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[achutank]

B.S.A! (Backslapping alert).

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

BAH !!!! you think PP made some profound discovery or what..... I think this is a BS article and stating the obvious without offering any suggestions, ideas, or solutions as to alleviate the problem. Don't think itz worth the discussion. I will feel the same way even if it was written by LPS and posted by kban !!!!!

If ur consistent, fair enough. Thats ur POV then on this topic no matter who says it.

and what if he is not consistent. what if tomorrow he changes his mind, in your books is that allowed? me thnks you can't judge people's views on your own weighing scale, but only respond to the view that is there in front of you. then i would say that you are truly in yoga and doing the postasna.

now i am in the DG.

[Poochandi]

If one has AIDS it doesn't mean that he shouldn't act in a condom advertisement. Nothing wrong in that.

Butt,
Being a gay or lesbian, he/she doesn't have the right to talk against bisexuality. The big PP is doing here the same.

[MockTurtle]

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

what's the reality, f'leg?

This is so inviting, should I take the bait
I'd rather not...but a short one...

Reality is some(many?) ppl are not as interested in the perf of the team and what is best for the team. Rather they wish their star players are part of the 11/15. And many are against "foreigner" coach idea esp one who demands perf from any player or kicks him out if no perf. One who demands that attitude has to be correct, and not the Mighty Lord Snooty types will not be tolerated.

Ok, took the bait, but prob should stop here.

aha, so it is all about SG and GC, eh? and that was what PP was implying too, i s,pose? quite slimy, ain't it, if so? why not simply name names instead of a plaintive plead?

[justforkix]

If one has AIDS it doesn't mean that he shouldn't act in a condom advertisement. Nothing wrong in that.

Butt,
Being a gay or lesbian, he/she doesn't have the right to talk against bisexuality. The big PP is doing here the same.

Made my DAY - for the creative analogy

 

[fineleg]

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

what's the reality, f'leg?

This is so inviting, should I take the bait
I'd rather not...but a short one...

Reality is some(many?) ppl are not as interested in the perf of the team and what is best for the team. Rather they wish their star players are part of the 11/15. And many are against "foreigner" coach idea esp one who demands perf from any player or kicks him out if no perf. One who demands that attitude has to be correct, and not the Mighty Lord Snooty types will not be tolerated.

Ok, took the bait, but prob should stop here.

aha, so it is all about SG and GC, eh? and that was what PP was implying too, i s,pose? quite slimy, ain't it, if so? why not simply name names instead of a plaintive plead?

Thats a current example and it serves to showcase the situation. Dont twist it beyond that saying that is ALL its abt. Shud have anticipated it (the twist...cud sense the 'bait'), but its ok...

[justforkix]

Reality is some(many?) ppl are not as interested in the perf of the team and what is best for the team. Rather they wish their star players are part of the 11/15. And many are against "foreigner" coach idea esp one who demands perf from any player or kicks him out if no perf. One who demands that attitude has to be correct, and not the Mighty Lord Snooty types will not be tolerated.

So, what is the sample size here ?!? all indian cricket fans all over the world ?!? only in india ?!? only in US ?!? only in this DG ?!? based on a a few online forums ?!?

[sudzz]

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

what's the reality, f'leg?

This is so inviting, should I take the bait
I'd rather not...but a short one...

Reality is some(many?) ppl are not as interested in the perf of the team and what is best for the team. Rather they wish their star players are part of the 11/15. And many are against "foreigner" coach idea esp one who demands perf from any player or kicks him out if no perf. One who demands that attitude has to be correct, and not the Mighty Lord Snooty types will not be tolerated.

Ok, took the bait, but prob should stop here.

Fineleg if you sincerely believe that then I dont think you share the interest and passion in cricket that many of us in this DG do.

For example Sunil Valson did not play too much before,during or after the world cup people still remember him but the hero of our world cup was, is and will be Kapil Dev.

The thing about most Indian fans is that we love winners (as a nation we dont win much) and we love the one who drives us to victory more than that entire team itself. But to say that Indian fans are entirely focussed on their hero alone and dont care what happens to the team is foolish.

