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[prfsr]

I am sorry, but I find the main reasoning completely unacceptable -- "men are horndogs so we must bar women to remain focussed on the pilgrimage"!!! Is this the prevalent explanation? So all the temples that allow women in various phases of the reproductive cycle are basically impure and tainted because the ovulating women send out sexy smells that distract the men?

I would be ashamed if this were true of me -- I can honestly say that I interact professionally with a lot of young women and I have never had any idea who is ovulating, menstruating, is a nymphomaniac, has zero sexual energy and the like. I am sure I would not be able to discern this even if I tried.

-P

[pieterSAN]

i agree that there is a cycle when the women ovulate etc. to extend that to them turning into lascivious lolitas during that phase and cannot help seduce every male around them is a tad overstretching it, don't you think? i don't know about this residual energy and cleansng etc. yeah, the body chucks the muck out, but again, it is a physiological process.

The point is that the presence of both men and women in the temple is probably going to significantly reduce benefits of being there. Just to be clear, the issue is not limited to acting on sexual impulse, it is curbing sexual impulse. I am sorry if it is not clear, this is not my forte - just something I am interested in.

okay - here's what i don't understand in this thread of argument. the men, who go to sabarimala undergo this "vrutha" for 41 days prior to their trip and are supposed to be celibates during that phase. but obviously, they aren't isolated from women during this period and it is their devotion/self-control that prevents them from engaging in sex. and the same men cannot control themselves during the hours they are on the trek if they see women who are largely strangers to them(unless their wives/gfs are travelling)? something doesn't add up here.

Lack of sexual activity does not mean there is no sexual energy. A sexual thought would reflect such energy. Such thoughts are not easily controlled no matter who you are with.

[sudzz]

Mock Iam addressing this directly to you because I feel that while you are discarding a lot of the practices it seems like you are driven by rationality rather than by just a need to be belligerent.

Iam a hindu and proud of it, a brahmin but dont know much about how it makes a difference in my life.

The reason I feel so strongly about a lot of things is because of my personal experience...till I started performing shrardh for my parents I used to rebel at everything and wanted to question the need for each and every aspect of my life...But ever since I started performing shrardh I have been asking questions of the "vadyaar" who is educated and who is younger to me by three/four years and he has been explaining things to me and many a things are getting clarified.

I'am nowhere close to knowing what all of it really means but many of our practices have a basis in reality-for example I have asked him about the reason for whipping people with neem leaves he said he will try and find that out (incidentally thats a practice not so prevelant now or even in the past across communities only the most backward communities used to do it).

I fully agree with you that we need to really question practices that were relevant for a time and place and therefore have meaning today but till when we dont really know if something is truly wrong I dont think its our place as non practicing hindu's to really say this or that is not relevant.

[MockTurtle]

Mock Iam addressing this directly to you because I feel that while you are discarding a lot of the practices it seems like you are driven by rationality rather than by just a need to be belligerent.

Iam a hindu and proud of it, a brahmin but dont know much about how it makes a difference in my life.

The reason I feel so strongly about a lot of things is because of my personal experience...till I started performing shrardh for my parents I used to rebel at everything and wanted to question the need for each and every aspect of my life...But ever since I started performing shrardh I have been asking questions of the "vadyaar" who is educated and who is younger to me by three/four years and he has been explaining things to me and many a things are getting clarified.

I'am nowhere close to knowing what all of it really means but many of our practices have a basis in reality-for example I have asked him about the reason for whipping people with neem leaves he said he will try and find that out (incidentally thats a practice not so prevelant now or even in the past across communities only the most backward communities used to do it).

