been bullish on Agarkar.  He had said in an interview several years ago that AA was next big hope for Indian cricket - I guess he thought AA would turn out to be what Pathan now is.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2006, 04:53:04 AM »

AT LAST !!! I am very happy to see ppl are noticing these things about Agarkar I have been harping about for the past 6-8 months. KIC applauds for u for having spotteed it and having the guts to put it across! He is not great but not as bad as well. If u notice his batting sicne 2004 in ODIs and teests he has done pretty ok, this season though he hasn't had many chances. I think he is our 3rd seameer nad death bowler easaily and a fall back witht he bat that is required with only 5 batsmen around.

I remember you called this one much earlier avinash. I, frankly, was not convinced some time back because we have rarely seen AA sustaining the good effort for long. But now at the end of this very long season, when one looks back, I think he has finally managed to do that - sustain the effort for long. One observation I made was that there were very few occassions in the last year or so where I've felt like tearing my hair in frustration at something AA did (be it while bowling or batting) - and that is what set me thinking. Of course, the way he held his nerve in the two ODIs against Pakistan also helped :) Hope this phase lasts much longer this time around!

Applause to you as well for calling this early.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2006, 04:58:04 AM »

gaurav, mm, senthil, toney

i mentioned this earlier and i think it bears repetition ... besides being put on notice and feeling wanted by the team management (both of which have happened to AA in the past as well), one really needs to evaluate whether chandrakant pandit's stint as coach of Mumbai has something to do with the improvement. Especially given that Munaf Patel's improvement as a bowler also seems to have coincided with Pandit's move to coach Maharashtra ...

Also, we also now see more Mumbai players ... RP, WJ ... coming into the India side and performing well .... not sure whether it can entirely be attributed to pandit, but at least it is something worth considering. Maybe this could be a topic for a different thread.
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senthilpeter

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2006, 07:37:41 AM »

gaurav, mm, senthil, toney

i mentioned this earlier and i think it bears repetition ... besides being put on notice and feeling wanted by the team management (both of which have happened to AA in the past as well), one really needs to evaluate whether chandrakant pandit's stint as coach of Mumbai has something to do with the improvement. Especially given that Munaf Patel's improvement as a bowler also seems to have coincided with Pandit's move to coach Maharashtra ...

Also, we also now see more Mumbai players ... RP, WJ ... coming into the India side and performing well .... not sure whether it can entirely be attributed to pandit, but at least it is something worth considering. Maybe this could be a topic for a different thread.

Surely an interesting angle KIC. Maybe he has been a factor... quite possible. But I have read or followed Pandit's work so little that I can't comment any more intelligently.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2006, 07:42:28 AM »

gaurav, mm, senthil, toney

i mentioned this earlier and i think it bears repetition ... besides being put on notice and feeling wanted by the team management (both of which have happened to AA in the past as well), one really needs to evaluate whether chandrakant pandit's stint as coach of Mumbai has something to do with the improvement. Especially given that Munaf Patel's improvement as a bowler also seems to have coincided with Pandit's move to coach Maharashtra ...

Also, we also now see more Mumbai players ... RP, WJ ... coming into the India side and performing well .... not sure whether it can entirely be attributed to pandit, but at least it is something worth considering. Maybe this could be a topic for a different thread.

Surely an interesting angle KIC. Maybe he has been a factor... quite possible. But I have read or followed Pandit's work so little that I can't comment any more intelligently.

senthil, neither can I. What I have written is all I know
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Rocky

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2006, 03:19:14 PM »

There was nothing really wrong with Ajit Agarkar. His main problem was that even though he used to bowl 3-4 really good wicket taking potential deliveries, he would then spoil it all and his analysis by bowling two utter crap deliveries. Sreesanth has this problem right now in some matches.
His batting is very one dimensional and not international standard.
Safe and effective fielder in the deep and in the ring.
Now, he has cut down drastically on his 4 balls.
So the pressure on him is less now and he bowls better.
He still has a problem of controlling the swing that he gets in helpful conditions. He tends to overswing the ball, giving width to batsmen in consequence.
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toney

