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[ruchir]

This article is published on Rediff, about Islamic terrorism in Kashmir and its possible solutions. No finger-pointing at any community, except Indian Govt.


What will it take, Mr Prime Minister?

May 09, 2006

January 25/26, 1997: 25 at Wandhama-*erbal

March 20, 1997: 7 at Sangrampura

April 18, 1998: 27 at Prankote

June 19, 1998: 25 at Chapnari

July 28, 1998: 16 in two villages of Doda district

August 8, 1998: 35 at Kalaban

February 20, 1999: 4 at Muraputta, 9 at Barlyara and 7 at Bllala

June 30, 1999: 15 in Anantnag district

July 19, 1999: 15 at Layata

February 28, 2000: 5 near Qazigund

March 20, 2000: 35 at Chatisinghpora

August 1, 2000: 31 Amarnath Yatris at Pahalgam

August 1-2, 2000: 27 in Qazigund and Achabal

August 2, 2000: 11 in Doda district

February 3, 2001: 6 in Mahjoornagar in Srinagar

February 11, 2001: 15 in Kot-Chadwal

March 2, 2001: 15 in Manjkote

March 17, 2001: 8 near Atholi in Doda

July 21, 2001: 13 including 7 Amarnath pilgrims at Sheshnag

July 22, 2001: 12 in Cheerji and Tagood in Doda district

August 4, 2001: 15 in Ludder-Sharotid Har area in Doda district

January 7, 2002: 17 in Ramsoo

February 17, 2002: 8 in Rajouri

March 30, 2002: 12 at the Raghunath temple in Jammu

May 14, 2002: 32 at the army camp in Kaluchak, Jammu

July 13, 2002: 20 in Kasim Nagar, Jammu

August 6, 2002: 9 Amarnath pilgrims at the Nunwan base camp in Pahalgam

August 24, 2002: 10 in Rajouri

November 24, 2002: 14 at the Raghunath Temple in Jammu

March 24, 2003: 24 in Nadimarg

April 29, 2005: 13 in Udhampur district

April 30, 2005: 22 in Doda district

Wonder what these numbers refer to? Yes, these numbers refer to the innocent people who have been massacred by Islamist terrorists in the state of Jammu & Kashmir during last few years. And this is not a comprehensive list by any means. It just highlights the major massacres that have been undertaken by Islamist terrorists in recent years. In addition to these major massacres, there have been targeted killings going on at regular intervals all through these years.

And do you know what was common among these innocent victims? Yes, all these victims of Islamic terrorism were innocent Hindus, who believed in the Indian national flag and Constitution.

Targeted killings of Hindus in J&K continue unabated but nothing moves our state and central government. Instead of any concrete and decisive response, we hear oft-repeated sound-bytes from our politicians and policy makers. Here is how they reacted to the latest massacre in Doda and Udhampur:

Militants kill 22 in remote Doda village

'People of Kashmir have rejected and rebuffed terrorists repeatedly,' said our Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh.

'We have advised the state authorities to review the security measures for the minorities in the state. This incident clearly shows the desperation of the terrorists who want to derail the peace process in the state,' said Home Secretary V K Duggal.

Our Minister of State for Home Sriprakash Jaiswal chimed in: 'The terrorists do not want the peace initiatives being taken by the Centre to succeed.'

And finally J&K's Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad topped it off by saying: 'The killers will not be spared. We will not allow them to succeed in their designs. We would rather give a big push to the peace process. I want to make it clear once and for all that we will not bow to any pressure from terrorists. They will not be allowed to get away with their acts of mass murders.'

Mr Chief Minister, which planet are you living in? They have been getting away with these acts of mass murder all along without any punitive repercussions and you talk about not allowing them to get away. I know it is said that ignorance is bliss but not in this case. Please wake up and try to see the reality on the ground.

Do these sound bytes sound familiar? How many times have we heard these already? At this point, we don't even need to ask these politicians for their reaction. Don't we already know what they are going to say?

And what do the Opposition parties do? The age-old call for a bandh. That is what the National Conference and Panthers Party have done -- called for a Jammu bandh. The BJP has not even done that. It has totally given up. It might as well close the shop and go for a perpetual Rath Yatra touring every village of India. That will keep the BJP and its remaining leadership busy for a while.

The worst but most-repeated statement that the Government of India issues is: 'These killings will not affect the peace process with Pakistan.'

WHY NOT?

Why shouldn't these killings affect the peace process with Pakistan? Why shouldn't India withdraw from all the peace processes and so-called confidence building measures? Why shouldn't India demand the absolute closing down of the entire terror infrastructure in Pakistan and the verification of the same by joint Indo-Pak forces? Why shouldn't India be forthright and blunt about blaming Pakistan for this scourge of terrorism? Why does India have to play nice while its innocent citizens, including little children, are getting killed day in and day out by these Islamist terrorists who are supported and sponsored by Pakistan?

Until and unless Pakistan stops all the support -- moral, political, diplomatic, economic and military, to terrorists, India should not entertain any offer of talks from Pakistan. India just needs to focus on eradicating terrorists from J&K and I propose the following 13-step process to achieve that with immediate effect:

1. Stop all confidence building measures that are in process with Pakistan;

2. Suspend all diplomatic relations with Pakistan;
3. Suspend the Caravan-e-Aman bus service between Srinagar and Muzzafarabad;

4. Cancel the scheduled meeting with Pakistan's puppets, the Hurriyat Conference;

5. Seal the entire border with Pakistan and Bangladesh;

6. Declare internal emergency in J&K, without suspending the constitution;

7. Appoint someone like K P S Gill as the internal security czar in J&K, who will oversee the entire security operations in the state and will report directly to the Prime Minister's Office;

8. Let the civilian state government, elected by the masses, handle the civilian operations within the state;

9. Give appropriate and required authority to security forces and agencies;

10. Ask all foreign reporters and so-called Amnesty International observers to leave J&K within 24 hours;

11. Give an ultimatum to all the citizens of J&K to stop shielding and supporting terrorists. Anyone found shielding and supporting any terrorists will be charged accordingly;

12. Give an ultimatum of 3 weeks to all terrorists in J&K to lay down arms and surrender or face the wrath of the security forces and; 13. Then let the show begin.

