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[suraj]

http://ia.rediff.com/cricket/2006/aug/01wright.htm

'Ganguly made players feel they belonged'

August 01, 2006 17:00 IST


"Dressing rooms are not churches," says former India cricket coach John Wright, dismissing Sunil Gavaskar's claim that some Indian players abused him.

Gavaskar, who was batting consultant with the Indian team towards the end of Wright's four-year tenure, had written in a column that the players abused the New Zealander.

"If it happened, it was done in Hindi and behind my back, which is exactly what I would have expected," Wright says in his just-published book Indian Summers.

"When they trooped in after a sloppy session, I didn't pat them on the back and say 'well done lads'. I asked them where the bloody effort was," he writes.

The normally shy ex-New Zealand captain puts it bluntly thus: "If some of them called me a grumpy old bastard when I left them to think about it, so what? It wasn't beach cricket, and dressing rooms aren't churches."

Wright said he always encouraged the boys to be honest and upfront.

"If a player thought I was stuffing up, he had every right to say so, either in private or in front of the team.

"I wasn't backward in letting them know what I thought of their performances, and I had no problem with them doing the same to me."

The former cricketer says his intention was to create an honest and open environment where everyone could speak their minds without any fear.

"Most disagreements tended to be one-on-one behind closed doors, but if hard things had to be said in front of the entire group, so be it. We wanted an open and honest environment, and you only get that if everyone feels they can speak their mind without being jumped on and without people getting precious and taking offence."

Wright has also rubbished criticism that he was too soft with the players.

"From time to time outsiders who read too much into my public persona suggested that maybe I was too soft for the job, but I don't think that view held sway on the other side of the dressing room," he says.

The sweet-sour relationship Wright enjoyed with former India captain Sourav Ganguly comes through in the book with the ex-coach acknowledging that this relationship was the subject of "as much media speculation and gossip as a Bollywood marriage. And like any marriage, there was a

honeymoon period, then reality set in and we settled down for the long haul."

Ganguly's "high-handedness" often annoyed Wright, but he also secretly admired his "rebellious streak".

"His high-handedness often annoyed me, but I secretly admired his rebellious streak because it gave the team some pepper and it got up opposition noses, most famously Steve Waugh's."

Talking about Ganguly's penchant to rub the authority the wrong way, Wright says he had made it a "habit of getting offside with match referees".

"He and I have probably spent more time in disciplinary hearings than any other captain and coach. It must have been a combination of my flawed messages and Ganguly's blithe refusal to take the slightest notice of what anyone told him to do."

Wright says he began with the basics as far as dealing with the Prince of Kolkata was concerned.

"I thought I could help him tactically, but I began with the basics, suggesting that he get a new watch as it was important the captain was on time."

But there were issues on which Wright and Ganguly completely agreed on.

"The players had grown up in a culture of seniors and juniors... Ganguly and I were as one on this: it had to change. He was determined to create a new culture and did an admirable job of making the younger players feel that they belonged."

Wright also credits Ganguly for giving the youngsters in the team the "license to bite and snarl and set a maverick and defiant tone".

"He didn't give a stuff about convention, other people's expectations, niceties or officialdom -- especially match referees. On the face of it, we weren't a natural fit.

"It was never going to be sweetness and light, but in the end the issues that divided us - and there were a few ? were insubstantial compared to the cause in which we were united: to create a new team culture and give the most passionate nation in the world the team they deserved."

[Cernunnos]

http://ia.rediff.com/cricket/2006/aug/01wright.htm

It's such an irony of fate that this great man who singlehandedly changed the culture of the Indian dressing room, is dismissed as a "cancer", by those who are reaping the benefits of his groundwork. Seeing the pale shadow that Sourav Ganguly has become of his former self, one needs to ask who the real "cancer" is.

[Jai]

Did anyone notice that all the headlines on Rediff about Wright's book has a positive tone while rest of the news websites opted for negative ones like 'Now it's Chappell+Wright against Ganguly'?

[suraj]

http://ia.rediff.com/cricket/2006/aug/01wright.htm

It's such an irony of fate that this great man who singlehandedly changed the culture of the Indian dressing room, is dismissed as a "cancer", by those who are reaping the benefits of his groundwork. Seeing the pale shadow that Sourav Ganguly has become of his former self, one needs to ask who the real "cancer" is.

So who is the real "cancer"?? Some names please

[flute202020]

http://ia.rediff.com/cricket/2006/aug/01wright.htm

It's such an irony of fate that this great man who singlehandedly changed the culture of the Indian dressing room, is dismissed as a "cancer", by those who are reaping the benefits of his groundwork. Seeing the pale shadow that Sourav Ganguly has become of his former self, one needs to ask who the real "cancer" is.

