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flute

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Indian army ill prepared
« on: January 20, 2009, 11:27:27 PM »
Those beating their breast shouting for all our war, strikes, raids, no risk of nuclear war etc., should find this one really interesting  :D

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KA21Df02.html

Indian army 'backed out' of Pakistan attack
By Siddharth Srivastava

NEW DELHI - Reluctance for battle by an ill-prepared army could have resulted in India not launching an attack on Pakistan in the aftermath of the Pakistan-linked terror attack in the Indian city of Mumbai on November 26 in which nearly 200 people died.

High-level government sources have told Asia Times Online that army commanders impressed on the political leadership in New Delhi that an inadequate and obsolete arsenal at their disposal mitigated against an all-out war.

The navy and air force, however, had given the government the go-ahead about their preparedness to carry out an attack and repulse

 

any retaliation from Pakistan.

Over the past few weeks, it has become increasingly apparent from top officials in the know that the closed-door meetings of top military commanders and political leaders discussed the poor state of the armory (both ammunition and artillery), and that this tilted the balance in favor of not striking at Pakistan.

According to senior officials, following the attack on Mumbai by 10 militants linked to Pakistan, India's top leadership looked at two options closely - war and hot pursuit.

Largely for the reasons cited above, the notion of an all-out war was rejected. Hot pursuit, however, remains very much on the table.

The government sources say that a framework for covert operations is being put in place, although India will continue to deny such actions. Crack naval, air and army forces backed by federal intelligence agencies will be involved. The target areas will be Pakistan-administered Kashmir and areas along the Punjab, such as Multan, where some of the Mumbai attackers are believed to have been recruited.

The coastal belt from the southern port city of Karachi to Gwadar in Balochistan province will also be under active Indian surveillance.

Thumbs down to war
Following the Mumbai attack, New Delhi's inclination was to launch a quick strike against Pakistan to impress domestic opinion, and then be prepared for a short war, given the pressures that would be exercised by international powers for a ceasefire to prevent nuclear war breaking out.

The expectation of New Delhi was that the war would go beyond the traditional skirmishes involving artillery fire that take place at the Kashmir border, essentially to check infiltration by militants, or the brief but bloody exchanges at Kargil in 1999.

It was in this context that the army made it apparent that it was not equipped to fight such a war, given the military's presence along the eastern Chinese borders, and that India was at risk of ceding territory should an instant ceasefire be brokered with Pakistan.

This would have been highly embarrassing, not to mention political suicide for the Congress-led government in an election year. So instead, New Delhi restricted itself to a strident diplomatic offensive that continues to date, and the option of hot pursuit.

The air force, on the other hand, was confident that it was prepared to take on the first retaliatory action by Pakistan, expected at forward air force bases along India's borders in Rajasthan, Gujarat and Indian-administered Kashmir. The role of the navy in the operations was not clearly defined, but it was to cover from the Arabian Sea.

Not ready to fight
Various experts, former generals and independent reports have voiced concern over the past few years about the state of preparedness of the Indian army.

For example, the Bofors gun scandal of the 1980s stymied the army's artillery modernization plan, with no induction of powerful guns since the 1986 purchase of 410 Bofors 155mm/39-caliber howitzers. The army has been trying to introduce 400 such guns from abroad and another 1,100 manufactured domestically, without success.

The latest report by the independent Comptroller and Auditor General said the state's production of 23mm ammunition for Shilka anti-aircraft cannons and 30mm guns mounted on infantry combat vehicles lacked quality. Further, supply was nearly 35% short of requirements.

India's huge tank fleet is in bad shape due to a shortage of Russian spare parts, while indigenous efforts, such as the main battle tank Arjun, have failed.

Signs of trouble emerged during the Kargil war when it was revealed that India's defense forces were dealing with acute shortages in every sphere.

In remarks that underscored the problems, the then-army chief, V P Malik, said his forces would make do with whatever was in hand, given the fears of a full-scale war that was eventually avoided due to pressure by America, then under president Bill Clinton.