At the South Asia Journal conference organised by South Asia Free Media Association, Pakistan's Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said, 'The dialogue process with India is underway. However, its pace is not very good and there is need to speed up this process.' He also said: 'Both countries now should move towards dispute resolution rather than dispute management.'

India should tell Shaukat Aziz to shut up and instead focus on his internal mess. It is about time to tell Pakistan to go to hell. India has no obligation to listen to Shaukat Aziz or any of his minions.

India does not have to worry about how the US and other European nations will react to her strategy to deal with terrorism. It is India's problem and India needs to deal with it in the manner that is in the best interest of India and its citizens. When a nine-year-old girl is killed in Doda district, it is the blood of India that flows. We need to be crystal clear in our dealings with US and other Western nations and tell them categorically that Indian blood is as precious as American or European blood.

If the US and other Western nations can take all the extreme measures, which they should and they are, to protect their citizens and land, India has the absolute right to do the same. When a terrorist hurts an innocent Indian child, s/he is hurting the whole nation of India and India will not tolerate that at any cost.

So I have only one question for our honorable Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh:

Having already lost so much innocent blood, what will it take Mr Prime Minister?

Lalit Koul is the editor and publisher of Kashmir Herald, an online news-journal available at http://www.kashmirherald.com He can be reached at editor@kashmirherald.com

[avinashgodkhindi]

Ruchir a good article, I like the part where he is talking of the politicians. very very sad and true, they are all making a fool of us by giving us lip service.

I am not very sure if the measures he has suggested are practical.

I don't understand how can point 5 be implemented, it is a huge bottle neck. "seal border with pak", with the kind of mountain ranges there it wudn't be possible. We can't build the kind of wall israel is( I take this example, bcoz a lot of ppl give me the example of israel ad nauseaum, whenever this discussion of handling terrorism comes up).

Point 10 also doesn't make sense, aska ll international journalists and amnesty to walk away. Why? Are we proposing to build a Taliban here? This wud be incorrect, bcoz inspite of not commiting any crimes, our government will be proven guilty,even without trail!!!! This wud be enof for the world community to totally pressurize us and defame the indian efforts,its a counterproductive move.

Also closing ppl to ppl contact will bring us back to the days where we had no understanding of the ordinary pakistani and pakistan. We all branded all of them as "bad ppl", ppl without a heart. We now know, after the exchanges that there may be a anti india sentiment in pakista but the ppl there are also humans. They are not as evil and sinister as we all thought them to be, defiently not saints, but neither friends of satan.

So do not agree with the 1st part of his suggestions.

I agree that someone like tough should be called in adn must be given all the powers to tackle the terrorists.

funnily, the author uses the phrase in point 11 "Citizens of J & K". huh!!!! I always thought citizens belong to a country not a province. May be a silly mistake ,but somewhere may point to the subconcious feeling s of the author.

[ruchir]

avinash:

Point 5: Yes, it is difficult to "seal" the border with PAK. More so with BD because there you have swamps and forests, which are more difficult to monitor. But the sentiment behind the point was to stop the influx of illegal migrants/terrorists as much as possible. I agree it will be very difficult to completely seal the border. But, if you build a wall or a fence on most of the border then army personnel can be relocated to the unfenced are, in higher density, to patrol it better.

Point 10: I, somewhat, agree with his sentiment of pulling out foriegn reporters and amnesty people, though I will say that it will give us a lot of bad press. Here is the reason. If you look into history, whenever hindus have been butchered in Kashmir, we have never ever heared Amnesty International or any other Indian NGO coming out with a statement blasting the henious acts of the terrorists. Where as any time there is a news of a muslim being killed, whether militant or a regular kashmiri, these guys come out in full force shouting against the army. If amnesty people were to utter one word seriously when a hindu was killed, it would satisfy most of us. I think the author is frustrated with this bias. Same for foriegn journalists. Most of them concentrate on the searches done by army and not on the number of hospitals, schools being operated by army or roads and bridges built by them. So, I feel the author's sentiment is more on the bias by amnesty people and foriegn journalists.

As for people-to-people contact, it may be helpfull but look at it this way. Has this contact helped in shutting militancy in Kashmir? No. So, if it is not helpful then why keep it going? Politicians thought that this contact will bring about a change of heart in indian and PAK people. It did change us as we have accepted many PAK artists like Adnan Sami and other movie artists. Have people of PAK changed? No. They still give millions of rupees in donation to HM and LET to attack us. Forget about cricket matches. Look at the public in general in PAK.

Point 11: It is a mistake on author's part to use "citizens of J&K". I mean, in last assembly elections there, there was 64% voter turn out. If that is not indicative of them accepting India as their country then what is? Maybe the author is disillusioned by a few giving shelter to terrorists by I fell, overall, all Kashmiries want to be in India rather than PAK.

[avinashgodkhindi]

Ruchir see the population of PAK is 150 million and out of that even if 5% give 100 rupees you are talking of a huge huge amount of money. 750 million, 75 crores!!! So all pakistanis need not be in favour of these killings but I am sure there are a some who are that crazy. Also I think these fund raising campains are all eye wash and basically it is another way Mushy way of routing money to terrorists. Who can prove whether 1 million was collected for 50 million? Its cash so no records are left of how much was actually donated by the masses, under what guise was this money taken from them. I mean when the govt is non democratic the whole equation changes, the media will defiently have loads of anti india sentiment with regards to kashmir, specially the vernacular press and all this controlled by Musharraf. So if someone reads every day that ppl of his religion who are a minority in a neighbouring country are being killed,raped and butchered by an oppresive tyranical govt. then they believe it,specially if their educational levels are pretty low. Lets not forget that Musharraf was the archieteect of Kargil, I always view his moves with skepticism ( actually suspicion)

I think we must continue ppl to ppl contact,thats the only way of reaching out and changing the minds of others. We have to engage, thats the only long term solution; we cannot wish that pakistani govt. will change its ways overnight,specially with a dictator in power. If the ppl's perspection changes, like the Noor Fatima case; it will make a massive differencce in the long run. Ppl is Pak saw a Hindu Indian doctor saving the life of this pakistani child and they saw the love that the whole of the indian nation showered on this kid; it defiently opened their eyes. I am sure, in the minds of atleast a few thousand pakistanis the image of Indians as bad ppl would have changed dramatically.