Cernunnos , this has exactly been the problem with SG issue all along. Did you see anyone belittle Sg's contribution on this DG? the point is, SG was essentially a spent force by end of Aus tour and BCCI & selectors by not being proactive about it, essentially killed SG's career. Also, SG could have taken the decision to step aside and prolonged his career. JW, whom you are referring to above also felt that there is strong case for SG's removal as captain when he left. This has nothing to do with how good SG was earlier.

[Jai]

More comments on Wright's book........now from Veeru.


Sehwag rebuffs Wright
 
Tuesday, August 1, 2006 (Bangalore):

Indian vice captain Virender Sehwag on Tuesday disagreed with John Wright's charges of a zonal bias in team selection and said talent was the sole criteria.

"Talented players get picked whether he is from west or north zone," Sehwag said.

"Obviously when you have a north zone selector in the committee, he will make a mention about players who have been performing well at the meeting.

"The player does not get selected because he is from north zone. Ultimately it is the decision of the five selectors," the Delhi batsman said on the final day of the fitness camp.

"If you want more details you speak to John Wright as he had attended all meetings in his five-year stint," he added.

Wright, the former coach, had said in his recently published book Indian Summers, that India's selection system was based on zonal quota. (PTI)

[LosingNow]

" but I began with the basics, suggesting that he get a new watch as it was important the captain was on time."

HA HA HA.. looks like JW needed orientation on Indian Culture 101 - Chapter 1 : Indian Special Time!!

[ramshorns]

" but I began with the basics, suggesting that he get a new watch as it was important the captain was on time."

HA HA HA.. looks like JW needed orientation on Indian Culture 101 - Chapter 1 : Indian Special Time!!

I swear the GOD, I really laughed too when I read that line.  IST is something new perhaps to JW, but I am sure by the end of his stint as the coach he has gotten used to it. 

[prfsr]

Cernunnos , this has exactly been the problem with SG issue all along. Did you see anyone belittle Sg's contribution on this DG?

Yes. Haven't you?
-P

[flute202020]

Cernunnos , this has exactly been the problem with SG issue all along. Did you see anyone belittle Sg's contribution on this DG?

Yes. Haven't you?
-P

nope, I remember people always saying "SG's contribution was indeed great but...". can you name a DG member or recollect a thread?

[LosingNow]

Cernunnos , this has exactly been the problem with SG issue all along. Did you see anyone belittle Sg's contribution on this DG?

Yes. Haven't you?
-P

P:
Most (there may be one or two odd cases) here admire SG for the player he WAS and his contributions to Indian cricket.

I think the break between most peopl and the die-hard SG fans on this DG comes, mostly on his performance after approximately the Australia tour of India..and the soap-opera that ensued and his role/non-role in it....and its reverberations to-date.

LN

[ruchir]

" but I began with the basics, suggesting that he get a new watch as it was important the captain was on time."

HA HA HA.. looks like JW needed orientation on Indian Culture 101 - Chapter 1 : Indian Special Time!!

After returning to NZ, from IND, JW was invited at a party. The party was supposed to start at 12:00pm. JW reached the venue at 6:30pm and saw that people were cleaning the place up. He saw the host and asked what happened to the party? Host said "Mate, you're just about 6.5 hours late". JW realised that he was so enamoured by the concept of IST, after getting IST-101 certificate, that he had forgotten to change the time of his watch after going back. After getting the IST-101 certificate, following things happened to him in NZ:

1. He was .5 hour late to a program where he was being facilitated by NZ Prime Minister.
2. He was 1.5 hours late to a speech he was to give in a school.
3. He was 1 hour late to his kid's soccer game.
4. He was 2 hours late to a movie he was supposed to see with his wife.
5. He was 1.5 hours late for his kid's birthday party.
6. He was .5 hour late for his nex job interview.

Since then, JW has adjusted to NZ standard time.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

this is what actually happened
jw was supposed to get laid, this so called girl called him at 6.30, he reached there at 12 and ended up having the best sex of his life. next day he calls up the girl who goes "what the beep, u didn't turn up yday and my daughter has been gone crazy"

[Libran]

" but I began with the basics, suggesting that he get a new watch as it was important the captain was on time."

HA HA HA.. looks like JW needed orientation on Indian Culture 101 - Chapter 1 : Indian Special Time!!

I swear the GOD, I really laughed too when I read that line.  IST is something new perhaps to JW, but I am sure by the end of his stint as the coach he has gotten used to it. 

I did not find it funny..rather I was happy at the subtlety of the message. whether SG followed it or not is not the issue..but the communication was an absolute  beauty

[Libran]

Cernunnos , this has exactly been the problem with SG issue all along. Did you see anyone belittle Sg's contribution on this DG?

Yes. Haven't you?
-P

nope, I remember people always saying "SG's contribution was indeed great but...". can you name a DG member or recollect a thread?

