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[Total Members Voted:]

Yes from Tests only

2 (5%)

Yes from ODIs only

8 (20%)

Yes from Both

21 (52.5%)

Not at all

9 (22.5%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Voting closed: March 26, 2007, 10:03:09 PM

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[kban1]

As long as the personal records don't come against the interest of team, They are all welcome.
Actually most of times one goes for a 50 or 100 for self, but also directly helps the team. Not that the team need quick runs to declare fast and player is worried abt his personal milestone that is a no-no.
Let us be fair to players for a moment. Which player in the world does not like to get a 50 or a hundred. Forget an individual.
 The pressure invariably builds up once you approach that milestone. Differnet guys respond differnetly to the situations. Anyway I am very happy with SRT. There was a time when he used to be the lone scorer in team. Yes he was selfish for the team  .

Exactly !! 


rare occasions of agreement  are more frequent now 

[ramshorns]

Yes any player who cannot play a series fully and wants and picks games he want to appear to an extent is washed up.

Another rant without an iota of proof !!! Show me ONE GAME since WC2007 till now which Sachin has missed for reasons other than injury !!!

Rants. Really.  Mine will dim in comparision to yours on this DG be it on the match threads or threads related to individual players.  So be careful in what you wish for before you call out others.

If you are hung up in techincalities of terms so be it.  It is a case of a player wanting to rest on niggling injuries and wear and tear which translates to picking and choosing when he clearly during different series did rest on aches and pains.

[justforkix]

1) No. He has been out with injury only during the first ODI series in SL, if I am not mistaken. Even Sehwag missed that due to injury. The other series where hw has sat out are small meaningless tournaments ...despite being fit to play ...which is how it ought to be. He need not play every match and every series.

That is incorrect !! India have played 65 ODIs since WC2007. Sachin has played 41 of those. Therefore, he has missed 24 ODIs.

Let us look at which 24 ODIs and why?

2 : BD in BD - rested for this series after selectors - wanting to try out new players after WC07 disaster.
1 : Scotland in Scotland : rested by team mngmt - truly meaningless minnow game
3 : Kitply Cup - not recovered fully from groin injury sustained during CB series
6 : Asia Cup - same as above
5 : SL in SL - shoulder injury sustained during SL test series
3 : Eng in Eng - rested by selectors, unless perhaps Sachin bullied the selectors into resting him ()
2 : SL in SL - rested by team mngmt after winning series 3-0
2 : NZ in NZ - rested to recover from stomach muscle strain

[justforkix]

Yes any player who cannot play a series fully and wants and picks games he want to appear to an extent is washed up.

Another rant without an iota of proof !!! Show me ONE GAME since WC2007 till now which Sachin has missed for reasons other than injury !!!

Rants. Really.  Mine will dim in comparision to yours on this DG be it on the match threads or threads related to individual players.  So be careful in what you wish for before you call out others.

If you are hung up in techincalities of terms so be it.  It is a case of a player wanting to rest on niggling injuries and wear and tear which translates to picking and choosing when he clearly during different series did rest on aches and pains.

nice diversionary tactic when asked to justify your imaginations with facts - have fun

[ramshorns]

Yes any player who cannot play a series fully and wants and picks games he want to appear to an extent is washed up.

Another rant without an iota of proof !!! Show me ONE GAME since WC2007 till now which Sachin has missed for reasons other than injury !!!

Rants. Really.  Mine will dim in comparision to yours on this DG be it on the match threads or threads related to individual players.  So be careful in what you wish for before you call out others.

If you are hung up in techincalities of terms so be it.  It is a case of a player wanting to rest on niggling injuries and wear and tear which translates to picking and choosing when he clearly during different series did rest on aches and pains.

nice diversionary tactic when asked to justify your imaginations with facts - have fun

The facts are there for all to see.  Miss games through injury or rest(translates to pick and choose) come back grab the opening spot because you do not like to play anywhere else even when there is a performing pair and you tell me I am the one with a diversionary tactic.