If the hatred between the two countries reduces, the violence definetly will. Permanent solutions take time, they need a lot of patience and conviction.

[ruchir]

avinash: Get your point... but am still a little apprehensive....

[flute202020]

avinash:

Point 5: Yes, it is difficult to "seal" the border with PAK. More so with BD because there you have swamps and forests, which are more difficult to monitor. But the sentiment behind the point was to stop the influx of illegal migrants/terrorists as much as possible. I agree it will be very difficult to completely seal the border. But, if you build a wall or a fence on most of the border then army personnel can be relocated to the unfenced are, in higher density, to patrol it better.

Point 10: I, somewhat, agree with his sentiment of pulling out foriegn reporters and amnesty people, though I will say that it will give us a lot of bad press. Here is the reason. If you look into history, whenever hindus have been butchered in Kashmir, we have never ever heared Amnesty International or any other Indian NGO coming out with a statement blasting the henious acts of the terrorists. Where as any time there is a news of a muslim being killed, whether militant or a regular kashmiri, these guys come out in full force shouting against the army. If amnesty people were to utter one word seriously when a hindu was killed, it would satisfy most of us. I think the author is frustrated with this bias. Same for foriegn journalists. Most of them concentrate on the searches done by army and not on the number of hospitals, schools being operated by army or roads and bridges built by them. So, I feel the author's sentiment is more on the bias by amnesty people and foriegn journalists.

As for people-to-people contact, it may be helpfull but look at it this way. Has this contact helped in shutting militancy in Kashmir? No. So, if it is not helpful then why keep it going? Politicians thought that this contact will bring about a change of heart in indian and PAK people. It did change us as we have accepted many PAK artists like Adnan Sami and other movie artists. Have people of PAK changed? No. They still give millions of rupees in donation to HM and LET to attack us. Forget about cricket matches. Look at the public in general in PAK.

Point 11: It is a mistake on author's part to use "citizens of J&K". I mean, in last assembly elections there, there was 64% voter turn out. If that is not indicative of them accepting India as their country then what is? Maybe the author is disillusioned by a few giving shelter to terrorists by I fell, overall, all Kashmiries want to be in India rather than PAK.

Why is India finding it so difficult to manage this? Looking at Tibet-China issue, China is a clear aggressor, simply invaded and took Tibet, whereas our relationship with Kashmir is thousands of years old, we never accepted the 2 nation theory. We still find it so difficult, mainly because I think we been far too soft on this whole issue. China keeps Tibet open and anyone can go and settle down in Tibet, whereas in Kashmir, other Indians cannot go there freely. On top it, there is ethnic cleansing happening , by systematically removing a particular community from the whole of the state. The biggest defeat in loosing the diversity of the kashmir demographics and also making it difficult for Indians from other parts to go and settle down there.

The best solution IMHO is,

1. Invest as much money as you need, SEAL the borders. It is difficult but not impossible, and with political will, it can be done. It has been done to some extent and it needs to be finished. Get the latest technology, use electronic surveilance measures etc.

2. All Indians from all parts of the country should be allowed into Kashmir. Once law and order improves, people from other parts will be more inclined to go there and it should be allowed. To reduce political fall out, instead of changing Kashmir constitution etc., simply allow people from other parts to lease real estate on a long term basis, say for 100 yrs or 200 yrs, effectively buying it. Making it a attractive option for people from other parts to settle down in Kashmir.

 Put a series of measures to encourage people-people contact, not between India and Pakistan but between rest of India and Kashmir. Give credit,govt. land , jobs etc. to encourage people to go and settle down in Kashmir. Give same sops for Kashmiris, give them special Kashmir quotas to study in various Indian universities, jobs etc.

3. Keep talking to Pak, keep talking of peace, always vouch for peace, but on the ground, never for once, change your policies in hope of peace. Pakistan is afraid of peace, afraid that they will loose their identity if they come too close to India, the very basis of Pakistan creation will be under question if they become friendly with India.

In addition to the above, growing economic muscle of India coupled with our mordernising military, will effectively close the issue in 10 yrs. I believe, in fact, that exactly what will happen ultimately. If we are more proactive, 10 yrs, if not may be 20 yrs, but that is the ultimately solution. There is nothing to settle down with Pak(except may be POK). Talk about peace all you want, but drag it and keep dragging it. Time will give us a solution and that will be when India's economic might improves several fold.

[ruchir]

flute:

Good points from you. And I agree that the main thing lacking in India is the Political Will to solve this problem, once and for all.

Kargil had given us a golden opportunity but Vajpayee govt. blew it. He we penetrated PAK then, this whole problem of Kashmir and PAK supporting them would have been solved. Vajpayee, for some reason, blinked first at the nuclear threat from Mushy. Hell, there is no way Mushy was going to use any kind of nuclear device. That entire country would have been blown away had he done that.

I feel we missed an opportunity in 1971 and then again in Kargil. This shows clear lack of political will insolving the Kashmir issue, no matter who the ruling party is.

I don't think there is a simple solution to Kashmir. The stakes from both sides are so high that no one will give in first. There is too much blood and money invested from both sides. The solution will be a hard one and we will have to wait for another big incident to happen to use it as an excuse, that is if we will have any better politician in future.

