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[hastalavistababy]

Indian democracy unfair to Muslims: Shabana Azmi

NEW DELHI: Although Muslims are safer in this country than in other parts of the world because they have a stake and space in Indian democracy, Indian democracy is unfair to Muslims, says Shabana Azmi, actor and former MP.

In an interview to a private TV channel, Azmi said, "I think there is not enough understanding of the fact that in a democracy how you treat the security of the minority must be a very important part for the success of a democracy. You can't only make token gestures and actually let them be in the state that they are as the Rajinder Sachar Committee report shows. So what happened is token gestures are made but real issues are never addressed."

Shabana Azmi said Indian politics has been unfair to Muslims and despite Indian secularism Muslims are discriminated against.

She said she couldn't buy a house in Mumbai because she was a Muslim. "I wanted to buy a flat in Bombay and it wasn't given to me because I was a Muslim and I read the same about Saif (Ali Khan). Now, I mean, if Javed Akhtar and Shabana Azmi cannot get a flat in Bombay because they are Muslims, then what are we talking about?"

Questioned about the Kashmir violence having a wider communal ramification elsewhere in the country at present, she said, "That's why I am so distressed over what is happening in Kashmir. For heaven's sake it should be brought to a stop and it should have been brought to a stop right when they started that nonsense."

But she agreed that it was the responsibility of the Muslim leadership to change the image of their community. "I don't think that the Muslim leadership has bothered to clear the air about what Islam actually is." 

[cricinfo]

Hard to believe they did not get a flat in mumbai...bad luck ...but dont bring the muslim equation into it

[justforkix]

Shabana Azmi said Indian politics has been unfair to Muslims and despite Indian secularism Muslims are discriminated against.

She said she couldn't buy a house in Mumbai because she was a Muslim. "I wanted to buy a flat in Bombay and it wasn't given to me because I was a Muslim and I read the same about Saif (Ali Khan). Now, I mean, if Javed Akhtar and Shabana Azmi cannot get a flat in Bombay because they are Muslims, then what are we talking about?"

Yeah Right !!! 

[prfsr]

Shabana is a serious person. I would not take her lightly. There are (at least used to be) places in Bangalore (e.g. Malleswaram) where non-Brahmins could not get in. Why is it surprising that some neighborhoods would not let Muslims in?

[cricinfo]

Shabana is a serious person. I would not take her lightly. There are (at least used to be) places in Bangalore (e.g. Malleswaram) where non-Brahmins could not get in. Why is it surprising that some neighborhoods would not let Muslims in?

very good point....so muslims are not treated differently...so she should not only talk about muslim discrimination...this is nothing new in India ....so she should not try to make it an issue

[achutank]

she's right

if you are muslim you can't buy a flat in mumbai. period.

and that's not all.

if you are non-vegetarian you can't buy a flat in a vegetarian building. not even eggs. sorry not allowed.

and if you are a Cafe Shop you cannot sell chicken sandwiches in your Walkeshwar outlet since our Jain brothers will object.

and if you are a muslim single male and your company has transferred you to Mumbai you have to either stay on the street or you will find a flat in a Muslim ghetto or a Slum re-development colony.

now why do you guys get outraged by this I don't know, isn't it natural?
after all in at least 4 years in school the history textbooks teach us about aurangzeb and jinnah

[cricinfo]

"if you are muslim you can't buy a flat in mumbai. period"

- Ok , so now  i know why SRK ended building up a bungalow for himself...poor SRK didnt get the flat

[prfsr]

I think she said "a flat" in the sense of a specific flat as opposed to "could not buy a flat anywhere". Yes she is highlighting the Muslim discrimination and not every other existing one in India. What is wrong with that? Of course a seller can decide who to sell to but decisions like this (not selling because of religion) are more due to neighbors and policy of the neighborhood.

We cannot on the one hand claim that we are completely tolerant of them and then say there should be segregation, right? Sounds a wee bit, a scosh, like the old South Africa or USA. (Not remotely suggesting that we are like SA or USA, just criticizing the thought process).

[teamindia]

I am not aware of any law which can prevent a muslim to buy a flat. It could be a builder or housing society or neighbors. If it is one of them, they can be easily challenged in court by Shabana/Saif, questioning India's democracy for this is ridiculous, I think.

