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[Cernunnos]

Since it's generally agreed that the slide in Indian cricket started with the Aus 2004 tour, let's see
how our seniors have been performing since then (ignoring Zim):

1. RD 27 tests, avg: 53.60
2. VS 27 tests, avg: 46.71
3. SRT 21 tests, avg: 39.93
4. SG 16 tests, avg: 33.27
5. VVS 25 tests, avg: 31.83
6. YS 13 tests, avg: 29.88

As we can see, the Numbers 1 - 3 have contributed something, so they stay.
Number 4 has a marginal case, but he has already paid for his crimes. He has come back as
the highest averaging batsman in the last series. His case will be reviewed after the next series.
Number 6 has been hampered by injury, and has youth on his side, so he stays.

What remains is Number 5: VVS.

What excuse does VVS ? He doesn't play a single ODI, nor has he ever had to take the burden of captaincy. He has all the time in the world to look after his game. Yet all he returns with is a paltry 31 runs an innings. Plus no contribution as a bowler.

If ever the Board was serious to bring in fresh talent, it should throw VVS out of the test team and give a long rope to a very prospective candidate. He can certainly do better than 31 if he's given 25 tests.

[sgusa]

DG paging Rams, Rams to the DG. Paging Rams.....

[indcric]

How many match winning knocks has VVS played? and how many match winning knocks SG has played?

Drop SRT, SG. Period. VVS also has age on his side at least for 2 more years, more than that the artistry. What do we watch cricket for? It is for enjoyment.

[fineleg]

DG paging Rams, Rams to the DG. Paging Rams.....

I don't think Rams will waste his time on a thread, which is created with an explicit intention to just attack VVS.
He may know better.

Seriously, folks like #1 SG and #2 SRT should be thrown into (where does MT want it?  Bay of Bengal) before we get to VVS in Tests.

[ramshorns]

DG paging Rams, Rams to the DG. Paging Rams.....

Thanks SGUSA, you have woken me for this? Come on you know better.

[fineleg]

DG paging Rams, Rams to the DG. Paging Rams.....

Thanks SGUSA, you have woken me for this? Come on you know better.

Hehe...Sgusa,see... I knew Rams better
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=9736.msg123064#msg123064

[ramshorns]

DG paging Rams, Rams to the DG. Paging Rams.....

I don't think Rams will waste his time on a thread, which is created with an explicit intention to just attack VVS.
He may know better.

Seriously, folks like #1 SG and #2 SRT should be thrown into (where does MT want it?  Bay of Bengal) before we get to VVS in Tests.

Bingo.......I have business to take care of.....FL knows it.......

The famous WC debacle led none other than our former skipper whose captaincy's glory all revolved around VVS's famous knocks, 281 a win in Kolkata, 148 in Adelaide a Win again(complemented RD very well), 2 70's in Port of Spain another win again,   What did the former skipper himself contribute in those games, not much?? Except for chew off some of his own nails

Anyway's an interesting topic for another day but we need to get back to the disgrace in the name of WC represented by none other than our esteemed former skipper and others.

[fineleg]

DG paging Rams, Rams to the DG. Paging Rams.....

I don't think Rams will waste his time on a thread, which is created with an explicit intention to just attack VVS.
He may know better.

Seriously, folks like #1 SG and #2 SRT should be thrown into (where does MT want it?  Bay of Bengal) before we get to VVS in Tests.

Bingo.......I have business to take care of.....FL knows it.......

The famous WC debacle led none other than our former skipper whose captaincy's glory all revolved around VVS's famous knocks, 281 a win in Kolkata, 148 in Adelaide a Win again(complemented RD very well), 2 70's in Port of Spain another win again,   What did the former skipper himself contribute in those games, not much?? Except for chew off some of his own nails
Anyway's an interesting topic for another day but we need to get back to the disgrace in the name of WC represented by none other than our esteemed former skipper and others.

ROFL at above!!! That he does best Rams!

You are right...SG & SRT - Superstars who fail us when the clutch and crunch situations bite.

[sgusa]

I see that my paging system works. Now let us try this..

