Print

Please post once and this message will disappear! Introduce yourself, say hello, jump into a discussion...

[ganavk]

http: cricket. indiatimes. com/articleshow/1653872. cms

 NEW DELHI:  With the World Cup around the corner and the top eight teams gunning to lift the most coveted trophy in the West Indies, there is good news for Indian skipper Rahul Dravid. Statistics show that the 'Wall' is India's most successful One-day captain among all those who have captained India in at least 20 matches.

Under Dravid, India have won 32 of the 58 matches that have produced results during his tenure. That's a success rate of 55%, just a little higher than the 54% success rate that Sourav Ganguly, Mohammad Azharuddin and Kapil Dev had. This may seem like a fine point, but the statistics actually understate how much more successful Dravid has been than his predecessors.

That's because, of the 62 One-day matches in which Dravid has captained, only two have been played against a traditional minnow — Zimbabwe in 2005 — while the rest have all been against the top teams in world cricket.

In contrast, Ganguly had 31 wins against the likes of Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Namibia and Netherlands boosting his success rate and Azhar had the benefit of 20 wins against the whipping boys of international cricket.

Exclude matches against the minnows and Dravid's success rate drops to 54%, but Ganguly's goes down to 43% and Azhar's to 49%.

Only Kapil Dev, with a 51% success rate against the better teams, comes close to matching Dravid's record.

Kapil, in fact, has a better record leading away from home — excluding minnows — than even Dravid. On foreign soil, Kapil won 49% of the matches he led in, whereas Dravid has won 10 out of 23 completed matches for a 43% success rate. That put's him in third place behind Gavaskar, who had a 46% success rate with 11 wins in 24 matches.

Ganguly's record abroad (23%) is the worst among the six captains who have led India at least in 20 matches each.

Azhar has the best record at home (excluding minnows) with a 65% win rate, but Dravid is not far behind at 61%. On this list, Ganguly finishes in fifth spot, ahead of Gavaskar, who could captain India to only 14 wins in 35 completed matches.

[Blwe_torch]

Thats really impressive stats! I wonder why people make so much fuss about Ganguly?!

[sgusa]

Thats really impressive stats! I wonder why people make so much fuss about Ganguly?!

Exactly! He doesnt even seem that good a captain!

[arjun]

Is cricinfo statsguru all hogwash then? Because it shows Dravid captaining in 17 away matches so far, out of which 6 was won by India. That translates to success rate of around 35%. Out of this 6, 4 were won in Pak in that memorable series.

[dhruvdeepak]

Is cricinfo statsguru all hogwash then? Because it shows Dravid captaining in 17 away matches so far, out of which 6 was won by India. That translates to success rate of around 35%. Out of this 6, 4 were won in Pak in that memorable series.

that wont include matches at 'neutral' venues i think (where it is 'away' for both teams)

[arjun]

And ganguly's away win record is 47%, and yes, that includes minnows.

[sudzz]

http: cricket. indiatimes. com/articleshow/1653872. cms

 NEW DELHI:  With the World Cup around the corner and the top eight teams gunning to lift the most coveted trophy in the West Indies, there is good news for Indian skipper Rahul Dravid. Statistics show that the 'Wall' is India's most successful One-day captain among all those who have captained India in at least 20 matches.

Under Dravid, India have won 32 of the 58 matches that have produced results during his tenure. That's a success rate of 55%, just a little higher than the 54% success rate that Sourav Ganguly, Mohammad Azharuddin and Kapil Dev had. This may seem like a fine point, but the statistics actually understate how much more successful Dravid has been than his predecessors.

That's because, of the 62 One-day matches in which Dravid has captained, only two have been played against a traditional minnow — Zimbabwe in 2005 — while the rest have all been against the top teams in world cricket.

In contrast, Ganguly had 31 wins against the likes of Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Namibia and Netherlands boosting his success rate and Azhar had the benefit of 20 wins against the whipping boys of international cricket.

Exclude matches against the minnows and Dravid's success rate drops to 54%, but Ganguly's goes down to 43% and Azhar's to 49%.

