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worma

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2006, 06:13:04 PM »
Prem's update after end of match:
http://sightscreen.rediffiland.com//scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1148677473

Now for the brickbats – the team has had a good long run; during this time, you’ve had one section of fans waiting for a stumble, for defeat (a strange way, it has always seemed to me, to follow a sport) just so as to be able to say ‘I told you so!’.

Didn’t happen against Sri Lanka, then the number two team in the world; not against Pakistan; not against South Africa; not against England – but finally the moment is here to bring out the knives.

Presumably, too, the fans following the fortunes of the team, as opposed to personalities, will have reason for heartburn. The team had just gotten everyone used to consistently good performances – and then, in this series, produced a consistently bad run.

=======================================================================

I really hope
"you’ve had one section of fans waiting for a stumble, for defeat (a strange way, it has always seemed to me, to follow a sport) just so as to be able to say ‘I told you so!’. " don't exist in reality - it may but i hope less of them the better -

All of us have heartburn. Let us all try to analyze together hopefully.

I'm sorry to say that a lot of such *fans* exists..too many of them....even on this forum.

Here's what I wrote in the ODI season preview long long time back http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=2134.msg30303#msg30303

But major sections of India, today, are a divided lot - accept it or not. The lines of division were once along the lines of Chappell vs Ganguly, then it moved to 'the system' vs Ganguly, then finally it stands such that there are divisions along supporters of the current team/process/system (and not necessarily Chappell, I must strictly opine here) vs the 'rest' where 'rest' equals those who think he/they/it would (and should) fail, and therefore not only waiting for it, but even 'willing' it to happen, sometimes at the cost of Indian failure. So while one half waits for the ODI effect to seep over to the tests (for after all, it's still cricket, and how different can it be?), the others wait for 'the bubble to burst' as someone, whom I chance to know very closely, once said.
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worma

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2006, 06:19:58 PM »
Why is Pathan not an all-rounder? Because he has had a bad run in the West Indies?  ;D ;D




Jiet,
Becos he is yet to prove himself in a reasonably consistent manner especially in AWAY series (as i mentioned when I say AWAY series - i specifically mean non-subcontinental series and non-minnows) - IP is a failure as a batsman in WI. Let us see in South Africa if by that time he develops more technique and experience in batting.
Lets wait for the tests to finish, yet :)

And btw...an allrounder can be limited to certain conditions as well. heck when even a specialist batsman can be a failure in certain conditions, why not an allrounder?

Sure...this would mean he's not a very good allrounder (which he may yet become with time) but an allrounder nonetheless.

Btw..even mighty Freddie didnt 'prove himself' in the ODIs in India. Although i still think he's a very very good allrounder, and potential to be great.
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2006, 06:34:36 PM »
worma:

Quote
I'm sorry to say that a lot of such *fans* exists..too many of them....even on this forum.

have to disagree with you and prem and some others who keep propounding this POV.

I find this an extremely condescending and supercilious POV to be handed down that fans want India to fail so that their favorite player can be in the team.

For one neither of the proponents of this POV have a clue into the minds of fans who they allege to feel this way.

Very similar to the Republican tactics in the US regarding the Iraq war -- either you are with us or you are against us and the latter makes all of you unpatriotic. The Republicans never considered subtleties or nuances about alternative strategies about attack, occupation, even the need for war.

And very true to the same principle, the ones who accuse others of this mindset of India losing do not care about nuance or subtlety on the other side either --for the most part. That fact that a sizeable section of fans feel that this is the wrong direction indian cricket is heading towards is ignored. And the fact that the team building exercise with an over emphasis on youth at the cost of experience is a strategy riddled with more holes than a block of swiss cheese is also swept under the rug.

Could it be that some fans actually see our current strategy as being flawed and one that might lead to failure as manifest against the WI ?

And if these fans had the guts to stand up and say that losses are around the corner --not because that was their wish but thats what logic told them about future happenings -- they have to be branded as anti patriotic in an amazing media spin of Gobbelesian proportions!!

Any dissenting view under this scenario "has" to emanate from a so called "personality cult" of worshipping one player when in reality there could be various shades involved in a person's thinking. there can be no other explanation, can there ? Or is it because this is the most effective way of silencing dissenters -- you are unpatriotic!!!