If that were true there would not be so many murmurs about SRT's position in the team now. People have lost their patience with VS now.
What happen in SG's case was quite different though, he was still valuable as a captain and he was dumped rather unceremoniously and then the rumor mills got churning and added fuel to fire and ensured that SG's dropping remained on top of the charts.
When any hero is villified by anyone (look at what happens when someone says Nehru was the reason why India stayed back..If say it is uttered by Richard Burns of the White House, the whole of India will be up in arms even if they personally agree with the assesment) and that anyone happens to be a outsider then you burn up and want to take that person on.
PP from what little I have read of his writings has taken the opportunity to time and time again castigate SG and therefore has acted very much like the Indian fan he is talking about.

The average bum roaster does not care if SG plays, does not play ,SRT plays does not play he/she cares if India wins or not. If it was not so any game that does not feature a SRT or RD or SG or VS should see lesser viewership, stadium attendence etc. It does not happen that way.

When India played Eng in India SRT was missing, SG was missing yet the stadiums were full, TRP's were high so what of that??

[prfsr]

Sudzz,
Very well-said.

I would like to add that this fantasy that there are large  numbers of worthy people waiting to take over very important roles in the team if only they got one chance is a myth, one that has been tested before, most frequently by Pakistan, but also during the Packer series. If people remember that WI team that came to India and was pumelled like crap, you will remember that the bowling consisted of 4 non-entities and a very very raw Marshall who was hammered away to glory by SMG and co.

-P

[justforkix]

sudzz - well said. I echo your sentiments even though I could not have expressed it as passionately as u did

[achutank]

suda suda sudzz 

[Libran]

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

what's the reality, f'leg?

This is so inviting, should I take the bait
I'd rather not...but a short one...

Reality is some(many?) ppl are not as interested in the perf of the team and what is best for the team. Rather they wish their star players are part of the 11/15. And many are against "foreigner" coach idea esp one who demands perf from any player or kicks him out if no perf. One who demands that attitude has to be correct, and not the Mighty Lord Snooty types will not be tolerated.

Ok, took the bait, but prob should stop here.

Fineleg if you sincerely believe that then I dont think you share the interest and passion in cricket that many of us in this DG do.

For example Sunil Valson did not play too much before,during or after the world cup people still remember him but the hero of our world cup was, is and will be Kapil Dev.

The thing about most Indian fans is that we love winners (as a nation we dont win much) and we love the one who drives us to victory more than that entire team itself. But to say that Indian fans are entirely focussed on their hero alone and dont care what happens to the team is foolish.

If that were true there would not be so many murmurs about SRT's position in the team now. People have lost their patience with VS now.
What happen in SG's case was quite different though, he was still valuable as a captain and he was dumped rather unceremoniously and then the rumor mills got churning and added fuel to fire and ensured that SG's dropping remained on top of the charts.
When any hero is villified by anyone (look at what happens when someone says Nehru was the reason why India stayed back..If say it is uttered by Richard Burns of the White House, the whole of India will be up in arms even if they personally agree with the assesment) and that anyone happens to be a outsider then you burn up and want to take that person on.
PP from what little I have read of his writings has taken the opportunity to time and time again castigate SG and therefore has acted very much like the Indian fan he is talking about.

The average bum roaster does not care if SG plays, does not play ,SRT plays does not play he/she cares if India wins or not. If it was not so any game that does not feature a SRT or RD or SG or VS should see lesser viewership, stadium attendence etc. It does not happen that way.

When India played Eng in India SRT was missing, SG was missing yet the stadiums were full, TRP's were high so what of that??

Applause Sudzz..Well articulated

And ...compartmentalizng people with a bias for some players as anti-national or gloating in the country's loss is a very narrow way of looking at issues. People who compartmentalize like that are those who have an inherent frustrated outlook to life and want to put that frustration to work by painting people in a different color...

[kban1]

suddz:

applause for an extremely well articulated post

[fineleg]

Sudzz,
You have made a major assumption that I also agree to this:
"he was still valuable as a captain and he was dumped rather unceremoniously "

The above is ur opinion.

IMO, SG was 1. Batting very poorly and 2. disruptive force in the Indian team at that time due to his attitude and the internal politics.

I don't have anything personal against SG (as though I know him personally), but because of the above I wanted him out of the team. The team was not going to benefit from him being there. Not becos some phoreigner coach was above indian coach/player.

[OldPal]

IMO, SG was 1. Batting very poorly and 2. disruptive force in the Indian team at that time due to his attitude and the internal politics.