SGUSA paging Adriana Lima, Adriana Lima to SGUSA, paging Adriana Lima...

[suraj]

Is this a serious thread??

[fineleg]

I see that my paging system works. Now let us try this..

SGUSA paging Adriana Lima, Adriana Lima to SGUSA, paging Adriana Lima...

Just now in other thread I had mentioned dex gives you IMMENSE PLEASURE...now u want Lima?

[fineleg]

Is this a serious thread??

1 

Before Ceru gets angry with me. Let me clarify: I respect Ceru and many of his posts. Despite the fact that we may disagree abt SG. Infact, I don't think Ceru and I have had replies to each other in a long while.

Let whoever wants to continue this VVS discussion do so. But IMO - my answers are that SG and SRT out first.

[sgusa]

Is this a serious thread??

1 

Kaif.

[colonel]

With you and I participating Suraj, how could it be a serious thread?

But interestingly, our former skipper who ended up with one of the better performances among an admittedly poor showing is now being hailed as one of the culprits of the debacle. More interestingly, this is because he failed by his own lofty standards....which never existed!

I completely disagree with Cernunnos - drop SG.

[indcric]

After 2004 Pak in Pak tour, the slide of Indian cricket started, not after Aus in Aus tour.

BD defeated us in ODIs, but BD was (is?) still a minnow in Test Cricket, when we toured them.

So here are the stats (after removing BD, Zim & 2004 Pak in Pak). VVS doing as much as SRT & SG, if not better with 2 match winning/saving hundreds.

         Runs     Inns   100 50     Avg
VVS --1105 -- 34 --   2    8 -- 32.5
SRT -- 914 --  29 --   1    6 -- 31.5
SG --  573 --  24 --    0    3 -- 28.7

Without all these stats, we can clearly say SRT & SG need to be booted, at least in Tests, NOW.

[fineleg]

After 2004 Pak in Pak tour, the slide of Indian cricket started, not after Aus in Aus tour.

BD defeated us in ODIs, but BD was (is?) still a minnow in Test Cricket, when we toured them.

So here are the stats (after removing BD, Zim & 2004 Pak in Pak). VVS doing as much as SRT & SG, if not better with 2 match winning hundreds.

         Runs     Inns   100 50     Avg
VVS --1105 -- 34 --   2    8 -- 32.5
SRT -- 914 --  29 --   1    6 -- 31.5
SG --  573 --  24 --    0    3 -- 28.7

Without all these stats, we can clearly say SRT & SG need to be booted, at least in Tests, NOW.

I am bored to look up stats. But thanx for that.

[Vick]

After 2004 Pak in Pak tour, the slide of Indian cricket started, not after Aus in Aus tour.

BD defeated us in ODIs, but BD was (is?) still a minnow in Test Cricket, when we toured them.

So here are the stats (after removing BD, Zim & 2004 Pak in Pak). VVS doing as much as SRT & SG, if not better with 2 match winning/saving hundreds.

         Runs     Inns   100 50     Avg
VVS --1105 -- 34 --   2    8 -- 32.5
SRT -- 914 --  29 --   1    6 -- 31.5
SG --  573 --  24 --    0    3 -- 28.7

Without all these stats, we can clearly say SRT & SG need to be booted, at least in Tests, NOW.

but didnt we booted SG for a year already? And wasnt he top scorer in last series? I think its now turn of SRT and VVS to sit out for some time and sort things out. And sure we all know VVS has WON us games in the past but dont we talk about present all the time on this board? These days he is scoring like kaif in domestic too.

[ramshorns]

After 2004 Pak in Pak tour, the slide of Indian cricket started, not after Aus in Aus tour.

BD defeated us in ODIs, but BD was (is?) still a minnow in Test Cricket, when we toured them.

So here are the stats (after removing BD, Zim & 2004 Pak in Pak). VVS doing as much as SRT & SG, if not better with 2 match winning/saving hundreds.