And the irony here is that in accusing others of this bias, some of the accusers themselves revel in their own personality cult  -- whether it be blind devotion to coach, current captain or a pathological dislike for the former captain.

This scorched earth, take no prisoner type of argument --either "with us or against us" or "dissent and be deemed unpatriotic" is as ridiculous as it is insulting to the group that is being accused.

And its probbaly not  a coincidence that this argument comes from people extremeley comfortable with the current power structure --for a host of myriad reasons.

Something is not right in the land of Oz!! or is that India ?
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worma

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2006, 06:38:53 PM »
worma:

Quote
I'm sorry to say that a lot of such *fans* exists..too many of them....even on this forum.

have to disagree with you and prem and some others who keep propounding this POV.

I find this an extremely condescending and supercilious POV to be handed down that fans want India to fail so that their favorite player can be in the team.

For one neither of the proponents of this POV have a clue into the minds of fans who they allege to feel this way.

Very similar to the Republican tactics in the US regarding the Iraq war -- either you are with us or you are against us and the latter makes all of you unpatriotic. The Republicans never considered subtleties or nuances about alternative strategies about attack, occupation, even the need for war.

And very true to the same principle, the ones who accuse others of this mindset of India losing do not care about nuance or subtlety on the other side either --for the most part. That fact that a sizeable section of fans feel that this is the wrong direction indian cricket is heading towards is ignored. And the fact that the team building exercise with an over emphasis on youth at the cost of experience is a strategy riddled with more holes than a block of swiss cheese is also swept under the rug.

Could it be that some fans actually see our current strategy as being flawed and one that might lead to failure as manifest against the WI ?

And if these fans had the guts to stand up and say that losses are around the corner --not because that was their wish but thats what logic told them about future happenings -- they have to be branded as anti patriotic in an amazing media spin of Gobbelesian proportions!!

Any dissenting view under this scenario "has" to emanate from a so called "personality cult" of worshipping one player when in reality there could be various shades involved in a person's thinking. there can be no other explanation, can there ? Or is it because this is the most effective way of silencing dissenters -- you are unpatriotic!!!

And the irony here is that in accusing others of this bias, some of the accusers themselves revel in their own personality cult  -- whether it be blind devotion to coach, current captain or a pathological dislike for the former captain.

This scorched earth, take no prisoner type of argument --either "with us or against us" or "dissent and be deemed unpatriotic" is as ridiculous as it is insulting to the group that is being accused.

And its probbaly not  a coincidence that this argument comes from people extremeley comfortable with the current power structure --for a host of myriad reasons.

Something is not right in the land of Oz!! or is that India ?
Without going into too many details...shall I just say that I know some of these *fans* at close quarters...so its not something based on reading people's opinion on this DG or SigthScreen etc.

And extending the experience that I gain from close quarters (yes that includes gleeful acknowledgement of Indian defeats!) and extrapolating it to other people (whom obviously none of us, neither u nor me, know personally but just read their cricketing views here) I find too many similarities to not be forced to form the opinion that I do.

That ofcourse doesnt mean that there isn't a way of valid criticism....ofcourse there is, and I hope that I am one of its practitioners too.
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2006, 06:43:27 PM »
worma:

Quote
Without going into too many details...shall I just say that I know some of these *fans* at close quarters...so its not something based on reading people's opinion on this DG or SigthScreen etc.

And extending the experience that I gain from close quarters (yes that includes gleeful acknowledgement of Indian defeats!) and extrapolating it to other people (whom obviously none of us, neither u nor me, know personally but just read their cricketing views here) I find too many similarities to not be forced to form the opinion that I do.

That ofcourse doesnt mean that there isn't a way of valid criticism....ofcourse there is, and I hope that I am one of its practitioners too.

If you have encountered that personally, I have nothing to argue about on that count.

But using this sample to generalize across the vast section of the dissenters and then paint them all with this demeaning brush is something I have witnessed far too often and thats where my criticism is leveled at.
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worma

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2006, 06:48:20 PM »
worma:

Quote
Without going into too many details...shall I just say that I know some of these *fans* at close quarters...so its not something based on reading people's opinion on this DG or SigthScreen etc.

And extending the experience that I gain from close quarters (yes that includes gleeful acknowledgement of Indian defeats!) and extrapolating it to other people (whom obviously none of us, neither u nor me, know personally but just read their cricketing views here) I find too many similarities to not be forced to form the opinion that I do.