The Kargil review committee report noted, "The heavy involvement of the army in counter-insurgency operations cannot but affect its preparedness for its primary role, which is to defend the country against external aggression."

Although there have been attempts to hasten India's overall defense modernization program, estimated at over US$50 billion over the next five years, gaping holes need to be plugged, including corruption and massive delays in the defense procurement processes.

India's defense expenditure has dipped below 2% of gross domestic product for the first time in decades, despite experts pegging 3% as adequate.

Other defense arms are in dire need of enhancement. Fighter jet squadrons are much below required strength, while the bidding process for medium fighter planes has only just begun and may take a few years to complete.

Meanwhile, the prospects of an India-Pakistan conflict are not over. India's army chief, General Deepak Kapoor, said last week that Pakistan had redeployed troops from its Afghan border to the western frontier with India. "The Indian army has factored this in its planning," Kapoor said.

Siddharth Srivastava is a New Delhi-based journalist. He can be reached at sidsri@yahoo.com.

(Copyright 2009 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
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dextrous

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2009, 05:53:37 AM »
It is most likely true that the army is not equiped from surgical strikes
however
this article uses no real sources
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 12:40:29 PM »
India is working on the concept of Cold Start......................akin to surgical strikes. They have done the ground work...........I read a very good research document somewhere...I shall give the link after sometimes......
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flute

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 03:35:05 PM »
It is most likely true that the army is not equiped from surgical strikes
however
this article uses no real sources
Asia times articles are usually like that..without sources..these are mostly based on former intelligence ,military ,political sources, take it or leave it. I tend to note things mentioned without believing or not believing, unless I see similar reports elsewhere. In this instance, I think army bad state regarding ammunition is accurate and most probably military was not ready for surgical strikes. other gloomy things said regarding army might be far fetched.
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 04:17:52 PM »
India is working on the concept of Cold Start......................akin to surgical strikes. They have done the ground work...........I read a very good research document somewhere...I shall give the link after sometimes......


This is the link to the long-paper on Cold start....
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3203_pp158-190.pdf
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 04:27:44 PM by Blwe_torch »
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flute

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 04:44:55 PM »
India is working on the concept of Cold Start......................akin to surgical strikes. They have done the ground work...........I read a very good research document somewhere...I shall give the link after sometimes......


This is the link to the long-paper on Cold start....
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3203_pp158-190.pdf

but this is 2004 doctrine, do you think we were never able to operationalize this cold start strategy? our weak army is cause for concern.
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kban1

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2009, 05:29:20 PM »
India is working on the concept of Cold Start......................akin to surgical strikes. They have done the ground work...........I read a very good research document somewhere...I shall give the link after sometimes......


This is the link to the long-paper on Cold start....
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3203_pp158-190.pdf

but this is 2004 doctrine, do you think we were never able to operationalize this cold start strategy? our weak army is cause for concern.


if you read the paper, which is based on information as of 2007, it indicates that total operationality of Cold Start has not been accomplished. And also lays out the significant amount of groundwork that needs to be done as well as the possible pitfalls of such a strategy
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flute

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 05:32:52 PM »
India is working on the concept of Cold Start......................akin to surgical strikes. They have done the ground work...........I read a very good research document somewhere...I shall give the link after sometimes......


This is the link to the long-paper on Cold start....
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3203_pp158-190.pdf

but this is 2004 doctrine, do you think we were never able to operationalize this cold start strategy? our weak army is cause for concern.


if you read the paper, which is based on information as of 2007, it indicates that total operationality of Cold Start has not been accomplished. And also lays out the significant amount of groundwork that needs to be done as well as the possible pitfalls of such a strategy

yep, I did read thru the paper. My point was, this is not something we are trying to do in response to mumbai attacks. we been working on it sometime now and still army apparently was not ready for limited strikes after the mumbai attacks. Really depressing. If we had the capability and our political leadership refused to deployed it, that is one thing, if we simply lack the power to strike, it is really depressing. I don't know how true, but paper also talks about India's inability to sustain even a conventional war for more than 2 weeks.
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dextrous

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 05:42:29 PM »
India is working on the concept of Cold Start......................akin to surgical strikes. They have done the ground work...........I read a very good research document somewhere...I shall give the link after sometimes......


