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[Blwe_torch]

I hope, the euphoria of the fantastic Indian victory does not blind us to believe that the maladies of Indian cricket are resolved.
The credit for this great victory squarely goes to MS Dhoni, Yuvraj, Sachin and the Indian bowlers who got the early breakthroughs.
I hope Mr. Greg Chappel do not end up claiming the credits, either directly or indirectly.
I am eagerly waiting for his media-window, where in he will wax eloquent about how his remarkable coaching has revolutionized Indian cricket!
I mean, nothing can be further from the truth. The above mentioned players were proven performers even before the advent of Mr. Chappel.
His emphasis on fitness holds no water, as we see, key players getting side-lined due to injury. Off the memory, I can recall 3 key-players retiring or under-performing due to injury: Sehwag, Harbhajan and Zaheer Khan.
The last 2 are proven match-winners, not to mention the first one, who is still performing albeit, intermittently.
Sachin is getting affected by cramps quite often and don't tell me that this is due to ageing! At his age, he is supposed to perform at his peak.
Vital catches are being dropped, so much for the improvements and emphasis on fielding!
Running between the wickets leave much to be desired.
Then where is the improvement? Its already 6 or 8 months since Chappel has taken over!
Most players, although self-motivated, needs the moral backing of the team management, the Captain and the coach.
Now, it seems they are left to themselves, nursing their own wounds and bruised egos.
The discredit for this must surely land on Chappel's lap as because, he has taken up the mantle of the all- important Manager of the side.
His friend, Ian Frazer has suddenly discovered that Indians can't bowl fast, because thay are not strong physically! As if, we didn't know that already!
I believe, he is biting more than he can chew, Mr. Chappel.
His personal agenda is ruling the roost in deciding India's cricketing fate.
He can make do with even Gautam Gambhir, just in order to keep Saurav Ganguly out of contention. The later's match-winning capacity far out-weighs his lack of fielding powess, if any.
His favorite catch-phrase is 'Team for the future'.
Our Board and the National selectors have collectively surrendered their mind to this megalomaniac and allowed him to take us for a ride on his fancy.
I feel, Chappel has a lot to do, if he is sincere about Indian cricket, and for that, he must keep aside his narrow personal agendas and concentrate on achieving a balanced Indian side, based on experience and cricketing acumen.

[dhruvdeepak]

oh please blwe, quit with the witless diatribes about GC this and GC that.
we know what is happening with indian cricket, and are not going to be taken for a ride on the SG-bandwagon or the GC one either.
facts are, we've won 2 ODIs, and lost a Test.
not exactly any reason to pop the expensive champagne.
each and every line of this post of yours either:
a) cannot be proven factually
b) is your own personal speculation
c) is a glaring example of unproductive, time-wasting pot-shotting.

in the words of the immortal inzy, 'iz not a sporting cirkut'.

[Blwe_torch]

Well Dhruv, I won't give you a direct reply...but let me regal you with a vintage Inzi joke, of which, you have a great collection. I think, you might have heard it before.

The cricketers like Inzi, due to their weakness in English, have pre-prepared speeches. One such example, given below:

Tony Grieg ( Interviewer)-: So, Inzi, thats fantastic, your wife is pregnent again, for the 2nd time, if I am not mistaken!

Inzi-: ( obviously not understanding) -: Bismillah-e rehman -e- Rahim! All credit goes to the boys. Everyone, worked hard for it and especially Afridi. It was a very tight situation, when he went in. Without him and Youhana, who also stroked hard, it was not possible!..Bob Woolmer also kept a close watch and pushed very hard in the end. Inshallah!


Jokes apart, I believe in what I have mentioned above. I am not going to forget in a hurry, how unfairly GC treated our favorite player SG.

[sudzz]

Blwe, I want to see SG play and I also dont think GC is doing such a great job but come on this post while correct in most parts sounds like we just want to see the back of GC for the sake seeing his back not for any strategic reason...Its not like that at all, if he had sacked SG with dignity and let him come back as a stronger player that we all know and like there would have been no problem at all.

By the way nice joke is it real or made up?

[Blwe_torch]

Thanks sudzz!
I am not sure abt the joke although!...May be real...Dhruv may know better!

[reverse sweep]

Chappell must really be a superman to be able to keep the worlds best cricketer out of the Indian Cricket team. Imagine the all powerful chairman of BCCI, 5 selectors, the indian cricket captain, all the knowledgeable senior players in the team, the entire Indian poppulation.....all clamouring for the prince and all being single handedly defeated by Chappell. He must be bigger than God, I tell you...

[Blwe_torch]

Chappell must really be a superman to be able to keep the worlds best cricketer out of the Indian Cricket team. Imagine the all powerful chairman of BCCI, 5 selectors, the indian cricket captain, all the knowledgeable senior players in the team, the entire Indian poppulation.....all clamouring for the prince and all being single handedly defeated by Chappell. He must be bigger than God, I tell you...

It seems you are not far from truth!

[MockTurtle]

Chappell must really be a superman to be able to keep the worlds best cricketer out of the Indian Cricket team. Imagine the all powerful chairman of BCCI, 5 selectors, the indian cricket captain, all the knowledgeable senior players in the team, the entire Indian poppulation.....all clamouring for the prince and all being single handedly defeated by Chappell. He must be bigger than God, I tell you...

It seems you are not far from truth!

did ya see his latest interview? players have to become "better persons" as well. :-)

[dextrous]

lol...i suppose we don't need to pay $500,000 for a spiritual consultant now

[Blwe_torch]

Actually Dex.....Baba Rajneesh or Mahesh Yogi would have done a better job of coaching India.
If you call GC a coach....then the above two are no jerks!