[prfsr]

I am not aware of any law which can prevent a muslim to buy a flat. It could be a builder or housing society or neighbors. If it is one of them, they can be easily challenged in court by Shabana/Saif, questioning India's democracy for this is ridiculous, I think.

Yes and casteism is also illegal. Yet not many people sue landlords in parts where you cannot buy a house if you are not a Brahmin. Suing is not easy, convenient or cheap and the result is useless.

The point she makes is that in a democracy it is very easy to trample all over minorities (in very general senses of the word). The getting a house issue was mentioned as an unexpected example of the more general problem -- not in the sense of "I could not buy a house and so I think Indian democracy is faulty".
The northeast got some attention from the rest of India only after they started violent  secessionist movements. So we do have problems and while hers may or may not be exaggerated, I think her story deserves serious consideration. And I say this with her activism history and her commitment to "art movies" in mind.

[Cover Point]

I think it is an exaggeration to say that Saif or she could not buy a flat in Mumbai.

Yes an average muslim may have trouble ... and that is true the world over ... the reputation of Muslims being involved in terrorism etc precedes them. Not that it is right  but it is a fact of life.

BUT in India where SRK is revered to say that a movies star could not find a flat is exaggeration of the kind only Gangulians are known for (Goal of getting Ganguly or Gangulian in any conversation complete)

[prfsr]

I think it is an exaggeration to say that Saif or she could not buy a flat in Mumbai.

Sir I think it is "a flat" as in one specific flat. Someone did not sell to her because she was a Muslim - that is what she is saying. Not that she is homeless or renting

[teamindia]

Yes and casteism is also illegal. Yet not many people sue landlords in parts where you cannot buy a house if you are not a Brahmin. Suing is not easy, convenient or cheap and the result is useless.

Agree. But that is another issue. It is not easy and cheap but that is the only way to resolve such issues.

The point she makes is that in a democracy it is very easy to trample all over minorities (in very general senses of the word).

Would it be any better in autocracy (for example Pak under Musharraf)?

The getting a house issue was mentioned as an unexpected example of the more general problem -- not in the sense of "I could not buy a house and so I think Indian democracy is faulty".
The northeast got some attention from the rest of India only after they started violent  secessionist movements. So we do have problems and while hers may or may not be exaggerated, I think her story deserves serious consideration. And I say this with her activism history and her commitment to "art movies" in mind.

Yes, our democracy may have some flaws but she could have made her point without bringing muslim angle to it. As you said not only muslims but other minorities and I would add majority too suffer from such issues. What if someone from a majority is denied to buy a flat somewhere for whatever reason?
 

[Cover Point]

I think it is an exaggeration to say that Saif or she could not buy a flat in Mumbai.

Sir I think it is "a flat" as in one specific flat. Someone did not sell to her because she was a Muslim - that is what she is saying. Not that she is homeless or renting

and what i am saying is that it is very hard to imagine Saif or Shabana could not rent any flat. A random muslim may be discriminated against. But not these stars.

She probably had to go hunting to find THAT type of a person who would not even rent to Saif or her.

[Libran]

Before we get down to defending Shaban Azmi , the holier than thou cow... can someone update the DG on the status of minorities in Pakistan...no I am not even referring to the miniscule %age of Hindus like Danish Kaneria or Anil Dalpat... what about the Christians, the NWFP population etc.,

Shabana may be playing the typical "I am hurt" card...but, we as a nation have been more than patronizing... have we ever heard of another country in the sub continent putting the so-called 'minority" in top positions in the Parliament, Ministries, Civil Service ... right from Dr Zakir Hussain to Abdul Kalam...

Is there a mandatory profiling?

Ms Azmi may not have got a flat because she could probably not afford it ..period

[prfsr]

Before we get down to defending Shaban Azmi , the holier than thou cow... can someone update the DG on teh status of minorities in Pakistan...no I am not even referring to the miniscule %age of Hindus like Danish Kaneria or Anil Dalpat... what about the Christians, the NWFP population etc.,

Shabana may be playing the typical "I am hurt" card...but, we as a nation have been more than patronizing... have we ever heard of another country in the sub continent putting the so-called 'minority" in top positions in the Parliament, Ministries, Civil Service ... right from Dr Zakir Hussain to Abdul Kalam...