Way to go FL .. right points ..

Sudzz your turn   

[fineleg]

IMO, SG was 1. Batting very poorly and 2. disruptive force in the Indian team at that time due to his attitude and the internal politics.

Way to go FL .. right points ..

Sudzz your turn   

Thanks pankaj. I don't intend to endlessly debate this, since folks are set in the thinking.
But the above 2 points are the shortest way of putting it.

[prfsr]

IMO, SG was 1. Batting very poorly and 2. disruptive force in the Indian team at that time due to his attitude and the internal politics.

1. is true, although SG could argue that he was working his way back to form with a 100. 2. is your opinion, either not based on evidence or based on evidence that CLR and kban have repeatedly refuted.

Now some questions for you -- now that "033" is no longer captain, what/who prevents BCCI from fixing problems with the team? What is PP saying about this? (remember the repeated unnamed player comments about 033?) Or is it that the talent pool in India became extinct post 2005? How come Pawar cannot solve this problem by allocating money well? (Remember how PP said Pawar could solve almost any problem by properly appropriating funds?) Where are the stadiums coming up (with BCCI money) at the grassroot levels? I do not know about all states but I would have known if even one such project started in WB.
-P

[kban1]

prfsr:

Fineleg has his own opinions which will not change come what may -- let it go. You are asking questions of someone who refuses to budge from his misconceptions even after both his points have been debunked -- point 1 - partially, point 2 - completely.

[fineleg]

Kban,
Prfsr questions are not on #2 specifically. He does have valid questions wrt to BCCI and team operations post 033.

Prfsr,
Valid question. I am very disappointed with the progress made by the new BCCI/team mgmt.
I dont expect we can pull miracles very soon after post 033-captain.

But, I expected much better than this spineless performances (no mincing words).
Thats why during my DG absence in last few months, I still popped my head in to cry "Just throw these darn 11/15 out and get a totally AVG team..." sort of posts...
In short, yes - very disappointing.

Does not make SG's attitudes correct though. Two wrongs dont make a right.

[flute202020]

prfsr:

well said, applause.

Also, I would like to add that many of the points I made in my earlier post about fan identification with Stars / icons / heroes is very much applicable to their support of the cricket team -- again the performance of the team in this case becomes the morale booster

kban1, so do you agree with prfsr here? I thought in your earlier post you said PP's assertion is a self evident issue and there is nothing to argue and prfsr's post seem to say that he doesn't see this star centric atttitude of cricket fans. what do you see?

[ruchir]

KBAN --

Sorry, that I wrote that LPS writes for APB. My mistake.

LPS has written many rhetorical articles in recent past, saying that SRT is not playing well or VS is not playing well and how come these stars are in the team and SG is not? He has compared SG to just about everyone, from MK to SR and asked the question, why are they in the team and SG is not. So let me ask you this? Are these not rhetorical questions? Don't everyone know the answers? So why is LPS repeating them? Did he give any solution for these question? So why did you not criticise him? You criticise PP by saying that his article does not amount to much because there is nothing new in it. So, what was new in those rhetorical LPS articles? You didn't criticise him by saying that "Why is LPS writing such pieces when there is nothing new in them. No solutions." How come you were so silent then? I am not asking you to not criticise PP. I am pointing out your double standards. Your and those of many others. You say there is no point in crying hoarse over the points made by PP. Fine. But you never said there is no use crying hoarse over the rhetorical points LPS was making. Why? Is it so because LPS was talking in favor of SG?

Let talk about history of PP. Show me one article written by him where he says that indian fans are unpatriotic, they want the team to lose because their favorite start is not selected. Show me just one such article/post written by him. The onus of evidence is on you. I can't prove something that doesn't exist. You say he has made such allegations. It's now time to prove your allegations. Either put up or shut the hell up. You say that if a lie is repeated over and over it starts looking like truth. You said so in regards to SG faking injury in Nagpur. I say you are telling a bloody lie about PP. And you think your repeating this lie over and over will make it look like truth. So, prove you allegations. Show me one URL where PP says that indian fans are unpatriotic or want team to lose. If you are unable to unearth even one such article, then it is my request that please don't write such nonsense about anyone. It is nothing but a figment of imagination of the over-fertile minds of SG fans, that make them think that PP calls SG fans unpatriotic of such stuff. Open your mind, please.