[MockTurtle]

Actually Dex.....Baba Rajneesh or Mahesh Yogi would have done a better job of coaching India.
If you call GC a coach....then the above two are no jerks!

but they aren't MBEs and can't match our Guru Sri Sri Grumpy in their pursuits of excellence...

[Blwe_torch]

reverse sweep is happily 'smiting' us!
He doesn't like when someone says something against his 'shadow-guru'...GC!

[MockTurtle]

reverse sweep is happily 'smiting' us!
He doesn't like when someone says something against his 'shadow-guru'...GC!

ohh, i love being smitten ;-)

[Blwe_torch]

I don't mind either...in fact, I revel in my unpopularity..ha ha ha!

[Sahir]

Blwe,
In that sense, coaches never win or lose games, players do.  The coach is simplay responsible for the final record.  Therefore, you take the good with the bad, and weigh everything up in the end.  Chappell does get some credit for the improved ODI performance, just as gets some blame for the Test performance.  You cannot simply credit someone with the team losses, without crediting them for the victories.

[dextrous]

Blwe,
In that sense, coaches never win or lose games, players do.  The coach is simplay responsible for the final record.  Therefore, you take the good with the bad, and weigh everything up in the end.  Chappell does get some credit for the improved ODI performance, just as gets some blame for the Test performance.  You cannot simply credit someone with the team losses, without crediting them for the victories.

You can credit someone for what they do -- you can credit Ganguly for backing Yuvraj and Harbhajan. You can discredit Ganguly for backing Agarkar in tests. You can credit Woolmer for getting Akthar to give his best. You can credit Ranatunga for supporting Murali. These have to be some tangibles. You CANNOT just credit someone because a team wins. Ganguly and Wright cannot simply be credit for India's success, unless backed up by certain actions.

Chappell's case is particularly interesting because we all know how many negatives there are with his presence. However, positives have to be shown. Dhoni cannot be credited to Chappell, the same way Harbhajan was credited to Ganguly. There's no background for that. Opening with Pathan cannot be credited with Chappell, because it was Tendulkar's idea. Perhaps, Pathan's batting CAN be credited to Chappell.

But the sad thing is we are comparing Ganguly and Chappell -- that shows Chappell is way off in his duties as a coach -- he shouldn't have such a prominent role.

[Sahir]

"But the sad thing is we are comparing Ganguly and Chappell -- that shows Chappell is way off in his duties as a coach -- he shouldn't have such a prominent role."

You along with others are comparing Gnaguly with Chappell.  He certainly is not doing it himself.  Furthermore, I disagree completely on your assessment of what a coach can and cannot be credited for-- it all boils down to the bottom line-- winning.  If the team is winning, there are no problems, and if the team is losing, there are plenty of problems, regardless of what you have done.  That is reality.  Much of the credit can be subjective.  If you say Dhoni was discovered by Ganguly, I could say Chappell has turned him into a great finisher and really improved his batting consistency, with both his average and strike rate skyrocketing.  I could also point to Dhoni's improved glovework.  Certainly Yuvraj has taken his batting to another level.  The ground fielding is better than it has ever been.  However, what I am trying to say, and what I am sure any coach will agree with, is that in the end the player improves or gets worse for himself.  The coach can only facilitate that process, but not actually make it happen.  Ditto for a captain.  In the end, the credit should go to the individual players, while crediting the coach a little, especially if the players themselves continue to credit the coach for their improvement.  The sad thing is that for most it seems to have become Chappell v. Ganguly.  If you support Ganguly, that means you have to hate Chappell.  If you support Chappell, you have to hate Ganguly.  I don't see it that way at all.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  BTW, the reason Chappell is so much in the limelight has everything to do with the leaked e-mail and ensuing Ganguly-Chappell saga.  If that had not occurred, even if Ganguly had been later sacked as captain, the attention would not be as much on Chappell.  It is simply the media that will consistently portray everything as about Chappell, and like pawns we follow.

[suraj]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

[dextrous]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

What has being a moderator got anything to do with having an opinion about the Indian team coach?!

[dextrous]

"But the sad thing is we are comparing Ganguly and Chappell -- that shows Chappell is way off in his duties as a coach -- he shouldn't have such a prominent role."

You along with others are comparing Gnaguly with Chappell.  He certainly is not doing it himself.  Furthermore, I disagree completely on your assessment of what a coach can and cannot be credited for-- it all boils down to the bottom line-- winning.  If the team is winning, there are no problems, and if the team is losing, there are plenty of problems, regardless of what you have done.  That is reality.  Much of the credit can be subjective.  If you say Dhoni was discovered by Ganguly, I could say Chappell has turned him into a great finisher and really improved his batting consistency, with both his average and strike rate skyrocketing.  I could also point to Dhoni's improved glovework.  Certainly Yuvraj has taken his batting to another level.  The ground fielding is better than it has ever been.  However, what I am trying to say, and what I am sure any coach will agree with, is that in the end the player improves or gets worse for himself.  The coach can only facilitate that process, but not actually make it happen.  Ditto for a captain.  In the end, the credit should go to the individual players, while crediting the coach a little, especially if the players themselves continue to credit the coach for their improvement.  The sad thing is that for most it seems to have become Chappell v. Ganguly.  If you support Ganguly, that means you have to hate Chappell.  If you support Chappell, you have to hate Ganguly.  I don't see it that way at all.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  BTW, the reason Chappell is so much in the limelight has everything to do with the leaked e-mail and ensuing Ganguly-Chappell saga.  If that had not occurred, even if Ganguly had been later sacked as captain, the attention would not be as much on Chappell.  It is simply the media that will consistently portray everything as about Chappell, and like pawns we follow.