That ofcourse doesnt mean that there isn't a way of valid criticism....ofcourse there is, and I hope that I am one of its practitioners too.

If you have encountered that personally, I have nothing to argue about on that count.

But using this sample to generalize across the vast section of the dissenters and then paint them all with this demeaning brush is something I have witnessed far too often and thats where my criticism is leveled at.
As I said....since my personal encounters tell me that such people do exist. And reading some of the cricketing opinions here gives me an eerie sense of similarity of thoughts....what else can I deduce from that? Obviously, there's only so much that one can know about people here or in any forum with these limited cricketing opinions that people post here.

But in any case, I would still say that I have stronger reasons for thinking that such opinions do exist that you have of thinking they don't, no?
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worma

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2006, 06:57:54 PM »
Btw..atleast I hate that patriotism argument personally. Am not a terrible fan of GC or the way things are handled in this administration....there are too many collisions for my liking....but I would like to believe that that is contructive argument....nothing to do with the actual *processes* (apologies for using that word ;) ) and results that this team is showing on the field.

I hope you would have got that indication from my posts..e.g. that season review itself (esp the test one)....something similar to the Harsha points of criticism.

I don't get too much into personality debates....not now atleast...therefore never discussed GC as a person (or his short and/ir long term future as I see it) but that doesn't mean I am a fan. Nor does it mean I would try to pull down the team beyond what it has actually fallen. *That* is what, IMO, the other kind of *fans* do.
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2006, 06:58:40 PM »
I think I conceded (based on your personal experience) that there are people who feel that way -- obviously since you have encountered them, and I have no reason to disbelieve that.

But based on my personal experience, I feel that this is hardly a microcosm of the general dissenting populace out there.

This theory came about a long time ago (even before India had lost any matches) -- put forth by PP on his blog as a preemptive strike against any criticism that this managemenet might encounter in the future as a result of possible future failures  -- and has taken root over the months whereby a small cross section of views bearing resonance to the central point of the theory is quickly generalized to the rest and used as a stick to beat them with.

For all my admiration of Prem's writing, there are some things I can never agree with --and this is one of those. The use of this theory and its constant repetition to drill into the minds of people a suspicion which is unfounded at best (when taken in context of the majority, not the outliers) is what I term as "propa*a".
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2006, 06:59:54 PM »
Quote
Btw..atleast I hate that patriotism argument personally. Am not a terrible fan of GC or the way things are handled in this administration....there are too many collisions for my liking....but I would like to believe that that is contructive argument....nothing to do with the actual *processes* (apologies for using that word  ) and results that this team is showing on the field.

I hope you would have got that indication from my posts..e.g. that season review itself (esp the test one)....something similar to the Harsha points of criticism.

I don't get too much into personality debates....not now atleast...therefore never discussed GC as a person (or his short and/ir long term future as I see it) but that doesn't mean I am a fan. Nor does it mean I would try to pull down the team beyond what it has actually fallen. *That* is what, IMO, the other kind of *fans* do.

No worries on that count mate --I think I know you long enough not to think along those lines  ;D ;D

Applause for a healthy exchange of viewpoints!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 07:01:58 PM by kban1 »
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prfsr

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2006, 07:59:06 PM »
Just read this carefully again:
"Now for the brickbats – the team has had a good long run; during this time, you’ve had one section of fans waiting for a stumble, for defeat (a strange way, it has always seemed to me, to follow a sport) just so as to be able to say ‘I told you so!’.

Didn’t happen against Sri Lanka, then the number two team in the world; not against Pakistan; not against South Africa; not against England – but finally the moment is here to bring out the knives.

Presumably, too, the fans following the fortunes of the team, as opposed to personalities, will have reason for heartburn. The team had just gotten everyone used to consistently good performances – and then, in this series, produced a consistently bad run."

Like a good politician, he never says but suggests very subtly that this is bad. So when is the right time to criticize the team? When the team wins, it makes no sense to criticize them. When they lose, we should have patience and the "knives" should not be out. What differentiates criticism from the so-called knives?

This is not a criticism of PP personally or even professionally. I quote him because he puts it down better than some others in the media or this DG.