You think PP does not criticise current team management. Well, go through this comparison of RD/SG and JW/GC on Rediff. http://specials.rediff.com/cricket/2006/nov/27sld1.htm

Let me give a little background. I know you don't visit Sightscreen regularly. So let me tell you this. Some 6 months ago, when PP was in New York, he came up with an idea of a tabular comparison of RD/SG and GC/JW. On Sightscreen, he said that such a comparison was not possible on the blog because it did not allow tables. However once he goes back to India, he will do it on Rediff as he will have better manpower there for research. Now, go thru the slideshow and you will see that it shows SG and JW in a better light when compared to RD and GC. Slideshow does not have Prem's name but believe me, the idea was his and it happened after he went to India (as he said). Now, if PP did not want to show current team management in bad light, why would he let this slideshow appear on Rediff? He could have easily killed it until the stats became better. Or maybe just killed it completely if stats did not improve. Another thing, you may not know but PP was one of the first commentars to push SG for captaincy when SRT was failing. He pin-pointed various character triats of SG which, per him, bode him well as a captain. Yet, you guys think that PP is blindly against SG and has a pathological urge to criticise him. He criticise RD's captaincy in his game coverage just as much as he criticised SG's captaincy. It is another matter that you fail to see it that way.

FINALLY, I am not against anyone criticising PP on what he write.s I am against everyone who criticises one journalist for allegation X but by-passes another journalist for the same allegation. In this case, PP is criticised for writing rhetorical post, not giving any solutions, criticising fans for being unpatriotic and what not. Well, criticise him all you want, but be balanced in your criticism. Don't put words in his mouth (unpatriotic fans) and criticise every journalist who does the same thing (rhetoric, no solution), not just one. That's my point.

[flute202020]

prfsr:

Fineleg has his own opinions which will not change come what may -- let it go. You are asking questions of someone who refuses to budge from his misconceptions even after both his points have been debunked -- point 1 - partially, point 2 - completely.

kban1, really? how can we assume that they are completely debunked? simply based on your arguments?

I too argee with Fineleg here. SG was in extremely poor form and was also disruptive force by his attitude to fitness, refusal to work on his short comings, creating a storm by bringing up dressing room spat, possibly lying to VVS about GC's intentions of dropping him from tests.

[kban1]

flute:

Point 1: I believe you were part of the discussions in question and I believe after all my arguments (incidentally they were stats from Cricinfo, so not much subjectivity involved) were done, you acknowledged that as far as tests were concerned, SG's form wasnt as bad as it was made out to be (but for the Pak series). So, I am not going to respond to this further just because you now feel FL's points are valid.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to beat a dead horse especially with regards to arguments that have been statistically shown to be myths.

If you do not agree, let us just agree to disagree here.

Point 2: Every allegation brought forward by FL regarding politics et al remains unproven, in fact in some cases, evidence has shown them to be false.

Again not going to rehash arguments over and over again, especially when the opposing points include unsubstantiated and unproven points such as "I feel SG lied about VVS" and the like.

Feelings do not make for the truth, at best they are someone's opinion.

And as I have always said you are entitled to your opinion, pardon me if I do not join your soiree -- so lets agree to disagree here too.

[kban1]

flute:

kban1, so do you agree with prfsr here? I thought in your earlier post you said PP's assertion is a self evident issue and there is nothing to argue and prfsr's post seem to say that he doesn't see this star centric atttitude of cricket fans. what do you see?

Applauding someone does not mean I agree in ditto with everything the person says. It could be because I agree completely, I agree partially, its a well written response (irrespective of whether I agree or disagree), the person is contributing to a good and healthy debate, or the post is funny.

If applause were equal to total agreement, then I would hardly have applauded you, ruchir, suraj, CP, FL, and a host of others who take contrarian viewpoints to mine.

My POV has been distinctly elucidiated in several posts on this thread. So please re read them and you will see where I agree with prfsr and where I do not.

[kban1]

ruchir,

I shall respond to your post when I have some time, probably in the evening.

[prfsr]

prfsr:

well said, applause.