This is the link to the long-paper on Cold start....
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3203_pp158-190.pdf

but this is 2004 doctrine, do you think we were never able to operationalize this cold start strategy? our weak army is cause for concern.


if you read the paper, which is based on information as of 2007, it indicates that total operationality of Cold Start has not been accomplished. And also lays out the significant amount of groundwork that needs to be done as well as the possible pitfalls of such a strategy

yep, I did read thru the paper. My point was, this is not something we are trying to do in response to mumbai attacks. we been working on it sometime now and still army apparently was not ready for limited strikes after the mumbai attacks. Really depressing. If we had the capability and our political leadership refused to deployed it, that is one thing, if we simply lack the power to strike, it is really depressing. I don't know how true, but paper also talks about India's inability to sustain even a conventional war for more than 2 weeks.
Well, a surgical strike in pok will not be led by the army. The Air Force will spearhead the attacks while the navy (one area where we're not great but have a huge advantage over Pakistan) would distract them on the western side. The Indian air-force may not have an obvious advantage in the aircrafts we fly but we have an advantage in the quality of training that the pilots get (the last war being a good example where repeatedly American made jets were taken down). Similarly, it is no open secret that this government has not invested enough in the army or approved new equipment, however, it is a highly unlikely scenario that Pakistan would have a man-to-man advantage in this scenario still. Further, most importantly, it'd be the fighter jets that should have launched the surprise attacks just days after the attack.
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flute

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 06:12:35 PM »
India is working on the concept of Cold Start......................akin to surgical strikes. They have done the ground work...........I read a very good research document somewhere...I shall give the link after sometimes......


This is the link to the long-paper on Cold start....
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3203_pp158-190.pdf

but this is 2004 doctrine, do you think we were never able to operationalize this cold start strategy? our weak army is cause for concern.


if you read the paper, which is based on information as of 2007, it indicates that total operationality of Cold Start has not been accomplished. And also lays out the significant amount of groundwork that needs to be done as well as the possible pitfalls of such a strategy

yep, I did read thru the paper. My point was, this is not something we are trying to do in response to mumbai attacks. we been working on it sometime now and still army apparently was not ready for limited strikes after the mumbai attacks. Really depressing. If we had the capability and our political leadership refused to deployed it, that is one thing, if we simply lack the power to strike, it is really depressing. I don't know how true, but paper also talks about India's inability to sustain even a conventional war for more than 2 weeks.
Well, a surgical strike in pok will not be led by the army. The Air Force will spearhead the attacks while the navy (one area where we're not great but have a huge advantage over Pakistan) would distract them on the western side. The Indian air-force may not have an obvious advantage in the aircrafts we fly but we have an advantage in the quality of training that the pilots get (the last war being a good example where repeatedly American made jets were taken down). Similarly, it is no open secret that this government has not invested enough in the army or approved new equipment, however, it is a highly unlikely scenario that Pakistan would have a man-to-man advantage in this scenario still. Further, most importantly, it'd be the fighter jets that should have launched the surprise attacks just days after the attack.