         Runs     Inns   100 50     Avg
VVS --1105 -- 34 --   2    8 -- 32.5
SRT -- 914 --  29 --   1    6 -- 31.5
SG --  573 --  24 --    0    3 -- 28.7

Without all these stats, we can clearly say SRT & SG need to be booted, at least in Tests, NOW.

but didnt we booted SG for a year already? And wasnt he top scorer in last series? I think its now turn of SRT and VVS to sit out for some time and sort things out. And sure we all know VVS has WON us games in the past but dont we talk about present all the time on this board? These days he is scoring like kaif in domestic too.

There is no such rule of someone has to sit now because someone else sat before. 

Let us first see dissect the WC in which our great paper hero's laid an egg and home while BD is still playing.

But I think the purpose of this thread is to deflect off of the WC debacle.

Anyway Applause to Indcric for the lookup and the merits in the post.

[Cernunnos]

After 2004 Pak in Pak tour, the slide of Indian cricket started, not after Aus in Aus tour.

BD defeated us in ODIs, but BD was (is?) still a minnow in Test Cricket, when we toured them.

So here are the stats (after removing BD, Zim & 2004 Pak in Pak). VVS doing as much as SRT & SG, if not better with 2 match winning/saving hundreds.

         Runs     Inns   100 50     Avg
VVS --1105 -- 34 --   2    8 -- 32.5
SRT -- 914 --  29 --   1    6 -- 31.5
SG --  573 --  24 --    0    3 -- 28.7

Without all these stats, we can clearly say SRT & SG need to be booted, at least in Tests, NOW.

but didnt we booted SG for a year already? And wasnt he top scorer in last series? I think its now turn of SRT and VVS to sit out for some time and sort things out. And sure we all know VVS has WON us games in the past but dont we talk about present all the time on this board? These days he is scoring like kaif in domestic too.

Thanks Vick. I am just enjoying the reactions of VVS fanatics.
I have already talked about SG in my first post itself, so I am clear about that.

So far the defences for VVS are:

1. This thread is not to be taken too seriously.
2. VVS is an artist, so he cannot be dropped.
3. 281 is a lifetime insurance for VVS.
4. They will attack those who made runs against BD, conveniently purging VVS'
failure against BD from his record.
5. He is young!

The bottomline is - we have tolerated a person averaging 31 for the last 25 tests (3 years) in the prime of his career. This is totally unacceptable. I personally like VVS, but it's time to give him a jolt.

People talk about how Indians are too easily satisfied with "mediocrity". Yet, when shown an average of 31 in the last 25 tests, these same people will come up with comical arguments like the ones above.
 

[ramshorns]

After 2004 Pak in Pak tour, the slide of Indian cricket started, not after Aus in Aus tour.

BD defeated us in ODIs, but BD was (is?) still a minnow in Test Cricket, when we toured them.

So here are the stats (after removing BD, Zim & 2004 Pak in Pak). VVS doing as much as SRT & SG, if not better with 2 match winning/saving hundreds.

         Runs     Inns   100 50     Avg
VVS --1105 -- 34 --   2    8 -- 32.5
SRT -- 914 --  29 --   1    6 -- 31.5
SG --  573 --  24 --    0    3 -- 28.7

Without all these stats, we can clearly say SRT & SG need to be booted, at least in Tests, NOW.

but didnt we booted SG for a year already? And wasnt he top scorer in last series? I think its now turn of SRT and VVS to sit out for some time and sort things out. And sure we all know VVS has WON us games in the past but dont we talk about present all the time on this board? These days he is scoring like kaif in domestic too.

Thanks Vick. I am just enjoying the reactions of VVS fanatics.
I have already talked about SG in my first post itself, so I am clear about that.

So far the defences for VVS are:

1. This thread is not to be taken too seriously.
2. VVS is an artist, so he cannot be dropped.
3. 281 is a lifetime insurance for VVS.
4. They will attack those who made runs against BD, conveniently purging VVS'
failure against BD from his record.
5. He is young!

The bottomline is - we have tolerated a person averaging 31 for the last 25 tests (3 years) in the prime of his career. This is totally unacceptable. I personally like VVS, but it's time to give him a jolt.

People talk about how Indians are too easily satisfied with "mediocrity". Yet, when shown an average of 31 in the last 25 tests, these same people will come up with comical arguments like the ones above.
 