About sealing the border, you know the terrain of US-Mexico border. US is not able to seal that fully. Reasons can be any but the reality is that a country like US is not able to seal its borders. So, imagine how it is for us to seal our borders. And it is not just the Kashmir border. It is Kashmir, Rajasthan, Gujrat, Punjab. All these states share border with PAK. UP, Himachal share border with Nepal where ISI has a big base. Most North-eastern states share border with BD where there is most infiltrations. Infiltration will start from a new point if it is closed at one. The trick is to seal it with a wall or fence in those places where manual monitoring is not easily possible and shift more personnel to those areas where manual monitoring can be done. However, ultimate goal will be to have a fince or a wall on every inch of the shared border.

I agree with you that whenever we talk to PAK about Kashmir, the ONLY thing we should talk about it POK. There is nothing else to discuss with them. Period.

[flute202020]

flute:

Good points from you. And I agree that the main thing lacking in India is the Political Will to solve this problem, once and for all.

Kargil had given us a golden opportunity but Vajpayee govt. blew it. He we penetrated PAK then, this whole problem of Kashmir and PAK supporting them would have been solved. Vajpayee, for some reason, blinked first at the nuclear threat from Mushy. Hell, there is no way Mushy was going to use any kind of nuclear device. That entire country would have been blown away had he done that.

I feel we missed an opportunity in 1971 and then again in Kargil. This shows clear lack of political will insolving the Kashmir issue, no matter who the ruling party is.

I don't think there is a simple solution to Kashmir. The stakes from both sides are so high that no one will give in first. There is too much blood and money invested from both sides. The solution will be a hard one and we will have to wait for another big incident to happen to use it as an excuse, that is if we will have any better politician in future.

About sealing the border, you know the terrain of US-Mexico border. US is not able to seal that fully. Reasons can be any but the reality is that a country like US is not able to seal its borders. So, imagine how it is for us to seal our borders. And it is not just the Kashmir border. It is Kashmir, Rajasthan, Gujrat, Punjab. All these states share border with PAK. UP, Himachal share border with Nepal where ISI has a big base. Most North-eastern states share border with BD where there is most infiltrations. Infiltration will start from a new point if it is closed at one. The trick is to seal it with a wall or fence in those places where manual monitoring is not easily possible and shift more personnel to those areas where manual monitoring can be done. However, ultimate goal will be to have a fince or a wall on every inch of the shared border.

I agree with you that whenever we talk to PAK about Kashmir, the ONLY thing we should talk about it POK. There is nothing else to discuss with them. Period.

Ruchir, You are right. I biggest mistake common people in India make is, confuse terrorism with Kashmir. In so far as we are concerned, terrorism is the problem, not Kashmir. Whenever some people die in Kashmir, the talk tends to divert to Kashmir isue, while in reality the problem is terrorism. Kashmir or no Kashmir, we will have the terrorism problem for sure.

As for US not sealing US-Mexico border, I think the situation would have been completely different if US faced terror from Mexico. They would have simply invaded mexico and fough terror in Mexico land and not let anyone come into US land. So, the intent and will of USA would have been completely different if citizen's life is at risk. We need to do the same. The right of a citizen to walk in the market and go about his daily life is very very important and if that daily life is under threat, we should take very strong measures to ensure that daily life is not affected.

In terms of technology to achieve it, I think we do have the latest from Isreal & US now and if we can use the opportunity presented by peace talks to fence and control border , it did be great. This was being done to some extent, not sure if things eased off a bit after Congress/Left  rule started.

[ruchir]

In terms of technology to achieve it, I think we do have the latest from Isreal & US now and if we can use the opportunity presented by peace talks to fence and control border , it did be great. This was being done to some extent, not sure if things eased off a bit after Congress/Left  rule started.

Vajpayee govt. did undertake fencing in Kashmir. They were able to fence about 740 kms of border by the time their term ended. This had already resulted in decresed infiltration. Not sure how the fencing have progressed under Cong rule. Maybe someone here has any idea?

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

In Kashmir "Pak sar zameen asman" is the most common ringtone how do you explain that ruchir, still think that kashmiris want to be a part of India?

[flute202020]

In Kashmir "Pak sar zameen asman" is the most common ringtone how do you explain that ruchir, still think that kashmiris want to be a part of India?

desi yankee, I think public opinion is transient one and I don't think Kashmiris are as much emotional about India as the rest of the Indians, but it doesn't mean they want to separate.

When you say, "most common ringtone", what percentage of ring tones? which areas has this ring tone? valley,  mostly? what percentage of people in J&K have mobile phones?

A 60% percent voter turn out is by any means a more comprehensive indication of people mood, don't you think?

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

flute, going by the laws of economics that the ones that are more well off are more progressive shouldn't it be more startling that most of the kashmiris choose pak sar zameen asman as their ringtone?

[ruchir]

desi: I am interested in knowing the source of this news of what ringtones are popular in Kashmir. Just want to know who did this research and how were these ringtones acquired.

[flute202020]

flute, going by the laws of economics that the ones that are more well off are more progressive shouldn't it be more startling that most of the kashmiris choose pak sar zameen asman as their ringtone?

interesting, which law of economics states that well off are progressive? well off are more prone to fad, fasion & propo*a, that I can agree. I see a lot of people in Hyd wearing T-shirts with union jack on it. It doesn't mean , they are in love with UK. I am not saying, in Kashmir, it is not the case, but ring tone alone cannot indicate whole truth. On top of it, "most popular/common ring tone" online etc. are always fishy and I always look at  such statistics with scepticism, just like exit polls in India.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

http://pakistantimes.net/2004/10/12/kashmir3.htm

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

and if you really think pakistanis have the money for such activities i have nothing else to say. The money is poured in from Saudi

[flute202020]

http://pakistantimes.net/2004/10/12/kashmir3.htm

  This report is your basis?

[flute202020]

For everyone's benefit, here is the report that Desi Yankee referred. Not sure, on what basis Desi claims that Pak anthem is the most popular in J&K, there is nothing like a poll or online poll or something. This report simply claims to have spoken to couple of students.


ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani National Anthem is becoming quite popular in Indian Held Kashmir, thanks to the growing number of cell phone users choosing it as their ring-tones.

The Indian National Anthem has never been popular in the Valley.