-P
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worma

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2006, 08:32:09 PM »
Just read this carefully again:
"Now for the brickbats – the team has had a good long run; during this time, you’ve had one section of fans waiting for a stumble, for defeat (a strange way, it has always seemed to me, to follow a sport) just so as to be able to say ‘I told you so!’.

Didn’t happen against Sri Lanka, then the number two team in the world; not against Pakistan; not against South Africa; not against England – but finally the moment is here to bring out the knives.

Presumably, too, the fans following the fortunes of the team, as opposed to personalities, will have reason for heartburn. The team had just gotten everyone used to consistently good performances – and then, in this series, produced a consistently bad run."

Like a good politician, he never says but suggests very subtly that this is bad. So when is the right time to criticize the team? When the team wins, it makes no sense to criticize them. When they lose, we should have patience and the "knives" should not be out. What differentiates criticism from the so-called knives?

This is not a criticism of PP personally or even professionally. I quote him because he puts it down better than some others in the media or this DG.

-P

When do you criticize?...well...right now, when else. Indeed you criticize now....we are playing bad. Read carefully....PP dosn't suggest you dont criticize the team's performance....his last sentence is a positive one ""Presumably, too, the fans following the fortunes of the team, as opposed to personalities, will have reason for heartburn. The team had just gotten everyone used to consistently good performances – and then, in this series, produced a consistently bad run.""

This is directed at well-intentioned fans..
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prfsr

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2006, 08:45:10 PM »
Who are the well-intentioned fans? What does one do to become one? Does hoping that the team succeeds in the next match make one well-intentioned? What if someone believes that this team is on the wrong track?

In other words, when and where does one criticize the process? I find no sense in criticizing results. We all agree with RD that one small mistake by YS put us here -- in the sense that if it was not made, we would be 2-2. Surely that does not invalidate the long-term strategy of this team?
Also, injuries and/or lack of form can negate the best of long-term plans.
Finally, if we celebrate when the team is winning and criticize when the team is losing, we become "fair weather fans".

Should we have no say on the long-term and short-term "vision" that is being implemented?

-P
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inoc

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2006, 12:55:51 AM »
kban
sorry to bring up this post of yours after such along time.

"inoc:
Not really.

Its true that MSD should have been selected earlier and cracks in the system prevented him from being selected earlier.

But the person who actually recommended him happened to be our former captain - Ganguly. Saw him on TV -- batting in a domestic match, called up a reporter and asked him to watch the game while commenting "I have to get this guy in my team".

I read this in an article that the said journalist wrote (the article was posted in the DG too) --but darn if I remember his name or the link to the article."

i was not aware of this. thanks for letting me know.
in my post i was referring to MSD not as a lucky find (wrong choice of words on my part) but a fortunate turn of events whereby we have the luxury of having a wicketkeeper/batsman who in theory could fulfil the role of a batsman alone. if we did not have him then we would have to satisfy ourselves with lesser mortals with the bat.
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rajesh

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2006, 08:40:05 AM »
kban
  Are u sure, MSD was a ganguly find ...
  I have heard from some that actually MSD is a Srinath find ... (he was the first one to take notice of MSD's abilities and asked team managememet and selectors to look into this guy)
  I have even herad srinath say this (not in as many words) in TV commentary ...  I am Not sure who actually found MSD ...
Nothing against u, but I am against this practise of giving all credits to ganguly for finding talent,nurturing them etc even when he has not done for certain cases ...

I feel we want to amke ganguly an Imran khan ... Am i rite??
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2006, 05:31:00 PM »
Rajesh:

I was of the opinion that MSD was a system find --belated but still a system find until I read the article by the journalist who put it explicitly in his column that Ganguly asked him to look at MSD and said I have to get this guy in the team.

If you scroll along this thread and see my original post, you will see me refer to it along with my apologies for not remembering offhand the name of the journalist or the link to the story, which I had posted on this DG.

You will also see dextrous confirming that info. So based on the journalist's personal recommendation, it does appear MSD was a SG find.
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ramshorns

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2006, 05:34:06 PM »
Rajesh:

I was of the opinion that MSD was a system find --belated but still a system find until I read the article by the journalist who put it explicitly in his column that Ganguly asked him to look at MSD and said I have to get this guy in the team.