This coming from one of the biggest SG fanatics who would go to any extent to fudge stats to show their GOD in good stead.

Talk about calling others fanatics.

Way to go.

[Cernunnos]

After 2004 Pak in Pak tour, the slide of Indian cricket started, not after Aus in Aus tour.

BD defeated us in ODIs, but BD was (is?) still a minnow in Test Cricket, when we toured them.

So here are the stats (after removing BD, Zim & 2004 Pak in Pak). VVS doing as much as SRT & SG, if not better with 2 match winning/saving hundreds.

         Runs     Inns   100 50     Avg
VVS --1105 -- 34 --   2    8 -- 32.5
SRT -- 914 --  29 --   1    6 -- 31.5
SG --  573 --  24 --    0    3 -- 28.7

Without all these stats, we can clearly say SRT & SG need to be booted, at least in Tests, NOW.

but didnt we booted SG for a year already? And wasnt he top scorer in last series? I think its now turn of SRT and VVS to sit out for some time and sort things out. And sure we all know VVS has WON us games in the past but dont we talk about present all the time on this board? These days he is scoring like kaif in domestic too.

Thanks Vick. I am just enjoying the reactions of VVS fanatics.
I have already talked about SG in my first post itself, so I am clear about that.

So far the defences for VVS are:

1. This thread is not to be taken too seriously.
2. VVS is an artist, so he cannot be dropped.
3. 281 is a lifetime insurance for VVS.
4. They will attack those who made runs against BD, conveniently purging VVS'
failure against BD from his record.
5. He is young!

The bottomline is - we have tolerated a person averaging 31 for the last 25 tests (3 years) in the prime of his career. This is totally unacceptable. I personally like VVS, but it's time to give him a jolt.

People talk about how Indians are too easily satisfied with "mediocrity". Yet, when shown an average of 31 in the last 25 tests, these same people will come up with comical arguments like the ones above.
 

This coming from one of the biggest SG fanatics

I don't mind being called an SG fanatic.

who would go to any extent to fudge stats to show their GOD in good stead.

Show me one stat I have posted here which I've falsified.

Talk about calling others fanatics.

Way to go.

[ramshorns]

OK I meant presenting stats the way you deem fit.  Should not have used the word fudge.  Take that back.

Let us move on with this.

[Cernunnos]

OK I meant presenting stats the way you deem fit.  Should not have used the word fudge.  Take that back.

Let us move on with this.

My job here is to be provocative. You may not agree with the premises of my stats, but I always try to state it clearly and never knowingly falsify it.

Thanks for taking it back.

[ramshorns]

OK I meant presenting stats the way you deem fit.  Should not have used the word fudge.  Take that back.

Let us move on with this.

My job here is to be provocative. You may not agree with the premises of my stats, but I always try to state it clearly and never knowingly falsify it.

Thanks for taking it back.

I noticed that in you.  No problems there in presenting what you want and stating them clearly.  I think we are cool.

[abhinav]

I seriously now wonder if cricket fans in any other part of the world are as fixated and seduced by 'stats' as we Indians are..even after the fiasco at the WC, we are still working on last 25/30/40/100 innings, we are still talking about games against minnoes/not against minnows.

Do as much statistical analysis as you want, it only goes to prove one thing - Our super stars are tigers on paper, and it is us who make them thus.

Someone mentioned the word life time insurance above, yes, our super stars have got the life time insurances of 15K and 10K runs behind their backs..and they can not be touched. Period.

[fineleg]

I seriously now wonder if cricket fans in any other part of the world are as fixated and seduced by 'stats' as we Indians are..even after the fiasco at the WC, we are still working on last 25/30/40/100 innings, we are still talking about games against minnoes/not against minnows.

Do as much statistical analysis as you want, it only goes to prove one thing - Our super stars are tigers on paper, and it is us who make them thus.

Someone mentioned the word life time insurance above, yes, our super stars have got the life time insurances of 15K and 10K runs behind their backs..and they can not be touched. Period.

Abhi,
We (honchos!) will fight against this insurance. Hope the paper tigers get thrown out of the team.