Students say they've got the ring tone from their Pakistani friends. "I received it from one of my friends in Srinagar," Feroz Ahmad told the Times of India. Feroz a professional in his twenties had got it from a friend, and all of them keep passing it on to other friends.

Pak Sar Zameen Shaad Baad (Blessed Be The Sacred Land), the Pakistani anthem, is preferred in Kashmir to the Indian National Anthem, says Aaftab Wani, an unemployed youth.

Giving reasons of popularity of Pak Anthem he says, because they never learnt about it in school and anti-India feelings are growing.

Above all, Kashmiris have a soft corner for Pakistan, because in a demographic and religious sense, they relate to their neighbour (Pakistan) more closely.●

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

I read this in the news about a year or two back, obviously I cannot find the actual article on the website. By the way, the survey was carried out by Times Of India, whose online version might be pretty crappy but print is still one of India's top selling (not sure if it is the highest) Flute, if you really think Kashmirs in J&K want to be with India then I hope whatever Kashmiris I interact with don't reflect the views of the others back home.

[avinashgodkhindi]

desi yankee

1. The report DOES NOT state that the pak national anthem is the MOST popular ring, states merely that it has become popular. With qualitative generic statements without any logical argument " Indian national anthem was never popular", Yes this bloddy f***ing reporter went to every kashmiri and asked. How thee hell does he know? Its just gas of his ass that he is spewing on our face
2. Having a ring tone doesn't make me more inclined to a particular country. If I have the ring tone of timbaktu on my phone bcoz i like it, its considered cool and has foot tapping music, does it mean i want to be atimbaktu citizen?
3. With a miniscule population in kashmir having a phone how can it a basis of any judgement?
4. Maybe the ppl are disillusioned with their national govt(indian govt) bcoz it is not doing enof to protect their lives. Anger makes ppl resort to such measures, does it mean they are more pakistani than indian ,no way. Its a temporary feeling/anger that they are expressing in this way.
5. Don't be surprised if quite a few youngsters don't even know its the pak national anthem tune.

[flute202020]

I read this in the news about a year or two back, obviously I cannot find the actual article on the website. By the way, the survey was carried out by Times Of India, whose online version might be pretty crappy but print is still one of India's top selling (not sure if it is the highest) Flute, if you really think Kashmirs in J&K want to be with India then I hope whatever Kashmiris I interact with don't reflect the views of the others back home.

Desi, Oh OK, I get your point.

Going by various media reports, I think it is safe to assume that Kashmiris are not as emotionally attached to India as the rest of us. But, it is also not correct to depend on ring tones popularity etc. Did you know that a UK based opinion poll concluded that Kashmiris want to be with India? can we ignore the overwhelming response to elections in J&K? voter turn out braving extremist's anger, do you remember?

Even then, my claim is not that they are all very happy or want to be with India, but I think it is simply wrong to conclude otherwise. Also, the problem with any issue is that the most vocal gets the most attention. Kashmir valley is the most vocal and all media reports,impressions tend to come from the valley.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

I have a few questions for you Ruchir
1. Have you ever been to Pakistan?
2. Have you been to kashmir?
3. Have you been in a nuclear war?
4. On what basis do you say that Pakistan would be the only country destroyed in case we were in a nuclear war with them?

By the way flute completely agree with you that India needs to improve interaction with Kashmir. Article 370 needs to be repealed. Article 356 needs to be enforced in cases when it's required. In fact article 370 needs to be completely removed from the constitution in order to enforce article 356 and article 360.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

desi yankee

1. The report DOES NOT state that the pak national anthem is the MOST popular ring, states merely that it has become popular. With qualitative generic statements without any logical argument " Indian national anthem was never popular", Yes this bloddy f***ing reporter went to every kashmiri and asked. How thee hell does he know? Its just gas of his ass that he is spewing on our face
2. Having a ring tone doesn't make me more inclined to a particular country. If I have the ring tone of timbaktu on my phone bcoz i like it, its considered cool and has foot tapping music, does it mean i want to be atimbaktu citizen?
3. With a miniscule population in kashmir having a phone how can it a basis of any judgement?
4. Maybe the ppl are disillusioned with their national govt(indian govt) bcoz it is not doing enof to protect their lives. Anger makes ppl resort to such measures, does it mean they are more pakistani than indian ,no way. Its a temporary feeling/anger that they are expressing in this way.
5. Don't be surprised if quite a few youngsters don't even know its the pak national anthem tune.

This bloody ****** Reporter happens to be an Indian and the newspaper an Indian mainstream newspaper. Enough said

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

flute:

Good points from you. And I agree that the main thing lacking in India is the Political Will to solve this problem, once and for all.

Kargil had given us a golden opportunity but Vajpayee govt. blew it. He we penetrated PAK then, this whole problem of Kashmir and PAK supporting them would have been solved. Vajpayee, for some reason, blinked first at the nuclear threat from Mushy. Hell, there is no way Mushy was going to use any kind of nuclear device. That entire country would have been blown away had he done that.

I feel we missed an opportunity in 1971 and then again in Kargil. This shows clear lack of political will insolving the Kashmir issue, no matter who the ruling party is.

I don't think there is a simple solution to Kashmir. The stakes from both sides are so high that no one will give in first. There is too much blood and money invested from both sides. The solution will be a hard one and we will have to wait for another big incident to happen to use it as an excuse, that is if we will have any better politician in future.

About sealing the border, you know the terrain of US-Mexico border. US is not able to seal that fully. Reasons can be any but the reality is that a country like US is not able to seal its borders. So, imagine how it is for us to seal our borders. And it is not just the Kashmir border. It is Kashmir, Rajasthan, Gujrat, Punjab. All these states share border with PAK. UP, Himachal share border with Nepal where ISI has a big base. Most North-eastern states share border with BD where there is most infiltrations. Infiltration will start from a new point if it is closed at one. The trick is to seal it with a wall or fence in those places where manual monitoring is not easily possible and shift more personnel to those areas where manual monitoring can be done. However, ultimate goal will be to have a fince or a wall on every inch of the shared border.

