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[suraj]

i posted very early in this thread and then ignored it because every post started with "PP this" and "PP that".
i think flute has brought the thread back on track. here's how to make it simple:

The point is: Is the basic idea in the article correct? Do we have a tendency to star worship, something which is best left aside? Yes, no, discuss.

the point is NOT: Do you agree with PP? Do you agree with the article because it is written by PP? Has PP lost the moral authority to write on cricket? Is PP bald and ugly?

fineleg rocks!!!!!!!!

Thanks for bringing the focus back.
Becos this was written by PP it is being how do I describe this is article is being <sub achu's fav word> on.
I'll change the TITLE to remove PP from it, and then see if folks can actually get to "discuss".

[fineleg]

i posted very early in this thread and then ignored it because every post started with "PP this" and "PP that".
i think flute has brought the thread back on track. here's how to make it simple:

The point is: Is the basic idea in the article correct? Do we have a tendency to star worship, something which is best left aside? Yes, no, discuss.

the point is NOT: Do you agree with PP? Do you agree with the article because it is written by PP? Has PP lost the moral authority to write on cricket? Is PP bald and ugly?

fineleg rocks!!!!!!!!

Thanks for bringing the focus back.
Becos this was written by PP it is being how do I describe this is article is being <sub achu's fav word> on.
I'll change the TITLE to remove PP from it, and then see if folks can actually get to "discuss".

Thanks - we do need an icon for rocks...this DG icons need a facelift

[kban1]

DD

i posted very early in this thread and then ignored it because every post started with "PP this" and "PP that".
i think flute has brought the thread back on track. here's how to make it simple:

The point is: Is the basic idea in the article correct? Do we have a tendency to star worship, something which is best left aside? Yes, no, discuss.

the point is NOT: Do you agree with PP? Do you agree with the article because it is written by PP? Has PP lost the moral authority to write on cricket? Is PP bald and ugly?

 

First of all, is the point of the message really debatable ?

Isn't it common knowledge to one and all that many fans are star centric (does not necessarily mean they do not feel for the team or support it -- had to point out the fallacy here that star centric does not equate not supporting the team) ??

So what are we going to do about it -- we know of the irrationality of the fan base, I am not quite sure what the point of the message is, especially a message self evident and has been repeated umpteen times over by various people.

Second, fineleg posted an article. How people interpret it is up to them isnt't it ? No one can legislate interpretation modes.

Some people choose to see the message and nod in agreement over the content.

Others see the message, agree over the ostentatious points but do not agree with the underlying message when judged contextually and choose to call that out.

If someone sees an evident realism being repeated and objects to the timing and the context of the message, and its interpretation thereof, given the past history of the messenger, it is not called shooting the messenger -- it is simply objecting to the devil citing the scripture / 10 commandements to prove a point (BTW, that is a metaphor, no one is calling PP a devil here).

[justforkix]

Thanks for bringing the focus back.
Becos this was written by PP it is being... how do I describe... this is article is being <sub achu's fav word> on.
I'll change the TITLE to remove PP from it, and then see if folks can actually get to "discuss".

how brilliant and innovative !!! 2 days after posting the article 

[justforkix]

The point is: Is the basic idea in the article correct? Do we have a tendency to star worship, something which is best left aside? Yes, no, discuss.

Itz pretty much the universal truth. what is there to discuss.....

PP's articles are sometimes wierd - he writes as if he's discovered something very novel....

[flute202020]

DD

i posted very early in this thread and then ignored it because every post started with "PP this" and "PP that".
i think flute has brought the thread back on track. here's how to make it simple:

The point is: Is the basic idea in the article correct? Do we have a tendency to star worship, something which is best left aside? Yes, no, discuss.

the point is NOT: Do you agree with PP? Do you agree with the article because it is written by PP? Has PP lost the moral authority to write on cricket? Is PP bald and ugly?

 

First of all, is the point of the message really debatable ?

Isn't it common knowledge to one and all that many fans are star centric (does not necessarily mean they do not feel for the team or support it -- had to point out the fallacy here that star centric does not equate not supporting the team) ??