I am ware of the issues mentioned, but my concern and assumption was that we are vastly superior in conventional war power and sadly that assumption seems to be increasingly misplaced. We might be able to win a conventional war but not in a convincing manner. If this new assessment is true, I will say, kick out congress. For centuries, India's problem has always been security, after every external attack on India from khyber pass, Indians will assimilate and generate wealth , only to be plundered again by new wave of attacks. Security is paramount for India's survival. Any party which lets our defense forces rot without ammunition or armour should not be allowed anywhere near govt.
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 01:54:40 AM »
Cold Start was taken up after the failure of India's Op Parakram.....after 2001 Parliament attack......this is a fairly recent document.
The Army has ironed out much of the technical staff........only the coordination with the Air Force issue is pending...and also modernization of the equipment...............not to mention the issue of coordinating with our bumbling politicos.
Actually, India's Army is conventionally much superior to Pak..............but not strong enough...in tandem with our Govt to control the entire fall-out.........not to mention the Nuclear fall-out. Army is preparing even for the later scenario.
But what happens......if Indian Army goes on an occupies territory in Pak...and the militants run amok in India?
At the moment we are suffering from poor equipment....and a huge modernization is due.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 02:06:01 AM by Blwe_torch »
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keep-it-cool

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 04:07:31 AM »
Incidentally, I highlighted this fact immediately after the Mumbai attacks to WN, who was of the view that India can just walk over Pakistan in an armed conflict.

However, it is not easy to assign blame (if you want to) for our state of preparation for surgical strikes and / or a conventional war with Pakistan. This is one issue on which I am unwilling to blame any political party in so far as their focus on the armed forces is concerned. The reasons for our inability lie elswhere:

a) our army is spread too thin: while we all talk about the issues on the india-pak and the india-china border, one should also remember that the army is called on to counter insurgency and terrorism within various states as well. i have a very close relative in the army who was posted in mhou ..he says the situation on the ground there would make kashmir look like kindergarten. The North East takes a lot away in terms of manpower and funds from our army and we just cannot afford to move away from there to one border. Till the local police force is improved on, this situation will not change.

b) recruitment is a nightmare - the army just does not get enough good people and this trend has been alarming of late. It is all very well to sit on our desktops or laptops and say that they should do this, do that ...but how many families are in favour of their children joining the army? No amount of increase in pay etc will change that. We need to do something about this but it is not easy to arrive at a solution.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 04:09:05 AM by keep-it-cool »
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dextrous

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 05:28:24 AM »
Incidentally, I highlighted this fact immediately after the Mumbai attacks to WN, who was of the view that India can just walk over Pakistan in an armed conflict.

However, it is not easy to assign blame (if you want to) for our state of preparation for surgical strikes and / or a conventional war with Pakistan. This is one issue on which I am unwilling to blame any political party in so far as their focus on the armed forces is concerned. The reasons for our inability lie elswhere:

a) our army is spread too thin: while we all talk about the issues on the india-pak and the india-china border, one should also remember that the army is called on to counter insurgency and terrorism within various states as well. i have a very close relative in the army who was posted in mhou ..he says the situation on the ground there would make kashmir look like kindergarten. The North East takes a lot away in terms of manpower and funds from our army and we just cannot afford to move away from there to one border. Till the local police force is improved on, this situation will not change.

b) recruitment is a nightmare - the army just does not get enough good people and this trend has been alarming of late. It is all very well to sit on our desktops or laptops and say that they should do this, do that ...but how many families are in favour of their children joining the army? No amount of increase in pay etc will change that. We need to do something about this but it is not easy to arrive at a solution.

How can you not blame particular political parties for this? Both of your points are very true--poor recruitment leading to the Army being spread too thing. And why is this? Well, somewhere money has to be spent on the Army in order to pay better and buy better goods. That does not happen with the current government's GDP assignment to defense. We don't need to spend (%) as much as Pakistan does but need to at least match what most democracies do, which is around 4%-6%.
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vincent

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 08:49:19 AM »
And on top of everything we have this problem.......

--------------------------------------------------

Indian soldier 'kills colleagues'

By Subir Bhaumik
BBC News, Calcutta 


A soldier of India's elite paramilitary force, the Assam Rifles, has shot dead six of his colleagues, a spokesman for the force said.

Major Shamsher Jung said the incident happened at a remote camp of the force in the Ukhrul district in India's north-eastern state of Manipur.

The soldier, TS Tangkhul, fled after shooting his colleagues and his whereabouts are not yet known.