I agree with you that whenever we talk to PAK about Kashmir, the ONLY thing we should talk about it POK. There is nothing else to discuss with them. Period.

haha we don't even have the balls to go boss china for tibet and Aksai Chin right? 
In spite of Tibetans openly wanting to be with India. Heck even their Parliament is in INDIA!

[avinashgodkhindi]

Hi desi yankee

didn't read the TOI bit before making that post, yes TOI print edition is the largest selling indian English daily newspaper,so pretty credible. Have to agree on that. The paksitan times report though doesn't state thee that the author is indian, its a clearly pakistani e newspaper.

Agree with you on article 370 too, it has done so much harm to kashmir.

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

Hi desi yankee

didn't read the TOI bit before making that post, yes TOI print edition is the largest selling indian English daily newspaper,so pretty credible. Have to agree on that. The paksitan times report though doesn't state thee that the author is indian, its a clearly pakistani e newspaper.

Agree with you on article 370 too, it has done so much harm to kashmir.

Avinash, if you go through the article you will find the actual source - Times Of India

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

The author of the article says that full internal emergency needs to be declared in the state. I would assume that the orders for such an emergency would come from the President. This is what article 370 says

"The President has no right to suspend his Constitution in the State. The National emergency under Article 352 of the Constitution can be extended to Jammu and Kashmir to a limited extent and the financial emergency under Article 360 cannot be enforced in Jammu and Kashmir"

[toney]

Article 370 is the biggest joke ever and probably one of the costliest blunders in our short independant history. Does anyone have the guts to coovrrrect this mistake now? Flute, you are absolutely right. If this special status is removed, other Indians will invest in Kashmir. I am sure a central govt with a spine (fantansy, I guess) can guarantee the security of big company inestments too. This will change the mindset of the people too as the job opportunities increase.
The other thing that the govt should do is play tough with the Pak govt. We are not obliged to have those "people-to-people" relations with a country that harbours terror intentions against us and puts our people in peril.
I dont care if every single person in Kashmir supports joining Pakistan or being an independant country. Did we share similar sentiments when more than a handful of Punjabis asked for Khalistan? Wasnt that movement ruthlessly suppressed? Sure, innocent individuals may meet a sad fate. But if people in the region had provided support to the troops in Punjab, would that ever have happened? Similarly, as long as people remain sympathetic to the terrorists from across the border, they will meet similar fate. If the govt sends the message across that any person who doesnt provide positive support to the troops is at risk, I am sure terrorism wont be as popular anymore. Is it a great policy? Absolutely not. But who cares? Anyone who wants a separate state especially when based on such flimsy grounds should go through this. In any case, there is no other viable strategy to crush terrorism. This is one of the biggest reasons why I am a vocal opposer of taking out the death penalty.

BTW, the Indian govt should stop accepting APHC or Mirwaiz beeping Farooq as the sole spokesperson of the people in J&K. The Pandits as well as the people in Ladakh and the other areas should have their representation too.

[ruchir]

I have a few questions for you Ruchir
1. Have you ever been to Pakistan?
2. Have you been to kashmir?
3. Have you been in a nuclear war?
4. On what basis do you say that Pakistan would be the only country destroyed in case we were in a nuclear war with them?

desi:

I just asked you one question and you started giving me heat on that?

Points 1, 2, 3: Are you trying to say that because I have not been to Kashmir, PAK and have not been in a nuclear war, I am not qualified to comment on that? If so, fine. Same to you too. Unless you put a copy of PAK visa and some kind of ticket to PAK, out here, I will assume that you are not qualified to talk about these places too. Unless you show some scars of a nuclear war, you are not qualified to talk about it too. Why stop here, we should stop commenting about cricket too, because we have never played for India; and unless we do that, we are not qualified to talk about it.

By the way, this is what I said "That entire country would have been blown away had he done that.". Did I say anywhere that PAK is THE ONLY country that would be blown away? NO. But you assumed that I was saying that.

Many military personnel of India, serving and retired, have quoted on Rediff that in case of a IND-PAK war, if PAK tries to use a nuclear weapon, it will be able to use only one nuclear device against India. Response from India will not give it a chance of using a 2nd or 3rd device. By that time, it will be destroyed from our arsenal.

You may think that they are joking but remember one thing, we have fought and won 3 wars against PAK. So I would say that these gentleman know what they are talking about.

[ruchir]

haha we don't even have the balls to go boss china for tibet and Aksai Chin right? 
In spite of Tibetans openly wanting to be with India. Heck even their Parliament is in INDIA!

In my comments, I'm saying the same thing... that we are lacking political will to do anything against PAK. I have been consistently critisizing our govt. in this thread. You shouldn't laugh at me for agreeing with you....

[ruchir]

I read this in the news about a year or two back, obviously I cannot find the actual article on the website. By the way, the survey was carried out by Times Of India, whose online version might be pretty crappy but print is still one of India's top selling (not sure if it is the highest) Flute, if you really think Kashmirs in J&K want to be with India then I hope whatever Kashmiris I interact with don't reflect the views of the others back home.

Let's talk about the article in the PAK paper. In the article they say that some Feroz Ahmad told TOI that they got the ringtone from his friend in Srinagar.

1. Did Freoz actually say from his own mouth that this tone was popular in Kashmir?

NO. This is what that guy says "I received it from one of my friends in Srinagar," Feroz Ahmad told the Times of India." It is the PAK paper who thought that because a PAK citizen got this tone from Srinagar, it is popular in Kashmir. How come? What proves that if one person has this ringtone in Kashmir, it becomes a popular tone there? What makes PAK paper think that TOI will have the same sentiments about the popularity??


2. Does this article say that TOI was actually carrying out a survey of any kind in PAK?

NO. The article does not say anywhere that TOI was conducting any kind of survey that in PAK about which ringtone was popular in Kashmir. Nothing of this sort is there in the article. So, the question arises that what made did YOU think TOI was indeed conducting a survey in PAK? Did you stop to think why would TOI go to PAK to conduct a survey about ringtones in Kashmir?? Does that not sound stupid to you? Going to PAK to conduct a survey about Kashmir??