I fully agree with you that we need to really question practices that were relevant for a time and place and therefore have meaning today but till when we dont really know if something is truly wrong I dont think its our place as non practicing hindu's to really say this or that is not relevant.

suddz, thanks for your response. guess we are in agreement. i do not blindly oppose everything and in fact, see a lot of value is maintaining traditions, after-all, they identify us. but at the same time, anything that seems obviously wrong should be questioned and eradicated. i grew up in a brahmin environment and have been exposed to a lot of the biases exhibited by my family towards "non-brahmins" and this has built a deep-rooted hatred inside me for many of the practices that in my eyes, violate human dignity. my grandfather used to grumble if my christian friends from school visited me home or if i wanted to invite a "non-brahmin" friend over on some religious days.

but i do not mock people who want to continue the religious/cultural aspects as long as dignity and respect for everyone is maintained in that. even though i don't understand what is being said, i love listening to the rhythmic chanting of the rudram and find it rather calming.

anyway, this is my last post on this thread. guess we have beaten the topic to death and there isn't really much more to say.

[sgusa]

Mock, this is so true. I argued so much with my dad's mom who is very religious and then now here i am in the US, a rational person who questions everything, listening to Vishu Sahasranamum!

[MockTurtle]

Mock, this is so true. I argued so much with my dad's mom who is very religious and then now here i am in the US, a rational person who questions everything, listening to Vishu Sahasranamum!

guess this is a different topic and so i will respond - well, i listen to the chants not coz i am religious but coz they give me a sense of nostalgia and i like listening to them. i grew up on these and it is comforting to have the same sounds around me, esp. when i am not in a very happy state of mind.

[pieterSAN]

Mock, this is so true. I argued so much with my dad's mom who is very religious and then now here i am in the US, a rational person who questions everything, listening to Vishu Sahasranamum!

guess this is a different topic and so i will respond - well, i listen to the chants not coz i am religious but coz they give me a sense of nostalgia and i like listening to them. i grew up on these and it is comforting to have the same sounds around me, esp. when i am not in a very happy state of mind.

When I was a child, each day started of with these hymns(?) played on tape. I never got the words right but I remember that the first on was definitely Kausalya. It's a bittersweet memory....there is something comforting about it but I feel distressed that I am so far from it and so different.

[vincent]

I think we should continue to understand and question the validity of any religious custom or "rule".Again,I will be safe if I give example from Christianity: Until the reformation initiated by Pope John 23rd,for Catholics it was forbidden to eat meat on Fridays.Think about this: In rural India (or any other poor country) the people considered themselves lucky if they could eat meat once a week.And the ones who could afford,did not do it everyday anyway preferring fish over meat..So what is the point behind this rule/custom which lasted 2000 years? There must have been a reason somewhere..but it did not make sense for most of the people outside Europe.So,the rule had been abolished.But some people still follow it out of habit and personal choice.But as long as one does not force it on others,who cares?

[sgusa]

Mock, this is so true. I argued so much with my dad's mom who is very religious and then now here i am in the US, a rational person who questions everything, listening to Vishu Sahasranamum!

guess this is a different topic and so i will respond - well, i listen to the chants not coz i am religious but coz they give me a sense of nostalgia and i like listening to them. i grew up on these and it is comforting to have the same sounds around me, esp. when i am not in a very happy state of mind.

Whe I was a child, each day started of with these hymns(?) played on tape. I never got the words right but I remember that the first on was definitely Kausalya. It's a bitersweet memory....there is something comforting about it but I feel distressed that I am so far from it and so different.

kausalya supraja ramapurva sandiya ......

[MockTurtle]

Mock, this is so true. I argued so much with my dad's mom who is very religious and then now here i am in the US, a rational person who questions everything, listening to Vishu Sahasranamum!

guess this is a different topic and so i will respond - well, i listen to the chants not coz i am religious but coz they give me a sense of nostalgia and i like listening to them. i grew up on these and it is comforting to have the same sounds around me, esp. when i am not in a very happy state of mind.

Whe I was a child, each day started of with these hymns(?) played on tape. I never got the words right but I remember that the first on was definitely Kausalya. It's a bitersweet memory....there is something comforting about it but I feel distressed that I am so far from it and so different.

ah, the suprabatham. well, it will always be a part of you. i too have radically changed and evolved(hello, 123of!) into a different being but at times, i like to take a trip down the memory lane and reminisce and of course, nostalgia is such a romantic journey filling one with a strange sort of yearning for the past!