Is there a mandatory profiling?

Ms Azmi may not have got a flat because she could probably afford it ..period

Ravi,
Why this reaction? Have we set our standards so low that we need to be just better than Pakistan and no more?

IMO the govt has done a lot for vote-gathering, a lot of it unfair even, but that does not mean that
(a) we support them -- most Hindus strongly disapprove of these measures.
(b) we hasve become completely accepting at a social level

Shabana is an activist for her community. I do not think she has talked about mandatory profiling, rather that it still exists in places and we would be better off without it. That last part is the part I agree with.

I think we have a rightful and very commendable claim to being a true secular, liberal democratic nation with our women and minority leaders - just mention these facts to an American and see their face! Why should we then be dismissive of serious people like Shabana?  That is what our neighbors do. As is the statement (not made in this thread): if you do not like it go to another country.

[Libran]

Before we get down to defending Shaban Azmi , the holier than thou cow... can someone update the DG on teh status of minorities in Pakistan...no I am not even referring to the miniscule %age of Hindus like Danish Kaneria or Anil Dalpat... what about the Christians, the NWFP population etc.,

Shabana may be playing the typical "I am hurt" card...but, we as a nation have been more than patronizing... have we ever heard of another country in the sub continent putting the so-called 'minority" in top positions in the Parliament, Ministries, Civil Service ... right from Dr Zakir Hussain to Abdul Kalam...

Is there a mandatory profiling?

Ms Azmi may not have got a flat because she could probably afford it ..period

Ravi,
Why this reaction? Have we set our standards so low that we need to be just better than Pakistan and no more?

IMO the govt has done a lot for vote-gathering, a lot of it unfair even, but that does not mean that
(a) we support them -- most Hindus strongly disapprove of these measures.
(b) we hasve become completely accepting at a social level

Shabana is an activist for her community. I do not think she has talked about mandatory profiling, rather that it still exists in places and we would be better off without it. That last part is the part I agree with.

I think we have a rightful and very commendable claim to being a true secular, liberal democratic nation with our women and minority leaders - just mention these facts to an American and see their face! Why should we then be dismissive of serious people like Shabana?  That is what our neighbors do. As is the statement (not made in this thread): if you do not like it go to another country.

prfsr...my comments may have been a bit on the extreme side..but the truth of the matter is that I see Ms Azmi in no different light from the Mulayams and the Mayawatis...
She seems to be keen on taking up the Muslim cause at the drop of a hat...and has been a supporter of the Congress who are the ones responsible for this communal divide and this unwarranted appeasement. 

I have not seen her making forceful statements on the Mumabi blasts or the SIMI involvement but was seen in the forefront of Gujarat and Modi criticism. Double standards loud and clear...

All I want to understand is after 61 years of independence, why should any community seek special status? Have not enough opportunities been provided...how much of that has been used...how much abused...
If one thinks that they have not been treated properly, please take it up with the party you support...who else knows better on why the appeasement was made in the first place and why it continues.

I am not asking anyone to leave this country..it is as much theirs as mine.. more theirs because of the longer time they have spent.. but, it does help to look around and see that the very people whose cause she espouses are having the cake and eating it as well in good 'ol India

[prfsr]

I am sure nobody thinks Shabana is not representing/being an activist for Muslims. That is fine. In a democracy people choose causes to champion. When a MP from Bengal asks for more aid for Bengal, are they being anti-national? Or should they say "Mizoram needs it more, cut aid from Bengal and give it to them"?

I think Shabana says bias exists at social levels. I would take that part at face value and try to educate people more.  In my ancestral village for example, there is complete segregation. There are Muslim villages nearby. There is also considerable harmony in the sense there have been no riots since 1947 and even in 47 there were relatively minor incidents. So we do not have a major peoblem there in my opinion.

I would like cities to be more homogeneous. In Kolkata my parents' complex has several Muslim families (it is govt employees complex) and they are not really treated "different". My parents have gone to Muslim weddings and they typically make separate eating arrangements for Hindus since they serve beef for Muslims. My in-laws' complex has a famous musician ustad who lives and teaches there. Is that not how it should be?

[Libran]

Letters to the Editor...from The Hindu dated 19th Aug 2008 ...pertinent to note "the divide" ....