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2006, 03:41:27 PM »

kic,
You may have a point about Chadrakant Pandit. If so, why look far away for a bowling coach?
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worma

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2006, 03:46:09 PM »

There was nothing really wrong with Ajit Agarkar. His main problem was that even though he used to bowl 3-4 really good wicket taking potential deliveries, he would then spoil it all and his analysis by bowling two utter crap deliveries. Sreesanth has this problem right now in some matches.
His batting is very one dimensional and not international standard.
Safe and effective fielder in the deep and in the ring.
Now, he has cut down drastically on his 4 balls.
So the pressure on him is less now and he bowls better.
He still has a problem of controlling the swing that he gets in helpful conditions. He tends to overswing the ball, giving width to batsmen in consequence.
Am just curious....I do hear that certain bowlers have problems in controling the swing...but I wonder, how exactly do others tend to control it? I mean, swing is obtained as per laws of physics...bowl with certain position of the ball...with right length etc...and it would swing...as much as..umm...the bernauli principle applies....so how do others control? Is it the line? So, if you're getting more outswing..start with legstump line...and so on?
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jaat69

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2006, 03:48:56 PM »

Ajit Agarkar is a huge load on the Indian team....jisse kehte hain "dharti pe bojh"! :D
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Sahir

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2006, 03:54:49 PM »

There was nothing really wrong with Ajit Agarkar. His main problem was that even though he used to bowl 3-4 really good wicket taking potential deliveries, he would then spoil it all and his analysis by bowling two utter crap deliveries. Sreesanth has this problem right now in some matches.
His batting is very one dimensional and not international standard.
Safe and effective fielder in the deep and in the ring.
Now, he has cut down drastically on his 4 balls.
So the pressure on him is less now and he bowls better.
He still has a problem of controlling the swing that he gets in helpful conditions. He tends to overswing the ball, giving width to batsmen in consequence.
Am just curious....I do hear that certain bowlers have problems in controling the swing...but I wonder, how exactly do others tend to control it? I mean, swing is obtained as per laws of physics...bowl with certain position of the ball...with right length etc...and it would swing...as much as..umm...the bernauli principle applies....so how do others control? Is it the line? So, if you're getting more outswing..start with legstump line...and so on?

Yes, worma, I think it does have to do with the line of the ball.  However, swinging the ball from offstump going away is much easier than getting it to swing from legstump.  The true test of a great swing bowler is getting the ball to swing away in the completely opposite direction of its natural line (you can analogize it to a Warne delivery drifting in and then turning away).  Modern day, you see Pathan do this particularly well, angling the ball across the right handers, a line that would start from over the wicket and head diagonally towards the first slip, only to completely change direction and hurl in towards the batsman.  Most bowlers are not able to "control" the swing in that manner.  They can control it when the ball is swinging in the same direction as the natural line, or at least not against it.  Therefore, when there is quite a lot of swing available, it becomes necessary at times to be able to swing the ball against its natural line in order to avoid providing the batsman with too much width.  However, I suppose it is still better to provide width with a ball swinging outside offstump, bringing the slips into play, should the batsman edge the delivery, as opposed to attempting to bowl outside your limitations and swing it against the natural line and have the ball drift down legside for some easy pickings.
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ruchir

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2006, 03:58:47 PM »

Am just curious....I do hear that certain bowlers have problems in controling the swing...but I wonder, how exactly do others tend to control it? I mean, swing is obtained as per laws of physics...bowl with certain position of the ball...with right length etc...and it would swing...as much as..umm...the bernauli principle applies....so how do others control? Is it the line? So, if you're getting more outswing..start with legstump line...and so on?

Worma: I remember Botham (I think it was him) explaining the swing generated by Pathan and Hoggard by using the "Dart Fish" slow motion technology. Botham explaine thru the video that when Pathan got appreciable swing while bowling over-the-wicket, ball's seam was perfectly stable and it was pointing towards (about) the 3rd slip. In a second clip, Botham showed a delivery that did not swing much but just a little. In that clip the seam was pointing towards 1st slip. He showed similar clips of Hoggard with exact same results. This was shown during the Test matches.