The two weren't mutually exclusive, until Chappell started his crusade against Ganguly. Media might have exaggerrated what happend, but it is no secret that Ganguly is not in the team right now because of one individual alone. It is not me who is comparing the Ganguly era with the Chappell era -- everyone is! It's not called the Dravid era--it's called the Chappell era. Should it be that way?

Winning isn't everything in analyzing a coach, if that were so Whatmore wouldn't be recognized as a top coach (even before the Sri Lankan WC win or even right now, while he's with Bangladesh).

Chappell has been in the news so much ever since he came -- this shouldn't be the case. He comments on selection issues when others like Woolmer say their role is to help cricketers. Sorry, but Chappell cannot be a one man administrator/coach/selector.

And while you can say Chappell trained Dhoni, etc. Ganguly's failure/contributions in supporting certain players is well documented, so are his strategies (not all of which I agree with, mind you) but to say that every Indian win or loss has something to do with the captain or coach is ridiculous.

[Cover Point]

It seems you are not far from truth!

Then you better be afraid ... very afraid. What kind of Nastik are you praying to? SG doesnt have the sense or respect of deferring to God?

Not only is he not coming into the team .. he is also going to Hell. Poor SAP. Lets all pray for his soul.

Khuda uski aatma ko shaanti de!

[Sahir]

"And while you can say Chappell trained Dhoni, etc. Ganguly's failure/contributions in supporting certain players is well documented, so are his strategies (not all of which I agree with, mind you) but to say that every Indian win or loss has something to do with the captain or coach is ridiculous."

That is exactly the opposite of what I am saying.  What I said is that in the end, the players themselves are reponsible.  However, that is what a coach will be judged on, period.  Whatmore would not be considered a great coach if he did not have a great winning record with Sri Lanka, and before Sri Lanka, at the first-class level.

"but it is no secret that Ganguly is not in the team right now because of one individual alone"

Disagree completely.  Who said it is only because of one person?  That is what everyone assumes.  You think the chief selector Kiran More wants Ganguly in the team?  Whatever you may think of More, he is the chief selector.  BTW, Ganguly was in the Test team, and that too, despite leaked reports that Chappell did not want him there.  Ganguly is not in the ODI team where there were many calls for his axing even prior to Chappell's arrival.  I realize that there can be a strong case for Ganguly's inclusion based on his past record in ODIs.  However, I also realize, there can be a strong case for his exclusion based on his ODI record over 2 years or so, which is very poor.  Therefore, to simply dismiss his exclusion as the vendetta of one man, I feel is misguided.  It is reasonable to exculde him based on merits.  Similarly, it is also possible to back his inclusion on the basis of merits.  It really is in the eye of the beholder.  But, to just say Chappell is the only reason Ganguly is not in the ODI team is wrong.

[suraj]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

What has being a moderator got anything to do with having an opinion about the Indian team coach?!

If u call this opinion, fine. To me looks like every second post that Blwe has is a tirade against GC. It seems if GC breathes, Blwe will write abt how detrimental that is to an Indian team.

Why is that harder to digest- because if he is just a member no harm done. But when you have someone contributing as a moderator, there needs to be a certain amount of objectivity. You can say that it doesn't matter but the fact is the moderator does reflect wht the DG beleves in. I know you guys had issues that the other DG or Prem's blog had a certain bias but its the same here when you make a guy like him the moderator.

The difference is obvious when you read Sahir's or Kban's posts- they can criticize the same player/coach that they admire and vice versa. Blwe is exactly wht he thinks GC is- a man with 1 blindsighted agenda. Even if India wins te WC with GC, I am sure he will write that we could have won it even more easily if GC was not there and SG was playing.

Guess that's wht you vision this DG to be- a biased venting out forum rather than an objective cricket discussion platform

[gouravk]

Oh yes, his polluted Aussie breath ... that is likely to cause serious diseases to our youngsters ... like middle fingertitis etc 

[dextrous]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

What has being a moderator got anything to do with having an opinion about the Indian team coach?!

If u call this opinion, fine. To me looks like every second post that Blwe has is a tirade against GC. It seems if GC breathes, Blwe will write abt how detrimental that is to an Indian team.

Why is that harder to digest- because if he is just a member no harm done. But when you have someone contributing as a moderator, there needs to be a certain amount of objectivity. You can say that it doesn't matter but the fact is the moderator does reflect wht the DG beleves in. I know you guys had issues that the other DG or Prem's blog had a certain bias but its the same here when you make a guy like him the moderator.

The difference is obvious when you read Sahir's or Kban's posts- they can criticize the same player/coach that they admire and vice versa. Blwe is exactly wht he thinks GC is- a man with 1 blindsighted agenda. Even if India wins te WC with GC, I am sure he will write that we could have won it even more easily if GC was not there and SG was playing.

Guess that's wht you vision this DG to be- a biased venting out forum rather than an objective cricket discussion platform

He can criticize anyone he wants, as can anyone else. I believe everyone on this forum is mature enough to make their own decisions, regardless of whether a moderator says something or not. There's no curtailing anybody's freedom of speech unless it is offensive to a member in this forum. If GC was a member here, we could argue if Blwe was attacking him. Besides, what is "objective" if not an illusion. There's no such thing as being "objective" -- being "objective" is nothing more than taking a position that's biased itself 

[sudzz]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

Suraj, where is your sense of objectivity? why are you going overboard and asking for Blwe to be sacked just because he is got a strong opinion on the subject.