So what are we going to do about it -- we know of the irrationality of the fan base, I am not quite sure what the point of the message is, especially a message self evident and has been repeated umpteen times over by various people.

Second, fineleg posted an article. How people interpret it is up to them isnt't it ? No one can legislate interpretation modes.

Some people choose to see the message and nod in agreement over the content.

Others see the message, agree over the ostentatious points but do not agree with the underlying message when judged contextually and choose to call that out.

If someone sees an evident realism being repeated and objects to the timing and the context of the message, and its interpretation thereof, given the past history of the messenger, it is not called shooting the messenger -- it is simply objecting to the devil citing the scripture / 10 commandements to prove a point (BTW, that is a metaphor, no one is calling PP a devil here).

kban1,   I don't think the message is self evident and even if it is so, we can debate it for the reasons behind it. Anyway, I will not venture further into it, because that did be diverting the topic. Anyway, I am very very tired of people pouncing on anyone who starts a threads or writes a article which MIGHT HAVE something against SG because they CHOOSE to interpret it using whatever CONTEXT they want. In fact I am so tired that now I am praying that India may not produce another cricketer like SG(or SRT or RD), his fan following and star status hurts the team so much, any of his on field performances fade in comparison. sure, its not SG's (or SRT or RD) fault. Here's to hoping for more Kaifs & AKs and Praveen Amre's

oh, also, rest assured, this logic will revisit everyone pretty soon. Please don't complain when I choose to pick my interpretation mode.

kban saab, taariq dilwana hame bhi aata hain..bus aap entezaar keeziye for a taste of your own medicine 

[dhruvdeepak]

Kban,

IMO, there is plenty to debate about it.
-What are these specific values, and how are they aligned with this phenomenon? (agree with you that by no means does it imply that the fan is not supporting the team)
-What are the values in societies without such star worship? Does such a society even exist? If not, why is it that fans in India go to such extremes, for example the vandalizing of Kaif's house?
-Keeping the fans' issue apart, is such a mentality present in the BCCI and its selectors? Should they not be above such biases if they are going to do what is best for Indian cricket?
-Do we, on the DG, embody a similar mentality? Is there a way we can discuss it amongst ourselves in order to bring about a shift, however small?

list goes on.

i totally agree with you that we cant legislate interpretation modes, but i just thought that the article brought up a number of more pressing issues than the color of PP's teeth and whether his prescription for Rogaine was running out. it is pretty common for threads to be diverted like so (just recall any article by Roebuck or Harsha or DP or Jha), and there is little that can be done about it. IMO there were some pertinent points in PP's post, and i thought i would try and direct the discussion from what we have done ad nauseum.
anyways, i agree with many that PP's writing style is like a pungent odor - curious initially at least, but give it time to ferment  . in this case i guess i dont really care about the messenger and his past history and all that, but would have preferred a different discussion. iz ok, boyz conseeds defeat.

[fineleg]

Flute,
True. Enough of these megastars. I'd rather we get a team like NZ where there are folks like Styris, Howe et al, who are not superstars.
But, even if we have a team full of Amre's, the goal is to win, right? And if we win, then you know what will happen. Next morning Amre will become the new SG. Such will be our fans and media deitification praacess.

[fineleg]

Thanks for bringing the focus back.
Becos this was written by PP it is being... how do I describe... this is article is being <sub achu's fav word> on.
I'll change the TITLE to remove PP from it, and then see if folks can actually get to "discuss".

how brilliant and innovative !!! 2 days after posting the article 

Kix,
It is not supposed to be brill or inn...it is a DESPERATE attempt.
2 days before I thought ppl can still discuss despite it being an article by PP *and* it is being posted by Finey!
But, no PP + Finey posting in DG = against SG = no discussion.

Depending on who is posting (be it article author or DG poster), everything is based on 'who'.

[prfsr]

I have stayed out of this thread so far, because this is typical PP's storm in a teacup with no substance whatsoever. But let's discuss it anyway.

The key point is summarized in the last sentence "The day we as fans put results over individual fancies, the day we stop talking, pro or con, about some individual player, and empower selectors and the management to take tough decisions, is the day we will really turn the corner we have been staring at for years now."
 