TYC
Tombaan


Ruchir
LN
CP

[LosingNow]

TYC

TYC
Tombaan


Ruchir
LN
CP

[thinking]
I dont take silly baits  ..but if I dont, this myth will continue. Nah, let it be. Most people know and it does not matter.
[/thinking]

[dhruvdeepak]

TYC

TYC
Tombaan


Ruchir
LN
CP

[thinking]
I dont take silly baits  ..but if I dont, this myth will continue. Nah, let it be. Most people know and it does not matter.
[/thinking]

so is it safe to say you've stopped thinking for the day 

[LosingNow]

so is it safe to say you've stopped thinking for the day 

M'fer!


 

[jaat69]

TYC

TYC
Tombaan


Ruchir
LN
CP

[thinking]
I dont take silly baits  ..but if I dont, this myth will continue. Nah, let it be. Most people know and it does not matter.
[/thinking]

Don't think so hard...your knees might ache!

[vincent]

Why are we damning Wright for no reason?

By Rohit Brijnath, The Hindu

If Indian politicians could have The Satanic Verses banned without reading a word, why wait before calling John Wright a lying, scandal-mongering mercenary. This is fun. Let's just assassinate the quiet Kiwi's character, deface his reputation, accuse him of leaking nuclear secrets to the Americans while we're at it, and then, if we find some free time between knee-jerk responses, maybe we'll read his book Indian Summers and decide if he actually deserved all this vitriol.

You know why Wright wrote that horrible, offensive stuff which most haven't read but will still assure you is horrible and offensive? Because he wants to sell books and make money (people can actually make money writing cricket books in India?) And, the former selectors who made these charges know this — how? Because they are oracles who can read Wright's mind?

Is this rhetoric not as distasteful as the one the selectors are accusing Wright of? It's almost as if they think Wright ensured this particular chapter was leaked to the press. Ah, where would we be without the conspiracy theory?

Or wait, maybe Wright wrote all this because ... . he's umm, well, err, white? I mean, a foreigner, you know an outsider, who doesn't know the culture of Indian cricket (which means what, burying the truth?) and wants to exploit us poor Indians. Which makes you wonder who has the chip on their shoulder, him or us?

Fact is, throughout his reign as Indian coach, Wright showed a sincerity and humility and restraint that was edifying. The man's no buddy of mine, and his monkish vows of silence used to annoy me, but he showed fine judgment and a notable control of ego in ensuring the focus was always on the team not on him. You could get to like a man like that.

Flawed system


Anyway, this alleged sin of John's, what was it? Had he scorned Sourav, made match-fixing claims? Not quite. No, he's written that the Indian selection system is flawed. This is controversial? If there's an Indian journalist who hasn't taken a swing at the selection system, raise a lonely hand, and then explain why you haven't. We can do it, but a coach of the national team, who has seen and suffered it first hand, can't?

Did Wright name selectors? Twice in that chapter. He complimented Sanjay Jagdale, and in another instance pointed out how Pronob Roy was hounded in Bengal for failing to prevent Sourav's axing. Nowhere are there personal attacks, and so why exactly are some selectors being so defensive? Lost in all this is the irony that two selectors apparently asked Wright to write a book.

We can learn from Wright, we can disagree with him, instead we belittle him? But that's how it is these days. Recently a former cricketer was offered a lucrative job as an expert by a TV company, but only if he agreed to criticise Ganguly. This is the level of debate we've arrived at. Where the possible wisdom of a man's book is irrelevant, what matters is what scandal we can sniff out.

Issues have become immaterial in Indian cricket, ideas are extraneous, reason is out. Personal attacks are in.

A few weeks ago, Sanjay Manjrekar, one of cricket's most captivating columnists, wrote a stimulating piece on Sachin Tendulkar and his ageing body and how it may be affecting his thought processes. It was a compelling twist to a worn subject, one certainly worth informed debate.

Manjrekar did not appear to be criticising Tendulkar, merely attempting to comprehend a great batsman caught in some final struggle. But these days the merit or legitimacy of an argument is secondary to the controversy that can be whipped up around it. So Manjrekar was seen as bashing Tendulkar, as suggesting he was afraid to fail, as insinuating he had faked injuries. It got to the point where I began to wonder if I'd read a different article.

Debating the value of what Manjrekar said is evidently tedious; guessing why Manjrekar said it, is clearly more fun. Perhaps he doesn't like Tendulkar, perhaps he holds a grudge? Now every time a comment is passed, the motive of the commenter is being called into question. It is all quite unseemly.

Former players leapt to Tendulkar's defence (we presume they'd read the entire article and were not reacting to excerpts out of context, which is an old and dismaying tactic), and there was an underlying suggestion that Tendulkar is some cricketing pope who is beyond questioning.

This writer has long admired Tendulkar, and has often defended him from the bleatings of assorted bloggers, but certainly he is not above scrutiny. That Tendulkar later rebuked Manjrekar was unfortunate, for if anything cricketers should be advocating honest, reasoned discussion rather than playing into the hands of the hysterical in the media.