[justforkix]

The facts are there for all to see.  Miss games through injury or rest(translates to pick and choose) come back grab the opening spot because you do not like to play anywhere else even when there is a performing pair and you tell me I am the one with a diversionary tactic.

yes, of course. in any team in the world, player coming back from injury takes his spot.

And yes, facts are there for all to see in reply #82.

[ramshorns]

The facts are there for all to see.  Miss games through injury or rest(translates to pick and choose) come back grab the opening spot because you do not like to play anywhere else even when there is a performing pair and you tell me I am the one with a diversionary tactic.

yes, of course. in any team in the world, player coming back from injury takes his spot.

And yes, facts are there for all to see in reply #82.

Yes there are and they clearly tell Tendulkar cannot be a regular owing to an inury prone body. 

In my estimates Tendulkar is garbbing GG's spot unfortuntely who opens in all forms excepting when Tendulkar plays. 

[justforkix]

The facts are there for all to see.  Miss games through injury or rest(translates to pick and choose) come back grab the opening spot because you do not like to play anywhere else even when there is a performing pair and you tell me I am the one with a diversionary tactic.

yes, of course. in any team in the world, player coming back from injury takes his spot.

And yes, facts are there for all to see in reply #82.

Yes there are and they clearly tell Tendulkar cannot be a regular owing to an inury prone body. 

In my estimates Tendulkar is garbbing GG's spot unfortuntely who opens in all forms excepting when Tendulkar plays.

And to me they clearly tells that Tendulkar does not pick and choose games to play and missed games in the last 2 years only due to injury, which can just about happen to any player. The body is not injury prone for the simple reason that injuries sustained were (1) groin injury, while running during CB series 1st final - can happen to any player at any time (2) shoulder injury while fielding in 3rd test in SL - again can happen to any player (3) stomach muscle strain because of ball hit during batting, again can happen to any player. Of course, recovery time is more because of age, but this cannot be reason for sidelining a performing player.

Anyways, glad that the team management, especially MSD and GK do not agree with you and agree with me.

[ramshorns]

The facts are there for all to see.  Miss games through injury or rest(translates to pick and choose) come back grab the opening spot because you do not like to play anywhere else even when there is a performing pair and you tell me I am the one with a diversionary tactic.

yes, of course. in any team in the world, player coming back from injury takes his spot.

And yes, facts are there for all to see in reply #82.

Yes there are and they clearly tell Tendulkar cannot be a regular owing to an inury prone body. 

In my estimates Tendulkar is garbbing GG's spot unfortuntely who opens in all forms excepting when Tendulkar plays.

And to me they clearly tells that Tendulkar does not pick and choose games to play and missed games in the last 2 years only due to injury, which can just about happen to any player. The body is not injury prone for the simple reason that injuries sustained were (1) groin injury, while running during CB series 1st final - can happen to any player at any time (2) shoulder injury while fielding in 3rd test in SL - again can happen to any player (3) stomach muscle strain because of ball hit during batting, again can happen to any player. Of course, recovery time is more because of age, but this cannot be reason for sidelining a performing player.

That is where we differ.  Some of these injuries are a clear sign of aging and wear and tear be it the groin or the shoulder.  And the rest factor is a clear indication of picking and choosing.

Regarding the sidelining of a player I gave the reasons many times why Tendulkar should not be part of a ODI set up especially if he wants to open.  Enough said on that.

Anyways, glad that the team management, especially MSD and GK do not agree with you and agree with me.[/

Just like I am glad that MSD and GK agree with me and not you that Munaf is a better bet than Balaji. 

[12th_Man]

The facts are there for all to see.  Miss games through injury or rest(translates to pick and choose) come back grab the opening spot because you do not like to play anywhere else even when there is a performing pair and you tell me I am the one with a diversionary tactic.

yes, of course. in any team in the world, player coming back from injury takes his spot.

And yes, facts are there for all to see in reply #82.

Yes there are and they clearly tell Tendulkar cannot be a regular owing to an inury prone body. 