If you scroll along this thread and see my original post, you will see me refer to it along with my apologies for not remembering offhand the name of the journalist or the link to the story, which I had posted on this DG.

You will also see dextrous confirming that info. So based on the journalist's personal recommendation, it does appear MSD was a SG find.
But then let me ask you a follow up question.  What the hell SG was doing clinging on Parthiv Patel with all the muffed up chances by PP.  I used to just curse at the way PP was keeping.  And add to that RD keeping in ODI's.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 05:36:16 PM by ramshorns »
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2006, 05:43:37 PM »
Well, PP was given chances to prove himself -- if you recall his keeping went downhill as his batting improved whereas the Indian thinktank led by SG/JW wanted both to improve.

Wrt your question, I can only assume that MSD was a later find  --post PP.

As far as RD keeping in ODI's, it was changed only after MSD was introduced.

And for everyone who always harps on RD keeping in ODI's, ever noticed how that helped RD the batsman perform better ?

I would venture to guess that the performance improvement was a factor of RD's increasing maturity in the OD format plus the benefit of getting your eye set in by watching the ball in close quarters (applicable when he kept wickets first --India batting second).
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ramshorns

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2006, 05:59:39 PM »
Well, PP was given chances to prove himself -- if you recall his keeping went downhill as his batting improved whereas the Indian thinktank led by SG/JW wanted both to improve.

Wrt your question, I can only assume that MSD was a later find  --post PP.

As far as RD keeping in ODI's, it was changed only after MSD was introduced.

And for everyone who always harps on RD keeping in ODI's, ever noticed how that helped RD the batsman perform better ?

I would venture to guess that the performance improvement was a factor of RD's increasing maturity in the OD format plus the benefit of getting your eye set in by watching the ball in close quarters (applicable when he kept wickets first --India batting second).
I always thought it was one of the follies of SG captaincy.  I did not know what he saw in PP.  Even after all those chances he is now the 3rd in the depth chart.  Also I always felt SG protected RD by letting him keep to let RD keep his place.  Remember all those 13 finals we lost.  RD's glove work sure cost us some. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 06:10:35 PM by ramshorns »
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2006, 06:22:48 PM »
Rams:

PP was a chance that did not pay off. And yes, persisting with him for as long as we did was a mistake. We kept hoping for improvement which did not come about --we should have sent him to domestics to work on his game much earlier.
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2006, 07:08:56 PM »
rajesh, ramshorns:

here is the article I was referring to: relevant section in bold

***************************************************************************
Source: Cricinfo
Link: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/cricinfomagazine/content/story/236016.html


February 2006: Cover Story

The heart of the matter

Rahul Bhattacharya reflects on the most fascinating Indian cricketer of our time
 

At some stage, hard to say when, Sourav Ganguly no longer remained a cricketer and turned into a folk hero and a folk villain. Averages and the rest came into it but with Ganguly things became a matter of convictions of the soul. Anything he did or did not do could provoke an outcry. Everything that was done to him or not done to him could provoke an outcry. Ganguly issues took the form of movements. In many ways he is the cricketer-phenomenon in India's modern pop culture.

A year of sustained chaos, encompassing several riots, numerous u-turns and countless epitaphs, has now led to a predicament of superb absurdity. In a recent column the satirist Jug Suraiya was badgered by his partner to attend yet another festive-season party. "You'll meet lots of interesting people," he protests. "I'll end up as always like a spare Sourav; present and accounted for, but no one quite knows what's to be done with him." Indeed, no one quite knows.

The Ganguly situation is impossible. No answer is a solution, not even the one of respectfully putting him out to pasture, because he isn't going, and if he isn't going he is almost certain to be back. No, the situation must resolve itself and the rest is commentary. The fashion is to be exasperated, if not disgusted, by the whole affair. Personally I'm not tired of it. Not in the least. I'd be lying if I say I'm not fascinated: as human dramas go, there's too much in it.

And the situation could not be what it is were Ganguly not what he is. On braving my surname and referring to Ganguly as the most fascinating Indian cricketer of his generation in a recent article, I was ticked off by a reader: "I am sure no person, living or dead, on earth outside people of Bengali origin thinks that Ganguly comes anywhere close to being one of the most fascinating cricketers, let alone being `the most'." Another put it more succinctly: "A f***ing Bong standing up for another f***ing Bong."