Also, I would like to add that many of the points I made in my earlier post about fan identification with Stars / icons / heroes is very much applicable to their support of the cricket team -- again the performance of the team in this case becomes the morale booster

kban1, so do you agree with prfsr here? I thought in your earlier post you said PP's assertion is a self evident issue and there is nothing to argue and prfsr's post seem to say that he doesn't see this star centric atttitude of cricket fans. what do you see?

kban responded as I was typing the reply. In any case I would like to clarify "prfsr's post seem to say that he doesn't see this star centric atttitude of cricket fans" -- I meant that there are certainly some who subscribe to this view but I do not believe that this is true for the majority or even a very sizable minority of Indian fans. And again, to idolize someone is NOT the same as believing that individual first, and the team second. I hope that is clear.

-P

[ruchir]

ruchir,

I shall respond to your post when I have some time, probably in the evening.

Keenly awaited... 

[dave_dj]

SG was in extremely poor form and was also disruptive force by his attitude to fitness, refusal to work on his short comings, creating a storm by bringing up dressing room spat, possibly lying to VVS about GC's intentions of dropping him from tests.

Did he lose his form?  Yes - we were all there to witness that.  Could he have done more to fix his form slump?  Possibly yes but we do not know what he did but result was not there.  One thing he certainly could have done is relieving him from captainship on his own accord to focus on his batting.  But to accuse him of lying and divisive is unfortunate.  We believe what we want to beleive and there is always someone who will say what we want to hear.  I think that one should take a moment and think leaving aside our prejudices - how can one ever think of dismantling a team that he picked up from shambles and worked so hard to build?

[flute202020]

flute:

Point 1: I believe you were part of the discussions in question and I believe after all my arguments (incidentally they were stats from Cricinfo, so not much subjectivity involved) were done, you acknowledged that as far as tests were concerned, SG's form wasnt as bad as it was made out to be (but for the Pak series). So, I am not going to respond to this further just because you now feel FL's points are valid.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to beat a dead horse especially with regards to arguments that have been statistically shown to be myths.

If you do not agree, let us just agree to disagree here.

kban1, we can agree to disagree all we want, but for you to go around and say I debunked that point and he is still retaining his misperception is not the right thing, especially when we agree to disagree.

Now coming to my alleged agreement with you about SG's form, the point in question at that time was SG's continued 2 yrs bad form. At that time, your analysis showed that SG's form was not abysmal for 2 yrs in tests. I agreed with you in so far as 2 yrs thing is concerned. But, SG definitely was in poor form in ODIs for sometime and also showed extremely bad form in Pakistan series. When we definitely say with reasonable surety that SG was in bad form when he was dropped.

Now, again, if you want to agree to disagree, fine, but please don't say we are maintaining our stand inspite of you debunking it. you are very far from debunking this point or the 2nd point.

Point 2: Every allegation brought forward by FL regarding politics et al remains unproven, in fact in some cases, evidence has shown them to be false.

Again not going to rehash arguments over and over again, especially when the opposing points include unsubstantiated and unproven points such as "I feel SG lied about VVS" and the like.

Feelings do not make for the truth, at best they are someone's opinion.

And as I have always said you are entitled to your opinion, pardon me if I do not join your soiree -- so lets agree to disagree here too.

Not sure who talked about feelings here unless you are using your "right to choose interpretation mode" 

If I am not wrong, I remember even you agreeing that VVS issue is the only thing not debunked or something which doesn't hav enough evidence. Please reread my post and in fact I mentioned that possibly he lied to VVS. I am not going to believe it either way, but I am leaning more towards believing it because of the way events played out, as in BCCI attributing it to miscommunication without castigating GC, this issue not becoming a major defense point in SG's favour etc.


Since you did not offer any points against my other things I mentioned regarding point 2, I don't feel the need to go any further into it.

Oh, you are welcome to join my soiree anytime you feel like. Also, please feel free not to join in. I only hope that you don't go around discrediting my soiree  without participating in it 

[caught and bowled]

ruchir,

I shall respond to your post when I have some time, probably in the evening.

Keenly awaited... 

Ruchir, mega applause...!!

[prfsr]

If I am not wrong, I remember even you agreeing that VVS issue is the only thing not debunked or something which doesn't hav enough evidence. Please reread my post and in fact I mentioned that possibly he lied to VVS. I am not going to believe it either way, but I am leaning more towards believing it because of the way events played out, as in BCCI attributing it to miscommunication without castigating GC, this issue not becoming a major defense point in SG's favour etc.