In my estimates Tendulkar is garbbing GG's spot unfortuntely who opens in all forms excepting when Tendulkar plays.

And to me they clearly tells that Tendulkar does not pick and choose games to play and missed games in the last 2 years only due to injury, which can just about happen to any player. The body is not injury prone for the simple reason that injuries sustained were (1) groin injury, while running during CB series 1st final - can happen to any player at any time (2) shoulder injury while fielding in 3rd test in SL - again can happen to any player (3) stomach muscle strain because of ball hit during batting, again can happen to any player. Of course, recovery time is more because of age, but this cannot be reason for sidelining a performing player.

Anyways, glad that the team management, especially MSD and GK do not agree with you and agree with me.

Now you have come to defend and explain groin injuries  .  How sure are you they were from ruinning between the wickets and not hit wicket     a night before?
Rohit Sharma probably is less susceptible to these injuries. Certain parts need more oiling with age (pls. excuse my french).

[gouravk]

if SRT is indeed picking and choosing odi games im glad he is doing that 

[gopolks]

There is no way Sachin should retire now, that would rob the cricket world of one of its legends.

[LosingNow]

There is no way Sachin should retire now, that would rob the cricket world of one of its legends.

Agree. The retirment discussion is focussed on retirement from ODIs.

[WicketView]

There is no way Sachin should retire now, that would rob the cricket world of one of its legends.

Agree. The retirment discussion is focussed on retirement from ODIs.

Umm ... Of the members who decided to vote on this one, a majority thought that he should retire from tests too (57.5 %) to 42.5 % who said no. So, I don't agree with you.

The poll probably was before he hit a purple patch, but retirement would have clearly prevented the current run.

Finally, even on the question of retirement from ODIs, there is something important to consider:
Some may feel he ought to retire so that he can concentrate on tests. Simply, because tests are important while ODI are not worth it, not because India has better players for ODI.
Others may feel that India has better players for ODI, and hence he should retire.
The difference is important if you are talking about opening partnerships like the other thread.

[ramshorns]

There is no way Sachin should retire now, that would rob the cricket world of one of its legends.

That is not a reason for someone to continue because someone is robbed of a legend.  Bradman played and died and the game is in a lot better shape than his time and when Tendulkar goes it will be same.  The game will always have new stars and that will create legends the way it ought to be.

[keep-it-cool]

1) No. He has been out with injury only during the first ODI series in SL, if I am not mistaken. Even Sehwag missed that due to injury. The other series where hw has sat out are small meaningless tournaments ...despite being fit to play ...which is how it ought to be. He need not play every match and every series. Pray when has GG had the uncertainty over his spot? Those numbers are in the matches both have played since the time when GG became a certainty in the side. I dont see SRT losing out much on the fitness front v/s GG - those arguments were valid for SG & RD - he may not be as quick or agile but then he does not lose out by much and he also makes up for it by scoring at a c20% higher average and similar strike rate.

So because Tendulkar sat them out they are meaningless.  I see.  We all know how Tendulkar did in 2007 WC matches the meaningful ones against BD and SL when it mattered and in all those finals they lost the other meaningful ones since 2001.  Easy cop out to say Tendulkar sat out the meaningless games to suit your argument when in essense it is a mark of someone with a beaten up body.  GG's opening spot is not a certainty because of Tendulkar and that is obvious.  The team is better served if GG has continuity as an opener over a 36 year old in the long run.  And the chances GG got as an opener he proved that we will not be missing Tendulkar at all the latest proof of that when we chased down the series clinching game 4 against NZ.  And we all know what a pair VS-GG pair can be.

2) Why not? If GG averages more at No3 than at No1 AND SRT averages more than GG at No 1 AND SRT averages higher at No1 than any other batting position, then from the team perspective, VS, SRT, GG is the best order. SRT's inferior fitness and agility have not led to any lowering of either his average or SR vis-a-vis GG - and there is enough evidence to show that having come on the back of a good platform set by SRT, GG averages more than he does when he has to set the platform.