Muslims in India

Actor-turned-social activist Shabana Azmi has claimed in an interview that she has been unable to buy a flat in Mumbai, like actor Saif Ali Khan, because she is a Muslim. Such an observation has come not from a fanatic or fundamentalist but from a five-time National Film Award winner. She is right in pointing out that our politicians promote a stereotypical image of the Muslim community and do not allow moderate Muslim voices to be heard. One fails to understand why she did not mention the media.

M. Haneef,
Kottayam


* * *

It is disheartening to hear that Ms Azmi is not able to buy a house in Mumbai because she is a Muslim. Very often, our leaders give a call to Muslims to join the mainstream. If Shabana’s case is any indication, one can understand how difficult it is even for a moderate Muslim to join the mainstream. But for the fair and unbiased report of the Rajinder Sachar Committee, the truth about the plight of Muslims would not have come to light. How can one say India is progressing when millions, including the minorities, are neglected? The more their due in the polity is denied, the more their alienation will be.

M.A. Hakeem,
Hyderabad


* * *

Ms Azmi’s remark that the Indian polity has been unfair to Muslims is uncharitable. Ms Azmi is the recipient of many government honours. India has had four Muslim Presidents. Many Muslims serve as Ministers and occupy high offices. Bollywood is dominated by the three Khans. Remarks like the ones made by Ms Azmi only serve to widen the social divide.

K.P.R. Iyer,
Bangalore


* * *

Ms Azmi made no mention of Muslim women who have been discriminated against in the name of religion in Independent India. How come she did not point a finger at the clergy who issued a fatwa against a rape victim? She should set her house in order before accusing fellow Indians.

V.S. Ramachandra,
Visakhapatnam


* * *

The actor’s comments were uncalled for. Many Indian Muslims, including her, have risen to great heights because of the secular and liberal policies followed by the country. Her comments are ill-timed and come at a time when the country is passing through a turbulent period and the Amarnath Shrine Board row is threatening to divide the people on communal and sectarian lines.

V. Padmanabhan,
Bangalore


* * *

Ms Azmi, who claims she has been brought up in a liberal family, has shocked us by saying Muslims are discriminated against in India. If the Indian polity is unfair, how is it that the film industry is dominated by Muslims?

G. Swaminathan,
Chennai

http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/19/stories/2008081955270801.htm

[achutank]

ravi interesting point on why protest against modi and not against simi.

this is the question that comes to my mind?

is the crime perpetuated by Modi which is genocide greater than the one perpetuated by SIMI which is terrorism?
i would really like people's views on this for myself i am confused

[Libran]

ravi interesting point on why protest against modi and not against simi.

this is the question that comes to my mind?

is the crime perpetuated by Modi which is genocide greater than the one perpetuated by SIMI which is terrorism?
i would really like people's views on this for myself i am confused

I know the smart alec answer...

How can you protest over something that has been banned.. 

The truth is ...it is difficult to stand up and speak against the community though the miniscule few are bringing a bad name to the community as a whole...people who hit , run and hide...the cowards of the country.

It takes a lot of courage to speak up against ones community which the 'majority' community does ever so often with or without any cause for action... lack of self respect, righteousness or appeasement ... I have no clue

[teamindia]

How can you protest over something that has been banned.. 

but didn't the some high court judge lift ban on SIMI last month? Where is that thread? Now the SIMI involvement into Ahmedabad blast is clear, it would be interesting to re-look that SIMI thread. I remember some DGian passionately supported the SIMI ban-lift in that thread.

[Libran]

How can you protest over something that has been banned.. 

but didn't the some high court judge lift ban on SIMI last month? Where is that thread? Now the SIMI involvement into Ahmedabad blast is clear, it would be interesting to re-look that SIMI thread. I remember some DGian passionately supported the SIMI ban-lift in that thread.

Supreme Court clamped it back ...

[prfsr]

How can you protest over something that has been banned.. 

but didn't the some high court judge lift ban on SIMI last month? Where is that thread? Now the SIMI involvement into Ahmedabad blast is clear, it would be interesting to re-look that SIMI thread. I remember some DGian passionately supported the SIMI ban-lift in that thread.

Really? I was one of contributors and do not recall anyone doing that. Flute and high did support a judge's right to enforce the law, as much as the higher court's right to do so and possibly overrule this court.