Never mind the enlightened. The reactions Ganguly evokes comprise a phenomenon broader than Bengali parochialism. Cricinfo.com's diarist Siddhartha Vaidyanathan reported from Pakistan that the first thing locals asked him after the khatirdaari was about Ganguly. They were unhappy with the treatment meted out to him. They related to his naked passion. In one way or another Ganguly speaks to watchers. At once he compels you to assume both the best and worst about him; at once he can prove you both right and wrong. In short, he makes you feel. I have not spent quite so much time discussing, debating, any other cricketer. What is it about him?

I suppose Ganguly came to symbolise individualism and rebellion. Individualism in that he was given to flouting norms, yes, but also in the way he could not be bothered about members fitting into or giving energy to the group. To him match-winning talent was match-winning talent and that was that. Type was important: the brasher the better. In his book Aakash Chopra and Mohammad Kaif were meant for walk-on parts and Yuvraj Singh and Harbhajan Singh for glory. This could not be scoffed at because, as much as the attitude may have bred hubris, at the time the team was being built there exuded from it a rawness of belief that was both effective and appealing.

A journalist recalls being phoned by Ganguly to watch a youngster in a first-class game that was being televised. "Aap is ladke ko dekho. Badaa khilaadi hoga yeh. Mujhe khilaana hai. (Watch this boy. He is going to be a big player. I want to pick him right away.)" A few months on, Mahendra Singh Dhoni smashed 148 against Pakistan from No. 3. One player put it this way: "If you capture Dadi's imagination, he will do anything for you." And vice-versa, for once he'd captured Dadi's imagination the player too would do for anything for Dadi. Yuvraj on his first comeback to the team was quoted saying: "I'm ready to die for such a captain." Harbhajan's unstinting support can in some way be understood in light of the fact that, feeling defeated by disciplinary issues, the chucking saga, an ordinary international track record, and economic pressure at home, he was contemplating moving to the US to drive trucks for a living at the time Ganguly fought for his selection.

Generally Ganguly fostered angry or reckless young men. To him "good behaviour", a broad term espoused by the present team management, belonged in school and probably not even there. He himself had been summoned to the match referee no less than 12 times in the last decade. His approach was bound to precipitate what could possibly be termed a cultural conflict in the world of modern sport. For Ganguly, like for Arjuna Ranatunga, competitiveness involved brinksmanship rather than training. As far as they were concerned Australia were not to be aspired to. They were simply to be toppled. England were not to be appeased. Victory lay precisely in their disapproval. In other words, Ganguly and Ranatunga wanted to do things their way. Both carried a resonance of the anti-colonial rather than that of the savvy global sports professional of the age (in Pakistan, Ganguly blithely sported an oversized beanie bearing a logo of the wrong corporate). If it was limiting it was also inspiring. And it invited, from Western observers especially, a ludicrous mix of suspicion, ridicule and condemnation. Much more easy to be gracious about well-mannered fellows who toe the line.

So far so good. Ganguly quenched the thirst for individualism, which is an essential allure of sport; he had an effect on young players and followers similar to that of a rock concert, and all the while kept a successful team together thanks also to a wonderful set of seniors and a fine coach.

And yet, after a point every day for him became a day of decay: the uncorrected technical errors, the sinking fitness levels, the sagging fielding, the jaded tactics, the lowering of standards for himself and by extension for the entire side - not least the gifted youngsters over whom he had so much influence. Finally, his almost politician-like desperation to hold on to power manifested itself in an insecurity - or was it the other way round? - that tore away at the very fabric of the team.

The deterioration looked all the more stark because of the contrast with that most outstanding of cricketers, and Ganguly's exact contemporary and heir, Rahul Dravid. Simply, Dravid built himself on stronger foundations. Ganguly batted pretty as a butterfly but, distracted, found himself blown away by the winds of high pace. Dravid opened up once his base was sufficiently secure. When it came down to it, Dravid had the rigour to last. Likewise, where Ganguly the leader powered on bare-chested with the belief that with flair on his side nothing was impossible, Dravid appreciates that any group must have the safety net of work ethic, discipline, punctuality, enthusiasm - the finer things. Dravid's brand of risk-taking is more cerebral. With Ganguly there was always the element of danger, of losing it all. Ganguly was not about systems and processes. Ganguly was about whims and instincts. This was the thrill, and a great thrill. But I suppose when you're losing, the thrill is gone.