[pieterSAN]

Mock, this is so true. I argued so much with my dad's mom who is very religious and then now here i am in the US, a rational person who questions everything, listening to Vishu Sahasranamum!

guess this is a different topic and so i will respond - well, i listen to the chants not coz i am religious but coz they give me a sense of nostalgia and i like listening to them. i grew up on these and it is comforting to have the same sounds around me, esp. when i am not in a very happy state of mind.

When I was a child, each day started of with these hymns(?) played on tape. I never got the words right but I remember that the first on was definitely Kausalya. It's a bitersweet memory....there is something comforting about it but I feel distressed that I am so far from it and so different.

kausalya supraja ramapurva sandiya ......

Yeah!!.... I am going to ask my sister to get the tape.

[pieterSAN]

ah, the suprabatham. well, it will always be a part of you. i too have radically changed and evolved(hello, 123of!) into a different being but at times, i like to take a trip down the memory lane and reminisce and of course, nostalgia is such a romantic journey and fills one with a strange sort of yearning for the past!

Very true...thanks.

[sudzz]

You bet, I live in a land where if you get in pictures of gods they are confiscated at the airport. Thanks to the net I have been able to down load VS and listening to it gives me a lot of solace especially when I'am in a really low phase.

[LosingNow]

ah, the suprabatham. well, it will always be a part of you. i too have radically changed and evolved(hello, 123of!) into a different being but at times, i like to take a trip down the memory lane and reminisce and of course, nostalgia is such a romantic journey filling one with a strange sort of yearning for the past!

I am assuming you do not have kids yet. I think there will be another radical change, once that happens and they grow up. Typically (and I am not saying this will necessarily happen to you), you make that turn towards tradition again, when you are raising a family..after all, traditions are our roots and if you do not impart the right values/rituals (which is what our tradition encapsulates) in your kids, they will be rootless(and will, in worst case, seek roots elsewhere - not a pleasant thought for most of us).
It was fun following this thread..Mock, SG, Pieter, Prfsr. Good discussion.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

i wanted to do a research on hormone levels during prayers, but my mentor rejected the proposal. personally, i tend to think of religion as something the earlyman "invented" knowing the manner in which human beings fought among themselves
oh i think read somewhere that during prayer you epinephrine levels increase

[prfsr]

i wanted to do a research on hormone levels during prayers, but my mentor rejected the proposal. personally, i tend to think of religion as something the earlyman "invented" knowing the manner in which human beings fought among themselves
oh i think read somewhere that during prayer you epinephrine levels increase

Interesting idea -- I think it was more to "pacify" the nature gods that they were afraid of. I am not an expert, but would not the notion of a supreme entity come first and then religion be defined as a set of rules to interact with the supreme power? Also is it not true that "prayer" means different things for different people? So I would not be surprised if the levels vary all over the place. Even the variation in a particular person would depend on what definition of prayer the person followed.

-P

PS: Many Indian classical music artistes think of their riyaaz as a sort of prayer. Singing a bhajan is more explicit perhaps. I wonder if these fall within the usual definitions of prayer. Is every form of meditation prayer?

[sgusa]

psfr, that is what i figured out about religion. Early man looks up sees this bright ball of fire, and he knows that when it is around he feels warm and the beasts dont attack as much. So he figures it must be powerful and so decides it is a god. Ditto with those frightening lightning and thunder and so on.

We though people fell sick because they displeased some god or were cursed. Now with microscopes we can see the agents of disease and we learnt about bacteria, and that lead us to postulate about viruses. So slowly as we evolve to understand things, we can move them from the realms of mystery and God to the realm of science.

Ofcourse there will always be something left to explain , and the fact that we can think about thinking in the first place, and so on . So there will always be an all powerful entity that explains certain things. And even if we can explain away everything, we still need that warm feeling of praying to a powerful entity and the feel good factor of faith.

[sgusa]

ah, the suprabatham. well, it will always be a part of you. i too have radically changed and evolved(hello, 123of!) into a different being but at times, i like to take a trip down the memory lane and reminisce and of course, nostalgia is such a romantic journey filling one with a strange sort of yearning for the past!