He also showed that when Pathan goes for LBW against left-handers, he first bowls 2-3 out-swingers with seam pointing towards 3rd slip. Then he bang one down, full and fast, with seam pointing towards the batsman. That ball, infact, in-swings just a shade to miss the bat and finds the batsman trapped in front of wickets.

So, maybe good swing bowlers control the amount of swing they can generate by changing the seam position of the ball at the time of delivery. I'm sure there may be other ways too but this was one way described during the IND-ENGTest series
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Sahir

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2006, 04:03:44 PM »

Ruchir,
Yes, the seam postion for the outswinger and the indipper are different, and it is really the wrist position on release point that makes that difference.  Those with the most subtle changes, of course, are the most lethal.
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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2006, 04:28:15 PM »

kic,
You may have a point about Chadrakant Pandit. If so, why look far away for a bowling coach?

If a former wicketkeeper can coach bowlers like MP and AA and make a difference, then why not Chappell. I am not endorsing Chappell nor saying that we should not have a bowling coach, just that Chandrakant Pandit is not a good example of a bowling coach.
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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2006, 05:56:14 PM »

I don't know why they haven't tried playing Agarkar at one drop (like they often do with Pathan). After all, the order of batsmen has been experimented with quite heavily under Dravid/Chappell.

I do recollect the times he has delivered at the top of the order. The good thing about him (like Pathan) is that if he sticks around his run rate will be good. He doesn't scratch around for nothing.

IMO, it is very persuasive (a) to put him higher up in the batting order (b) with a mission to force the pace when situations demand it.
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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2006, 06:58:36 PM »

Another way to not swing the ball with the exact same action is to scramble the seam. This was how Pathan got Imran Farhat out in the second ODI. They even showed a split screen comparison of a normal outswinger and that wicket ball. Everything, including wrist position, was same except for the slight different angle in which he held the ball in his hand ( and i don't think the batsman can notice this)
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toney

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2006, 08:10:20 PM »

kic,
You may have a point about Chadrakant Pandit. If so, why look far away for a bowling coach?

If a former wicketkeeper can coach bowlers like MP and AA and make a difference, then why not Chappell. I am not endorsing Chappell nor saying that we should not have a bowling coach, just that Chandrakant Pandit is not a good example of a bowling coach.

Ranjit, if GC shows the ability to do this, I dont have a problem. But if Pandit has a reputation of doing this, isnt it good that our top 5-8 bowlers get a chance first? Obviously, this is assuming that AA and MP had success after working with Pandit.
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worma

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2006, 08:18:45 PM »

Thanks Sahir, Ruchir for the descriptions.

Sahir, the point about trying too much, swing away from the line, and straying down leg rings a very very familiar bell :-) Agarkar has been guilty of that often. I guess the key is to realise *out there* what is happening and how much, as fast as possible.
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2006, 08:42:31 PM »

Ruchir,
Yes, the seam postion for the outswinger and the indipper are different, and it is really the wrist position on release point that makes that difference.  Those with the most subtle changes, of course, are the most lethal.
One of the reasons people are saying Asif is great is because he bowls all sorts of deliveries without any perceptible change in action.
Normal bowlers will bowl the inswinger and outswinger differently. Generally the bowling wrist should end up to the left of your left knee after releasing the ball for the outswinger, and near your right knee for the inswinger (in conjunction with release, seam position, conditions etc). There is a distinct change. Of course bowling greats like Wasim Akram found ways around that which was why they were unplayable.
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djlykan

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2006, 08:50:47 PM »

An interesting foot-note about Asif is that even though he is a seamer, images in slow-motion showed a seam that was almost straight, or pointing toward slips, hitting the pitch and cutting in sharply, with the seam gripping and rotating. I think to some extent swing and seam are related arts but the wrist movements really determine which will predominate! Especially with the new 'contrast swing' theory doing the rounds and raising questions about 'accepted knowledge'!
I think the wrist position is the key!
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worma

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2006, 09:00:43 PM »