[rajesh]

Nice post .. A post which is different form the routine of bashings
Except RD, all the seniors need to be booted out in Tests. May be vvs as a junior member could be in the squad for the tours and not in the leven .

[Prafulla]

Unlike many others - VVS 's position in the tem should never be a borderline case. It is great injustice with very special talent. Invariably - he has been most consistent player in crunch situations. His stats might look inferior to SRT / SG - but ask the opposition about the priced wickets. Most opposition captains have focussed more on RD / VVS wickets (I have been inferring this from their press statements).

[arjun]

this talk of throwing out x or y or xyz together is very immature. These are proven talents, and still have steam left. Give this team a good coach and a good captain and you will see the difference.

[Cover Point]

this talk of throwing out x or y or xyz together is very immature. These are proven talents, and still have steam left. Give this team a good coach and a good captain and you will see the difference.

oh so that was all that was wrong with us. And I thought the coach doesnt really play. Our losing has nothing to do with 10K maharathis sulking and playing selfishly.

Fir teer chhoda...

[CLR James]

I am not for booting out anyone from the test squad just yet. Remember, we did reasonably well in SA! Besides, one has to see how people perform in a different mental environment, and preferably under a new leadership. SG made a strong, gritty comeback (unlike SRT, he did not have the luxury of making one in one of his own backyard dustbowls) and topped the aggregates in a challenging overseas tour. And let us be frank, in a series in which people greater than him hopped around, he often looked the most assured.

VVS has not been performing well in the last 25 matches, as Cernu pointed out. However, he too played that crucial matchwinning seventy odd in that same series. I do have a theory about VVS that looks more and more convincing as days go by. He needs a good and condusive leadership environment to flourish. That he found with the JW/SG era. This was his test record between Novermber 2000 and September 2005:

48  3293 281   51.45   7  17   1  1/32   33.00  0  54  0

Of course SG might have missed the odd match in the above list, but it was he who stamped his mark on the environment that existed. Now compare that with the other two phases in VVS's career. Remember, he made his debut way back in 1996. Thereafter he was shunted up and down the order, thrown in and thrown out by a matchfixing, corrupt regime, or an ineffectual SRT led one.

Between 1996, and November 2000, VVS had this to show:

18   816 167   27.20   1   5   0   -       -    0  22  0

That memorable 167 in Sydney was the all out act of a cricketer whose career was about to be over.

Now between September 2005 to the present day, this is how he functioned:

14   769 104   36.61   2   5   -   -       -    -  10  0

Worth his talent? Not at all! Of course, he was faltering towards the end of SG era as well, as was SG's leadership itself, but I think my point is made. Team India itself needs a change of scene. VVS does too. Let us wait and see.

Meanwhile, I have some things to say about the hilarious and grotesque lynch mob mentality that some people here have expressed in this DG pertaining to Ganguly. It can be explained only by a infering a visceral, pathological hatred that some people have towards him. I do believe that SG, along with RD and SRT should be phased out of ODIs in the coming months (and have stated that repeatedly), but tests! What has the man done wrong in the recent past?

First of all, I find it utterly amusing that people not only single out a 129 ball 66 (team score 191), but also amplify it as the SOLE cause of India's debacle. And then there was that 7 against SL, where he was due for a failure in terms of that thing called the law of averages, which afflicted even the great Don Bradman. There he did precisely what many pundits here wanted him to do for the BD match -- hit out or hole out, and let younger, more able people like Dhoni come in and take charge. We know what happened. The point however, is that even if SG had scored a 11 ball 12 in the BD game, he would be damned. SG is perhaps the only cricketer around who has a thread posted in this DG if he scores a second innings duck after hitting a 83 in the first (without any other specialist batsmen shining in either innings).

SG has to be lynched by the pseudo patriots anyhow. Even from the test side! Well if he is consistently scoring big (60 plus average in ODIs after his return), but slow (around 75 SR overall), shouldn't that kind of batting be ideal for test matches? On what cricketing or logical grounds can one demand that a man who topped the aggregates and averages (second to KKD, who played only one game) in the previous test series, and has been scoring regularly in the other form of the game be dropped from the testside? It is not about logic or reason at all. It is about silly and immature pet peeves posed as 'national interest'. The national interest of course, cannot be rationally defined, as I have pointed out above.