Only Kapil Dev, with a 51% success rate against the better teams, comes close to matching Dravid's record.

Kapil, in fact, has a better record leading away from home — excluding minnows — than even Dravid. On foreign soil, Kapil won 49% of the matches he led in, whereas Dravid has won 10 out of 23 completed matches for a 43% success rate. That put's him in third place behind Gavaskar, who had a 46% success rate with 11 wins in 24 matches.

Ganguly's record abroad (23%) is the worst among the six captains who have led India at least in 20 matches each.

Azhar has the best record at home (excluding minnows) with a 65% win rate, but Dravid is not far behind at 61%. On this list, Ganguly finishes in fifth spot, ahead of Gavaskar, who could captain India to only 14 wins in 35 completed matches.

How very convenient-Under RD-the first SL series was played with a half strength SL team, The current set of games aganist WI and SL were also with incomplete teams. Take these off and the calculate. These in itself would constitute about 12 to 15 games.

[Blwe_torch]

http: cricket. indiatimes. com/articleshow/1653872. cms

 NEW DELHI:  With the World Cup around the corner and the top eight teams gunning to lift the most coveted trophy in the West Indies, there is good news for Indian skipper Rahul Dravid. Statistics show that the 'Wall' is India's most successful One-day captain among all those who have captained India in at least 20 matches.

Under Dravid, India have won 32 of the 58 matches that have produced results during his tenure. That's a success rate of 55%, just a little higher than the 54% success rate that Sourav Ganguly, Mohammad Azharuddin and Kapil Dev had. This may seem like a fine point, but the statistics actually understate how much more successful Dravid has been than his predecessors.

That's because, of the 62 One-day matches in which Dravid has captained, only two have been played against a traditional minnow — Zimbabwe in 2005 — while the rest have all been against the top teams in world cricket.

In contrast, Ganguly had 31 wins against the likes of Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Namibia and Netherlands boosting his success rate and Azhar had the benefit of 20 wins against the whipping boys of international cricket.

Exclude matches against the minnows and Dravid's success rate drops to 54%, but Ganguly's goes down to 43% and Azhar's to 49%.

Only Kapil Dev, with a 51% success rate against the better teams, comes close to matching Dravid's record.

Kapil, in fact, has a better record leading away from home — excluding minnows — than even Dravid. On foreign soil, Kapil won 49% of the matches he led in, whereas Dravid has won 10 out of 23 completed matches for a 43% success rate. That put's him in third place behind Gavaskar, who had a 46% success rate with 11 wins in 24 matches.

Ganguly's record abroad (23%) is the worst among the six captains who have led India at least in 20 matches each.

Azhar has the best record at home (excluding minnows) with a 65% win rate, but Dravid is not far behind at 61%. On this list, Ganguly finishes in fifth spot, ahead of Gavaskar, who could captain India to only 14 wins in 35 completed matches.

How very convenient-Under RD-the first SL series was played with a half strength SL team, The current set of games aganist WI and SL were also with incomplete teams. Take these off and the calculate. These in itself would constitute about 12 to 15 games.

Even the English team that visited last year was very weak.

[arjun]

On neutral grounds as captain, Ganguly's win rate is 34 out of 60, and Dravid's 5 out of 9.

[arjun]

So if we take opposition home and neutral grounds together, Dravid's win rate comes to 11 out of 26. Not bad at all. But how that makes him best all time ODI captain, I don't know.

[Blwe_torch]

Well, as of now, it will be preposturous to declare Dravid the best ever Indian captain. We simply can see that he isn't the best....stats be damned!
It is an insult to some of the great names who have captained India earlier.

[dextrous]

Yes, of course, if we take away wins over England E, Sri Lanka S, and West Indian W teams, things would turn tighter 

[rajesh]

Stats prove what i was saying repeatedly that Dravid is perhaps a better captain than what we in this DG think ..
But in this DG we have already formed our opinion that RD as a captain sucks and he is and will always be inferior to other so called Greats like SG,KD etc . Mind u i still feel SG's test captaincy is far far superior in stats and SG's ODI captaincy sucked big time  and Stats also prove the same ..