***

Personally, commenting on the Ganguly situation has been challenging because it involves a tussle between the heart, which wants the individual, the rebel, to beat the odds and win, and the mind, which cannot help but log the slow, sad decline. Then the watcher and the journalist in you battle and they can be, but are not in every instance, the same.

Besides, this was a situation like no other. The more I dwelled on the issue the more I stopped dwelling on the rights and wrongs (there were so many that there weren't any) and the merits of the case (which became too tiresome). They didn't matter so much either. Simply, I just wanted to see how it would unfold on a human level.

I suppose in effect I was choosing the simple intimacy of the watcher to the powerful insider-ness of the journalist. I couldn't see why a nebulous "what's best for the team" should become a pamphleteering cause with me - that was merely a parameter to be considered while trying to pass honest judgement on the actions of the men responsible. Beyond that it was neither my duty nor my inclination and I felt foolish for harbouring any guilt in this respect. At a deeply personal level it did not matter a great deal to me whether India became the next Australia or not. Cricket was at once a massive joke and the most significant human theatre and all the joy ultimately came from the universal stuff and would be fulfilling regardless. And banging on either way missed the most crucial point of sport - that we really don't know what's going to come.

It was with this sense of freedom that a colleague and I jumped on to a spontaneous train to Rajkot on the eve of a Duleep Trophy fixture in which Ganguly would need to prove his form and fitness. It felt like something special might happen, and it did. On a municipal ground, in an environment so anti-climactic that it was melodramatic, the soon-to-be-deposed Indian Test captain hit a rousing century. It was lovely to watch, not so much because of his strokes, some of which were indeed vintage, but because of all the other layers to it.

That evening I met Ganguly at his hotel. I was apprehensive. I had written critical articles about him over the past few months and these things have a way of getting around, often in exaggerated form. I had nothing specific to ask him. I only wanted to try and gauge what he might be thinking, how he might be reacting to the uniqueness of his dilemma.

There was an air of complete serenity about him, heightened because he was initially sitting on a swing in an open courtyard. He looked the perfect bhadralok: crisp white kurta pyjama, hair neatly parted, thin-rimmed spectacles.

It was an easy, enjoyable, and in some ways warm, conversation. Broadly, three things were striking. One was that retirement was very far from his mind; how others might like to remember him seemed to be their own business. Another was his sense of hurt about allegations of "divide and rule". But the most remarkable was his aura of calm. His family members would later tell The Hindustan Times that he has always been so, that he had never ever lost his cool off the cricket field, that nothing ever fazes him. He himself would say that he believed in destiny and expected to be playing the World Cup of 2007. In that short little meeting I could appreciate more properly than ever before the temperament of a man who at any moment of time has more knives at his back and more garlands at his face than a cabinet of ministers.

A week on, Ganguly was dropped from the one-day squad altogether. Then stripped of Test captaincy, then deemed a Test allrounder, then... you know the story.

The most revealing moment came in the response to his being dropped after the Delhi Test against Sri Lanka. He could have retired right then a saint, all sins forgotten. The man who a few months ago was among the most reviled in the land now had the undiluted support of the nation. It was extraordinary that he would pass up the opportunity and choose instead to put himself and the team under so much pressure and run the risk even of humiliation - were he to return and flop. As ever he left you grappling with mixed feelings: to admire his self-belief or to dismiss him as delusional? What to make of such a man?

And so there he was in Lahore in India's first Test of the new year. He probably should not have been playing at all. Despite the denials to the contrary, it is learnt that his inclusion in the touring party had more to do with the wishes of authorities other than the selectors and the team management.

Late on the second afternoon: Pakistan 668 for 6, India wilting. Ganguly had just made an impressive dive at the boundary. Now a high ball swirled above his head. An initial misjudgement, frantic back-tracking, a final, flailing leap, a one-handed catch both spectacular and comic, a slow-motion backward roll on hitting the ground, and off like a bomb upon regaining poise, injecting humour and spirit into a weary side. It felt like he was one of the boys again. Even Greg Chappell smiled. It was by a distance the most contagious moment of the game. He did not bat a single ball and humbly carried drinks in the next Test.