Really? And what are the grounds for this belief? Is there ANY real proof that fans have any impact on typical BCCI decisions? I am not talking of firing SG here -- that happens once in a lifetime for most people. HOW do fans affect BCCI?

The routine is indeed familiar -- selectors make their selections, the team fails, and we shoot down some imaginary fans who caused all of this by imposing their will on the selectors.

Let's discuss it even further -- who are these fans who value superstars more than the team? Fineleg, why don't you start a pol and ask people? I bet you 5 bucks that more than 90% will say they support the team (I should have said 99% but I am cheap ).

Ok, so who are these multitudes of fans who are fans of SRT/RD/SG first and India next? Are they likely to admit it? If not, how does PP know that the typical fan subscribes to that theory? I do not object to the assumption that there are some such people -- but is the typical fan like that? Where is the proof?

In summary, I find nothing in the article of any substance other than wishful thinking that by dropping people left and right we could vastly improve the team.

-P

[kban1]

DD

IMO, there is plenty to debate about it.
-What are these specific values, and how are they aligned with this phenomenon? (agree with you that by no means does it imply that the fan is not supporting the team)
-What are the values in societies without such star worship? Does such a society even exist? If not, why is it that fans in India go to such extremes, for example the vandalizing of Kaif's house?
-Keeping the fans' issue apart, is such a mentality present in the BCCI and its selectors? Should they not be above such biases if they are going to do what is best for Indian cricket?
-Do we, on the DG, embody a similar mentality? Is there a way we can discuss it amongst ourselves in order to bring about a shift, however small?

Yes now we are talking. These are pertinent points, none of which that the article alludes to other than brushing on the symptom which is self evident (as jfk and I alluded to earlier).

Start with the BCCI -- The BCCI and its office holders are political animals. They will blow whichever way the political wind  (read public opinion blows) or alternatively, whatever will help them settle grouses with their foes --and if in the process it affects the team , then so be it.

Admittedly the above is generalized but we have seen enough instances to know that neither is the BCCI above petty squabbling, nor do the have the welfare of Indian cricket in mind --that is welfare outside the scope of churning out big profits.

So If you want a bias free BCCI or one that does not act selfishly out of self interest (political & financial), then have the set up changed to a professional one.

if bias has to be overcome, get rid of a selection system that is based on regional affiliation and support --which of course wont happen because the system is one way of apeasing the vote bank.

How about a society without star worship ? IMO, it does not exist. Enough Pyschological and sociological studies have been conducted to explain the star / celebrity phenomenon and the need for the common masses to identify with a highly visible figure -- to feel proud, to feel good, to belong, for inspiration --the list of reasons are numerous.

Every society has them (not just India). The problem is that our level of excellence has only two mediums -- cricket and the arts (movies, music, art), simply because  a nation of 1 billion does not have any other sport worth a damn in which it comes close to competeing at a high enough level (days of glory in hockey are long gone and in tennis, our individual stars are not at a level high enough to command the star value that creates iconic status).

So what are we left with ? We are left with 1 billion people or at least half a billion people whose hopes, aspirations, inspiration, pride is embodied in a team of 15 individuals, 5-6 of whom at best come close to being world class and therefore icons.

For a nation deprived of success in many fields, for a vast majority of people in the throes of poverty, for many others who live  a mundane day to day existence owing to their socio economic stagnation and the rigors of  living hand to mouth, a star, an icon, a hero offers a glimmer of hope --the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel.

Their identification with excellence and glory comes through their support of such stars. Is it any wonder then that a nation bereft of stars (in numbers) focuses that much more passionately (and often irrationally) on the fortunes of the hope bearers (the stars) ?

Every nation does that except there is more than a handful to like & adore. Furthermore, the level of desperation and despondency is substantiually mitigated by the presence of a semblance of purpose and hope in their individual lives.

Given all this, is it a surprise that our fans react this way ?