Pls do not treat the wins against SL and England  as something against minnows because to me even India was a India B team then (Where our whole top order was flopping continuously and only yuvi ,pathan and dhoni were the only success story) and there are/could be lot of such victories or even losses in SG's captaincy even inside India ..

For a sample We have to draw with Eng (3-3) and lost to West indies in india ..(3-4) where both the teams were very weak to the extent that we are about to streamroll them

[arjun]

SG's ODI captaincy sucked big time  and Stats also prove the same ..

But the fact is, stats don't prove it.

[Blwe_torch]

I am sure it didn't suck big time!

...........or for that matter, even small time!

[proloy]

Does anyone know how Dravid's captaincy compares with that of Sehwag in terms of percentages?

[achutank]

Stats prove what i was saying repeatedly that Dravid is perhaps a better captain than what we in this DG think ..
But in this DG we have already formed our opinion that RD as a captain sucks and he is and will always be inferior to other so called Greats like SG,KD etc . Mind u i still feel SG's test captaincy is far far superior in stats and SG's ODI captaincy sucked big time  and Stats also prove the same ..

Pls do not treat the wins against SL and England  as something against minnows because to me even India was a India B team then (Where our whole top order was flopping continuously and only yuvi ,pathan and dhoni were the only success story) and there are/could be lot of such victories or even losses in SG's captaincy even inside India ..

For a sample We have to draw with Eng (3-3) and lost to West indies in india ..(3-4) where both the teams were very weak to the extent that we are about to streamroll them

a good way to gauge captaincy is not by wins but the number of runs a team scores against you in ODI. batting there is hardly any scope for the ball to ball captaincy that is required in ODI except for a couple of possible changes in batting line-up like Pathan at No.3 or Sehwag opening.

so if anyone can dig up 270+ scores against dravid we will be able to perhaps make a better comment.

[WicketView]

Is there a good statistical measure of captaincy? I think not.
Wins/Losses alone don't give the whole story ... among contemporaries,
Ricky Ponting surely has the best Win/Loss records in both tests and One-dayers, but that
does not necessarily prove that he is the best captain. People speak
of Flemming as one of the best among contemporaries, but his win/loss
record must be pretty poor in comparison.

Runs scored against you is one of the measures suggested. But
obviously, if you don't have good bowlers/face really good batsmen on
belters (as is getting to be the norm), you will have a large number
of runs against you. Also this does not allow you to compare between
captains of different times, as the scoring pattern has changed
dramatically in tests with the advent of one day cricket, and in one
dayers with time. There used to be a time, when the usual strategy was
to play the first fifteen overs of a one day game carefully, and up
the run rate during the slog overs. This began to change during 1992
(Greatbach, Lara), and was rendered completely unrecognizable in 1996
by many led by Jaysuriya. And now, the 15 overs period has been
changed to 20. Barring the new phenomenon of having some low scoring
pitches these days (like in WI/ recent SA), I am sure present captains
would be hard done by this measure.

In short, captaincy, for what it is worth, can only be measured in
'smaller' things like reading how much a pitch is worth, when to
attack and when to defend, that are/can not conveniently available on
a cricinfo statguru. It is somewhat easier to record the number of
terrible gaffes (like forgetting to give his best bowler on the day a
full quota), but even those are tricky.
So, it is probably meaningless to attach much significance to the
comparison of SG-GC captaincy records.

[sudzz]

Is there a good statistical measure of captaincy? I think not.
Wins/Losses alone don't give the whole story ... among contemporaries,
Ricky Ponting surely has the best Win/Loss records in both tests and One-dayers, but that
does not necessarily prove that he is the best captain. People speak
of Flemming as one of the best among contemporaries, but his win/loss
record must be pretty poor in comparison.