The game four chase against NZ nullifies all that notions the way the VS-GG chased down a daunting ask.  We all now know what VS-GG pair is capable of, not that there was ever a doubt about it.  A 36 year old should not be hampering the growth of a 27-28 year old especially when the 36 year old played for 20 years and had surgeries and niggling injuries over the last 3-4 years on a regular basis and that 27-28 year old is equally good.  I feel we will miss nothing if Tendulkar is out of the ODI line up and it has been proved we can win without him.  As a matter of fact we will have to gain more than we lose and could unearth other options before the next WC which is 2 1/2 years away.

3) you may say i have a tendulkar bias ..but that still does not prove that GG is being forced to bat at a position where he has not only said on camera he prefers to bat but also does better on all metrics.

Actually I have seen GG in interviews say that he and VS have great chemistry and he loves to open with VS.  And he indeed is good.  All we need to do is see his averages as a Test opener, ODI opener and 20-20 opener.

Can you just answer one simple question? If GG was so keen on opening as against batting at No 3, why did he not open in Australia when Sehwag was benched? He was a certainty in the side, in form and probably the most prolific scorer till that point. Moreover, the two matches where he could have opened but did not were the finals. Instead, GG stayed at No 3 and we had Uthappa who was not really in great form opening the innings. Does that not give a very good indication that GG probably does prefer the No 3 slot? That he fills in for Sachin when the latter is not available is a credit to him, but not necessarily his choice.

So you have GG's better record at No 3, his interview saying that he prefers No 3 and evidence of matches where he could have opened but did not. Yet, you continue to insist that SRT is bullying him into not opening? Strange.

[ramshorns]

1) No. He has been out with injury only during the first ODI series in SL, if I am not mistaken. Even Sehwag missed that due to injury. The other series where hw has sat out are small meaningless tournaments ...despite being fit to play ...which is how it ought to be. He need not play every match and every series. Pray when has GG had the uncertainty over his spot? Those numbers are in the matches both have played since the time when GG became a certainty in the side. I dont see SRT losing out much on the fitness front v/s GG - those arguments were valid for SG & RD - he may not be as quick or agile but then he does not lose out by much and he also makes up for it by scoring at a c20% higher average and similar strike rate.

So because Tendulkar sat them out they are meaningless.  I see.  We all know how Tendulkar did in 2007 WC matches the meaningful ones against BD and SL when it mattered and in all those finals they lost the other meaningful ones since 2001.  Easy cop out to say Tendulkar sat out the meaningless games to suit your argument when in essense it is a mark of someone with a beaten up body.  GG's opening spot is not a certainty because of Tendulkar and that is obvious.  The team is better served if GG has continuity as an opener over a 36 year old in the long run.  And the chances GG got as an opener he proved that we will not be missing Tendulkar at all the latest proof of that when we chased down the series clinching game 4 against NZ.  And we all know what a pair VS-GG pair can be.

2) Why not? If GG averages more at No3 than at No1 AND SRT averages more than GG at No 1 AND SRT averages higher at No1 than any other batting position, then from the team perspective, VS, SRT, GG is the best order. SRT's inferior fitness and agility have not led to any lowering of either his average or SR vis-a-vis GG - and there is enough evidence to show that having come on the back of a good platform set by SRT, GG averages more than he does when he has to set the platform.

The game four chase against NZ nullifies all that notions the way the VS-GG chased down a daunting ask.  We all now know what VS-GG pair is capable of, not that there was ever a doubt about it.  A 36 year old should not be hampering the growth of a 27-28 year old especially when the 36 year old played for 20 years and had surgeries and niggling injuries over the last 3-4 years on a regular basis and that 27-28 year old is equally good.  I feel we will miss nothing if Tendulkar is out of the ODI line up and it has been proved we can win without him.  As a matter of fact we will have to gain more than we lose and could unearth other options before the next WC which is 2 1/2 years away.