[dhruvdeepak]

hey vincent -
nice to see you posting again.
if you havent already, please vote at the cricketvoice awards!
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?board=19.0

[/end inappropriate publicity for own thread]

[vincent]

hey vincent -
nice to see you posting again.
if you havent already, please vote at the cricketvoice awards!
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?board=19.0

[/end inappropriate publicity for own thread]

OK.I will today,though my experience on this DG is not yet extensive.

[dhruvdeepak]

hey vincent -
nice to see you posting again.
if you havent already, please vote at the cricketvoice awards!
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?board=19.0

[/end inappropriate publicity for own thread]

OK.I will today,though my experience on this DG is not yet extensive.

btw you are nominated in one of the categories

[achutank]

From the article posted above:

We can learn from Wright, we can disagree with him, instead we belittle him? But that's how it is these days. Recently a former cricketer was offered a lucrative job as an expert by a TV company, but only if he agreed to criticise Ganguly. This is the level of debate we've arrived at. Where the possible wisdom of a man's book is irrelevant, what matters is what scandal we can sniff out.


there's a point i made in the NDTV thread on the same lines. that anything is news and everything can be made controversial in the media today. even if you see our DG as a quasi media vehicle, we try to see what we can do to add spice.

Q to all: are we turning into a race of exhibitionists? case in point (or is it point in case) the recent spurt of mobile videos of normal people doing it and then forwarding to friends.

[Cernunnos]

http://ia.rediff.com/cricket/2006/aug/01wright.htm

It's such an irony of fate that this great man who singlehandedly changed the culture of the Indian dressing room, is dismissed as a "cancer", by those who are reaping the benefits of his groundwork. Seeing the pale shadow that Sourav Ganguly has become of his former self, one needs to ask who the real "cancer" is.

Cernunnos , this has exactly been the problem with SG issue all along. Did you see anyone belittle Sg's contribution on this DG? the point is, SG was essentially a spent force by end of Aus tour and BCCI & selectors by not being proactive about it, essentially killed SG's career. Also, SG could have taken the decision to step aside and prolonged his career. JW, whom you are referring to above also felt that there is strong case for SG's removal as captain when he left. This has nothing to do with how good SG was earlier.

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters. Let me put it bluntly, it was nothing but a power struggle between the now ruling body and Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith. These Mir Jafars had no qualms in stabbing Indian cricket in the back, as long as it served their petty ends.

The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

[kban1]

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

Excellent - applause.

People tend to overlook the need of the media and the need of certain establishment's old timers to see their favorite son annointed as skipper for disparate reasons.

The media for selling papers and the establishment members such as RSD (just one example) because the incumbent was too much of a rebel to suit the refined tastes from the bygone era of the Raj, not to mention the fact that SG was the perfect pawn to get to Dalmiya.

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters.

And to add to that, this was a series where every single batsman of note (save VS) was woefully out of form, their weaknesses exploited fully by a well oiled bowling unit bent on revenge for earlier losses.

But of course it was the captain who had to bear the blame because he had already been annointed as the fall guy -- just a matter of time before the coup could be executed. of course a captain with his reputation in tatters based from a vilification campaign of the basest order is an infinitely easier target to chop at.

[achutank]

http://ia.rediff.com/cricket/2006/aug/01wright.htm

It's such an irony of fate that this great man who singlehandedly changed the culture of the Indian dressing room, is dismissed as a "cancer", by those who are reaping the benefits of his groundwork. Seeing the pale shadow that Sourav Ganguly has become of his former self, one needs to ask who the real "cancer" is.

Cernunnos , this has exactly been the problem with SG issue all along. Did you see anyone belittle Sg's contribution on this DG? the point is, SG was essentially a spent force by end of Aus tour and BCCI & selectors by not being proactive about it, essentially killed SG's career. Also, SG could have taken the decision to step aside and prolonged his career. JW, whom you are referring to above also felt that there is strong case for SG's removal as captain when he left. This has nothing to do with how good SG was earlier.

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters. Let me put it bluntly, it was nothing but a power struggle between the now ruling body and Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith. These Mir Jafars had no qualms in stabbing Indian cricket in the back, as long as it served their petty ends.

The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

brilliant and applause!

[arjun]

Yes, applause.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

height of hypocrisy
sehwag comments on the wright issue giving his views according to which there is no bias taken into account during player selection.
last time he opininated on a player he was given a warning by the bcci, what the hell happened to their moral police now? isn't this bias on their part?
 

[123of]

guys read between the line of what jw has written, you will get the reall meaning .

he is smart, he is not going to come out and start laying it all in front of you.

people who know what was going on all the years he was here can make out what he is actually saying when makes his complementary statements with a laugh.

and sg fans we watched the matches we dont need to be told by the media that sg lost it long time back but its all right you guys should enjoy your dreams of the great captain sg and his average.

enjoy.

[arjun]

Yeah I read between the lines, and found that Wright was actually saying RD is a nincompoop!