I am assuming you do not have kids yet. I think there will be another radical change, once that happens and they grow up. Typically (and I am not saying this will necessarily happen to you), you make that turn towards tradition again, when you are raising a family..after all, traditions are our roots and if you do not impart the right values/rituals (which is what our tradition encapsulates) in your kids, they will be rootless(and will, in worst case, seek roots elsewhere - not a pleasant thought for most of us).
It was fun following this thread..Mock, SG, Pieter, Prfsr. Good discussion.

Thank you, Thaank you verymuch! (a la the King! )

[fineleg]

Mock, this is so true. I argued so much with my dad's mom who is very religious and then now here i am in the US, a rational person who questions everything, listening to Vishu Sahasranamum!

guess this is a different topic and so i will respond - well, i listen to the chants not coz i am religious but coz they give me a sense of nostalgia and i like listening to them. i grew up on these and it is comforting to have the same sounds around me, esp. when i am not in a very happy state of mind.

When I was a child, each day started of with these hymns(?) played on tape. I never got the words right but I remember that the first on was definitely Kausalya. It's a bittersweet memory....there is something comforting about it but I feel distressed that I am so far from it and so different.

Good discussion overall. And what Jiet says is very true - nostalgia is comforting, but even I get the bittersweet feeling..."there is something comforting about it but I feel distressed that I am so far from it and so different"....

I think quite a few things in life are like that sorta bittersweet...
Except if it is well made chocolate ice cream ( i like pista, vanilla and other flavors too!)
or, a Thumping Indian WC win

[sudzz]

ah, the suprabatham. well, it will always be a part of you. i too have radically changed and evolved(hello, 123of!) into a different being but at times, i like to take a trip down the memory lane and reminisce and of course, nostalgia is such a romantic journey filling one with a strange sort of yearning for the past!

I am assuming you do not have kids yet. I think there will be another radical change, once that happens and they grow up. Typically (and I am not saying this will necessarily happen to you), you make that turn towards tradition again, when you are raising a family..after all, traditions are our roots and if you do not impart the right values/rituals (which is what our tradition encapsulates) in your kids, they will be rootless(and will, in worst case, seek roots elsewhere - not a pleasant thought for most of us).
It was fun following this thread..Mock, SG, Pieter, Prfsr. Good discussion.

Abe saale-mere post's achhe nahi they kya?  

But on a more serious note I know what you mean-I have kids and there are certain things that were a part of my upbringing that Iam trying to impart to them but when the atmosphere around you is different it gets difficult to be consistent. 

[LosingNow]

Abe saale-mere post's achhe nahi they kya?  

Of course, you too.

It is funny that a couple of friends and colleagues (of Indian origin), who have atheistic/agnostic leanings (as some of you here are showing - and I am not being judgemental here, I think this exploration is part of navigating through life's journey), have spouses who are religious and these guys (now) actually encourage their kids to follow the rites & rituals (weekly mandir trips, attending Vishnu Sahsranam learning classes, conducting regular poojas at home specially on key festivals etc) very religiously.

BTW, I am not sure if you have seen CONTACT with Jodi Foster - it had an interesting take on faith vs reason.

If you have not, see it.

If you dont want to, here is the wiki entry (warning : may have spoilers)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_%28film%29#.22Contact.22_and_religion

I tend to agree with Joss .."that people can have experiences that make them hold beliefs even if they do not have objectively verifiable evidence to support such beliefs."..which is faith!

[sgusa]

Abe saale-mere post's achhe nahi they kya?  

Of course, you too.

It is funny that a couple of friends and colleagues (of Indian origin), who have atheistic/agnostic leanings (as some of you here are showing - and I am not being judgemental here, I think this exploration is part of navigating through life's journey), have spouses who are religious and these guys (now) actually encourage their kids to follow the rites & rituals (weekly mandir trips, attending Vishnu Sahsranam learning classes, conducting regular poojas at home specially on key festivals etc) very religiously.

BTW, I am not sure if you have seen CONTACT with Jodi Foster - it had an interesting take on faith vs reason.

If you have not, see it.