Well Flute SG possibly murdered hundreds, caused global warming and caused 9/11 as well. See the beauty of the escape clause "possibly"? Everything is possible. Kban said there was no evidence of the VVS issue. I will readily confess there is no real evidence that SG murdered anyone, but I am leaning towards believing he did since several murders in the Behala area (where SG's home is) never got solved or got enough attn from the  govt.

Also please remember that BCCI absolved SG of any wrongdoing in the divisiveness issue and essentially said GC's allegations were "not true". However, as you will agree, they did not issue a single statement about the Behala murders.

-P

[dave_dj]

If I am not wrong, I remember even you agreeing that VVS issue is the only thing not debunked or something which doesn't hav enough evidence. Please reread my post and in fact I mentioned that possibly he lied to VVS. I am not going to believe it either way, but I am leaning more towards believing it because of the way events played out, as in BCCI attributing it to miscommunication without castigating GC, this issue not becoming a major defense point in SG's favour etc.

Well Flute SG possibly murdered hundreds, caused global warming and caused 9/11 as well. See the beauty of the escape clause "possibly"? Everything is possible. Kban said there was no evidence of the VVS issue. I will readily confess there is no real evidence that SG murdered anyone, but I am leaning towards believing he did since several murders in the Behala area (where SG's home is) never got solved or got enough attn from the  govt.

Also please remember that BCCI absolved SG of any wrongdoing in the divisiveness issue and essentially said GC's allegations were "not true". However, as you will agree, they did not issue a single statement about the Behala murders.

-P

I have reason to believe that they are true, especially because his form was going downhill - what else could he do?

[ruchir]

ruchir,

I shall respond to your post when I have some time, probably in the evening.

Keenly awaited... 

Ruchir, mega applause...!!

Thanks !!!

[flute202020]

If I am not wrong, I remember even you agreeing that VVS issue is the only thing not debunked or something which doesn't hav enough evidence. Please reread my post and in fact I mentioned that possibly he lied to VVS. I am not going to believe it either way, but I am leaning more towards believing it because of the way events played out, as in BCCI attributing it to miscommunication without castigating GC, this issue not becoming a major defense point in SG's favour etc.

Well Flute SG possibly murdered hundreds, caused global warming and caused 9/11 as well. See the beauty of the escape clause "possibly"? Everything is possible. Kban said there was no evidence of the VVS issue. I will readily confess there is no real evidence that SG murdered anyone, but I am leaning towards believing he did since several murders in the Behala area (where SG's home is) never got solved or got enough attn from the  govt.

Also please remember that BCCI absolved SG of any wrongdoing in the divisiveness issue and essentially said GC's allegations were "not true". However, as you will agree, they did not issue a single statement about the Behala murders.

-P

aha, we are now back to the "hard evidence preferably video evidence" ONLY in case of SG. When it comes to certain other people or issues, we are much more flexible and are willing to draw our conclusions based on various media reports, inside scoop etc. Very convenient. what do you mean "there is no evidence of VSS issue"? what type of evidence are we looking for here?

As for me, I don't believe everything printed in news media, at the same time, I read all available sources and draw my own conclusions based on news reports and also my knowledge of the real world. In this instance, as events played out, I am leaning more towards believing it. Remember, this is not a court of law. We are not in the business of giving out punishment for wrong doing. We are only drawing conclusions based on certain set of events and based on certain information. Especially, we cannot employ higher standards of hard, videographic type evidence only in case of certain somebody.

[toney]

kban,
A couple of things:
1. I do agree that SG wasn't in as bad form in test cricket as some of us (including me) kept mentioning. He had a horrible series against Pak (ODI) which meant that it showed his avg test stats as even poorer.
Did he deserve to be dropped for the performance? I believe so. I believe he was at a point where it wasn't just a case of low scores but also the manner of dismissals where he couldn't come to terms with teams which sorted out his weakness. No one cared whether he had a weakness to the short ball or to deliveries outside the off stump as long as his scores were good.
Combined with his poor captaincy (this doesnt mean that I am saying RD is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But unfortunately, every post needs disclaimers on this DG), it painted a sorry picture of a man who took India to a WC finals and showed courage in everything he did.
So, IMO he deserved to definitely lose his captaincy and also his batting spot. Why I say that he should have been dropped is specifically for his own good. A guy like SG, unlike say a Devang *hi can go back to FC cricket, concentrate on his batting and sort his problems out. International cricket is not the right place to do that.