He was back again for the final match. He made 34, 37, and two errors which were each to be - as luck would have it, and since this story has a strain of tragedy running through it - his only error of each innings. Both times the team required a big score and in the final analysis these were a pair of letdowns. Still it was not an illusion: he indeed batted beautifully, more fluently than any other Indian in the match and as fluently as he had ever done in his career. Few could have expected it. Among those few was Ganguly.

Two days later he flew back home as Dravid turned his mind to the upcoming one-dayers and, some part of it no doubt, to the batting order for the next Test series. And that's where the Sourav Ganguly saga rested at the last opportunity to update.
**************************************************************************
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ramshorns

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2006, 07:16:35 PM »
Thanks Kban1.  Never doubted your credibility.  But I posted my thoughts as well on how I feel about the whole WK issue under SG with PP/RD and what not.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 09:16:22 PM by ramshorns »
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squarecut

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2006, 09:04:48 PM »
Rams:

PP was a chance that did not pay off. And yes, persisting with him for as long as we did was a mistake. We kept hoping for improvement which did not come about --we should have sent him to domestics to work on his game much earlier.
that was  one of the SG's weaknesses blindly supporting somebody hoping they will improve .PP was the worst WK and we easily should have won series in Aus if not for him.
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prfsr

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2006, 09:22:01 PM »
Rams:

PP was a chance that did not pay off. And yes, persisting with him for as long as we did was a mistake. We kept hoping for improvement which did not come about --we should have sent him to domestics to work on his game much earlier.

Wow, kban is harsh on Prem!
-P
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kban1

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2006, 09:39:25 PM »
Parthiv patel, not prem.

 ;D
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123of

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2006, 10:08:34 AM »
system knew about dhoni long before ganguly came in the picture .

 yes, ganguly to save his place did keep him out by we all know how .

article in the newspaper is a pr exercise,

 but if it makes ganguly fans happy to think dhoni was gaguly find

and that rd was being saved by wk and that it improved his batting

. well good for ganguly fans . they do need good things about ganguly to love him .

people who are aware of the reality of those days will only smile at the people livling in the fools happy land.

 but enjoy it , i knowe its a fun place to be.

and ganguly above all else was fun

nothing is as fun as knowing that a egomanic fool is alowed to lead your country team with freehand .

you can only laugh at ganguly. you have no idea how funny it used to be when ever we used to lose, which was often.
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achutank

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2006, 10:38:28 AM »
and which kind of fool are you sir/madam 123? here are a few choices for your able selection:

(a) "i-believe-that-RD-knows-his-running-between-wickets" fool
(b) "kaif-should-be-in-the-team-even-if-he-is-looking-at-becoming-the-next-chris-tavare" fool
(c) "vvs-stands-no-chance-in-the-odi-setup" fool
(d) "robin-uthapa-is-a-logical-replacement-for-SG-in-opening" fool
(e) "strategies-alone-means-leadership" fool
(f) "idiotc-bravado-like-opening-the-batting-is-equal-to-leading-from-the-front" fool
(g) "everybody-knows-the-team-requirement-even-if-we-have-a-run-rate-below-4-in-the-40th-over" fool
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keep-it-cool

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2006, 10:58:15 AM »
system knew about dhoni long before ganguly came in the picture .

 yes, ganguly to save his place did keep him out by we all know how .

article in the newspaper is a pr exercise,

 but if it makes ganguly fans happy to think dhoni was gaguly find

and that rd was being saved by wk and that it improved his batting

. well good for ganguly fans . they do need good things about ganguly to love him .

people who are aware of the reality of those days will only smile at the people livling in the fools happy land.

 but enjoy it , i knowe its a fun place to be.

and ganguly above all else was fun

nothing is as fun as knowing that a egomanic fool is alowed to lead your country team with freehand .

you can only laugh at ganguly. you have no idea how funny it used to be when ever we used to lose, which was often.

Now this is the kind of "fan" we can all do without ... and my sense is that there are enough of these (far more than we may want to acknowledge) now, on both sides of the "great divide". It does not matter, frankly, unless they have a say in what happens with the team.
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cricinfo

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Re: Merged: RD's captaincy -- ODI series / 4th ODI
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2006, 03:21:00 PM »
achuntak your question is not answerable as you did not even list the correct option ...and it is ...........


h)ALL OF THE ABOVE
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