If you dont want to, here is the wiki entry (warning : may have spoilers)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_%28film%29#.22Contact.22_and_religion

I tend to agree with Joss .."that people can have experiences that make them hold beliefs even if they do not have objectively verifiable evidence to support such beliefs."..which is faith!

I read the book long before i saw the movie. Amazing stuff.

[sudzz]

LN I know what you mean-I do have such friends who have encouraged their children to learn VS etc and even send them to vedic teachers etc.

I feel the reason for this is that most people who decide they are aetheistic or agnostic basically decide at one of two levels

1. Where they have had no exposure or grounding in religion of any sort at home and therefore dont know nor care for these things

2. People like us who on account of exposure, knowledge etc start questioning things and arrive at a point where a lot of it does not make sense to our rational analytical self and therefore we find it difficult to digest most of what goes on.

But the thing about letting children getting grounded with these traditions is that this (tradition) is the only anchor we have in our lives because we have all chosen to get out of our familiar settings and set up base elsewhere and therefore do not have roots (most likely will never have) and this is one connection (however tenuous) that we have with what we have left behind.

[LosingNow]

2. People like us who on account of exposure, knowledge etc start questioning things and arrive at a point where a lot of it does not make sense to our rational analytical self and therefore we find it difficult to digest most of what goes on.

I have been through this phase ..but have too many life experiences (as Joss explains above) that has turned me to hold beliefs.

As far as kids are concerned, I think (irrespective of what you believe) it is IMO a key parental duty to teach them tradition, rites, rituals, morals, values, beliefs ..in a balanced manner - so that they understand why they are doing what they are doing...so that when they grow up, they can also go through this exploration and make an informed choice for themselves.

BTW, in this aspect, I really admire the Jewish community in the United States. They have done a great job of maintaining their traditions across generations.

[pieterSAN]

LN, Sudzz,

As an a single male (never married) my understanding of this topic is limited. But it seems to me that the decision to instill rites, rituals and traditions in your children despite being agnostic/atheistic makes sense. The fact remains that some sound of grounding or foundation is necessary to be able to develop a sense of identity in society. It really does not matter what it is...but converts or undecideds have no other choice but to teach them what they know best, which is what they were taught as kids.

[sudzz]

LN, Sudzz,

As an a single male (never married) my understanding of this topic is limited. But it seems to me that the decision to instill rites, rituals and traditions in your children despite being agnostic/atheistic makes sense. The fact remains that some sound of grounding or foundation is necessary to be able to develop a sense of identity in society. It really does not matter what it is...but converts or undecideds have no other choice but to teach them what they know best, which is what they were taught as kids.

Pieter, whatever made you think that Iam aetheistic...Iam not...but I completely agree with what you are saying this is the only thing we can impart as a part of our culture/tradition since grand parents et all are occassional events that happen and its not good enough to compensate for what we have experienced.

[pieterSAN]

LN, Sudzz,

As an a single male (never married) my understanding of this topic is limited. But it seems to me that the decision to instill rites, rituals and traditions in your children despite being agnostic/atheistic makes sense. The fact remains that some sound of grounding or foundation is necessary to be able to develop a sense of identity in society. It really does not matter what it is...but converts or undecideds have no other choice but to teach them what they know best, which is what they were taught as kids.

Pieter, whatever made you think that Iam aetheistic...Iam not...but I completely agree with what you are saying this is the only thing we can impart as a part of our culture/tradition since grand parents et all are occassional events that happen and its not good enough to compensate for what we have experienced.

Ooops...I was using the general "when you" as in "when one". Did not mean to imply that you are atheistic, rather, if someone is atheistic they are faced these choices.

[prfsr]

Ok, serious question to practicing Hindus, how do you explain to your daughters that they cannot take part in many pujas, and that they cannot participate in sradh ceremony for their parents even if they have no brothers.

I realize that the second part is on a topic not frequently discussed. But the question is serious.

-P

[LosingNow]

Ok, serious question to practicing Hindus, how do you explain to your daughters that they cannot take part in many pujas, and that they cannot participate in sradh ceremony for their parents even if they have no brothers.

I realize that the second part is on a topic not frequently discussed. But the question is serious.