Lets remember that a mod's job is not to judge the quality of the post it is more to do with laying the ground rules and monitoring adherence and also facilitate discussions. I think all the mod's are doing a decent job and when a mod is polarised to one end it make discussions more fun as there are more people against than for the discussion.

[Blwe_torch]

Suraj, where is your sense of objectivity? why are you going overboard and asking for Blwe to be sacked just because he is got a strong opinion on the subject.

Lets remember that a mod's job is not to judge the quality of the post it is more to do with laying the ground rules and monitoring adherence and also facilitate discussions. I think all the mod's are doing a decent job and when a mod is polarised to one end it make discussions more fun as there are more people against than for the discussion.

Thank you sudzz!

[CLR James]

I think the jury is still out on GC's performance as coach of the Indian team. It will be tested to the hilt when we move out of the subcontinent, and adjust to new pitches and conditions. There are indeed pertinent questions that can be posed at this point, and they will be tough to answer if one is defending GC (just as an all out condemnation of his performance as coach will be premature too). However, there are a few things that can be said, in terms of the 'specter' of Chappel.

1. He has assumed a larger than life figure that is perhaps unwise for a coach to assume in Indian cricket. Especially if you are a non-playing contributor. His success or failure will not be directly visible to either the paying public or the blogging classes, hence controversy will always follow him. He will have no direct control over the application of his decisions or skills; Chappel cannot get in there and bat for Raina to prove that he is a better bet than SG. On the other hand, SG can technically score a double hundred in the next test match and make a fool out of Chappel. This is not a new tradition in Indian cricket. Administrators and officials like Anthony Demello, Vizzi, NKP Salve, Dungarpur etc. have assumed larger than life, controversial profiles. Kiran More is the latest entrant in that group. But the difference between such officials and the coach is that every move in the cricket field is not linked to the actions of the former. Demello was not interviewed every day after a day's play about why Mankad did not flight the ball; Dungarpur was not quizzed incessantly about Kapil's follow through or Amarnath's backlift.

2. Because his is a non-playing role, GC has further complicated his position by polarizing opinions and emotions in Indian cricket. Again, a player in a similar situation is in a much better position than a coach, because he can answer, demonstrate, or prove with the bat or the ball. Hence, a SRT is in a much better position if his every move in the crease is scrutinized; he is a master of batsmanship and he is the primary demonstrator of that. But if GC's every statement (recent interview), gesture (what was that expression when SG took that catch at Lahore?) is monitored, they will generate endless controversies. He cannot shut people up once and for all by scoring a hundred. When he says that players have to be better 'persons', it really comes across as a strange and sinister comment. It is fine that GC, by his own admission, wants to approach the game as a coach in the same 'uncompromising manner' as he did as a player, but he should realize that the modalities of the two are different, even though the spirit might be the same. People in the press and the grape vines are already onto the next big thing -- signs of tension between Dravid and GC.....Is it Chappel's team or Dravid's team?

3. Because of 1 and 2, he is in danger of proving a bad man manager. By polarizing opinions and inviting close scrutiny on each and every thing (how fast did Irfan bowl between overs 3.5 to 5.1? To what extent did AK praise GC in his last interview?) he might, over time, increase the pressure on the team, especially the youngsters. He should learn to keep his mouth shut. I mean look we have earlier played Yashpal Sharma in the place of GR Vishwanath, or Raman Lamba instead of Mohinder Amarnath. Has the sh-t ever hit the fan so hard? Is it just SG's fault, or the fault of a few thousand Bengalis that people are so high strung about everything? I am not exonerating the latter from blame, but More and Chappel have caused a lot fo harm by shooting off their mouths.   

[Cover Point]

I think not giving GC the credit he deserves is unfair. He has delivered so far at least in ODI's and outside of that one test in Karachi in tests as well as can be expected. You can only judge him for what he has had an opportunity to do. If we havent played abroad so far its not his fault.

I do see a different indian team out there under GC and I like what I see (atleast in ODI's). GC has turned us into an AWESOME Fielding outfit. Even a few months ago we were struggling there.

I never heard us being referred as a better fielding outfit to ANYONE before!

We have been chasing well. Earlier we had problems chasing even against minnows. You can take credit away from GC/RD by saying oh its because person X is in good form or Y is a new player but if he gets blamed for our debacle in Karachi he also gets credit for what the team has done well.

Teams have a tendency to mould themselves in their coach's image and thats what we have seen so far with the Indians.

I think you Gangulians are so one eyed in your opinions ...that just because GC doesnt see SG in India's future you wont give him credit for what he is accomplishing.

[jaat69]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

Suraj, I think you are over-reacting.
Here we are free to discuss any ‘cricket related issue’. And, that freedom belongs to all members and moderators alike.
Greg Chappel is a ‘cricket related issue’, not Blwe.
Blwe is only a moderator ( as good as any of us fellow-bloggers) of this DG and attacking him is equivalent to personal attack, which we all tried to avoid in the other DG, but for no avail.
I can understand your discomfiture, when one of your favorite personality is being criticized. But we all face this situetion in life. Learn to take this with a pinch of salt!
I am a regular visitor to this DG and although I contribute less, I enjoy the variety of topics covered here. The moderators including Blwe, deserve a lot of praise for their hard work IMO. You cannot deny that they have done a good work. Can you honestly?
BTW, I have never seen you react as if someone has stepped upon your tail, when Saurav Ganguly was singularly attacked in the other DG! Where was your conscience then?
I am sure people will appreciate your viewpoints if you regularly contribute constructively in this DG, which I have noticed, you haven’t.
Do you have the moral right to criticize others?
Although, let me admit, you are free to do whatever you like and nobody is going to censor you for that.
Just my two cents…….