Runs scored against you is one of the measures suggested. But
obviously, if you don't have good bowlers/face really good batsmen on
belters (as is getting to be the norm), you will have a large number
of runs against you. Also this does not allow you to compare between
captains of different times, as the scoring pattern has changed
dramatically in tests with the advent of one day cricket, and in one
dayers with time. There used to be a time, when the usual strategy was
to play the first fifteen overs of a one day game carefully, and up
the run rate during the slog overs. This began to change during 1992
(Greatbach, Lara), and was rendered completely unrecognizable in 1996
by many led by Jaysuriya. And now, the 15 overs period has been
changed to 20. Barring the new phenomenon of having some low scoring
pitches these days (like in WI/ recent SA), I am sure present captains
would be hard done by this measure.

In short, captaincy, for what it is worth, can only be measured in
'smaller' things like reading how much a pitch is worth, when to
attack and when to defend, that are/can not conveniently available on
a cricinfo statguru. It is somewhat easier to record the number of
terrible gaffes (like forgetting to give his best bowler on the day a
full quota), but even those are tricky.
So, it is probably meaningless to attach much significance to the
comparison of SG-GC captaincy records.

Very well articulated, I think you are right, yardsticks for performance change with every match.

[dhruvdeepak]

Is there a good statistical measure of captaincy? I think not.
Wins/Losses alone don't give the whole story ... among contemporaries,
Ricky Ponting surely has the best Win/Loss records in both tests and One-dayers, but that
does not necessarily prove that he is the best captain. People speak
of Flemming as one of the best among contemporaries, but his win/loss
record must be pretty poor in comparison.

Runs scored against you is one of the measures suggested. But
obviously, if you don't have good bowlers/face really good batsmen on
belters (as is getting to be the norm), you will have a large number
of runs against you. Also this does not allow you to compare between
captains of different times, as the scoring pattern has changed
dramatically in tests with the advent of one day cricket, and in one
dayers with time. There used to be a time, when the usual strategy was
to play the first fifteen overs of a one day game carefully, and up
the run rate during the slog overs. This began to change during 1992
(Greatbach, Lara), and was rendered completely unrecognizable in 1996
by many led by Jaysuriya. And now, the 15 overs period has been
changed to 20. Barring the new phenomenon of having some low scoring
pitches these days (like in WI/ recent SA), I am sure present captains
would be hard done by this measure.

In short, captaincy, for what it is worth, can only be measured in
'smaller' things like reading how much a pitch is worth, when to
attack and when to defend, that are/can not conveniently available on
a cricinfo statguru. It is somewhat easier to record the number of
terrible gaffes (like forgetting to give his best bowler on the day a
full quota), but even those are tricky.
So, it is probably meaningless to attach much significance to the
comparison of SG-GC captaincy records.

i was just about to post something to this effect. just because the stats show something, what does that prove? how many variables are there in measuring the reign of a captain? literally 100s? just like in the SG-GC captaincy comparison - you are comparing across eras, different rules, different sets of conditions, different teams, different opposition. what are the long term and short term effects of a particular leader's captaincy? how do you measure that? which players were given confidence that led them to become world beaters? IMO, highly bogus to quote some numbers like (12 wins out of 27) and say HENCE HE IS A BETTER CAPTAIN. results count for a lot - but that is not the endpoint in evaluating a good captain. i dont care if RD has the best win percentage - there are so many other ways to analyze his captaincy. without looking at all those parameters, the conclusion suggested by the article is inaccurate.

[arjun]

Agree.

[Libran]

Too early to pass judgements..At this point in time, it looks good...

But we are comparing apples to oranges....

Either the comparison should be equal number of matches captained ...or after both are done with captaincy....

What  happens as we go along into the future, could change these numbers...

<arunlal mode on> .....
for better or for worse...time will tell
<arunlal mode off>

[m]

Sometimes, I wonder if this DG consists of hypocrites... The same set of people who posted in this thread glorified SG's record against GC's  in another thread, whereas here they belittle RD's record(not that it is great...but  )...

Same on Sujith somasundar's thread too.. He broke into the team after performances in domestics,unlike the Noel Davids or Udit patels ...

[toney]

Stats prove what i was saying repeatedly that Dravid is perhaps a better captain than what we in this DG think ..
But in this DG we have already formed our opinion that RD as a captain sucks and he is and will always be inferior to other so called Greats like SG,KD etc . Mind u i still feel SG's test captaincy is far far superior in stats and SG's ODI captaincy sucked big time  and Stats also prove the same ..