-P

My daughters participate in all poojas that we have conducted as a family, to date. Do you have anything specific in mind.
On our shraddh ceremony, since both of us are still alive...I assume they will figure it out, when we die!

[sudzz]

Ok, serious question to practicing Hindus, how do you explain to your daughters that they cannot take part in many pujas, and that they cannot participate in sradh ceremony for their parents even if they have no brothers.

I realize that the second part is on a topic not frequently discussed. But the question is serious.

-P

No actually girls can participate in most functions but they cannot do havan/homam because thats considered a man's prerogative (dont ask me why because i dont know)

Incidentally a homam or havan by a married person cannot be performed if his wife is not physically present there and if a man is not married his sister has to give the fire from the hearth inside the house.

The thing is that till a woman gets married she is not deemed fit enough to perform kirya's but a married woman is allowed to be a part of all kirya and apra kiryas (the ones performed for dead).

To answer your question on women not being allowed to perform Srardh-well if the woman is married then her husband has to perform the srardh else till she gets married or if she is widowed, she needs to perform the srardh in sankramam style without the fire-she needs to make a offering of rice, dal and raw bananas to a brahmin and request him to say the required mantras.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

Ok, serious question to practicing Hindus, how do you explain to your daughters that they cannot take part in many pujas, and that they cannot participate in sradh ceremony for their parents even if they have no brothers.

I realize that the second part is on a topic not frequently discussed. But the question is serious.

-P

No actually girls can participate in most functions but they cannot do havan/homam because thats considered a man's prerogative (dont ask me why because i dont know)

Incidentally a homam or havan by a married person cannot be performed if his wife is not physically present there and if a man is not married his sister has to give the fire from the hearth inside the house.

The thing is that till a woman gets married she is not deemed fit enough to perform kirya's but a married woman is allowed to be a part of all kirya and apra kiryas (the ones performed for dead).

To answer your question on women not being allowed to perform Srardh-well if the woman is married then her husband has to perform the srardh else till she gets married or if she is widowed, she needs to perform the srardh in sankramam style without the fire-she needs to make a offering of rice, dal and raw bananas to a brahmin and request him to say the required mantras.

sudz
ur knowledge of hindu rituals amazes me, applause

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

since we are on the topic of difficulties that expatriate indians face in imparing the traditional values among their kids i thought that we had to discuss the swaminaryan sect. every saturday they organize something fun for teens, dandia raas, lectures in english on religion. and they also have western food without eggs and of course meat.

and this might sound like prejudice but i seriously think that in general south indians retain their values more than north indians not including punjabis. gujjus are the worst and i know that for a fact because i am gujju myself

[prfsr]

Ok, serious question to practicing Hindus, how do you explain to your daughters that they cannot take part in many pujas, and that they cannot participate in sradh ceremony for their parents even if they have no brothers.

I realize that the second part is on a topic not frequently discussed. But the question is serious.

-P

No actually girls can participate in most functions but they cannot do havan/homam because thats considered a man's prerogative (dont ask me why because i dont know)

Incidentally a homam or havan by a married person cannot be performed if his wife is not physically present there and if a man is not married his sister has to give the fire from the hearth inside the house.

The thing is that till a woman gets married she is not deemed fit enough to perform kirya's but a married woman is allowed to be a part of all kirya and apra kiryas (the ones performed for dead).

To answer your question on women not being allowed to perform Srardh-well if the woman is married then her husband has to perform the srardh else till she gets married or if she is widowed, she needs to perform the srardh in sankramam style without the fire-she needs to make a offering of rice, dal and raw bananas to a brahmin and request him to say the required mantras.

Maybe this is regional, because I am pretty sure women do not take part in many pujas. Another thing they cannot do is "mukhagni" -- the cremation act. I have never heard of women doing sradh in any form in my region. I guess I should mention also that there are pujas that women do (e.g. for their husbands) that men cannot participate in.

-P

PS: 2 smites after my last post in this thread!! We have RSS/VHP agents here 

[LosingNow]

I guess I should mention also that there are pujas that women do (e.g. for their husbands) that men cannot participate in.