An interesting foot-note about Asif is that even though he is a seamer, images in slow-motion showed a seam that was almost straight, or pointing toward slips, hitting the pitch and cutting in sharply, with the seam gripping and rotating. I think to some extent swing and seam are related arts but the wrist movements really determine which will predominate! Especially with the new 'contrast swing' theory doing the rounds and raising questions about 'accepted knowledge'!
I think the wrist position is the key!
Yes...I remember it was the one that got Lax in Karachi, first innings. Holdings said there was no way he planned (and bowled) it thus...implying it was by accident. Asif went on to bowl quite a few similar deliveries in that match....Holding's views not known :-)

Asif's further success in SL, although I didn't watch, shows that what he did was very much a part of his regular skill-set. Hence, an exciting summer in England awaits us cricket fans.
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djlykan

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2006, 09:08:49 PM »

It also has to do with how the shoulder swings through. Pathan is perhaps the poster boy for that. Notice how the arc he describes with his arm is not as vertical as say, Zaheer Khan's. His elbow position at point of delivery seems very different too.
Perhaps this is the most interesting part, a predominantly swing bowler's action depends on many things going right, from the body position, to the shoulder arc, and even the elbow and wrist position! A predominantly seam bowler's main concern is the wrist position and jerk at release. I'm only talking about lateral movement here, so of course the whole action is important for pace, line, etc. for any bowler. I just think that seam bowling and swing bowling are different in quite a few ways!
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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2006, 12:31:09 PM »

kic,
You may have a point about Chadrakant Pandit. If so, why look far away for a bowling coach?

If a former wicketkeeper can coach bowlers like MP and AA and make a difference, then why not Chappell. I am not endorsing Chappell nor saying that we should not have a bowling coach, just that Chandrakant Pandit is not a good example of a bowling coach.

Ranjit, if GC shows the ability to do this, I dont have a problem. But if Pandit has a reputation of doing this, isnt it good that our top 5-8 bowlers get a chance first? Obviously, this is assuming that AA and MP had success after working with Pandit.
toney, ranjit

we do not know if pandit is responsible ... he may be ... but as bowling coach, i am not sure. both AA and MP did not, as far as i can see, have too much wrong with their basics .. it was just a case of not being consistent enough ... being wayward ... this may be easier to correct by getting them to work hard .. focus a lot more ... just by being a pain like most tough coaches are ... force them to bowl at a particular point on the pitch again and again or something on those lines

but a bowling coach needs to do a lot more, i guess ... like teaching a predominantly outswing bowler how to bowl the inswinger or the art of bowling effectively on different type of pitches .. maybe even how to make sure that you are able to be switched on immediately when you come on for a new spell etc ... which someone who has been a bowler himself may be able to do much better ... then there is also the fact that a specialist bowling coach can be fully focused on just the bowling, while someone like a GC also has a lot of other things to think about ...

not to say that GC or pandit may not be able to do the same .. just that a bowler as bowling coach may be able to offer a lot more.
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kban1

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2006, 09:19:26 PM »

dlyjkan:

very good point about the wrist position -- that is often the key to not only determine the direction of the swing but also the amount of the swing (how much the wrist is cocked).

Dhruv:

the wrist position at the end of the delivery is not an example of an imperceptible action simply because the batsmen does not have time to determine swing or intended swing from where the hand ends up relative to the left or right knee.

Usually, a bowler will use different poisitions at the crease to deliver the 2 different balls, will be either more side on or open chested depending on which ball is being bowled, and the point of release of the ball will differ (higher release vs lower release) when bowling the different balls.