[flute202020]

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

Excellent - applause.

People tend to overlook the need of the media and the need of certain establishment's old timers to see their favorite son annointed as skipper for disparate reasons.

The media for selling papers and the establishment members such as RSD (just one example) because the incumbent was too much of a rebel to suit the refined tastes from the bygone era of the Raj, not to mention the fact that SG was the perfect pawn to get to Dalmiya.

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters.

And to add to that, this was a series where every single batsman of note (save VS) was woefully out of form, their weaknesses exploited fully by a well oiled bowling unit bent on revenge for earlier losses.

But of course it was the captain who had to bear the blame because he had already been annointed as the fall guy -- just a matter of time before the coup could be executed. of course a captain with his reputation in tatters based from a vilification campaign of the basest order is an infinitely easier target to chop at.

yep, it is all some vicious media created , deep conspiracy, probably CIA & ISI too are involved. SG was going great guns, only for the media to step in and spread a smokescreen of bad form. People who think SG is out form are all fools who got conned into believing that SG is out of form.
gimme a break.

SG's stats and performance have been discussed at much length on this DG. To think it is all media created and people on this DG are all somehow conned into thinking that he is out of form is just stretching it too far. Below is SG's avg. since 2000. Of the 16 series(non minnows only) from 200, he contributed effectively only in 5 series. Any other player would have been dropped long long back. A combination of hype as a main player and Dalmiya's support ensured his long run. If not, SG was a great captain and a great ODI player, but only a average test player.

Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 2000/01 [Series]
               Ind     3   106  48   17.66   0   0   1  1/44   65.00  0   4  0
India in Sri Lanka, 2001 [Series]
                SL     3   166  98*  33.20   0   1   2  2/69   67.00  0   0  0
India in South Africa, 2001/02 [Series]
                SA     2    90  42   30.00   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0
England in India, 2001/02 [Series]
               Ind     3    68  47   22.66   0   0   0   -       -    0   1  0
India in West Indies, 2001/02 [Series]
                WI     5   322  75*  53.66   0   2   0   -       -    0   3  0
India in England, 2002 [Series]
                 -     4   351 128   58.50   1   3   0   -       -    0   2  0
West Indies in India, 2002/03 [Series]
               Ind     3    49  29   12.25   0   0   -   -       -    -   9  0
India in New Zealand, 2002/03 [Series]
                NZ     2    29  17    7.25   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0
New Zealand in India, 2003/04 [Series]
                 -     1   125 100* 125.00   1   0   -   -       -    -   0  0
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in Australia, 2003/04 [Series]
                 -     4   284 144   47.33   1   1   0   -       -    0   1  0
India in Pakistan, 2003/04 [Series]
               Ind     1    77  77   77.00   0   1   0   -       -    0   1  0
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 2004/05 [Series]
               Aus     2    59  45   19.66   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0
South Africa in India, 2004/05 [Series]
               Ind     2    97  57   48.50   0   1   2  1/14   29.50  0   0  0
Pakistan in India, 2004/05 [Series]
                 -     3    48  21    9.60   0   0   0   -       -    0   3  0
Sri Lanka in India, 2005/06 [Series]
               Ind     2    84  40   28.00   0   0   0   -       -    0   1  0
India in Pakistan, 2005/06 [Series]
               Pak     2    71  37   35.50   0   0   1  1/68   91.00  0   1  0

[ramshorns]

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

Excellent - applause.

People tend to overlook the need of the media and the need of certain establishment's old timers to see their favorite son annointed as skipper for disparate reasons.

The media for selling papers and the establishment members such as RSD (just one example) because the incumbent was too much of a rebel to suit the refined tastes from the bygone era of the Raj, not to mention the fact that SG was the perfect pawn to get to Dalmiya.

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters.

And to add to that, this was a series where every single batsman of note (save VS) was woefully out of form, their weaknesses exploited fully by a well oiled bowling unit bent on revenge for earlier losses.

But of course it was the captain who had to bear the blame because he had already been annointed as the fall guy -- just a matter of time before the coup could be executed. of course a captain with his reputation in tatters based from a vilification campaign of the basest order is an infinitely easier target to chop at.

yep, it is all some vicious media created , deep conspiracy, probably CIA & ISI too are involved. SG was going great guns, only for the media to step in and spread a smokescreen of bad form. People who think SG is out form are all fools who got conned into believing that SG is out of form.
gimme a break.

SG's stats and performance have been discussed at much length on this DG. To think it is all media created and people on this DG are all somehow conned into thinking that he is out of form is just stretching it too far. Below is SG's avg. since 2000. Of the 16 series(non minnows only) from 200, he contributed effectively only in 5 series. Any other player would have been dropped long long back. A combination of hype as a main player and Dalmiya's support ensured his long run. If not, SG was a great captain and a great ODI player, but only a average test player.

Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 2000/01 [Series]
               Ind     3   106  48   17.66   0   0   1  1/44   65.00  0   4  0
India in Sri Lanka, 2001 [Series]
                SL     3   166  98*  33.20   0   1   2  2/69   67.00  0   0  0
India in South Africa, 2001/02 [Series]
                SA     2    90  42   30.00   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0
England in India, 2001/02 [Series]
               Ind     3    68  47   22.66   0   0   0   -       -    0   1  0
India in West Indies, 2001/02 [Series]
                WI     5   322  75*  53.66   0   2   0   -       -    0   3  0
India in England, 2002 [Series]
                 -     4   351 128   58.50   1   3   0   -       -    0   2  0
West Indies in India, 2002/03 [Series]
               Ind     3    49  29   12.25   0   0   -   -       -    -   9  0
India in New Zealand, 2002/03 [Series]
                NZ     2    29  17    7.25   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0
New Zealand in India, 2003/04 [Series]
                 -     1   125 100* 125.00   1   0   -   -       -    -   0  0
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in Australia, 2003/04 [Series]
                 -     4   284 144   47.33   1   1   0   -       -    0   1  0
India in Pakistan, 2003/04 [Series]
               Ind     1    77  77   77.00   0   1   0   -       -    0   1  0
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 2004/05 [Series]
               Aus     2    59  45   19.66   0   0   0   -       -    0   0  0
South Africa in India, 2004/05 [Series]
               Ind     2    97  57   48.50   0   1   2  1/14   29.50  0   0  0
Pakistan in India, 2004/05 [Series]
                 -     3    48  21    9.60   0   0   0   -       -    0   3  0
Sri Lanka in India, 2005/06 [Series]
               Ind     2    84  40   28.00   0   0   0   -       -    0   1  0
India in Pakistan, 2005/06 [Series]
               Pak     2    71  37   35.50   0   0   1  1/68   91.00  0   1  0

Good analysis Flute, applause on this one.  If anything over the last 2 years SG the player was mediocre.  Instead of all the excuses and conspiracy theories floating around on SG's exclusion, How about scoring some runs now and shoving it in the face of the selectors.   That is not happening yet and the way SG has his priorites set off late sadly that may never happen. 

All these disection of stats by some to show how great an average he had here or there to me is meaningless.  He is washed up as a player as simple as that if his recent performances in counties is any indication.

[ruchir]

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters. Let me put it bluntly, it was nothing but a power struggle between the now ruling body and Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith. These Mir Jafars had no qualms in stabbing Indian cricket in the back, as long as it served their petty ends.

The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Excellent rhetoric.... good for getting lot of applauses, but nothing more than that. Your post is good in bashing but it does so without any content. I wish you had provided some content in backing your allegations. It would have made better reading.


The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Exactly how is the new Admin taking the Indian cricket down the drain? BCCI is and will be earning manyfold more money that what it was under JD and RSM. New Admin has increased salaries of Umpires. It is taking concrete steps towards getting a web site, which previous Admin never thought about. How exactly are you coming to a conclusion that the new Admin is taking Indian cricket down the drain?? Sure, any Admin has problems and issues. This one has too, just like the previous one had. Show me something that this Admin has done, that previous Admin did not do? Actually, I would like to know your definition of - going down the drain. What exactly do you mean by that?? Please explain.


Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith.

Oh yeah. Definetly a great man. The same great man who removed SG from captaincy, right? Was that the zenith of Indian cricket in your eyes? Was it the zenith when RSM was the elections because JD casted 2 votes himself and a person from opposition was not allowed to vote? What a great man!!! Under JD, BCCI was spending about 3-4% of its earnings on improving the game's infrastructure. Most of it was being spent on meetings in 5-star hotels, bills of honorary members, court cases etc. Remaining was deposited in bank. That surely was the Zenith of Indian cricket. Before every series there would be court cases on BCCI for TV rights. Was there any court case on BCCI when Pawar's team sold TV rights for the last home series?? Sure Pawar is a politician. He made a damn career in politics!!! But what is JD? Are you saying JD never ever played politics while serving indian cricket? If yes, you are naive. If no, JD and Pawar are just the same. No difference. Pawar is as good or bad as JD is. Sure JD earned lot of money ofr Indian cricket. But the way BCCI is going, Pawar's team will earn 10 times of what JD earned.


In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force?

