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[inoc]

Kapil raps Chappell again

New Delhi: Former India captain Kapil Dev has described coach Greg Chappell as “stubborn” and an “over indulgent experimenter” who had left the top players in the team as an insecured lot due to his limited understanding of the culture of the sub-continent.

“Insecurity may work in a culture like Australia where people pick up a box and shift cities next day. Insecurity does not work in a culture like ours, where entire existence is based on our craving for security,” Kapil said.

“...But Greg does not seem to understand this culture. He does not understand that (in India) insecurity can’t give you solid results. Instead, it shakes people’s confidence.

“Such man is either very stubborn or his level of thinking is so high that it is not understood by ordinary people like us,” said the World Cup winning captain, who has also coached the national team.

Kapil said Sachin Tendulkar was past his prime but not at a stage to announce retirement. “Sachin will never bat like we saw him a few years back in Sharjah or Australia... We get very emotional about this... Expect him to perform at the same level. But that’s like building castles in the air... We give Sachin respect for what he has already achieved. We expect him to play on until he’s 50 years old,” he said.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1061022/asp/sports/story_6902577.asp

[suraj]

Praaji is talking too much nowdays

[Cover Point]

Praji seems to be feeling insecure again.

Why doesnt he go and tell this to the new class of upcoming Indians who are rising and changing jobs every six months? How come they dont feel insecure.

Yeda hoyela hai saala. Dimag ka firki ghumela hai. Saale ko apna value ki insecurity hoyela. Kaan ke peeche ek rapda dene ka to saara dimag theek ho jayega!

(watching Munna Bhai again )

[dhruvdeepak]

kapil is one of that pathetic crew of backward coaches who didnt do b*lls for our team. just reading JW's book I realized what a sorry state of affairs the Indian team was in the 90s. i mean, i take care of my fitness better than the Indian players used to! we were severely short-changed in the 90s. the rest of the world picked up on fitness and fielding and maintaining their bodies like athletes do, while our guys would ride the cycle machine in the gym whilst eating pakodas. yeah, pakodas is a nice culture too, but i would rather have cheered for a team that jogged a mile or three every day.

[pieterSAN]

kapil is one of that pathetic crew of backward coaches who didnt do b*lls for our team. just reading JW's book I realized what a sorry state of affairs the Indian team was in the 90s. i mean, i take care of my fitness better than the Indian players used to! we were severely short-changed in the 90s. the rest of the world picked up on fitness and fielding and maintaining their bodies like athletes do, while our guys would ride the cycle machine in the gym whilst eating pakodas. yeah, pakodas is a nice culture too, but i would rather have cheered for a team that jogged a mile or three every day.

All this talk about fitness breeds insecurity in Indians. It's not in our kulcher.

[Poochandi]

but i would rather have cheered for a team that jogged a mile or three every day.

I wiil cheer only we win. winning not minnows or giving caonfidence to minnows for tough fight win. Winning real lions like West Indhiayrkal did against Australia.

[Blwe_torch]

Kapil praaji gave us our only WC.
Let someone else do an encore and then we shall listen to whether, he deserves a thrashing or not!
Fitness isn't a bad thing to have, but more important is talent and character. That is the secret of a champion team. They ave the right balance of fitness, talent and character. India, at the moment is short of character, IMO.............Lets hope they score on this, on their lead to the WC07.

[Cover Point]

Blwe's solution

Since India currently lacks character lets attack anyone who works on their fitness! We really eed Kapil back as coach. Hmm let me think the last time he was coach and we had talent (SG, Dravid, Sachin etc in batting and all at the top of their game) and we visited Aus we did so well.

Yup let those idiot Aussies work on their fitness in the Gym. We will build character. I mean get those Vada pao's and eat them with a side of Pakoras and Malai Chai. Kya character banta hai!

Swami bi-two coffee kudi (with some tandoori chicken!)

[dextrous]

Blwe's solution

Since India currently lacks character lets attack anyone who works on their fitness! We really eed Kapil back as coach. Hmm let me think the last time he was coach and we had talent (SG, Dravid, Sachin etc in batting and all at the top of their game) and we visited Aus we did so well.