2. As for his divisive work in the team: I have read all of your posts which attempt to debunk the theory. But honestly, all of it was based on the simple fact that there is no conclusive proof. I agree with you that it is not fair to judge SG on the basis of rumours. But you also have to accept the fact that it wasn't just cricinfo or DP who propagated these rumours. Even people like SMG (green wicketitis) had their say in this matter. Will there be so much smoke without any fire? Again, none of this is to say that GC has been Sree Rama. But I don't think such stories will form out of thin air. No one will ever come forward and give conclusive proof in terms of fingerprints, taped conversations or secret videos. To be honest, it is surprising that a person with your capability to reason is so dismissive of such rumours when they are shared by former players and several reporters in addition to the ruckus it created in the Board, the Parliament etc. I can understand you asking the rest to show restraint in judging SG. I just cannot understand how you could so confidently say that SG is free of any wrongdoing in this whole affair.

PS: I remember Proloy making a comment about how SG never runs away from a greentop. He quoted Brisbane etc as proof. Many others nodded in agreement too. This is something that seems to be doing the rounds. But did anyone actually say that SG was ever scared of greentops? I thought that the rumour was that SG sat out the match to protest the preparation of a green-top by the Maharashtra board in their politics with JagguDa. While I cannot even begin to understand logic of preparing such a pitch for a home series and the harm that the curator and officials did to the home country by this deplorable deed, was SG right in sitting out in such an important match simply because he didnt agree with what was done? Didn't that hurt India? That is what was wrong about it. I dont think any Indian batsman  is "scared" as such of greentops. They wear enough protection that in most cases, they wouldnt even feel much pain if they were hit by a fast bowler. I think the accusations of SG being scared and running away developed over a period of time and were totally baseless. Correct me if I am wrong.

[caught and bowled]

I share your views Toney. Well written response

[flute202020]

kban,
A couple of things:
1. I do agree that SG wasn't in as bad form in test cricket as some of us (including me) kept mentioning. He had a horrible series against Pak (ODI) which meant that it showed his avg test stats as even poorer.
Did he deserve to be dropped for the performance? I believe so. I believe he was at a point where it wasn't just a case of low scores but also the manner of dismissals where he couldn't come to terms with teams which sorted out his weakness. No one cared whether he had a weakness to the short ball or to deliveries outside the off stump as long as his scores were good.
Combined with his poor captaincy (this doesnt mean that I am saying RD is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But unfortunately, every post needs disclaimers on this DG), it painted a sorry picture of a man who took India to a WC finals and showed courage in everything he did.
So, IMO he deserved to definitely lose his captaincy and also his batting spot. Why I say that he should have been dropped is specifically for his own good. A guy like SG, unlike say a Devang *hi can go back to FC cricket, concentrate on his batting and sort his problems out. International cricket is not the right place to do that.

2. As for his divisive work in the team: I have read all of your posts which attempt to debunk the theory. But honestly, all of it was based on the simple fact that there is no conclusive proof. I agree with you that it is not fair to judge SG on the basis of rumours. But you also have to accept the fact that it wasn't just cricinfo or DP who propagated these rumours. Even people like SMG (green wicketitis) had their say in this matter. Will there be so much smoke without any fire? Again, none of this is to say that GC has been Sree Rama. But I don't think such stories will form out of thin air. No one will ever come forward and give conclusive proof in terms of fingerprints, taped conversations or secret videos. To be honest, it is surprising that a person with your capability to reason is so dismissive of such rumours when they are shared by former players and several reporters in addition to the ruckus it created in the Board, the Parliament etc. I can understand you asking the rest to show restraint in judging SG. I just cannot understand how you could so confidently say that SG is free of any wrongdoing in this whole affair.