Pls do not treat the wins against SL and England  as something against minnows because to me even India was a India B team then (Where our whole top order was flopping continuously and only yuvi ,pathan and dhoni were the only success story) and there are/could be lot of such victories or even losses in SG's captaincy even inside India ..

For a sample We have to draw with Eng (3-3) and lost to West indies in india ..(3-4) where both the teams were very weak to the extent that we are about to streamroll them

Good point. Another thing was that we could hardly win a single series/finals which could have been due to a captain's inadequacies too.
<fineleg mode>
We lost series against teams like WI and drew with Eng (at that time, every other test playing team was trashing these teams) at HOME!
</fineleg mode>

[arjun]

here they belittle RD's record(not that it is great...but  )...

Where exactly?

[Prafulla]

See - it is very easy and simple to redicule anyone whether SG or RD. But, I feel RD is not at all a bad captain. He always leads from the front (see Pakistan Series, WI Series etc), he has defended low scores (against australia in Mumbai - when after Nagpur match, SG was "unavailable") and he attacks well. But we must remember that - when team is doing badly - No captain can do wonders (even Ponting will fail, if asked to lead India !!). RD is reasonably attacking captain. India won series in WI and then first ever test match in SA. The problem with indian cricket is more around RD's own performance. Very rarely, India has lost a match in past few years, when he has played well. But if he fails (which is also natural - as - one out of 4 inning, he is bound to fail), India loses - (e.g. in Pakistan - third test, against England also). In ODI - except 2006, RD's performance too, has been very good.
Yes - SG also was, a very good captain too.

One of the parameter of rating captain - must be his own performance in batting/bowling etc as captain. Here, KD/SMG/RD have performed far better than SG.

On the performance at neutral grounds, let us ignore - matches in Canada and then compare the performances.

Yes, I would certainly rate - SG as luckier captain, as in his era - Sehwag/RD/VVS/SRT/Sreenath/ZK/Nehra etc were doing very well - so it was very formidable batting lineup. I hope, no one links "form" of the players/team to the captain's performance.

In my view, RD is also a very good captain - yes, bit unlucky, when most of the players lost form all together. Certainly RD can not play for remaining players.

[Cover Point]

One of the parameter of rating captain - must be his own performance in batting/bowling etc as captain. Here, KD/SMG/RD have performed far better than SG.

I think this is a very very pertinent point. When a captain is able to himself lead from the front the team is completely different than when there are huge question marks over the captains own form. SG's innings in Brisbane launched a successful Indian tour there. In his last year of captaincy India did poorly and it was coincident with his own poor form.

The problem happens when there is a question mark over the captains own selection. It leads to a lot of issues within the team since no one drops themselves from the team.

So this point of captains own form is a very very good one.

[Libran]

Sometimes, I wonder if this DG consists of hypocrites... The same set of people who posted in this thread glorified SG's record against GC's  in another thread, whereas here they belittle RD's record(not that it is great...but  )...

Same on Sujith somasundar's thread too.. He broke into the team after performances in domestics,unlike the Noel Davids or Udit patels ...

Would help if you could actually look at his Domestic record ...his achievements when he actually got drafted into the Indian Team....again thanks to GRV, only....and more important, the performances of other batsmen in the domestic circuit in the same period when he got drafted...

Then we could actually discuss hypocrisy.....Thankfully, inspite of Brijesh's all out effort, Udit is not being pushed into the big league...an embarassment we can do without...One Mr Dharmichand now in Singapore/ Malaysia will be able to tell you better....

[Blwe_torch]

Stats prove what i was saying repeatedly that Dravid is perhaps a better captain than what we in this DG think ..
But in this DG we have already formed our opinion that RD as a captain sucks and he is and will always be inferior to other so called Greats like SG,KD etc . Mind u i still feel SG's test captaincy is far far superior in stats and SG's ODI captaincy sucked big time  and Stats also prove the same ..