Take the DG for example -- mostly educated guys, yet even here some of the feelings percolate over, but in my opinion at  a much lesser level than the general populace (I say this excluding the SG episode, simply because had it just been SG I have serious doubts whether this level of support or outcry would have been involved even if he were axed --the situation had extraneous factors which I think has exacerbated the fan response even on this DG).

[kban1]

prfsr:

well said, applause.

Also, I would like to add that many of the points I made in my earlier post about fan identification with Stars / icons / heroes is very much applicable to their support of the cricket team -- again the performance of the team in this case becomes the morale booster

[fineleg]

One of the additions to above is also "living in past glory".

One does not want to let go of superstars even though at current they do not deliver. Kind of living in the past and fantasizing that one fine day somehow all these things will become better.

[ruchir]

KBAN, PRFSR, JFK --

Are you guys saying that PP shold not have written this blog post at all?

In that case, what about all those articles written by LPS on SG, when SG was out of the team?? Those articles were all saying the things that everyone knew, or at least claimed to know. Why did you guys not point LPS out at that time. Why did you not say that "Oh, LPS is an opportunist. Look at the timing of his article. What is he writing new, that we don't already know??"

How come you are attacking PP over his comment ON HIS BLOG (for god's sake) and not attacking LPS for his articles in a major (alleged) newspaper - ABP??

That's surprising to me.....

And for commenting on the timing of PP's post, would you mind telling me WHAT is the right time to publish this post?? When our team is going great guns and fans are praising them to heaven?? Will that be the right time for PP to publish his post??

[toney]

flute,
are you threatening kban by saying that you will use his logic against him? Not fair!!

[fineleg]

flute,
are you threatening kban by saying that you will use his logic against him? Not fair!!

 

[fineleg]

KBAN, PRFSR, JFK --

Are you guys saying that PP shold not have written this blog post at all?

In that case, what about all those articles written by LPS on SG, when SG was out of the team?? Those articles were all saying the things that everyone knew, or at least claimed to know. Why did you guys not point LPS out at that time. Why did you not say that "Oh, LPS is an opportunist. Look at the timing of his article. What is he writing new, that we don't already know??"

How come you are attacking PP over his comment ON HIS BLOG (for god's sake) and not attacking LPS for his articles in a major (alleged) newspaper - ABP??

That's surprising to me.....

And for commenting on the timing of PP's post, would you mind telling me WHAT is the right time to publish this post?? When our team is going great guns and fans are praising them to heaven?? Will that be the right time for PP to publish his post??

Is LPS and Tel and ABP the only fair and unbiased reporting mechanisms?
I agree with RJo's question of what is wrong in PP writing this, why should it deserve any scoffing?

[toney]

KBAN, PRFSR, JFK --

Are you guys saying that PP shold not have written this blog post at all?

In that case, what about all those articles written by LPS on SG, when SG was out of the team?? Those articles were all saying the things that everyone knew, or at least claimed to know. Why did you guys not point LPS out at that time. Why did you not say that "Oh, LPS is an opportunist. Look at the timing of his article. What is he writing new, that we don't already know??"

How come you are attacking PP over his comment ON HIS BLOG (for god's sake) and not attacking LPS for his articles in a major (alleged) newspaper - ABP??

That's surprising to me.....

And for commenting on the timing of PP's post, would you mind telling me WHAT is the right time to publish this post?? When our team is going great guns and fans are praising them to heaven?? Will that be the right time for PP to publish his post??

Is LPS and Tel and ABP the only fair and unbiased reporting mechanisms?
I agree with RJo's question of what is wrong in PP writing this, why should it deserve any scoffing?

because PP is bald and ugly while LPSahi is a hunk

[ruchir]

KBAN, PRFSR, JFK --

Are you guys saying that PP shold not have written this blog post at all?

In that case, what about all those articles written by LPS on SG, when SG was out of the team?? Those articles were all saying the things that everyone knew, or at least claimed to know. Why did you guys not point LPS out at that time. Why did you not say that "Oh, LPS is an opportunist. Look at the timing of his article. What is he writing new, that we don't already know??"

How come you are attacking PP over his comment ON HIS BLOG (for god's sake) and not attacking LPS for his articles in a major (alleged) newspaper - ABP??