3. Did TOI conduct a similar survey in Kashmir about which ringtones are popular there?

No. Nowhere in the article PAK paper says that they are basing their article on any kind of survey done by TOI in Kashmir. Did you try to find in TOI archives if they did any such survey in Kashmir? If not, then why not?

4. Quote from the article: "Pak Sar Zameen Shaad Baad (Blessed Be The Sacred Land), the Pakistani anthem, is preferred in Kashmir to the Indian National Anthem, says Aaftab Wani, an unemployed youth." So, now the matters have come to such a level that we have to dicuss Kashmir policy based on a comment made by an UNEMPLOYED PAK YOUTH. Does this sound ridiculous to you?

5. What reasons that unemployed guy give for the popularity of the ringtone? "Giving reasons of popularity of Pak Anthem he says, because they never learnt about it in school and anti-India feelings are growing." Is this simply Moronostic or what? Becasue we don't teach PAK anthem in Kashmir school, it is popular there and anti-indian feelings are growing. So, if Bangladeshi anthem is not taught in India, does it become popular here? Can you, personally, believe in this logic of an unemployed pak youth? Would you have an entire debate about PAK popularity in Kashmir based on such illogical and stupid comments by PAK youth?

I don't understand how can we give any credibility to this article when it does not say whether TOI was doing any survey or not, what exactly TOI was doing in PAK asking questions about ringtones popular in Kashmir, what kind of people was TOI talking to? unemployed PAK youth ONLY or did they talk to some logical, educated guys too??

Personally, to me, this article is full of crap and has ZERO credibility. I can't believe TOI would go to PAK asking people there "do you know which ringtone is most popular in Kashmir" ?? Unless you can pull an article from TOI archive that talk about the same thing that it being talked about in this PAK paper, I suggest we stop using this article as a POINT OF REFERENCE in our debate.....

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-865206,curpg-1.cms

[Aloo Kashmiri Ul Haq]

i dont really understand how an article on the number of hindus killed is relevant to the kashmir issue. perhaps somewhere in the article the author should have mentioned the number displaced (which is very startling 500,000 to be exact)

also the author doesn't probably understand article 370 or he wants the indian govt to take the pakistani way, dictatorship which by the way wont be as bad as we think it might be.
ever heard of kashmiris in POK causing havoc? if that's not an indication that kashmiris want to stay with pakistan then what is. (if you imply that POK is differnet than J&K then it's an entirely different argument)

[dextrous]

ever heard of kashmiris in POK causing havoc? if that's not an indication that kashmiris want to stay with pakistan then what is.

And who has heard of Pol Pot's victim causing havoc? Or Jews causing havoc before Hitler annhilated them? Or even North Korean citizens causing havoc? Or Chinese workers causing havoc? Are those all proofs that things are fine and dandy there?

Need a press and a voice before they can cause havoc.

[avinashgodkhindi]

Ruchir,

I understand from both the articles that Aaftab Wahi and Feroz Ahmed are INDIAN kashmiris. I think in the points you ahve mentioend , u are assuming they are pakistanis. TOI is definetly a far more credible source than Pakistan Times but they also haven't conducted a survey or poll. But yes, we need to make sure the Kashimiris become a part of the mainstream Indian lifestyle and that article 370 is a big road block for that.

[ruchir]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-865206,curpg-1.cms

Thanks for taking time out to dig this article. Much appreciated. So, now, PAK paper report carries some weight.

First, let us see who the people are, who are mentioned in the article:

Feroz Ahmad   - 20+, professional
Majid             - unknown background
Aftab Wani     - unemployed
Naseema        - student
Ali Mohammad - Taxi driver

My doubts still remain because of the following:

• TOI clearly does not say it carried out any kind of survey to judge popularity of PAK in Kashmir.

• TOI does not say exactly how many people it talked to. Out of lakhs of people in Kashmir, did it talk to only these 5 guys that are mentioned in the article? Or did it talk to a big number to people, says about 10,000, that covered people of different ages, different religion, different economic background to get a better picture of what Kashmiris want? It has been well documented that it is the unemployed youth in Kashmir that is more drawn towards PAK and is more sympathatic to militancy.

• Look at the measured comment of Ali, the taxi driver, and also the comment of Feroz. These 2 are the only ones with jobs. Ali says clearly that Kashmiris want to stay with India. Feroz does not even comment about PAK. He just answers a question on where he got that ring tone.

• Majid, the unknown guy, too does not talk about PAK. He merely says that the ringtone has formed a long chain and is in demand. That's it. Nothing more from him.

• Now see Naseema. She is talking about fashion and make-up trends. What else can you expect from a college going girl? She says that wearing salwaar-kameez makes her feel closer to muslim society in PAK. Okay. But does she say that she wants to be a part of PAK? Does she says that she wants Kashmir to join PAK? NO. So? What do we get out of her remarks?

• Out of the 5 guys mentioned in the article, 3 clearly don't talk about PAK at all. So put them out of the picture. One, the girl, talks ONLY about fashion and make-up. So, we can not give much weightage to her. That leaves only Aftab, the unemployed guy. He is the one who is most quoted in the article. The TOI author seems to have based his article more on Aftab's comments than anything else. And also on a find that PAK ringtone is popular there. As I said before, it is the unemployed youth of Kashmir who creates most trouble.

So how can we say, based on the comments of one unemployed guy, that Kashmiris want to join PAK? At best, we can says that PAK ringtone is popular in Kashmir. Forget about fashion because traditonal ladies clothes in most muslim nations are about the same. Let me say one thing. If one of the Mozart ringtones was most popular in India, would you say that most Indians are enamoured by western culture and prefer adopting that compared to Indian culture? Of course, you can say that we have to read between the lines, see the comments in context of the bigger picture etc. etc. But I can also say that unless the author, TOI in this case, mentions clearly, what he was doing in Kashmir, what kind of questions were asked, why were the questions asked, how many people were covered, breakup of the people covered etc. etc, I won't believe that TOI carried out a serious survey to seriously find out the popularity of PAK in Kashmir. And I will also say, based on the fact that there was huge voter turn-out in the last elections held in Kashmir, that they want to be with India. Any sentiments for PAK are merely because they share the same religion.