Yup let those idiot Aussies work on their fitness in the Gym. We will build character. I mean get those Vada pao's and eat them with a side of Pakoras and Malai Chai. Kya character banta hai!

Swami bi-two coffee kudi (with some tandoori chicken!)

No, no...let's make everyone into a body-builder, that will ALONE bring us the World Cup.

And Kapil Dev, of course, was the most unfit athlete EVER IN THE WORLD!

[Cover Point]

Blwe's solution

Since India currently lacks character lets attack anyone who works on their fitness! We really eed Kapil back as coach. Hmm let me think the last time he was coach and we had talent (SG, Dravid, Sachin etc in batting and all at the top of their game) and we visited Aus we did so well.

Yup let those idiot Aussies work on their fitness in the Gym. We will build character. I mean get those Vada pao's and eat them with a side of Pakoras and Malai Chai. Kya character banta hai!

Swami bi-two coffee kudi (with some tandoori chicken!)

No, no...let's make everyone into a body-builder, that will ALONE bring us the World Cup.

And Kapil Dev, of course, was the most unfit athlete EVER IN THE WORLD!

[edited by admin]

Back to topic, Dex where did I say that this ALONE would do it? The point is that yes this would help along with talent and other things. BUT This is a BIG part of maximizing your talent. Sitting on an exercise bike and ordering Pakoras will not help you get the best out of yourself. Andwhen did I say Kapil was unfit?

These athletes want the millions that come from their fame, but dont want to work hard.

Kapil in the original article just attacked the idea of "change" and "insecurity" in the team which is as dumb as a naked man walking into a beehive with honey on his balls!

What does he want ... give the playerssecure jobs till they are 58?

[prfsr]

Strawmen and irrelevant arguments, personal attacks on critics - surely GC deserves better from his supporters?

What do people voluntarily changing jobs have to do with Kapil's arguments?
Just like nobody said talent alone is enough, nobody said fitness alone is enough. Historically we have had extremely fit cricketers and some extremely unfit matchwinners. Imagine Bedi or Vishy never playing for India. Or Kumble.

Also Kapil never mentioned pakoras. DD did. There were fit and unfit players when Kapil was a player, when he was a coach and afterwards. He said nothing about thius, at least in this article. His point was that there was too much insecurity in the current team.

Perhaps he knows that or perhaps it is a conjecture. Why that implies that *he* is insecure or he wants players to play until 58 is beyond me.

In any case there has to be a compromise. Some insecurity is good and yet in EVERY culture people need security. E.g. people buy houses in the US assuming that they will not get fired every week. People do get fired unexpectedly but hopefully only a FEW times over their lifetime. Very few people *plan* on changing jobs every six months. Even fewer people with families do so. In any case we are not talking club switching here -- there is only one national team Indian players can play for. I would like to know about a theory of management which encourages zero job security.

Finally it is not the case that people do not have security in the current setup. Some people do and some people do not. People are the "future of Indian cricket" in a series and dropped for good the next. This inconsistency is a bigger problem in my opinion.

-P

[inoc]

prfsr

very good post. applause.

[Vick]

Praji seems to be feeling insecure again.

Why doesnt he go and tell this to the new class of upcoming Indians who are rising and changing jobs every six months? How come they dont feel insecure.

Yeda hoyela hai saala. Dimag ka firki ghumela hai. Saale ko apna value ki insecurity hoyela. Kaan ke peeche ek rapda dene ka to saara dimag theek ho jayega!

(watching Munna Bhai again )

They move to ANOTHER job not to a NO job. There is huge difference between two.  And yes we Indian are still quite insecure about our future. Very unlike Australia where even a carpenter will lead to a decent life after dropping out from school.

[Cover Point]

The higher the risk the higher the reward. Usually no one pays u millions of dollars to sit at a secure job which has no risk.

So the no job thing is countered by the high rewards that they got. And this NO job is actually an exaggeration. Once u have been in the Indian team ur name recognition makes u pretty saleable (for jobs that will pay a lot less yes but a decent pay... better than that carpenter u mention). And in anycase it isnt a no job even in that sense ... u do still get to play for ur state team... and today even that pays well.