An imperceptible change in action while bowling in vs out swingers, therefore, has more to do with the ability to deliver both deliveries from the same position at the crease, delivering both from either a side on or open chested action, and little change in the point of release of the ball from the hand.

worma:

Quote
Yes...I remember it was the one that got Lax in Karachi, first innings. Holdings said there was no way he planned (and bowled) it thus...implying it was by accident. Asif went on to bowl quite a few similar deliveries in that match....Holding's views not known :-)

I think Holding was spot on about Asif's delivery that got laxman. That ball was bowled with a straight seam pointing towards the slips and once the ball hit the grass, it lost its direction, became a scrambled wobbly seam ball that changed direction to hit the wicket. This had more to do with the ball changing direction after hitting blades of grass on the wicket.

the subsequent similar deliveries bowled by Asif did not exhibit this level of deviation (as impressive as they were) and neither were they intended as leg cutters as the Lax delivery was --they were intended as off cutters, ball moved in the same direction, although still appreciably.

And Holding of all people should know about the delivery pitching wide outside off and deviating in sharply to knock a batsman's stumps over. He made a living of that delivery --the wicked off cutter which deviated that much to flummox the batsman (some even more than Asif's ball to VVS). And in those deliveries, the ball was a genuine cutter, not one intended to seam towards off and veer back to leg upon hitting the pitch like Asif to VVS.

I believe MH was spot on about that particular delivery. The subsequent Asif deliveries were similar in result, not similar in method.
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djlykan

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2006, 09:32:46 PM »

kban1,
good point, but I do remember other deliveries from Asif, while not showing as pronounced a deviation from this one, doing the same thing from a seemingly unorthodox seam position before striking the pitch. It may be that Asif's method of bowling could be a indicator that perhaps wrist position and the snap at delivery could have far more to do with seam movement than we believed possible till date. Much like the 'contrast swing' theory could throw a spanner in all the current theories about how swing is best achieved! All in all, it will be interesting, no, very interesting to see Asif bowl in England.
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2006, 09:43:08 PM »

dlyjkan:

very good point about the wrist position -- that is often the key to not only determine the direction of the swing but also the amount of the swing (how much the wrist is cocked).

Dhruv:

the wrist position at the end of the delivery is not an example of an imperceptible action simply because the batsmen does not have time to determine swing or intended swing from where the hand ends up relative to the left or right knee.

Usually, a bowler will use different poisitions at the crease to deliver the 2 different balls, will be either more side on or open chested depending on which ball is being bowled, and the point of release of the ball will differ (higher release vs lower release) when bowling the different balls.

An imperceptible change in action while bowling in vs out swingers, therefore, has more to do with the ability to deliver both deliveries from the same position at the crease, delivering both from either a side on or open chested action, and little change in the point of release of the ball from the hand.

worma:

Quote
Yes...I remember it was the one that got Lax in Karachi, first innings. Holdings said there was no way he planned (and bowled) it thus...implying it was by accident. Asif went on to bowl quite a few similar deliveries in that match....Holding's views not known :-)

I think Holding was spot on about Asif's delivery that got laxman. That ball was bowled with a straight seam pointing towards the slips and once the ball hit the grass, it lost its direction, became a scrambled wobbly seam ball that changed direction to hit the wicket. This had more to do with the ball changing direction after hitting blades of grass on the wicket.

the subsequent similar deliveries bowled by Asif did not exhibit this level of deviation (as impressive as they were) and neither were they intended as leg cutters as the Lax delivery was --they were intended as off cutters, ball moved in the same direction, although still appreciably.

And Holding of all people should know about the delivery pitching wide outside off and deviating in sharply to knock a batsman's stumps over. He made a living of that delivery --the wicked off cutter which deviated that much to flummox the batsman (some even more than Asif's ball to VVS). And in those deliveries, the ball was a genuine cutter, not one intended to seam towards off and veer back to leg upon hitting the pitch like Asif to VVS.

I believe MH was spot on about that particular delivery. The subsequent Asif deliveries were similar in result, not similar in method.

kban, i was just typing it from the bowler's point of view. the batsman certainly shouldnt be waiting around to see where the hand ends up ;D
side-on or open-chested basically should end up in the respective positions of the hand that i mentioned. this was my point. this is how a less talented bloke will bowl it, or attempt to bowl it. the rigors of technique and such. but this is not how a wasim akram did it.
good stuff about the wrist-cock which is even more important than side-on vs chest-on. Sreesanth's wrist-cock is very pronounced. He holds the ball with his knuckles almost facing the ground, brings his arm around, and then *whatever sound a wrist uncoiling is supposed to make* voila. The position of the seam when he releases the ball is something to behold too.
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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2006, 10:22:17 PM »

dhruv:

sorry, I misunderstood your earlier comment, lol.