[ruchir]

Ruchir,

I understand from both the articles that Aaftab Wahi and Feroz Ahmed are INDIAN kashmiris. I think in the points you ahve mentioend , u are assuming they are pakistanis. TOI is definetly a far more credible source than Pakistan Times but they also haven't conducted a survey or poll. But yes, we need to make sure the Kashimiris become a part of the mainstream Indian lifestyle and that article 370 is a big road block for that.

avinash:

Yes, I thought that guys mentioned in PAK paper were pakistanis. But that was before I read the TOI article.

I also agree with you on article 370....

[toney]

ever heard of kashmiris in POK causing havoc? if that's not an indication that kashmiris want to stay with pakistan then what is.

Have we heard anything about the people in PoK? I would really like to know. They have hardly been the subject of any major medium.

Desi yankee, I know you have spent some time in Pakistan. You have been vague about it. But have you ever had the chance to go visit PoK? This is not an accusation to say you are unfit to have an opinion about things.

My close friend (and this is no exaggeration), an army officer in Kashmir has often said how he, in plain clothes has been treated wonderfully well by locals.  Of course, he said they were guarded against people from outside the state. I am sure they could recognize an army officer from far too . But, even when they have told their grievances to him (about the govt, the unemployment, near poverty, army incidents), they never ever really cared for Pakistan. That gave me a picture that the people there are tired; tired of this foolish thing going on for 50 years. This is one of the biggest reasons why I feel  strong measures are needed for a short period of time to help bring things back to normalcy. I dont think this is possible without a little bit of bloodshed. We had three opportunities including Kargil and we never made use of it. IMO, when a fourth comes, we should make full use of it. It is only a matter of time.

[flute202020]

ever heard of kashmiris in POK causing havoc? if that's not an indication that kashmiris want to stay with pakistan then what is.

Have we heard anything about the people in PoK? I would really like to know. They have hardly been the subject of any major medium.

Desi yankee, I know you have spent some time in Pakistan. You have been vague about it. But have you ever had the chance to go visit PoK? This is not an accusation to say you are unfit to have an opinion about things.

My close friend (and this is no exaggeration), an army officer in Kashmir has often said how he, in plain clothes has been treated wonderfully well by locals.  Of course, he said they were guarded against people from outside the state. I am sure they could recognize an army officer from far too . But, even when they have told their grievances to him (about the govt, the unemployment, near poverty, army incidents), they never ever really cared for Pakistan. That gave me a picture that the people there are tired; tired of this foolish thing going on for 50 years. This is one of the biggest reasons why I feel  strong measures are needed for a short period of time to help bring things back to normalcy. I dont think this is possible without a little bit of bloodshed. We had three opportunities including Kargil and we never made use of it. IMO, when a fourth comes, we should make full use of it. It is only a matter of time.

toney, I too think an aggressive approach should be adopted in dealing with terror, I am not sure if we missed anything during previous wars. What exactly do you think we should have done? We did do that to Pakistan during the 1971 war, right? Like a lot of people suggested, even if we made Pak agree to a Kashmir settlement or took from real estate from them, do you think it would have solved the problem? They would have simply done the same things they are doing now. Further, even if we give entire Kashmir valley to them, they will still support terror. Pakistan army needs India ghost to survive. Period. Again, the problem is terror and not Kashmir. No amount of war will solve terror, for terror is resorted to by people who cannot win a direct war. Only way is to, adopt tough measures against known bad elements while at the same time providing good economic prosperity to the rest of the population, exactly like what we did in Punjab.

A war, irrespective of the result(even if we win), will be playing into Pak hands, for it is a failed state and India is booming and it is simply a matter of 10yrs when Pak will increasingly find itself isolated because a booming Indian economy makes everyone(rest of the world) shut up about Kashmir. On the other hand, if  Pak economy too prospers, it is counter productive for them to support terror at the same time. Either way, every passing year from now makes Kashmir irrelevant, we just have to talk peace with Kashmir, adopt tough anti terror measures and buy our time. Indian economy is on the verge of gaining a critical mass from which there is no turning back. Feel free to mark my words 

On the other hand, I am not advocating "no war". We will have to wage a war if terror continues, but at the time and place of our choosing.

1.War should not happen on our land.
2.War should not effect our economy too much.

The nature of terror is such that we have much more at stake, so we will have to buy our time in deciding about war.

[toney]

A war, irrespective of the result(even if we win), will be playing into Pak hands, for it is a failed state and India is booming and it is simply a matter of 10yrs when Pak will increasingly find itself isolated because a booming Indian economy makes everyone(rest of the world) shut up about Kashmir. On the other hand, if  Pak economy too prospers, it is counter productive for them to support terror at the same time. Either way, every passing year from now makes Kashmir irrelevant, we just have to talk peace with Kashmir, adopt tough anti terror measures and buy our time. Indian economy is on the verge of gaining a critical mass from which there is no turning back. Feel free to mark my words 

I liked this part especially.
I am not advocating war either. Who wants war when we can have peace instead? but we have to draw a line on how much a neighbour can take us for granted. Is it our fault that they didnt opt to progress like our country is trying to do?

As for what I meant by not making use of the three wars: General opinion is that we won the war and crushed the Pak army each time. Of course, they try to paint a different picture through their media. But even though we were in such a good position, we failed to use that in our negotiations and frankly, we had discussions on equal terms. I thought that was either being magnanimous or just plain stupid. It was our golden chance to put them in place. See, I dont want to keep saying that we are superior to our pea-sized neighbours (bloody hell, we are superiod to those pea-sized neighbours!! ). In fact, I am opposed to all the unethical trade and water sharing practices that we are accused of (if true). I am absolutely for negotiating areas such as trade, economic co-operation etc as an equal with Pak, Nepal or Bangladesh. But when a war is over, one which we never even started, we just dont need to be so considerate.