As far as the test side is concerned, everyone, including SRT and RD (who had a dismal SA series) deserve to be tried out again in a different, less poisonous leadership environment.

[RicePlateReddy]

First of all, I find it utterly amusing that people not only single out a 129 ball 66 (team score 191), but also amplify it as the SOLE cause of India's debacle. And then there was that 7 against SL, where he was due for a failure in terms of that thing called the law of averages, which afflicted even the great Don Bradman. There he did precisely what many pundits here wanted him to do for the BD match -- hit out or hole out, and let younger, more able people like Dhoni come in and take charge. We know what happened. The point however, is that even if SG had scored a 11 ball 12 in the BD game, he would be damned. SG is perhaps the only cricketer around who has a thread posted in this DG if he scores a second innings duck after hitting a 83 in the first (without any other specialist batsmen shining in either innings).

SG has to be lynched by the pseudo patriots anyhow. Even from the test side! Well if he is consistently scoring big (60 plus average in ODIs after his return), but slow (around 75 SR overall), shouldn't that kind of batting be ideal for test matches? On what cricketing or logical grounds can one demand that a man who topped the aggregates and averages (second to KKD, who played only one game) in the previous test series, and has been scoring regularly in the other form of the game be dropped from the testside? It is not about logic or reason at all. It is about silly and immature pet peeves posed as 'national interest'. The national interest of course, cannot be rationally defined, as I have pointed out above.

CLR, no one will seriously disagree with the assertion that Saurav is perenially under the microscope and micro analyzed more than any other contemporary Indian player.

I will share my thoughts as to why this happens here.

- He is a very passionate fellow who has an aggressive attitude on the field. This induces people to be more agressive in their opinions about him when we lose or he has a poor run.

- He was from his debut in 1996 until 2006, not among the top 2 batsmen in the team in tests. For large periods within, he was not even the third best. And this is vindicated by the stats somewhat. Ganguly's average hovers exactly around 40. In comparison, there are 3 Indian test players with significantly higher averages -- a full 10 points higher. Yet with all this, he was made the captain. This basically does not sit well with many when the team starts losing or puts up lack lustre performances or his form dips. When all three happen concurrently, this becomes severely heightened.

- In ODIs he has not been the sharpest fellow on the field and his running has been poor. Through most of his career however, he was among the top 3 Indian batsmen in ODIs. When he has a poor run, people take the test related baggage described above, compound it with the notable weakness on the field, and gun for him.

- Finally, Saurav is a Bengali. Sports loving as Bengalis are, they have not had as many people graduate to the Indian team, proportional to their media coverage and cricket obssession. So quite naturally and deservedly, he is a proud son of Bengal. With all the points above, when he is criticized and constantly under the scanner, it makes the natural "home support" anyone would expect a little sharper.

This is why I think we see the divide of pro and anti Ganguly camps. His weaknesses make him an easy target when we lose. People who appreciate his value and feel the criticism he is facing is more than normal for a player of his demonstrated ability, start discarding their balance and root for him even more. This causes his critiques to thrust the knife a little deeper and the vicious cycle continues.

Very honestly, I think this is clearly seen on the DG, which is a microcosm of Indian cricketing opinions.

[Vick]

First of all, I find it utterly amusing that people not only single out a 129 ball 66 (team score 191), but also amplify it as the SOLE cause of India's debacle. And then there was that 7 against SL, where he was due for a failure in terms of that thing called the law of averages, which afflicted even the great Don Bradman. There he did precisely what many pundits here wanted him to do for the BD match -- hit out or hole out, and let younger, more able people like Dhoni come in and take charge. We know what happened. The point however, is that even if SG had scored a 11 ball 12 in the BD game, he would be damned. SG is perhaps the only cricketer around who has a thread posted in this DG if he scores a second innings duck after hitting a 83 in the first (without any other specialist batsmen shining in either innings).