A point abt side on vs open chested -- the batsman does notice the relatively side on or open  chested position at the point of delivery because the former implies an attempt at an outswinger, the latter an attempt at an inswinger.

Good observation about Sreesanth there dhruv --very pronounced wrist cock.

dlykjan:

yes, I agree with you about some of Asif's later balls -some of these became wobbly too (the difference being the first one wasnt intended as an incutter because the seam was pointing towards 1st / 2nd slip whereas the later ones had seam slightly slanted towards leg).

I think you are spot on about his strong wrist snap (I noticed that too), which I think enables him to bowl a good cutter. Could be contrast swing too although I am hesitant about that label primarily because
a) while I understand what it is, the physics of it is not clear to me
b) these deliveries were more deviation off the pitch than swing in the air.

Having said that, contrast swing could really revolutionize cricket in the next few years.

Dhruv and dlyjkan --your applauses will come after 12 hrs since I have already applauded you on other posts ;D
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dhruvdeepak

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2006, 11:59:33 PM »

dhruv:

sorry, I misunderstood your earlier comment, lol.

A point abt side on vs open chested -- the batsman does notice the relatively side on or open  chested position at the point of delivery because the former implies an attempt at an outswinger, the latter an attempt at an inswinger.

Good observation about Sreesanth there dhruv --very pronounced wrist cock.

dlykjan:

yes, I agree with you about some of Asif's later balls -some of these became wobbly too (the difference being the first one wasnt intended as an incutter because the seam was pointing towards 1st / 2nd slip whereas the later ones had seam slightly slanted towards leg).

I think you are spot on about his strong wrist snap (I noticed that too), which I think enables him to bowl a good cutter. Could be contrast swing too although I am hesitant about that label primarily because
a) while I understand what it is, the physics of it is not clear to me
b) these deliveries were more deviation off the pitch than swing in the air.

Having said that, contrast swing could really revolutionize cricket in the next few years.

Dhruv and dlyjkan --your applauses will come after 12 hrs since I have already applauded you on other posts ;D
shukriya. btw at the start of the ind-pak odis in pak, did you see the little piece they did comparing Sreesanth and Asif's bowling actions? Basically they interposed one's run up on the other. It turns out that after the jump and from the landing onwards, their actions are very, very similar. Almost identical in fact, in terms of wrist position behind the ball, where the arm is positioned over the head, and the follow through of the arm after the ball is released. It is particularly striking because you dont figure that the actions are anything close to each other, when viewed separately (at least i didnt).
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kban1

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2006, 01:24:36 AM »

No, actually I did not notice that. I suppose Asif will benefit from his height but very interesting I must say.
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worma

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2006, 09:07:45 AM »

kban1: To add a bit to what others have said since your reply....that delivery from Asif was indeed bowled with seam upright (or slightly towards slip) and no, it did not become wobbly or scrambled after pitching, it simply chnaged direction towards the batsman!...and then held that line.

Other deliveries in that match, although not displaying that much of movement, were indeed bowled with similar seam positions, and similar change on pitching...e.g. the delivery that got Laxman in second innings.

So, not really understanding how that dude does it, I think Asif has a method behind it.
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kban1

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Re: AJIT AGARKAR – NOT YET FULLY CONVINCED, BUT GETTING THERE!!
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2006, 05:29:40 PM »

worma:

I have the game on tape. I shall look into that delivery closely, especially the slow-mo close-in to double check but my distinct recollection is that the VVS delivery quite clearly became a wobbly ball after pitching (which was different from the others which changed changed direction but didn't become wobbly, therefore indicating a very good cutter). And that's why MH's comment about the VVS delivery made sense to me -- IMO, the grass in the pitch came into play.

I shall confirm this for you after I roll the tape again.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 05:32:54 PM by kban1 »
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