3) you may say i have a tendulkar bias ..but that still does not prove that GG is being forced to bat at a position where he has not only said on camera he prefers to bat but also does better on all metrics.

Actually I have seen GG in interviews say that he and VS have great chemistry and he loves to open with VS.  And he indeed is good.  All we need to do is see his averages as a Test opener, ODI opener and 20-20 opener.

Can you just answer one simple question? If GG was so keen on opening as against batting at No 3, why did he not open in Australia when Sehwag was benched? He was a certainty in the side, in form and probably the most prolific scorer till that point. Moreover, the two matches where he could have opened but did not were the finals. Instead, GG stayed at No 3 and we had Uthappa who was not really in great form opening the innings. Does that not give a very good indication that GG probably does prefer the No 3 slot? That he fills in for Sachin when the latter is not available is a credit to him, but not necessarily his choice.

So you have GG's better record at No 3, his interview saying that he prefers No 3 and evidence of matches where he could have opened but did not. Yet, you continue to insist that SRT is bullying him into not opening? Strange.

So going by your theory even today GG can be accomodated at No.3 is'nt if he really prefers No.3 by directly swapping Tendulkar's spot with another player to open when he does not play.  That it is not is another story.  And not only that he is our opener is in Tests and 20-20 and ODI's(except when Tendulkar shows up).  Just going by two lines in hundreds of interviews he gave and saying that he prefers the No.3 spot is just a cop out.  On the similar lines he also said he loves to open and he and VS have an unique chemistry in other interviews.  What about those?  Even after all that you are sticking to your notion of GG prefers No 3 and not willing to accept that he does so in ODI's to accomodate a player hungup on a spot.  Very strange.

[willow]

I find this issue regarding sachin retiring a very tedious and tenuous one.

as it has been highlighted in this thread - this is a two pronged discussion.

I - performance

sachin has been performing far better than gambhir in any way or form. his average is 13 points ahead (48) to gambhirs 35. his SR is better. (minnows excluded)

gambhir - when he has opened has a similar avg and SR to his number three position.

the argument that he will better serve India as an opener than sachin is fanciful, presumptious and didactic at best.

II fitness

gambhir has missed 12 matches in this period, to sachins 22. many of these has been to rest sachin as was that last ODI in NZ, to ensure he was fit for the tests when the seies was already won.

if we go along this line we should drop sachin from tests as well, and why only sachin drop VVS. I am not commentng on RD because we have discussed it in detail here before.

[keep-it-cool]

Willow,

A fairer comparison would be with GG's performance once he became a certainty in the side (from the CB series) - that is what we get now. It will not change your conclusion, just that the diff narrows to about 7 pts.

[keep-it-cool]

And Willow, now you'll probably hear why an italian and her partying son should be removed from india before VVS is removed from the test team!

[willow]

Willow,

A fairer comparison would be with GG's performance once he became a certainty in the side (from the CB series) - that is what we get now. It will not change your conclusion, just that the diff narrows to about 7 pts.

sorry

i thought gambhir was in the indian side continuously since the world cup other than for injury.

[keep-it-cool]

If I remember right he had to sit out a few matches when SG was opening - the odis against Pak and Aus come to mind, although I may be mistaken.

[willow]

If I remember right he had to sit out a few matches when SG was opening - the odis against Pak and Aus come to mind, although I may be mistaken.

during this phase he missed 3 matches in eng against eng since we wanted to play the extra bowler and his performance was the worst. it was a toss up between him and karthik (of the wicket keeper variety). he also missed four games due to injury against the ausssies. others he missed after the cb series were all due to injury/ban.

[keep-it-cool]

Ok, I'll need to revisit those matches then. But it is true that he was the first on the chopping block ... and also that he felt secure mainly from the CB series - which is reflected in his performance ever since. I would give him the benefit of that comfort factor just as I would give SRT the benefit of his feeling more comfortable while opening than batting elsewhere. So, I still think it is fair to compare the two over the timeframe that started with the CB series. Not that it makes me disagree with your view on who should open - we are essentially saying the same thing.