Yep. We have something called Gangor ..which is a women's thingy (of course, done for the long life of their men!) and Teej, Karva chauth are some of the more popular N Indian events that Men do not participate in.

I thingk, given that I am a father of 2 daughters, I will let them make all these decisions when they grow up. The elder one participates in and enjoys all the rituals and poojas. Who knows, in the next 20 years, it will be common for women to cremate, do shradhs etc..all it takes is for one person to start it, right..and who on earth has the right to tell my daughter, when I die, that she cant cremate me, if she wants to.

PS: 2 smites after my last post in this thread!! We have RSS/VHP agents here 

Smites - Oh, I am sure there are a 100 theories on this DG on when you get a smite/applause and when you dont. I do not think it necessarily has a link to your recent posts. I do not think it has to do with RSS/VHP agents or even left-wing/commie/liberal agents. It really is unexplainable.

I think the best thing is to ignore these applauds/smites..just speak your mind based on your assessment of facts...and let applauds/smites take their own course.

[dhruvdeepak]

I think the best thing is to ignore these applauds/smites..just speak your mind based on your assessment of facts...and let applauds/smites take their own course.

i.e. focus on the process - results will come 

[LosingNow]

I think the best thing is to ignore these applauds/smites..just speak your mind based on your assessment of facts...and let applauds/smites take their own course.

i.e. focus on the process - results will come 

"Karmanye va Adhikaraste' Ma Phaleshu Kadhachana"

[sudzz]

Ok, serious question to practicing Hindus, how do you explain to your daughters that they cannot take part in many pujas, and that they cannot participate in sradh ceremony for their parents even if they have no brothers.

I realize that the second part is on a topic not frequently discussed. But the question is serious.

-P

No actually girls can participate in most functions but they cannot do havan/homam because thats considered a man's prerogative (dont ask me why because i dont know)

Incidentally a homam or havan by a married person cannot be performed if his wife is not physically present there and if a man is not married his sister has to give the fire from the hearth inside the house.

The thing is that till a woman gets married she is not deemed fit enough to perform kirya's but a married woman is allowed to be a part of all kirya and apra kiryas (the ones performed for dead).

To answer your question on women not being allowed to perform Srardh-well if the woman is married then her husband has to perform the srardh else till she gets married or if she is widowed, she needs to perform the srardh in sankramam style without the fire-she needs to make a offering of rice, dal and raw bananas to a brahmin and request him to say the required mantras.

Maybe this is regional, because I am pretty sure women do not take part in many pujas. Another thing they cannot do is "mukhagni" -- the cremation act. I have never heard of women doing sradh in any form in my region. I guess I should mention also that there are pujas that women do (e.g. for their husbands) that men cannot participate in.

-P

PS: 2 smites after my last post in this thread!! We have RSS/VHP agents here 

Again Mukhaagni is fire and therefore the woman is not allowed I think the logic must have been (this is pure guess work) that women are so intensly powerful that letting them play with fire would have meant that they can burn the world down.....

I dont know why but as I was typing that I realised that in our mythologys any time things burned or were burnt it was god in the form of a woman (Bhasmasura was killed by Vishnu in the form of Mohini I think, During the Manthan for Amrit again Vishnu as Mohini burned down the asura's, When Paravati committed Sati after Shiva's insult by Himavan her father the land under where her body parts fell also burned. So maybe there is a logic to it...

But regarding the next question of Sradhh I think there is no such thing about being allowed for a woman , its more to do with the fact that women were discouraged to perform such acts-there have been women priestesses' in the past not too many of them are glorified thats all.

[LosingNow]

Again Mukhaagni is fire and therefore the woman is not allowed I think the logic must have been (this is pure guess work) that women are so intensly powerful that letting them play with fire would have meant that they can burn the world down.....

I was laughing ..thinking this was a joke and then you sprung this..

I dont know why but as I was typing that I realised that in our mythologys any time things burned or were burnt it was god in the form of a woman (Bhasmasura was killed by Vishnu in the form of Mohini I think, During the Manthan for Amrit again Vishnu as Mohini burned down the asura's, When Paravati committed Sati after Shiva's insult by Himavan her father the land under where her body parts fell also burned. So maybe there is a logic to it...