[suraj]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

Suraj, where is your sense of objectivity? why are you going overboard and asking for Blwe to be sacked just because he is got a strong opinion on the subject.

Lets remember that a mod's job is not to judge the quality of the post it is more to do with laying the ground rules and monitoring adherence and also facilitate discussions. I think all the mod's are doing a decent job and when a mod is polarised to one end it make discussions more fun as there are more people against than for the discussion.

Ok let me answer 1 point at a time

When you talk abt sense of objectivity- if you read my post carefully I mentioned the guys who were objective (Sahir and Kban) and in responding to Dex I also mentioned the reason why I feel a highly biased moderator reflects badly on the DG. Being objective does not mean not having any opinions and it is my opinion that someone representing the DG does not need to have every second post as a tirade against one person. Like Blwe has a very strong opinion about GC, I have one against him on this issue and not every one. So the opinion is more issue based than personal. On the other hand, if you have followed his posts, everything that GC does or does not do is wrong. Likewise everything that SG does or does not do is right. I am still in favor of freedom of speech and that he can continue to do that but firmly believe that then he should give up being a representative of the DG. That's my belief and its up to you to take it or leave it.

When you say a mod job is just to monitor adherence to rules, do you seriously believe that bias does not play a role in that. As for facilitating discussions- fair enuff. I guess if you enjoy TOI kind of sensational headlines with no substance, every one has a right to pick their poison. Personally CLR James, Sahir, Kban etc posts excite me a lot more. And Blwe can have these posts even without being a moderator.

[dextrous]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

Suraj, where is your sense of objectivity? why are you going overboard and asking for Blwe to be sacked just because he is got a strong opinion on the subject.

Lets remember that a mod's job is not to judge the quality of the post it is more to do with laying the ground rules and monitoring adherence and also facilitate discussions. I think all the mod's are doing a decent job and when a mod is polarised to one end it make discussions more fun as there are more people against than for the discussion.

Ok let me answer 1 point at a time

When you talk abt sense of objectivity- if you read my post carefully I mentioned the guys who were objective (Sahir and Kban) and in responding to Dex I also mentioned the reason why I feel a highly biased moderator reflects badly on the DG. Being objective does not mean not having any opinions and it is my opinion that someone representing the DG does not need to have every second post as a tirade against one person. Like Blwe has a very strong opinion about GC, I have one against him on this issue and not every one. So the opinion is more issue based than personal. On the other hand, if you have followed his posts, everything that GC does or does not do is wrong. Likewise everything that SG does or does not do is right. I am still in favor of freedom of speech and that he can continue to do that but firmly believe that then he should give up being a representative of the DG. That's my belief and its up to you to take it or leave it.

When you say a mod job is just to monitor adherence to rules, do you seriously believe that bias does not play a role in that. As for facilitating discussions- fair enuff. I guess if you enjoy TOI kind of sensational headlines with no substance, every one has a right to pick their poison. Personally CLR James, Sahir, Kban etc posts excite me a lot more. And Blwe can have these posts even without being a moderator.

You're merely giving layers of imposed logic on "objectivity" whereupon you define it in a way that suits you--i.e. you are "issue based" and blwe is not. Humans don't exist without bias, nobody is less or more biased--indifferent perhaps. Most of the topics blwe starts are often taken from newspaper articles, sure he analyzes them favorably to prove his point, but that's quite clever.

The other point is about "mod job" -- what exactly do you think we do that will so greatly impact our judgement about a post or what have we done that has shown our 'bias' about Greg Chappell affect a decision? I'm greatly puzzled.

[jaat69]

And Blwe can have these posts even without being a moderator.

The GC brigade seems hell-bent on dismissing people from their posts, if the later dare say anything against the Lord Fuhrer!
SG was the first casualty.
Wow...great going!
Keep it up GC and your brand of merry-men!
I would rather stay quiet and watch the fun!

[suraj]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

Suraj, I think you are over-reacting.
Here we are free to discuss any ‘cricket related issue’. And, that freedom belongs to all members and moderators alike.
Greg Chappel is a ‘cricket related issue’, not Blwe.
Blwe is only a moderator ( as good as any of us fellow-bloggers) of this DG and attacking him is equivalent to personal attack, which we all tried to avoid in the other DG, but for no avail.
I can understand your discomfiture, when one of your favorite personality is being criticized. But we all face this situetion in life. Learn to take this with a pinch of salt!
I am a regular visitor to this DG and although I contribute less, I enjoy the variety of topics covered here. The moderators including Blwe, deserve a lot of praise for their hard work IMO. You cannot deny that they have done a good work. Can you honestly?
BTW, I have never seen you react as if someone has stepped upon your tail, when Saurav Ganguly was singularly attacked in the other DG! Where was your conscience then?
I am sure people will appreciate your viewpoints if you regularly contribute constructively in this DG, which I have noticed, you haven’t.
Do you have the moral right to criticize others?
Although, let me admit, you are free to do whatever you like and nobody is going to censor you for that.
Just my two cents…….