That's surprising to me.....

And for commenting on the timing of PP's post, would you mind telling me WHAT is the right time to publish this post?? When our team is going great guns and fans are praising them to heaven?? Will that be the right time for PP to publish his post??

Is LPS and Tel and ABP the only fair and unbiased reporting mechanisms?
I agree with RJo's question of what is wrong in PP writing this, why should it deserve any scoffing?

because PP is bald and ugly while LPSahi is a hunk

 

[kban1]

ruchir:

Are you guys saying that PP shold not have written this blog post at all?

Hey its his blog, he can write it any time he wants. he has a right to his opinion just as we have a right to critique it on our DG once it has been opened up for discussion here.

In that case, what about all those articles written by LPS on SG, when SG was out of the team?? Those articles were all saying the things that everyone knew, or at least claimed to know. Why did you guys not point LPS out at that time. Why did you not say that "Oh, LPS is an opportunist. Look at the timing of his article. What is he writing new, that we don't already know??"

Wrong analog. LP Sahi wrote about several things we did not know. Just as PP has written about things that we did not know -- BCCI accounts and ways of functioning for one. None of those issues writings of PP were criticized.

And you missed the argument if you interpreted my comments to mean that we are suggesting PP is an opportunits to comment now. My points were simple

1) This is a self evident truth that many fans are star centric --repeated numerous times by many. Its a fact of life with no ST solution (I explained why in my response to DD) so there is no use crying oneself hoarse and somehow holding this mythical mad maniacal body of fans responsible for India's performance, BBCI's selection issues or ineptness.

2) The timing is curious because of past history -- PP has never been shy at taking digs at fans of a particular player at any and every opportunity, even going to the extent of taking digs when other players such as VVS were dropped. He did make the assertion (numerous times) that these fans were unpatriotic, did not support the team, were willing to see the team fail etc etc, and he made these allegations when India was doing well too.

These comments were made when murmurs became louder about the process and its failures --the veiled (maybe not so veiled) dig is that supporters of the stars are murmuring or shouting when the team is failing --all because they want their star back even at the cost of the team failing.

As prfsr explained, the whole argument about people supporting a player and not the team is a little frivolous and PP was one of the original proponents of this argument and surprisingly many have bought it and used it to make a point, irrespective of the fact that it is structured on tortured logic to begin with.

3) The opportunism or the lack of uniform standards comes in because of history --history has shown PP quick on the draw to castigate fans (to the extent of questioning their patriotism to negate their arguments) for their alleged short sightedness in backing the star too much, yet he himself has been awfully short in coming forward to critique the Indian team, its captain, or the coach when the opportunity has called for the same. The same is true of criticism of the bCCI under the new and favored administration --which reflects a different form of fan worship, the inability to criticize people who he has supported.

And therein lies the irony -- for one so utterly incapable of maintaining even standards, for one who has shown that he cannot criticize his favorites when the time comes for it, criticizing other fans worshipping stars and insinuating lack of patriotism, is way too rich --and thats putting it mildly.

How come you are attacking PP over his comment ON HIS BLOG (for god's sake) and not attacking LPS for his articles in a major (alleged) newspaper - ABP??  That's surprising to me.....

Sahi writes for Telegraph, your alleged chuckle over alleged major newspapers notwithstanding

And Sahi has in fact written against SG. Which is a little more than what can be said for PP and people he supports.

And for commenting on the timing of PP's post, would you mind telling me WHAT is the right time to publish this post?? When our team is going great guns and fans are praising them to heaven?? Will that be the right time for PP to publish his post??

Please read above.

[kban1]

flute:

also, rest assured, this logic will revisit everyone pretty soon. Please don't complain when I choose to pick my interpretation mode.

Pick your interpretation mode anytime my friend.

Do recall what I said -- interpretation mode is up to the reader of an article. Its a free country --you are free to choose your opinion and express it and I might or might not agree with you depending on what you say.