Wow!

[sgusa]

Again Mukhaagni is fire and therefore the woman is not allowed I think the logic must have been (this is pure guess work) that women are so intensly powerful that letting them play with fire would have meant that they can burn the world down.....

I was laughing ..thinking this was a joke and then you sprung this..

I dont know why but as I was typing that I realised that in our mythologys any time things burned or were burnt it was god in the form of a woman (Bhasmasura was killed by Vishnu in the form of Mohini I think, During the Manthan for Amrit again Vishnu as Mohini burned down the asura's, When Paravati committed Sati after Shiva's insult by Himavan her father the land under where her body parts fell also burned. So maybe there is a logic to it...

Wow!

In the version i heard from my mom & the version i read in ACK (amar chitra katha ), vishnu in the form of Mohini actually tricks the Asuras, not burn them.

The devas and asuras cooperate to churn the sea to get the amrit (nectar). To churn they use Mount meru as the churn stick. A huge snake ( i forgot the name) is the rope to operate the churn. The devas trick the asuras into holding the snake's head side. During churning the snake is in agony and it spits 'kala' - a poison capable of incinirating all life. Shiva saves the world by swallowing hte poison, but Parvati grabs his neck to prvent the poison for going into his system ( hence the neel kandt (blue neck) ). Once the amrut comes out ( laksmi, indra's elephant gajendra etc come out first ), the asuras all line up for their share. But the devas dont want to give it to them since that would make the asuras also invincible and godlike. So vishnu in the form of mohini comes there and tricks the asuras and convinces them to let the devas get the first round. But one of the asuras notice that the amrit is fast dwindling in amount and he changes form and stand in the deva's line. Mohini who is doling the stuff out gives himthe amrit, but quickly realises that he is an asur, and so whips out the chakra and cuts his head off . But since the head had tasted the amrit it is granted eternal life and roams as 'Rahu'. It took the body of a snake. The body of the asur took the head of that snake and became 'Kethu'.

[MockTurtle]

Again Mukhaagni is fire and therefore the woman is not allowed I think the logic must have been (this is pure guess work) that women are so intensly powerful that letting them play with fire would have meant that they can burn the world down.....

I was laughing ..thinking this was a joke and then you sprung this..

I dont know why but as I was typing that I realised that in our mythologys any time things burned or were burnt it was god in the form of a woman (Bhasmasura was killed by Vishnu in the form of Mohini I think, During the Manthan for Amrit again Vishnu as Mohini burned down the asura's, When Paravati committed Sati after Shiva's insult by Himavan her father the land under where her body parts fell also burned. So maybe there is a logic to it...

Wow!

In the version i heard from my mom & the version i read in ACK (amar chitra katha ), vishnu in the form of Mohini actually tricks the Asuras, not burn them.

The devas and asuras cooperate to churn the sea to get the amrit (nectar). To churn they use Mount meru as the churn stick. A huge snake ( i forgot the name) is the rope to operate the churn. The devas trick the asuras into holding the snake's head side. During churning the snake is in agony and it spits 'kala' - a poison capable of incinirating all life. Shiva saves the world by swallowing hte poison, but Parvati grabs his neck to prvent the poison for going into his system ( hence the neel kandt (blue neck) ). Once the amrut comes out ( laksmi, indra's elephant gajendra etc come out first ), the asuras all line up for their share. But the devas dont want to give it to them since that would make the asuras also invincible and godlike. So vishnu in the form of mohini comes there and tricks the asuras and convinces them to let the devas get the first round. But one of the asuras notice that the amrit is fast dwindling in amount and he changes form and stand in the deva's line. Mohini who is doling the stuff out gives himthe amrit, but quickly realises that he is an asur, and so whips out the chakra and cuts his head off . But since the head had tasted the amrit it is granted eternal life and roams as 'Rahu'. It took the body of a snake. The body of the asur took the head of that snake and became 'Kethu'.

vasuki was the snake that was coiled around the mount mandara to churn the ambrosia from the sea.