Okay, time to deal with SG. It is my opinion that SG's downward slide began after 2003 WC. SG has played 50 ODIs since WC 2003 till Sep 2005. Let me first compare SG to other Indian players in their ODIs played during the same time duration:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Dravid      51     40.95    2      18    1884    40.20
Sehwag    56     29.44    2       8    1649    32.45
Yuvraj      53     32.81    4       6    1575    35.26
Sachin     34     44.46    4       7     1423    44.20
Kaif         46     40.51    1      10    1418    33.00
Ganguly   49     30.50    0       10    1403    40.65
---------------------------------------------------

1. SG has the lowest Avg. among all, since WC 2003 and has scored least number of runs.
2. SRT and Kaif have played less number of ODIs than SG na d have yet scored more runs at a better Avg.
3. SG is the only one who has a huge, 10 run, drop from his career Avg. VS and YS too have a drop, but it is only of 2.5-3 runs.
4. Every player, except SG, has scored at least 1 century.
5. Kaif and Yuvraj usually bat below SG. Yet they have performed better than him.
6. VS had 1 run less Avg. than SG. But we all know that VS is in the team to provide explosive opening. And he has 2 centuries and 8 fifties to show for that.

Now, let me break SG's Avg. over last 50 ODIs into batch to 10:

Last 50 ODIs - 30.50
Last 40 ODIs - 26.07
Last 30 ODIs - 29.07
Last 20 ODIs - 27.05
Last 10 ODIs - 19.77

A progressive downfall in Avg. in his last 50 ODIs. There is a slight improvement between last 40 and 30 ODIs, but other than that, a progressive downfall which becomes acute in last 10 ODIs.


Now, come to Tests. If SRT is playing, our test batting will look like: VS, WJ, RD, SRT, VVS, YS (if playing 4 bowlers), MSD, AK, HS, IP, MP -- SS/AA/RPS (if playing 5 bowlerS)

In this scenario, SG has competition with VVS and YS. I will not be ridiculous and say replace WJ with SG as opener. Okay, since Jan-1-2005 let us compare SG, VVSL, YS:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     17     46.14   2       4      646      42.70
Yuvraj        9     45.00   1       2      360      33.20
Ganguly    12     26.66   1         0       320      40.78
---------------------------------------------------

Again, Ganguly has lowest number of runs, lowest Avg. Everyone has improved on their career Avg. except Ganguly. There is 14 run drop in his Avg. During this time, IND played PAK, ZIM and SL. All kind of teams (Good, Avg, minnow)

Let us see comparitive Test figures from Jan-1-2004. 2 years is a good indication of form:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     33     38.63   3       6     1159      42.70
Ganguly    21     34.66   1         4      728       40.78
Yuvraj       17     42.46   2       3      637      33.20
---------------------------------------------------

In 1 year, from 2004 to 2005, SG suffered a 8 run drop in Avg. Over 2 years, YS still has better Avg. than SG. To me, it looks pretty clear that SG would not have been selected over VVS or YS in Tests.

[dextrous]

No difference. Pawar is as good or bad as JD is. Sure JD earned lot of money ofr Indian cricket. But the way BCCI is going, Pawar's team will earn 10 times of what JD earned.

And they wouldn't be earning this much, hadn't JD made cricket a commercial force to reckon with. At least give him that much credit. Even cricinfo does!

[flute202020]

No difference. Pawar is as good or bad as JD is. Sure JD earned lot of money ofr Indian cricket. But the way BCCI is going, Pawar's team will earn 10 times of what JD earned.

And they wouldn't be earning this much, hadn't JD made cricket a commercial force to reckon with. At least give him that much credit. Even cricinfo does!

Dex, why are  you going around asking for "atleast give him this " plz give him atleast that"?   

sorry, I know what you mean, but the way your comment came out, it made me laugh

[jaat69]

No difference. Pawar is as good or bad as JD is. Sure JD earned lot of money ofr Indian cricket. But the way BCCI is going, Pawar's team will earn 10 times of what JD earned.

And they wouldn't be earning this much, hadn't JD made cricket a commercial force to reckon with. At least give him that much credit. Even cricinfo does!

Wait.....people are yet to see, what Pawar can do!

[suraj]

In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force? This is exactly the problem in the SG issue, some people's sheer lethargy to think for themselves, while happily repeating lies fed to them by the media like Crockinfo and the English language newspapers (who hire experts based on their ability to bash Ganguly).

India had just won a series in Pakistan against Pakistan. There was no reason for Ganguly to step down. The rot started with India losing to Aus thanks to the VCA and the traitor curator, and the subsequent hounding of Ganguly for "chickening out", reducing his reputation to tatters. Let me put it bluntly, it was nothing but a power struggle between the now ruling body and Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith. These Mir Jafars had no qualms in stabbing Indian cricket in the back, as long as it served their petty ends.

The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Excellent rhetoric.... good for getting lot of applauses, but nothing more than that. Your post is good in bashing but it does so without any content. I wish you had provided some content in backing your allegations. It would have made better reading.


The real cancers are the current ruling body, who will take Indian cricket down the drain.

Exactly how is the new Admin taking the Indian cricket down the drain? BCCI is and will be earning manyfold more money that what it was under JD and RSM. New Admin has increased salaries of Umpires. It is taking concrete steps towards getting a web site, which previous Admin never thought about. How exactly are you coming to a conclusion that the new Admin is taking Indian cricket down the drain?? Sure, any Admin has problems and issues. This one has too, just like the previous one had. Show me something that this Admin has done, that previous Admin did not do? Actually, I would like to know your definition of - going down the drain. What exactly do you mean by that?? Please explain.