Pls do not treat the wins against SL and England  as something against minnows because to me even India was a India B team then (Where our whole top order was flopping continuously and only yuvi ,pathan and dhoni were the only success story) and there are/could be lot of such victories or even losses in SG's captaincy even inside India ..

For a sample We have to draw with Eng (3-3) and lost to West indies in india ..(3-4) where both the teams were very weak to the extent that we are about to streamroll them

Good point. Another thing was that we could hardly win a single series/finals which could have been due to a captain's inadequacies too.
<fineleg mode>
We lost series against teams like WI and drew with Eng (at that time, every other test playing team was trashing these teams) at HOME!
</fineleg mode>

May be it depends on the captain when you don't win the finals. But then SG did win a few finals ( Natwest/ Champions Trophy). He deserves credit there.
But how can you compare that performance with a captain who hasn't reached any finals at all?! For get finals, even semi-finals are illusive to the team under his captaincy.............whom will you blame for this................the captain surely?
Because if you blame SG for all those final loses, you must also blame RD for not reaching any finals.

[TheWall]

Is there a good statistical measure of captaincy? I think not.
Wins/Losses alone don't give the whole story ... among contemporaries,
Ricky Ponting surely has the best Win/Loss records in both tests and One-dayers, but that
does not necessarily prove that he is the best captain. People speak
of Flemming as one of the best among contemporaries, but his win/loss
record must be pretty poor in comparison.

Runs scored against you is one of the measures suggested. But
obviously, if you don't have good bowlers/face really good batsmen on
belters (as is getting to be the norm), you will have a large number
of runs against you. Also this does not allow you to compare between
captains of different times, as the scoring pattern has changed
dramatically in tests with the advent of one day cricket, and in one
dayers with time. There used to be a time, when the usual strategy was
to play the first fifteen overs of a one day game carefully, and up
the run rate during the slog overs. This began to change during 1992
(Greatbach, Lara), and was rendered completely unrecognizable in 1996
by many led by Jaysuriya. And now, the 15 overs period has been
changed to 20. Barring the new phenomenon of having some low scoring
pitches these days (like in WI/ recent SA), I am sure present captains
would be hard done by this measure.

In short, captaincy, for what it is worth, can only be measured in
'smaller' things like reading how much a pitch is worth, when to
attack and when to defend, that are/can not conveniently available on
a cricinfo statguru. It is somewhat easier to record the number of
terrible gaffes (like forgetting to give his best bowler on the day a
full quota), but even those are tricky.
So, it is probably meaningless to attach much significance to the
comparison of SG-GC captaincy records.

WW, well said. DD, well said too.

Too many variables in the captain evaluation business. Not least of all the kind of players at your disposal. The best laid plans, the smartest strategies will not work unless the players are capable of carrying them out.

So lets ditch this stats-based captain comparison business.

[m]

Sometimes, I wonder if this DG consists of hypocrites... The same set of people who posted in this thread glorified SG's record against GC's  in another thread, whereas here they belittle RD's record(not that it is great...but  )...

Same on Sujith somasundar's thread too.. He broke into the team after performances in domestics,unlike the Noel Davids or Udit patels ...

Would help if you could actually look at his Domestic record ...his achievements when he actually got drafted into the Indian Team....again thanks to GRV, only....and more important, the performances of other batsmen in the domestic circuit in the same period when he got drafted...

Then we could actually discuss hypocrisy.....Thankfully, inspite of Brijesh's all out effort, Udit is not being pushed into the big league...an embarassment we can do without...One Mr Dharmichand now in Singapore/ Malaysia will be able to tell you better....

http://ind.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1995-96/IND_LOCAL/RANJI/STATS/IND_LOCAL_RJI_AVS_BAT_MOST_RUNS.html
Check the stats ..He is 3rd in the list of most runs for that year with one less innings than the top 2 people ..Moreover, he was the  opener .. The same list also shows SG having a very poor Ranji that year..So how did they select him for England tour of 1996?   Obviously,his record for the previous years are good and he capitalised on his chances, whereas somasunder did not and he did not get any more.... Don't tell me GRV,who played the game with such fairness can be accused of bias..

[poondu]

Good post m