Again 1 issue at a time

1. GC as a cricket issue- I couldn't agree more there but when you attack everything abt a person day in and night out in your posts fo rmnths are you really discussing just cricket. If India loses- its all GC's fault and SG's abscence caused it, if India wins its no credit to GC but rather dhonis and pathans doing it. Freedom does not mean one cannnot make suggestions that will make something better. If Blwe has the same posts as a regular member instead of being a moderator, how does that curtail his freedom.

2. Personal attack on Blwe: Dex had put up posts asking for members to provide suggestions and critique to make the DG better and I honestly felt that this was a neccessary step that will go a long way to promote it. Obviously the responses suggest any negative  input is considered a personal attack but if I were to tow the line and praise blwe, Dex etc to death- I will be hailed as a great contributor to the blog. I don't understand if that' what you really want then why does Teddy go marketing on the other DG to attract more members or why does Dex ask for suggestions. You have enuff ppl here kissing ass! again, why wud I have something personal against Blwe- I might praise him for another issue but criticize him for this one.

3. I can understand your discomfiture, when one of your favorite personality is being criticized. But we all face this situetion in life. Learn to take this with a pinch of salt! This one is my favourite. Dude you obviously don't know me and have not read my posts in the past. And may I ask who did you see as my favourite plare in your magic crystal ball. Seriously, assumption is the mother of all screw ups and you already assumed I am on one side of the fence. If you have seen my posts in the past I have praised and criticized SRT, RD, SG ,GC et al on different issues. Without going into details, it has been performance based vs personality based.you talk abt my conscience when SG was attacked- again my stand has been appreciate whts good abt him, criticize whts bad. Select him when he is performing well and it helps the team, drop him when he is not.But I can't help you if you have already formed pre-concieved notions abt my bias

4. I am sure people will appreciate your viewpoints if you regularly contribute constructively in this DG: Thx for deciding wht my moral obligation is to the DG. Dude I hold 2 jobs, work over the weekends and lots of time enjoy glancing through others' writings. you talk abt freedom and in the same breath make it mandatory for a person to first "contribute" a lot before posting a quick note on something that I thot was blatantly obvious. So do you think I have contributed enuff today with my long replies?? Oh no nohow could you- I didn't spend hrs criticizing one person and praising another. Instead, I tried to reply on an issue by issue basis. That's not contribution- that is purely personal attacks, right!!!!

On a final note, I remember being very hesitant to join as a member here but then did because of Kban's e-mail to me which sounded very reasonable. My suggestion now is if you want only certain members- you can specify the criteria outright

Has to hate GC
has to love SG
Cannot say anything against Blwe
has to contribute by posting 900 lines every 30 mins or not allowed to post etc etc

Still hope saner senses prevail here rather than sensationalist ones!!!

[suraj]

What a great DG this is- we have Blwe who is one of the most biased blogger acting as a GLOBAL MODERATOR and then we have Dex who is slightly better but still has only 1 favourite.

Thank god for the Sahirs and Kbans who bring some objectivity. Blwe shd be removed from the moderator post right now for more ppl to show up on this DG

Suraj, where is your sense of objectivity? why are you going overboard and asking for Blwe to be sacked just because he is got a strong opinion on the subject.

Lets remember that a mod's job is not to judge the quality of the post it is more to do with laying the ground rules and monitoring adherence and also facilitate discussions. I think all the mod's are doing a decent job and when a mod is polarised to one end it make discussions more fun as there are more people against than for the discussion.

Ok let me answer 1 point at a time

When you talk abt sense of objectivity- if you read my post carefully I mentioned the guys who were objective (Sahir and Kban) and in responding to Dex I also mentioned the reason why I feel a highly biased moderator reflects badly on the DG. Being objective does not mean not having any opinions and it is my opinion that someone representing the DG does not need to have every second post as a tirade against one person. Like Blwe has a very strong opinion about GC, I have one against him on this issue and not every one. So the opinion is more issue based than personal. On the other hand, if you have followed his posts, everything that GC does or does not do is wrong. Likewise everything that SG does or does not do is right. I am still in favor of freedom of speech and that he can continue to do that but firmly believe that then he should give up being a representative of the DG. That's my belief and its up to you to take it or leave it.

When you say a mod job is just to monitor adherence to rules, do you seriously believe that bias does not play a role in that. As for facilitating discussions- fair enuff. I guess if you enjoy TOI kind of sensational headlines with no substance, every one has a right to pick their poison. Personally CLR James, Sahir, Kban etc posts excite me a lot more. And Blwe can have these posts even without being a moderator.

You're merely giving layers of imposed logic on "objectivity" whereupon you define it in a way that suits you--i.e. you are "issue based" and blwe is not. Humans don't exist without bias, nobody is less or more biased--indifferent perhaps. Most of the topics blwe starts are often taken from newspaper articles, sure he analyzes them favorably to prove his point, but that's quite clever.

The other point is about "mod job" -- what exactly do you think we do that will so greatly impact our judgement about a post or what have we done that has shown our 'bias' about Greg Chappell affect a decision? I'm greatly puzzled.

Dex,

See to me this post of yours is issue based vs sudzz "overboard" comment.

objectivity We can dissect this forever but I do strongly feel I am more issue based than Blwe. If others don't see it, I really don't understand that but that is their opinion

mod job I can beat this to death but doesn't seem like you are interested in the "representative" aspect of being a moderator andthe perception it generates vs just the associated duties. Compare poor little me and Blwe, don't you think Blwe represents the DG more than I do as a moderator? To me it carries some additional responsibility of being objective but maybe not to others.

[suraj]

And Blwe can have these posts even without being a moderator.