So Vicky Bhai ... thodi kam lambi chhodo (The second h just for you Ruchir!)

I think this whole notion of security of positions in the team is what I have a problem with. At this level u need to consistently keep proving yourself. If that security is provided then we see what happens to great players like Ganguly and ZK (and ZK in particular). They stop working hard and become complacent!

Just because Kapil (whose coaching credentials are so awesome! ... remember we are talking about his coaching! and not his great playing skills) is jealous that he doesnt have the current position doesnt mean that he wasnt a great player at one time.

[flute202020]

I think this is one thing that keeps happening on this DG which I don't like. When kapil talked about Sg's retirement, everyone attacked kapil personally bringing up how he himself hung around much longer. When he gives his views on GC, his own coaching credentials and intentions are questioned. All this not to say that I think Kapil is eloquent and balanced in his views. But, his own record and intentions need not brought into question to refute his take on various issues. for all we know, he probably realises by now that he was a failure as a coach, but it should not take away anything from him so far as his views about coaching or matter cricket are concerned. Afterall, if we employ that criteria, none on this thread are more qualified than him in expressing his view.

my 2 cents

[Cover Point]

A fair point flute, though my angle was that there could be an agenda in his comments or attacks on the current coach. If he holds coaching asperations (and there is nothing that says that he doesnt... he talks about coaching the Aussies too ) then this attack on the "foreignness makes sense!

[Vick]

The higher the risk the higher the reward. Usually no one pays u millions of dollars to sit at a secure job which has no risk.

So the no job thing is countered by the high rewards that they got. And this NO job is actually an exaggeration. Once u have been in the Indian team ur name recognition makes u pretty saleable (for jobs that will pay a lot less yes but a decent pay... better than that carpenter u mention). And in anycase it isnt a no job even in that sense ... u do still get to play for ur state team... and today even that pays well.

So Vicky Bhai ... thodi kam lambi chhodo (The second h just for you Ruchir!)

I think this whole notion of security of positions in the team is what I have a problem with. At this level u need to consistently keep proving yourself. If that security is provided then we see what happens to great players like Ganguly and ZK (and ZK in particular). They stop working hard and become complacent!

Just because Kapil (whose coaching credentials are so awesome! ... remember we are talking about his coaching! and not his great playing skills) is jealous that he doesnt have the current position doesnt mean that he wasnt a great player at one time.

So you are saying that people dont get insecure when they are demoted? Specially when that demotion means getting atleast 50 times less pay check as is the difference between an India player and that of from a State. Why not ask JP Yadav how secure/insecure he feels?
Sure the rewards are higher but so is the possibility of a failure and that does bring in insecurity. And while in India the difference between a team India player and that of a carpernter is HUGE in western countries it is not. And thats where i think Kapil is coming from.
ZK's case is sure good one to look at. Has he improved greatly after he was kicked out? I dont think so. We kept him in the team because at that time he was prolly satill better than others. And if you look back at those days you will find that Bala and Pathan's way wasnt really blocked by an non-performing ZK.

[ruchir]

So you are saying that people dont get insecure when they are demoted? Specially when that demotion means getting atleast 50 times less pay check as is the difference between an India player and that of from a State. Why not ask JP Yadav how secure/insecure he feels?
Sure the rewards are higher but so is the possibility of a failure and that does bring in insecurity. And while in India the difference between a team India player and that of a carpernter is HUGE in western countries it is not. And thats where i think Kapil is coming from.
ZK's case is sure good one to look at. Has he improved greatly after he was kicked out? I dont think so. We kept him in the team because at that time he was prolly satill better than others. And if you look back at those days you will find that Bala and Pathan's way wasnt really blocked by an non-performing ZK.

VICK -- Not sure what you are trying to say here, specially with the AUS circketer and carpenter example. I mean, an AUS cricketer earns close to half a million AU dollars where as an AUS carpenter would probably make 60-70K there (unless he was making antique quality pieces, in which case he would own a company, not work hands-on himself). There is a HUGE difference between the two, not close to nothing that you perceive.