Major Jung said the force has launched a huge manhunt to capture the soldier.

The troops of Assam Rifles were manning a road checkpost at Awang Kasom Khullen in Ukhrul district late on Wednesday when TS Tangkhul got into a heated altercation with another soldier.

Tangkhul, who hails from the area, shot dead his colleague and soon found himself surrounded by five soldiers of the unit who tried to disarm him.

"He opened deadly fire and killed all of them," Major Shamsher Jung said.

Stressed Indian soldiers have often shot their senior officers when denied leave for long periods during tough counter-insurgency operations.

They have also shot colleagues during heated arguments.

An air force sergeant shot dead his superior at Kalaikunda airbase in the state of West Bengal in September last year.

More than 70 officers and men have died in such incidents of killings in the Indian defence forces since 2001.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/7843936.stm
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keep-it-cool

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Re: Indian army ill prepared
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 09:24:44 AM »
Incidentally, I highlighted this fact immediately after the Mumbai attacks to WN, who was of the view that India can just walk over Pakistan in an armed conflict.

However, it is not easy to assign blame (if you want to) for our state of preparation for surgical strikes and / or a conventional war with Pakistan. This is one issue on which I am unwilling to blame any political party in so far as their focus on the armed forces is concerned. The reasons for our inability lie elswhere:

a) our army is spread too thin: while we all talk about the issues on the india-pak and the india-china border, one should also remember that the army is called on to counter insurgency and terrorism within various states as well. i have a very close relative in the army who was posted in mhou ..he says the situation on the ground there would make kashmir look like kindergarten. The North East takes a lot away in terms of manpower and funds from our army and we just cannot afford to move away from there to one border. Till the local police force is improved on, this situation will not change.

b) recruitment is a nightmare - the army just does not get enough good people and this trend has been alarming of late. It is all very well to sit on our desktops or laptops and say that they should do this, do that ...but how many families are in favour of their children joining the army? No amount of increase in pay etc will change that. We need to do something about this but it is not easy to arrive at a solution.

How can you not blame particular political parties for this? Both of your points are very true--poor recruitment leading to the Army being spread too thing. And why is this? Well, somewhere money has to be spent on the Army in order to pay better and buy better goods. That does not happen with the current government's GDP assignment to defense. We don't need to spend (%) as much as Pakistan does but need to at least match what most democracies do, which is around 4%-6%.

I agree we need to spend more. But I do not blame the governments (either this one or the earlier one) for not being able to do so.

Firstly, do we have that flexibility as things stand today? Our fiscal deficit is anyway quite large ..if you add the deficits of the various states, it is scary. We do not tax agriculture, subsidize fuel & fertilizers, waive off farm loans == so, where do we get the money from? I do not think this is a UPA v/s NDA issue but just fyi as to which government has done what, over the last ten years or so, the biggest increase in defence spending came when the current government was at the helm (2004-05). Even if you look at the trend, defence spending grew at c5% CAGR over the NDA govts' reign while it grew at c12% CAGR over the UPA's reign. It is easy to say that governments should ignore some of the social freebies & focus on getting the defence right, but then we as an electorate act in a completely opposite manner when it comes to the polls ... in a way, it is almost as if we have given the govt of the day (whichever side it comes from) a mandate to continue with populism at the cost of measures that may be painful in the short run but necessary all the same. Which is why the only real difference on the defence / security front between the two leading political parties in the country is that of rhetoric & nothing else.

Secondly, all the spending will not work if the army has to be at the beck and call of every state whenever there is any insurgency within. The way the Punjab terrorism issue was tackled by KPS Gill was by enabling & strengthening the local thana. That will leave the army free to focus on what they should be doing most of the time ..i.e. focus on the borders.

I also do not think just paying more will lead to more recruitment in the army. There are enough people out there who are in jobs earning much lower but still do not enlist. There has to be a strong identity with the state (as in country), which I suspect does not come out other than when we have a few incidents ...post that we get back to our narrow regional issues & conflicts.
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