The GC brigade seems hell-bent on dismissing people from their posts, if the later dare say anything against the Lord Fuhrer!
SG was the first casualty.
Wow...great going!
Keep it up GC and your brand of merry-men!
I would rather stay quiet and watch the fun!

Don't even know how to respond to someone who has decided wht brigade I belong to? Can only say I wud say the same thing if a moderator went on a sensationalist tirade against SG in every post whether he does good or bad.

Don't even know wht u were doing posting this- starts with a pre-concieved notion that GC does some personal favors to me and sent me here to remove anyone against him and ends with the only part I liked abt your post- that you will stay quiet. Really wish if you had nothing substantial to write you would have made the decision before posting this.

[dextrous]

1. GC as a cricket issue- I couldn't agree more there but when you attack everything abt a person day in and night out in your posts fo rmnths are you really discussing just cricket. If India loses- its all GC's fault and SG's abscence caused it, if India wins its no credit to GC but rather dhonis and pathans doing it. Freedom does not mean one cannnot make suggestions that will make something better. If Blwe has the same posts as a regular member instead of being a moderator, how does that curtail his freedom.

Most of it is your personal opinion, for a group of individuals (including myself) who have been discussing SG’s performance every day for the past five months or so, it hardly makes sense for you to suddenly take a high moral ground and look down upon Blwe because he’s doing so. I don’t understand your point – so what he’s anti-GC? So what Sahir is pro-Kaif? So what Teddy is pro-Gambhir? So what I’m pro-Dhoni? You haven’t posted here a lot, so I don’t know who your particular favorite player is but you get the point. As far as Teddy promoting goes, it seems to me that cross-promoting in both DGs has been going on for a while now. Anyway, that’s another matter and should be solved shortly.

2. Personal attack on Blwe: Dex had put up posts asking for members to provide suggestions and critique to make the DG better and I honestly felt that this was a neccessary step that will go a long way to promote it. Obviously the responses suggest any negative  input is considered a personal attack but if I were to tow the line and praise blwe, Dex etc to death- I will be hailed as a great contributor to the blog. I don't understand if that' what you really want then why does Teddy go marketing on the other DG to attract more members or why does Dex ask for suggestions. You have enuff ppl here kissing ass! again, why wud I have something personal against Blwe- I might praise him for another issue but criticize him for this one.

A lot of suggestions were taken and have been incorporated in the new site, which many people have seen. There are two kinds of people, those who give suggestions out of sincerity and others who merely use underhanded attacks (or in many cases just open attacks) and guise it under the name of “suggestion”.

3. I can understand your discomfiture, when one of your favorite personality is being criticized. But we all face this situetion in life. Learn to take this with a pinch of salt! This one is my favourite. Dude you obviously don't know me and have not read my posts in the past. And may I ask who did you see as my favourite plare in your magic crystal ball. Seriously, assumption is the mother of all screw ups and you already assumed I am on one side of the fence. If you have seen my posts in the past I have praised and criticized SRT, RD, SG ,GC et al on different issues. Without going into details, it has been performance based vs personality based.you talk abt my conscience when SG was attacked- again my stand has been appreciate whts good abt him, criticize whts bad. Select him when he is performing well and it helps the team, drop him when he is not.But I can't help you if you have already formed pre-concieved notions abt my bias

This isn’t referred to me, so I won’t answer.

4. I am sure people will appreciate your viewpoints if you regularly contribute constructively in this DG: Thx for deciding wht my moral obligation is to the DG. Dude I hold 2 jobs, work over the weekends and lots of time enjoy glancing through others' writings. you talk abt freedom and in the same breath make it mandatory for a person to first "contribute" a lot before posting a quick note on something that I thot was blatantly obvious. So do you think I have contributed enuff today with my long replies?? Oh no nohow could you- I didn't spend hrs criticizing one person and praising another. Instead, I tried to reply on an issue by issue basis. That's not contribution- that is purely personal attacks, right!!!!

I wouldn’t go as far as calling them personal attacks but I do find it odd that your only contributions so far have been about a member of the forum, rather than cricket. But, I will be the first to admit that you’re one of the first critics to have actually debated the points, rather than make random statements.

On a final note, I remember being very hesitant to join as a member here but then did because of Kban's e-mail to me which sounded very reasonable. My suggestion now is if you want only certain members- you can specify the criteria outright
Has to hate GC
has to love SG
Cannot say anything against Blwe
has to contribute by posting 900 lines every 30 mins or not allowed to post etc etc
Still hope saner senses prevail here rather than sensationalist ones!!!

Who is stopping you from contributing? Don’t get me wrong, Suraj, if you think I will leave your questions un-answered you’re mistaken – I will debate/discuss with you as much as you want. But can you deny that Blwe has contributed a lot to this forum? Even the harshest critics on this forum agree! Moderators aren’t going to stop any posts directed at a cricketer/coach/etc. If we did, you’d call us biased.

mod job I can beat this to death but doesn't seem like you are interested in the "representative" aspect of being a moderator andthe perception it generates vs just the associated duties. Compare poor little me and Blwe, don't you think Blwe represents the DG more than I do as a moderator? To me it carries some additional responsibility of being objective but maybe not to others.

No, I do not see the moderators as being representatives of the forum. I believe in very little moderation but there should be a moderator online at most times, just in case things do get ugly.

Here’s something I will suggest, Suraj: You cannot just post somewhere once asking for the removal of a moderator who has been very central to keeping the discussions going. It is not a criticism on you that you haven’t posted here but a simple fact that first you have to be acclimated to the new place, participate in discussions, before you can call for his removal! But I do hope you stick around and debate Blwe and me about cricket as you seem to be an articulate well-spoken individual. Not every post made here on this thread will be to your liking, but it would be foolish to attribute them all collectively to a DG with 150 members. Most people, like Silly Point, Dhruv, Fineleg, etc. who are certainly not pro-SG have rather enjoyed their stay.