What you mean to say (I am guessing) is that even a carpenter can live a comfortable life in AUS (in the 60-70K he makes), unlike in India. And that bring out insecurity in Indians. I think most of us would agree to that. So what's the point?

You say that a state player make 50 times less that a Team India player. Probably so. So what? Are you saying that because that happens, once a player gets into Team India and starts earning more, he should not be demoted out of the team?? Because then he will earn less?? Why so? Why should a player not be demoted if his performance is found lacking or, say, an even better player is discovered? Why should we not give that even better player a chance?

As CP said, with high risks come high rewards. When a player is selected in Team India, there should be certain minimum expectations that are expected from him. These expectations should be made known to him. It should be told to clearly, what are the minimum performance criterias that he should always pass, in order to stay in team. This is fair, in my opinion. You can't just select a player in Team India and tell him, "Hey, You're in now. You have 6 months. We'll appraise you after 6 months so do what you have to do". That can't happen, because within those 6 months the player will be complacent. He will think "Oh, good. Let me take it easy for first 3-4 months. Then I will give my best and selectors will only see that performance at the end because they have short memory".

So tell me. Who will be the loser? Team India, Player, or both?

On the other hand, if a player was told what the minimum requirements were from him and what the grace period is to bring himself back up, should he fall below the minimum requirements, the player would try to give his best at all times.

I'm not saying that this is what was/is happening KM/RD/GC or now under DV/RD/GC. I'm saying this is how I feel things should happen in team selection. No player should have a completely guaranteed secure place in the team. What should happen is that every player should be told of the minimum performance requirements from him and should be told that XYZ is the grace period he will get if he falls below the minimum performance requirements. If he fails to lift himself up, he's out. He should also be told that if another player is found as good as him (or better than him) who is competing for a place with him, the old player will be on notice to himself better than the new one. If in a comparison between them, the old player comes 2nd, sorry, he's out. However, all these comparisons etc. should be made after weighing current form, experience etc. of the older player and what the new player is bringing to the table.

This is how I feel our selection process should be (no saying this is how it is).

[Vick]

VICK -- Not sure what you are trying to say here, specially with the AUS circketer and carpenter example. I mean, an AUS cricketer earns close to half a million AU dollars where as an AUS carpenter would probably make 60-70K there (unless he was making antique quality pieces, in which case he would own a company, not work hands-on himself). There is a HUGE difference between the two, not close to nothing that you perceive.

What you mean to say (I am guessing) is that even a carpenter can live a comfortable life in AUS (in the 60-70K he makes), unlike in India. And that bring out insecurity in Indians. I think most of us would agree to that. So what's the point?

>And you couldnt get the connection between two? The difference between a carpenter's income and that of an Aussie crickets is less than their counter parts in India. In India people have more insecurties about their future than in Australia. And when you are delaing with the manpower you cant use same methods.

You say that a state player make 50 times less that a Team India player. Probably so. So what? Are you saying that because that happens, once a player gets into Team India and starts earning more, he should not be demoted out of the team?? Because then he will earn less?? Why so? Why should a player not be demoted if his performance is found lacking or, say, an even better player is discovered? Why should we not give that even better player a chance?

>>Thats what the teams of 90's used to do and we all know what kind of results we got from those teams. A team will always perform better IMO if there is stability. And if a sword is hanging on my head all the time i would like to perform for myself not for my Team. A prime example of which was Mongia's inning in DLF cup.  A player sure should be demoted and be left out of the team but only after he gets enough chance(which means atleast 5 Test or 15 ODI in my book).
Most of the time what i see one good inning from a new comer and every one starts shouting he should be included in the team. Case in point Piyush Chawla. I mean we dont even let our kids get mature in domestic and rush them to big field. Ever seen Aussies doing that? How many of their U19 have played with 1-2 years in last 10 years?