PS: I remember Proloy making a comment about how SG never runs away from a greentop. He quoted Brisbane etc as proof. Many others nodded in agreement too. This is something that seems to be doing the rounds. But did anyone actually say that SG was ever scared of greentops? I thought that the rumour was that SG sat out the match to protest the preparation of a green-top by the Maharashtra board in their politics with JagguDa. While I cannot even begin to understand logic of preparing such a pitch for a home series and the harm that the curator and officials did to the home country by this deplorable deed, was SG right in sitting out in such an important match simply because he didnt agree with what was done? Didn't that hurt India? That is what was wrong about it. I dont think any Indian batsman  is "scared" as such of greentops. They wear enough protection that in most cases, they wouldnt even feel much pain if they were hit by a fast bowler. I think the accusations of SG being scared and running away developed over a period of time and were totally baseless. Correct me if I am wrong.

well written toney. agree with you mostly except for one thing and that is about SG's running away from green top. I think the bigger issue is of Pawar & Maha group back stabbing the country and behaving like traitors to get back at Jaggu and is not about SG. In fact, pawar & gang benefited because it ultimately became a SG issue and noone talked much about WHY they stooped to the level of treacherous politics. I am so very pissed at them, I refuse to talk about SG or his rumoured protest in not playing the game. To me, it is not the issue. The issue is about people deceiving & backstabbing Home Team.

[prfsr]

Toney,
Well written. Applause.
<fineleg>
I will respond in detail when I get some time
</fineleg>

Meanwhile, here's something to chew on. On the one hand you quote SMG's famous
green wktitis remark and on the other hand you say he was not running away from the greentop. So which is it? Both cannot be true.

-P

PS: It hurts BAD when you are hit at that pace. Ask anyone you like who has felt a cricket ball Protections take the edge out of the blow (as in diffuse it) but you DO feel it. I am not saying that means they are scared. But to say that it does not hurt is stretching it.

[toney]

Toney,
Well written. Applause.
<fineleg>
I will respond in detail when I get some time
</fineleg>

Meanwhile, here's something to chew on. On the one hand you quote SMG's famous
green wktitis remark and on the other hand you say he was not running away from the greentop. So which is it? Both cannot be true.

-P

PS: It hurts BAD when you are hit at that pace. Ask anyone you like who has felt a cricket ball Protections take the edge out of the blow (as in diffuse it) but you DO feel it. I am not saying that means they are scared. But to say that it does not hurt is stretching it.

psfr,
thanks for acknowledging the post.

As for the SMG comment, I dont think he seriously meant that SG was scared of green wickets. He just found the term to be a clever one and used it simply to make a point that all is not well with his sitting out. I wouldnt take the term literally and then assume that SMG was accusing SG of being scared.

I know it hurts when hit, however much you are padded. But the reality is that no player will get seriously injured, unlike during Gavaskar's times. I haven't used protective gear of that quality but I can assume that it is several times better than the ones I have used. Do you think that players are scared of being hurt after wearing all that? I am not so sure.
PS: Dont know if I am going around in circles. All I meant to say is that getting seriously hurt isnt really often for international batsmen.

[caught and bowled]

Quote from: flute202020 on Today at 02:53:29 PM
well written toney. agree with you mostly except for one thing and that is about SG's running away from green top. I think the bigger issue is of Pawar & Maha group back stabbing the country and behaving like traitors to get back at Jaggu and is not about SG. In fact, pawar & gang benefited because it ultimately became a SG issue and noone talked much about WHY they stooped to the level of treacherous politics. I am so very pissed at them, I refuse to talk about SG or his rumoured protest in not playing the game. To me, it is not the issue. The issue is about people deceiving & backstabbing Home Team.
[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before this goes any further, you guys need to get your facts right. I think you are using the term Maharashtra group rather loosely.

If you dont know, in the state of Maharashtra, there are three Cricket associations: MCA Mumbai Cricket Association of which Pawar has been the president. This looks after Mumbai. Then there is Maharashtra Cricket Association, HDQ in Pune- the present Chairman is Ajit Shirke. They look after western and southern Maharashtra. And then there is Vidarbha Cricket Association VCA, HDQ Nagpur reprsenting the 8 districts of Vidarbha. The Chairman is Shashank Manohar.

Apparently, in the vote politics advocated by the BCCI, there was a dispute between Dalmia and Manohar. Of course what VCA did was positively deplorable 

[suraj]

I share your views Toney. Well written response

me too toney- I agree with your views

oops now we'll be accused to be part of the clique

As experienced soilders of the clique (unfortunately I never rose above that rank ) it will be prudent to warn C&B the newest member of the "clique"