But I shall never restrict you from expressing your opinion or choosing your interpretation mode

kban saab, taariq dilwana hame bhi aata hain..bus aap entezaar keeziye for a taste of your own medicine 

Intezaar ka Imtihaan ho gaye. Aarson beete, aap marij ke liye dawaa na laye    

Bring it on my friend -- we shall discuss as befitting of a DG   

[prfsr]

KBAN, PRFSR, JFK --

Are you guys saying that PP shold not have written this blog post at all?

Ruchir,
I do not see that any of the rest of what you said is relevant - given that I had NOT posted in this thread at all.

I have no problems PP writing whatever he wants. He has the right to write, we have the right to critique, as always. I did not think it was worth a critique until people demanded one on this thread

We all blow off steam, rant and do other things that are not always logical or analytical. I have no problems with that. IMO PP is just doing that. A problem with blogs is that the quality of thinking behind the writing is often very variable. Like many other people PP rambles and is incoherant at times. I have no problem with that. I did not criticize him w.r.t. timing or any such issues.

-P

[prfsr]

kban,
Thanks!
-P

[prfsr]

Every society has them (not just India). The problem is that our level of excellence has only two mediums -- cricket and the arts (movies, music, art), simply because  a nation of 1 billion does not have any other sport worth a damn in which it comes close to competeing at a high enough level (days of glory in hockey are long gone and in tennis, our individual stars are not at a level high enough to command the star value that creates iconic status).

So what are we left with ? We are left with 1 billion people or at least half a billion people whose hopes, aspirations, inspiration, pride is embodied in a team of 15 individuals, 5-6 of whom at best come close to being world class and therefore icons.

For a nation deprived of success in many fields, for a vast majority of people in the throes of poverty, for many others who live  a mundane day to day existence owing to their socio economic stagnation and the rigors of  living hand to mouth, a star, an icon, a hero offers a glimmer of hope --the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel.

Their identification with excellence and glory comes through their support of such stars. Is it any wonder then that a nation bereft of stars (in numbers) focuses that much more passionately (and often irrationally) on the fortunes of the hope bearers (the stars) ?

Kban,
I both agree and disagree I am not really sure whose hopes and aspirations lie with the cricket team. I think instead that t hey follow it closely given the close media coverage and because we have some international standing. I am not sure there are millions of people who really derive any hope from the team.

Where I do not agree is that we are world class in many other sports and many other fields of life -- somehow that does not appeal to the masses. How many people would recognize Anand for example? Or worse still a Dibyendu Barua? Yet these people have achieved nothing less than a SRT, I would argue.

I think one reason that people are more personality-oriented (and by that I do not mean that they support the team less) is that we have often had a SMG or  Kapil or a Mankad or the spin trio before that but rarely any consistent successes. So it is IMO a chicken-and-egg problem.

-P

[VMenon]

because PP is bald and ugly while LPSahi is a hunk
[/quote]
HUnk??

[justforkix]

Thanks for bringing the focus back.
Becos this was written by PP it is being... how do I describe... this is article is being <sub achu's fav word> on.
I'll change the TITLE to remove PP from it, and then see if folks can actually get to "discuss".

how brilliant and innovative !!! 2 days after posting the article 

Kix,
It is not supposed to be brill or inn...it is a DESPERATE attempt.
2 days before I thought ppl can still discuss despite it being an article by PP *and* it is being posted by Finey!
But, no PP + Finey posting in DG = against SG = no discussion.

Depending on who is posting (be it article author or DG poster), everything is based on 'who'.

what I meant is it is futile to do so after 2 days, when most regular members who post have already gone thru' this thread.

And what is the point in modifying the title ?!? I really don't understand. It'll make more folks open the thread !!!!!!!!

[achutank]

Thanks for bringing the focus back.
Becos this was written by PP it is being... how do I describe... this is article is being <sub achu's fav word> on.
I'll change the TITLE to remove PP from it, and then see if folks can actually get to "discuss".

how brilliant and innovative !!! 2 days after posting the article 

Kix,
It is not supposed to be brill or inn...it is a DESPERATE attempt.
2 days before I thought ppl can still discuss despite it being an article by PP *and* it is being posted by Finey!
But, no PP + Finey posting in DG = against SG = no discussion.