As CP said, with high risks come high rewards. When a player is selected in Team India, there should be certain minimum expectations that are expected from him. These expectations should be made known to him. It should be told to clearly, what are the minimum performance criterias that he should always pass, in order to stay in team. This is fair, in my opinion. You can't just select a player in Team India and tell him, "Hey, You're in now. You have 6 months. We'll appraise you after 6 months so do what you have to do". That can't happen, because within those 6 months the player will be complacent. He will think "Oh, good. Let me take it easy for first 3-4 months. Then I will give my best and selectors will only see that performance at the end because they have short memory".

>>Sure so if thats the criteria i guess we should drop RD from ODI team because he hasnt done much in last 2 series. We are not gonna wait for 6 months. Right? There is no doubt that there should be expectations from an International player but once they are given a chance they should be given enough time to prove themselves. Thats the reason i never like kids being rushed in to play with big boys.
As a leader you should be very selective and once you pick a player, you need to back him up. Give him confidence. The way someone like Pathan has been treated by the management doesnt look good atleast from outside.

So tell me. Who will be the loser? Team India, Player, or both?

On the other hand, if a player was told what the minimum requirements were from him and what the grace period is to bring himself back up, should he fall below the minimum requirements, the player would try to give his best at all times.

I'm not saying that this is what was/is happening KM/RD/GC or now under DV/RD/GC. I'm saying this is how I feel things should happen in team selection. No player should have a completely guaranteed secure place in the team. What should happen is that every player should be told of the minimum performance requirements from him and should be told that XYZ is the grace period he will get if he falls below the minimum performance requirements. If he fails to lift himself up, he's out. He should also be told that if another player is found as good as him (or better than him) who is competing for a place with him, the old player will be on notice to himself better than the new one. If in a comparison between them, the old player comes 2nd, sorry, he's out. However, all these comparisons etc. should be made after weighing current form, experience etc. of the older player and what the new player is bringing to the table.

This is how I feel our selection process should be (no saying this is how it is).

>>I agree with you here. Only problem is are they doing it? Have they done it with out most valuable ODI player of last season IP?

[inoc]

There has been job security in the Indian team not the other way round.

The batsmen have been virtually unchanged in the fifteen.
VS, SRT (when not injured), RD, YS, MK, SR and now DM in place of a poorly performing newcomer VR.
MSD has been our wicketkeeper.
A few more bowlers have been tried but still AA, MP, HS are certainties and IP, RPS, SS, RP rotated. VRV tried and discarded for the time being.
That amount of change is certainly allowed and has been going on in most teams including India all along.

So all those who are supporting the argument that job insecurity propels better performance note that it isn’t the case in the Indian side at the moment. In fact you could almost argue against it.

As far as I am concerned the insecurity is in perceived role of player.

VS – is he an opener or middle order bat?  Now determined on the basis of a half-hearted attempt.  If the decision was to try him out as a MO batsmen surely more chances should have been given. The experiment in my book was useless since it proved nothing.

RD – opener/no.3/ MO (again the decision now is based on, I believe, the current non performance of the MO) If he was just a filler till SRT returned then it is diabolical because we lost the chance to try out another opener who may be required if VS continues to disappoint.

MK – just about tried in any position and now not even in the first eleven. His role has been unidentified and remains so.

SR – is he just a fielder? His supposed bowling abilities haven’t been tried at all – if I remember correctly he has bowled five overs or so in the last year. Amongst all the experimentation this is one that was never tried. Woefully out of form he now has very little to fall back on.

IP – the greatest problem? He now makes the team as a batsman (sad days indeed, taking nothing away from his performance) he showed signs of improvement in his bowling in the last match and pray that continues. He also seems to be the Indian no.3 now – no experimentation, no surprises just a sure promotion to that spot. I say so because he has now batted in that position in all situations batting first/second/big total/small total etc.

There are problems with YS and MSD as well. YS in his batting position vs his batting style and Dhoni in not being used as a pinch hitter up the order where he has given us his best performances.

These are the insecurities we should be concentrating on and hopefully what Kapil Dev was referring to – cant be sure.

This is where I have a problem with the current Indian set up. We need to have by now defined a team for the world cup barring one or two replacements. We should by now have defined the roles of the different players barring a few experiments/ surprises. We should by now not be discussing this.