SG has to be lynched by the pseudo patriots anyhow. Even from the test side! Well if he is consistently scoring big (60 plus average in ODIs after his return), but slow (around 75 SR overall), shouldn't that kind of batting be ideal for test matches? On what cricketing or logical grounds can one demand that a man who topped the aggregates and averages (second to KKD, who played only one game) in the previous test series, and has been scoring regularly in the other form of the game be dropped from the testside? It is not about logic or reason at all. It is about silly and immature pet peeves posed as 'national interest'. The national interest of course, cannot be rationally defined, as I have pointed out above.

CLR, no one will seriously disagree with the assertion that Saurav is perenially under the microscope and micro analyzed more than any other contemporary Indian player.

I will share my thoughts as to why this happens here.

- He is a very passionate fellow who has an aggressive attitude on the field. This induces people to be more agressive in their opinions about him when we lose or he has a poor run.

- He was from his debut in 1996 until 2006, not among the top 2 batsmen in the team in tests. For large periods within, he was not even the third best. And this is vindicated by the stats somewhat. Ganguly's average hovers exactly around 40. In comparison, there are 3 Indian test players with significantly higher averages -- a full 10 points higher. Yet with all this, he was made the captain. This basically does not sit well with many when the team starts losing or puts up lack lustre performances or his form dips. When all three happen concurrently, this becomes severely heightened.

- In ODIs he has not been the sharpest fellow on the field and his running has been poor. Through most of his career however, he was among the top 3 Indian batsmen in ODIs. When he has a poor run, people take the test related baggage described above, compound it with the notable weakness on the field, and gun for him.

- Finally, Saurav is a Bengali. Sports loving as Bengalis are, they have not had as many people graduate to the Indian team, proportional to their media coverage and cricket obssession. So quite naturally and deservedly, he is a proud son of Bengal. With all the points above, when he is criticized and constantly under the scanner, it makes the natural "home support" anyone would expect a little sharper.

This is why I think we see the divide of pro and anti Ganguly camps. His weaknesses make him an easy target when we lose. People who appreciate his value and feel the criticism he is facing is more than normal for a player of his demonstrated ability, start discarding their balance and root for him even more. This causes his critiques to thrust the knife a little deeper and the vicious cycle continues.

Very honestly, I think this is clearly seen on the DG, which is a microcosm of Indian cricketing opinions.

At the time SG was made captain his avg in tests was as good as RD and SRT. It was hovering around 50 as far as i remember. And since RD wasnt a surity in the ODI team Sg was given the captaincy. Since then he shown the results so why would you drop him?

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

let's talk Cricket Discussion Groups that root for India: Drop all the members, shut down the sites

[justforkix]

Since it's generally agreed that the slide in Indian cricket started with the Aus 2004 tour, let's see
how our seniors have been performing since then (ignoring Zim):

1. RD 27 tests, avg: 53.60
2. VS 27 tests, avg: 46.71
3. SRT 21 tests, avg: 39.93
4. SG 16 tests, avg: 33.27
5. VVS 25 tests, avg: 31.83
6. YS 13 tests, avg: 29.88

As we can see, the Numbers 1 - 3 have contributed something, so they stay.
Number 4 has a marginal case, but he has already paid for his crimes. He has come back as
the highest averaging batsman in the last series. His case will be reviewed after the next series.
Number 6 has been hampered by injury, and has youth on his side, so he stays.

What remains is Number 5: VVS.

What excuse does VVS ? He doesn't play a single ODI, nor has he ever had to take the burden of captaincy. He has all the time in the world to look after his game. Yet all he returns with is a paltry 31 runs an innings. Plus no contribution as a bowler.

If ever the Board was serious to bring in fresh talent, it should throw VVS out of the test team and give a long rope to a very prospective candidate. He can certainly do better than 31 if he's given 25 tests.