Depending on who is posting (be it article author or DG poster), everything is based on 'who'.

what I meant is it is futile to do so after 2 days, when most regular members who post have already gone thru' this thread.

And what is the point in modifying the title ?!? I really don't understand. It'll make more folks open the thread !!!!!!!!

eh finey? et tu?

note to SGUSA - one of the boyz needs a hug. 

[justforkix]

One of the additions to above is also "living in past glory".

One does not want to let go of superstars even though at current they do not deliver. Kind of living in the past and fantasizing that one fine day somehow all these things will become better.

Again, I repeat, PP is just stating an obvious and known issue of star worship in Indian cricket. Is he offering a solution - NO..... Is he even discussing it ?!? NO.

Aren't PP and his peer journalists equally, if not more responsible for glorfying individual achievements in a team sport ?!? Media is a reflection of society and vice versa. A majority of fans actually puts the individual over the team and not vice versa.

It is always very easy to stand on a high pedestal and preach this and that. It is more difficult to offer solutions. I can also say that India will progress only when corruption is eliminated. Heck who doesen't know that. But where is the solution.....

Look at articles by Barry Richards, Ian Chappell etc. They offer very practical and implementable solutions.

Ruchir - PP can write whatever he wants in his blog, in rediff, wherever. So, are you saying we have no right to say that what he's saying is obvious, crap etc. or for that matter he should not have written it etc. PP as a journalist can write what he wants. We, as readers can critique it.

Are you guys saying that PP shold not have written this blog post at all?

In that case, what about all those articles written by LPS on SG, when SG was out of the team?? Those articles were all saying the things that everyone knew, or at least claimed to know. Why did you guys not point LPS out at that time. Why did you not say that "Oh, LPS is an opportunist. Look at the timing of his article. What is he writing new, that we don't already know??"

How come you are attacking PP over his comment ON HIS BLOG (for god's sake) and not attacking LPS for his articles in a major (alleged) newspaper - ABP??

HEH. I remember reading suraj's comments yesterday about SG-fans putting down anti-SG comments like SG's slow 100 in ZIm by saying that - so what RD did it, SRT did it too etc. etc.

Isin't your post along the same lines .

I can assure you, if LPS states something so obvious, I will say that is crap too.

[suraj]

Thanks for bringing the focus back.
Becos this was written by PP it is being... how do I describe... this is article is being <sub achu's fav word> on.
I'll change the TITLE to remove PP from it, and then see if folks can actually get to "discuss".

how brilliant and innovative !!! 2 days after posting the article 

Kix,
It is not supposed to be brill or inn...it is a DESPERATE attempt.
2 days before I thought ppl can still discuss despite it being an article by PP *and* it is being posted by Finey!
But, no PP + Finey posting in DG = against SG = no discussion.

Depending on who is posting (be it article author or DG poster), everything is based on 'who'.

what I meant is it is futile to do so after 2 days, when most regular members who post have already gone thru' this thread.

And what is the point in modifying the title ?!? I really don't understand. It'll make more folks open the thread !!!!!!!!

and how do you know that is not the objective anyway

[jaat69]

One of the additions to above is also "living in past glory".

One does not want to let go of superstars even though at current they do not deliver. Kind of living in the past and fantasizing that one fine day somehow all these things will become better.

Again, I repeat, PP is just stating an obvious and known issue of star worship in Indian cricket. Is he offering a solution - NO..... Is he even discussing it ?!? NO.

Aren't PP and his peer journalists equally, if not more responsible for glorfying individual achievements in a team sport ?!? Media is a reflection of society and vice versa. A majority of fans actually puts the individual over the team and not vice versa.

It is always very easy to stand on a high pedestal and preach this and that. It is more difficult to offer solutions. I can also say that India will progress only when corruption is eliminated. Heck who doesen't know that. But where is the solution.....

Look at articles by Barry Richards, Ian Chappell etc. They offer very practical and implementable solutions.

Ruchir - PP can write whatever he wants in his blog, in rediff, wherever. So, are you saying we have no right to say that what he's saying is obvious, crap etc. or for that matter he should not have written it etc. PP as a journalist can write what he wants. We, as readers can critique it.