[sudzz]

Mr Dev is both right and wrong...

Right to the extent that yes there are a lot of us who crave for stability and like to maintain status quo (read as wallow in *). These are ones who resist change and fight tooth and nail and bring up Indian culture each time they open their mouth.

On the other hand, its time enough for Chapplle to have demonstrated the value of his coaching. We should have by now found a settled batting line up and more importantly a settled bowling line up. JW's reign was marked by a fairly settled batting line up and order and a bunch of 7-8 bowlers who were selected in roatation.

GC on the other hand has gone through a bunch of bowlers none finding any kind of rythm or consistency and the batting order keeps getting shuffled and now Iam begging to feel it is like throwing the kitchen sink when nothing else works...Not to sure if this is the right approach.

[suraj]

There has been job security in the Indian team not the other way round.

The batsmen have been virtually unchanged in the fifteen.
VS, SRT (when not injured), RD, YS, MK, SR and now DM in place of a poorly performing newcomer VR.
MSD has been our wicketkeeper.
A few more bowlers have been tried but still AA, MP, HS are certainties and IP, RPS, SS, RP rotated. VRV tried and discarded for the time being.
That amount of change is certainly allowed and has been going on in most teams including India all along.

So all those who are supporting the argument that job insecurity propels better performance note that it isn’t the case in the Indian side at the moment. In fact you could almost argue against it.

As far as I am concerned the insecurity is in perceived role of player.

VS – is he an opener or middle order bat?  Now determined on the basis of a half-hearted attempt.  If the decision was to try him out as a MO batsmen surely more chances should have been given. The experiment in my book was useless since it proved nothing.

RD – opener/no.3/ MO (again the decision now is based on, I believe, the current non performance of the MO) If he was just a filler till SRT returned then it is diabolical because we lost the chance to try out another opener who may be required if VS continues to disappoint.

MK – just about tried in any position and now not even in the first eleven. His role has been unidentified and remains so.

SR – is he just a fielder? His supposed bowling abilities haven’t been tried at all – if I remember correctly he has bowled five overs or so in the last year. Amongst all the experimentation this is one that was never tried. Woefully out of form he now has very little to fall back on.

IP – the greatest problem? He now makes the team as a batsman (sad days indeed, taking nothing away from his performance) he showed signs of improvement in his bowling in the last match and pray that continues. He also seems to be the Indian no.3 now – no experimentation, no surprises just a sure promotion to that spot. I say so because he has now batted in that position in all situations batting first/second/big total/small total etc.

There are problems with YS and MSD as well. YS in his batting position vs his batting style and Dhoni in not being used as a pinch hitter up the order where he has given us his best performances.

These are the insecurities we should be concentrating on and hopefully what Kapil Dev was referring to – cant be sure.

This is where I have a problem with the current Indian set up. We need to have by now defined a team for the world cup barring one or two replacements. We should by now have defined the roles of the different players barring a few experiments/ surprises. We should by now not be discussing this.

Great analysis inoc!!! Applause.

Some additional thot scome to mind but usless things like work are getting in the way so will post later

[keep-it-cool]

I think Kapil's motive (debateable as it may be) is besides the point here.

First, I do not think a little bit of insecurity is bad. If Indians are not used to it for cultural or historical reasons, they better get used to it fast. I did not play well because I was not confident of my spot in the team is definitely not an excuse that goes down well with me. Probably that is the reason why India chokes in must win matches - insecurity that if we lose, we are out.

Is there overt insecurity in the team? Does not seem to be the case. VS has had a very long run. Every one has complained that MK has had a very long run. Now, we are calling for Raina's head and in the same vein saying that players should be given security for their spots!! I think most players have had a fair run to prove themselves.

I agree entirely with Inoc that the uncertainty appears to be on what a player's role within the team is. I use the word "appears", because we do not know how far the changes in batting / bowling order and the rationale for the same are communicated to the players. Should this lead to insecurity? I see no reason why. Unless some players are worried that their spots may be taken over by someone else.