Kaif averages 40.1 in 14 test innings in the same timeframe 

IMO, we need 2 new openers and middle order pool consists of VS, SRT, SG, VVS, Badri, Yuvi, Kaif. MSD, KKD. 3 or 4 out of the 9 in best form are in the playing XI.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

Since it's generally agreed that the slide in Indian cricket started with the Aus 2004 tour, let's see
how our seniors have been performing since then (ignoring Zim):

1. RD 27 tests, avg: 53.60
2. VS 27 tests, avg: 46.71
3. SRT 21 tests, avg: 39.93
4. SG 16 tests, avg: 33.27
5. VVS 25 tests, avg: 31.83
6. YS 13 tests, avg: 29.88

As we can see, the Numbers 1 - 3 have contributed something, so they stay.
Number 4 has a marginal case, but he has already paid for his crimes. He has come back as
the highest averaging batsman in the last series. His case will be reviewed after the next series.
Number 6 has been hampered by injury, and has youth on his side, so he stays.

What remains is Number 5: VVS.

What excuse does VVS ? He doesn't play a single ODI, nor has he ever had to take the burden of captaincy. He has all the time in the world to look after his game. Yet all he returns with is a paltry 31 runs an innings. Plus no contribution as a bowler.

If ever the Board was serious to bring in fresh talent, it should throw VVS out of the test team and give a long rope to a very prospective candidate. He can certainly do better than 31 if he's given 25 tests.

Kaif averages 40.1 in 14 test innings in the same timeframe 

and I average 40 posts per day on a DG dedicated to these losers

[RicePlateReddy]

At the time SG was made captain his avg in tests was as good as RD and SRT. It was hovering around 50 as far as i remember. And since RD wasnt a surity in the ODI team Sg was given the captaincy. Since then he shown the results so why would you drop him?

Yes that is true. But his productivity has dropped since then. RD's went up. Sachin's until recently was also better. VVS is also very good in patches. That is why there was no protest and universal appreciation in the beginning. When his form and our performance dropped, it was natural to expect the daggers to emerge.

[feverpitch]

Finally, Saurav is a Bengali. Sports loving as Bengalis are, they have not had as many people graduate to the Indian team, proportional to their media coverage and cricket obssession. So quite naturally and deservedly, he is a proud son of Bengal. With all the points above, when he is criticized and constantly under the scanner, it makes the natural "home support" anyone would expect a little sharper.

Why is it that when they underperform, Sachin and his supporters are not castigated as Marathis first, or RD supporters as Kannadigas first, but SG and his supporters are taunted first and last as Bengalis [even though SG prolly has more support outside his home state than any other cricketer save SRT, and conversely has a considerable section of critics who are from his home state — as this DG, which can and has been taken as a microcosm of the Indian cricket fan's demography, will show].

[Vick]

At the time SG was made captain his avg in tests was as good as RD and SRT. It was hovering around 50 as far as i remember. And since RD wasnt a surity in the ODI team Sg was given the captaincy. Since then he shown the results so why would you drop him?

Yes that is true. But his productivity has dropped since then. RD's went up. Sachin's until recently was also better. VVS is also very good in patches. That is why there was no protest and universal appreciation in the beginning. When his form and our performance dropped, it was natural to expect the daggers to emerge.

And people forget that a captain has to do two jobs. Just look around and you will find that most captains in the world cricket have this issue. Fleming and vaughn both have their avg hovering around 40 i think.  I do agree that SG's batting in last few years has been very inconsistent and he should have let go of the captaincy after the tour of Pakistan in 2004.

but VVS has always tagged around SG. So what was his excuse? He had full time to devote on his batting. 

[RicePlateReddy]

Finally, Saurav is a Bengali. Sports loving as Bengalis are, they have not had as many people graduate to the Indian team, proportional to their media coverage and cricket obssession. So quite naturally and deservedly, he is a proud son of Bengal. With all the points above, when he is criticized and constantly under the scanner, it makes the natural "home support" anyone would expect a little sharper.

Why is it that when they underperform, Sachin and his supporters are not castigated as Marathis first, or RD supporters as Kannadigas first, but SG and his supporters are taunted first and last as Bengalis [even though SG prolly has more support outside his home state than any other cricketer save SRT, and conversely has a considerable section of critics who are from his home state — as this DG, which can and has been taken as a microcosm of the Indian cricket fan's demography, will show].

I thought I had mentioned why, but perhaps I am wrong. I would love to hear your answer to the question you have posed. Why do you think it happens?