Are you guys saying that PP shold not have written this blog post at all?

In that case, what about all those articles written by LPS on SG, when SG was out of the team?? Those articles were all saying the things that everyone knew, or at least claimed to know. Why did you guys not point LPS out at that time. Why did you not say that "Oh, LPS is an opportunist. Look at the timing of his article. What is he writing new, that we don't already know??"

How come you are attacking PP over his comment ON HIS BLOG (for god's sake) and not attacking LPS for his articles in a major (alleged) newspaper - ABP??

HEH. I remember reading suraj's comments yesterday about SG-fans putting down anti-SG comments like SG's slow 100 in ZIm by saying that - so what RD did it, SRT did it too etc. etc.

Isin't your post along the same lines .

I can assure you, if LPS states something so obvious, I will say that is crap too.

I agree.
Also, there is a difference between the Footbal fan following and cricket fan following.
As someone mentioned that in USA, they support a football team madly, and not an individual.
Well, the same thing happens in India too, atleast in football.
Ask a Kolkattan and he will be a fan of either East Bengal or MohunBagan and not of any individual player, as becoz the players keep changing the teams every season, but the teams remain with their historical backgrounds, etc.
PP has every right to express his opinion and we have every right to find faults and loop-holes in it.
In this particular article too, there is no novelty in his refrain.
Indian cricket fans are just like that. Who are we to change that!
Talking about the Team performances, whether SG's days are numbered or not is not pertinent all alone. We need to examine whether GC's coaching is living past its sale-by date, whether RD's captaincy is living past its sale-by date, whether SRT and VS are being retained due to their past performances, ..............and all these at the expense of the Indian team!

[achutank]

well said jaat69

[fineleg]

B.S.A! (Backslapping alert).

[achutank]

B.S.A! (Backslapping alert).

 

what a one track mind there finey...you are letting it hang too long with teh boyz

[fineleg]

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

[justforkix]

B.S.A! (Backslapping alert).

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

BAH !!!! you think PP made some profound discovery or what..... I think this is a BS article and stating the obvious without offering any suggestions, ideas, or solutions as to alleviate the problem. Don't think itz worth the discussion. I will feel the same way even if it was written by LPS and posted by kban !!!!!

[fineleg]

B.S.A! (Backslapping alert).

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

BAH !!!! you think PP made some profound discovery or what..... I think this is a BS article and stating the obvious without offering any suggestions, ideas, or solutions as to alleviate the problem. Don't think itz worth the discussion. I will feel the same way even if it was written by LPS and posted by kban !!!!!

If ur consistent, fair enough. Thats ur POV then on this topic no matter who says it.

[Shukla]

While I havent read all the posts on this thread, it seems to me that the attitude of fans or lack of bench strength is NOT the reason behind our heroic performances recently (and hence fixing that will not bring about the team's revival). The team was doing just fine in 2003 with the same fan base and the same bench strength.

[MockTurtle]

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

what's the reality, f'leg?

[justforkix]

B.S.A! (Backslapping alert).

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

BAH !!!! you think PP made some profound discovery or what..... I think this is a BS article and stating the obvious without offering any suggestions, ideas, or solutions as to alleviate the problem. Don't think itz worth the discussion. I will feel the same way even if it was written by LPS and posted by kban !!!!!

If ur consistent, fair enough. Thats ur POV then on this topic no matter who says it.

So, how about stop getting hysterical and making bold, colorful posts and give your POV too. kban & prfsr raised some valid pts. how abt replying to them ?!?

[fineleg]

Dude,
Nah, its some folks with the one track thats refusing to see reality...but thats for another day.

what's the reality, f'leg?

This is so inviting, should I take the bait
I'd rather not...but a short one...

Reality is some(many?) ppl are not as interested in the perf of the team and what is best for the team. Rather they wish their star players are part of the 11/15. And many are against "foreigner" coach idea esp one who demands perf from any player or kicks him out if no perf. One who demands that attitude has to be correct, and not the Mighty Lord Snooty types will not be tolerated.

Ok, took the bait, but prob should stop here.