[suraj]

1. GC as a cricket issue- I couldn't agree more there but when you attack everything abt a person day in and night out in your posts fo rmnths are you really discussing just cricket. If India loses- its all GC's fault and SG's abscence caused it, if India wins its no credit to GC but rather dhonis and pathans doing it. Freedom does not mean one cannnot make suggestions that will make something better. If Blwe has the same posts as a regular member instead of being a moderator, how does that curtail his freedom.

Most of it is your personal opinion, for a group of individuals (including myself) who have been discussing SG’s performance every day for the past five months or so, it hardly makes sense for you to suddenly take a high moral ground and look down upon Blwe because he’s doing so. I don’t understand your point – so what he’s anti-GC? So what Sahir is pro-Kaif? So what Teddy is pro-Gambhir? So what I’m pro-Dhoni? You haven’t posted here a lot, so I don’t know who your particular favorite player is but you get the point. As far as Teddy promoting goes, it seems to me that cross-promoting in both DGs has been going on for a while now. Anyway, that’s another matter and should be solved shortly.

Disagree:
If you read the posts and my comments, I had logic based on certain beliefs about wht will do the DG some good vs morals. Have to completetly disagree that I am being moralistsic or personal with Blwe- infact I already said there might be another issue where I might support Blwe where he is right.
About biases again, don't know how you got the impresssion any bias is wrong for me- you yourself are saying Sahir has a pro-Kaif bias and I already said I look forward to Sahir's posts. I was talking more about repeated sensationalist tirades that appear to be more of TOI/Jha stuff. Again if someone likes that, fine- my input was that if you have a representative doing thatit will put-off a lot of ppl who think like me. If you really don't care abt that it doesn't matter anyway.

A lot of suggestions were taken and have been incorporated in the new site, which many people have seen. There are two kinds of people, those who give suggestions out of sincerity and others who merely use underhanded attacks (or in many cases just open attacks) and guise it under the name of “suggestion”.


Unsure
If you are not hinting at me and just weary of troublemakers, I do understand that.

But, if you are hinting that I am just trying to attack senselessly- I don't think so because firstly wht wud I have against Blwe and secondly if I wanted to do that I wud not try to articulate ( the reasons and logic the way I am doing. This is where I really feel its not how valid the suggestion is but rather the wht the suggestion is about you are looking at. If the suggestion was senseless bravado cheering all those associated with the DG, you wud have considered it a valuable suggestion. But since it was criticism, you don't even want to consider the validity of it.


This isn’t referred to me, so I won’t answer.

N/A


I wouldn’t go as far as calling them personal attacks but I do find it odd that your only contributions so far have been about a member of the forum, rather than cricket. But, I will be the first to admit that you’re one of the first critics to have actually debated the points, rather than make random statements.

Completely agree

I used to post regularly on the other DG when it started but as I mentioned I am more of a reader now, whether that's right or wrong. Wht you are saying makes sense because it was a non-cricket first observation but i think it was a quick, very obvious (in my mind) observation which was not based ona a single post but accumulated from reading for a long time. Still kinda agree with you  though.

Who is stopping you from contributing? Don’t get me wrong, Suraj, if you think I will leave your questions un-answered you’re mistaken – I will debate/discuss with you as much as you want. But can you deny that Blwe has contributed a lot to this forum? Even the harshest critics on this forum agree! Moderators aren’t going to stop any posts directed at a cricketer/coach/etc. If we did, you’d call us biased.

Almost agree

But contribution or participation??- anyway his participation & contribution are definitely more than mine

 completely agree that posts directed at someone canot be stopped- that's not wht I suggested in the first place

No, I do not see the moderators as being representatives of the forum. I believe in very little moderation but there should be a moderator online at most times, just in case things do get ugly.

Competely disagree

Here’s something I will suggest, Suraj: You cannot just post somewhere once asking for the removal of a moderator who has been very central to keeping the discussions going. It is not a criticism on you that you haven’t posted here but a simple fact that first you have to be acclimated to the new place, participate in discussions, before you can call for his removal! But I do hope you stick around and debate Blwe and me about cricket as you seem to be an articulate well-spoken individual. Not every post made here on this thread will be to your liking, but it would be foolish to attribute them all collectively to a DG with 150 members. Most people, like Silly Point, Dhruv, Fineleg, etc. who are certainly not pro-SG have rather enjoyed their stay.

Competely agree

Hate to but agree that its not easy to come and ask for someone to be removed. It is however right in my opinion to bring the spirit behind the point to the table. As for contributing will have to ponder over that because if I disagree with the basic premise, not sure if should /will contribute. So if you don't hear from me again thx for replying patiently.

[jaat69]

[size=10pt]Hate to but agree that its not easy to come and ask for someone to be removed. It is however right in my opinion to bring the spirit behind the point to the table. As for contributing will have to ponder over that because if I disagree with the basic premise, not sure if should /will contribute. So if you don't hear from me again thx for replying patiently.[/size]

Even in the other DG most people contributed without bothering whether they agree/ disagree with the basic premise. Ideally that is the spirit of a Discussion Group. The same thing happens here. One cannot afford to sit on a high moral ground once he/she is participating in a DG. One needs to have a bit more patience.

[unni13]

I believe the mods are doing a great job here. No need to change anything.
Suraj, plz take it easy!