Dalmiya, a great man under whom Indian cricket reached it's zenith.

Oh yeah. Definetly a great man. The same great man who removed SG from captaincy, right? Was that the zenith of Indian cricket in your eyes? Was it the zenith when RSM was the elections because JD casted 2 votes himself and a person from opposition was not allowed to vote? What a great man!!! Under JD, BCCI was spending about 3-4% of its earnings on improving the game's infrastructure. Most of it was being spent on meetings in 5-star hotels, bills of honorary members, court cases etc. Remaining was deposited in bank. That surely was the Zenith of Indian cricket. Before every series there would be court cases on BCCI for TV rights. Was there any court case on BCCI when Pawar's team sold TV rights for the last home series?? Sure Pawar is a politician. He made a damn career in politics!!! But what is JD? Are you saying JD never ever played politics while serving indian cricket? If yes, you are naive. If no, JD and Pawar are just the same. No difference. Pawar is as good or bad as JD is. Sure JD earned lot of money ofr Indian cricket. But the way BCCI is going, Pawar's team will earn 10 times of what JD earned.


In the 3 series prior to the Aus series SG averaged 125, 47 & 77. And then he suddenly becomes a spent force?

Okay, time to deal with SG. It is my opinion that SG's downward slide began after 2003 WC. SG has played 50 ODIs since WC 2003 till Sep 2005. Let me first compare SG to other Indian players in their ODIs played during the same time duration:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Dravid      51     40.95    2      18    1884    40.20
Sehwag    56     29.44    2       8    1649    32.45
Yuvraj      53     32.81    4       6    1575    35.26
Sachin     34     44.46    4       7     1423    44.20
Kaif         46     40.51    1      10    1418    33.00
Ganguly   49     30.50    0       10    1403    40.65
---------------------------------------------------

1. SG has the lowest Avg. among all, since WC 2003 and has scored least number of runs.
2. SRT and Kaif have played less number of ODIs than SG na d have yet scored more runs at a better Avg.
3. SG is the only one who has a huge, 10 run, drop from his career Avg. VS and YS too have a drop, but it is only of 2.5-3 runs.
4. Every player, except SG, has scored at least 1 century.
5. Kaif and Yuvraj usually bat below SG. Yet they have performed better than him.
6. VS had 1 run less Avg. than SG. But we all know that VS is in the team to provide explosive opening. And he has 2 centuries and 8 fifties to show for that.

Now, let me break SG's Avg. over last 50 ODIs into batch to 10:

Last 50 ODIs - 30.50
Last 40 ODIs - 26.07
Last 30 ODIs - 29.07
Last 20 ODIs - 27.05
Last 10 ODIs - 19.77

A progressive downfall in Avg. in his last 50 ODIs. There is a slight improvement between last 40 and 30 ODIs, but other than that, a progressive downfall which becomes acute in last 10 ODIs.


Now, come to Tests. If SRT is playing, our test batting will look like: VS, WJ, RD, SRT, VVS, YS (if playing 4 bowlers), MSD, AK, HS, IP, MP -- SS/AA/RPS (if playing 5 bowlerS)

In this scenario, SG has competition with VVS and YS. I will not be ridiculous and say replace WJ with SG as opener. Okay, since Jan-1-2005 let us compare SG, VVSL, YS:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     17     46.14   2       4      646      42.70
Yuvraj        9     45.00   1       2      360      33.20
Ganguly    12     26.66   1         0       320      40.78
---------------------------------------------------

Again, Ganguly has lowest number of runs, lowest Avg. Everyone has improved on their career Avg. except Ganguly. There is 14 run drop in his Avg. During this time, IND played PAK, ZIM and SL. All kind of teams (Good, Avg, minnow)

Let us see comparitive Test figures from Jan-1-2004. 2 years is a good indication of form:

Player      Inng   Avg.   100s   50s   Runs   Car. Avg.
---------------------------------------------------
Laxman     33     38.63   3       6     1159      42.70
Ganguly    21     34.66   1         4      728       40.78
Yuvraj       17     42.46   2       3      637      33.20
---------------------------------------------------

In 1 year, from 2004 to 2005, SG suffered a 8 run drop in Avg. Over 2 years, YS still has better Avg. than SG. To me, it looks pretty clear that SG would not have been selected over VVS or YS in Tests.

Good post ruchir!

[jaat69]

I am looking forward to the commercialisation of BCCI under Pawar/ Modi/Bindra...et al.
Hope they manage to remain civil at the end of it all!

[ruchir]

And they wouldn't be earning this much, hadn't JD made cricket a commercial force to reckon with. At least give him that much credit. Even cricinfo does!

Sure I did. This is what I wrote:

Sure JD earned lot of money for Indian cricket.