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[Cernunnos]

(disregarding BD)

v SL, 2008: Harby 6/102, 4/51 (demolition job)
v NZ, 2009: Harby 1/57, 6/63 (match-winning spell)
v SL, 2010: Harby did not play due to illness
v SA, 2010: Harby 4/10 (game changer), 2/70
v WI, 2011: Harby 70 priceless runs which helped secure the 1st innings lead.

[Cernunnos]

(disregarding BD)

v SL, 2008: Harby 6/102, 4/51 (demolition job)
v NZ, 2009: Harby 1/57, 6/63 (match-winning spell)
v SL, 2010: Harby did not play due to illness
v SA, 2010: Harby 4/10 (game changer), 2/70
v WI, 2011: Harby 70 priceless runs which helped secure the 1st innings lead.

Harbhajan had a stellar role to play in each of the 4 tests he played in the list above.
If you do a head to head comparison with Leady for these 4 tests:

v SL, 2008: Leady 39, 13
v NZ, 2009: Leady 30, -
v SA, 2010: Leady 38, 96
v WI, 2011: Leady 12, 0

Only one fifty in that list!
Hope this punctures the hype that Laxman is the biggest matchwinner we ever had. As his fan, this record is just not acceptable to me.

[feverpitch]

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." William Congreve, The Mourning Bride.

Cernunnos, now wait for the perfect storm.

[ramshorns]

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." William Congreve, The Mourning Bride.

Cernunnos, now wait for the perfect storm.

[feverpitch]

What happened to Rams' earlier post? Did it get the mods' goat?

[ramshorns]

Poor Darty and *uly fans reduced to fudging stats and tranishing facts when in those five games listed VVS was Man of the Match in 2 games one of them a game winning century chasing in a 4th inning plus in Durban no batsman crossed 40 when VVS got 96 and VVS has the top 2 of the 3 scores from both sides.  I love the way they rut while players like VVS continue to play.

[feverpitch]

Poor Darty and *uly fans reduced to fudging stats and tranishing facts when in those five games listed VVS was Man of the Match in 2 games one of them a game winning century chasing in a 4th inning plus in Durban no batsman crossed 40 when VVS got 96 and VVS has the top 2 of the 3 scores from both sides.  I love the way they rut while players like VVS continue to play.

I'm expecting action from mods.

[ramshorns]

I'm expecting action from mods.

[Cernunnos]

(disregarding BD)

v SL, 2008: Harby 6/102, 4/51 (demolition job)
v NZ, 2009: Harby 1/57, 6/63 (match-winning spell)
v SL, 2010: Harby did not play due to illness
v SA, 2010: Harby 4/10 (game changer), 2/70
v WI, 2011: Harby 70 priceless runs which helped secure the 1st innings lead.

Harbhajan had a stellar role to play in each of the 4 tests he played in the list above.
If you do a head to head comparison with Leady for these 4 tests:

v SL, 2008: Leady 39, 13
v NZ, 2009: Leady 30, -
v SA, 2010: Leady 38, 96
v WI, 2011: Leady 12, 0

Only one fifty in that list!
Hope this punctures the hype that Laxman is the biggest matchwinner we ever had. As his fan, this record is just not acceptable to me.

v SL, 2008: SRT 5, 31
v NZ, 2009: SRT 160
v SL, 2010: SRT 41, 54
v SA, 2010: SRT 13, 6
v WI, 2011: SRT absent


v SL, 2008: RD 2, 44
v NZ, 2009: RD 66
v SL, 2010: RD 23, 7
v SA, 2010: RD 25, 2
v WI, 2011: RD 40, 112


It's clear that of RD, SRT, Laxman and Harbhajan, it is Harbhajan who has had the maximum contribution towards our last 5 away wins. Yet he is hardly given the credit he deserves.

[ganavk]

(disregarding BD)

v SL, 2008: Harby 6/102, 4/51 (demolition job)
v NZ, 2009: Harby 1/57, 6/63 (match-winning spell)
v SL, 2010: Harby did not play due to illness
v SA, 2010: Harby 4/10 (game changer), 2/70
v WI, 2011: Harby 70 priceless runs which helped secure the 1st innings lead.

Harbhajan had a stellar role to play in each of the 4 tests he played in the list above.
If you do a head to head comparison with Leady for these 4 tests:

v SL, 2008: Leady 39, 13
v NZ, 2009: Leady 30, -
v SA, 2010: Leady 38, 96
v WI, 2011: Leady 12, 0

Only one fifty in that list!
Hope this punctures the hype that Laxman is the biggest matchwinner we ever had. As his fan, this record is just not acceptable to me.

v SL, 2008: SRT 5, 31
v NZ, 2009: SRT 160
v SL, 2010: SRT 41, 54
v SA, 2010: SRT 13, 6
v WI, 2011: SRT absent


v SL, 2008: RD 2, 44
v NZ, 2009: RD 66
v SL, 2010: RD 23, 7
v SA, 2010: RD 25, 2
v WI, 2011: RD 40, 112


It's clear that of RD, SRT, Laxman and Harbhajan, it is Harbhajan who has had the maximum contribution towards our last 5 away wins. Yet he is hardly given the credit he deserves.

Bowlers always win matches and I think credit for these have been given but also note how many times we ended up drawing/losing a match in spite of the presence of our senior most bowler. How effective has he been when he is supposed to be running through teams ?

[ramshorns]

Let me put some perspective into all this. Dartbhajan over a period of 5 years plain sucked despite the sporadic contributions here and there which Ojha or Ashwin could have easily topped if persisted with as Darty has been.

Below is a link on how all the bowlers across the world did.  Pay attention to Darty's Average and S/R (the two most important metrics to judge how good a bowler is in Tests) and compare it to Swann another off spinner.  He does not even hold a candle.   And this is not one or two years. He has been mediocre for 5 years.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmin1=26+dec+2006;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

And for the record this is how batsman over the same span performed.  SRT, VVS and VS in the 50's and RD 45 over 5 years.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;orderby=runs;spanmin1=26+dec+2006;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Also speaking of match winning performances having a bowler like Darty caused India not finish quite a few games thus putting to waste stellar batting from bats like SRT, VVS etc.

Darty should consider lucky to play in so many Tests despite being trash for most part over 5 years.  I do not know anyone who has an iota of cricketing knowledge pimp for this overrated bowler.

[Blwe_torch]

Stats are for the arm-chair critics....but looking over at India's famous wins in the last decade...one cannot just deny Harbhajan's contributions there in. For all of Ashwin's good showing, he still remains part of the losers.

[ramshorns]

Stats are for the arm-chair critics....but looking over at India's famous wins in the last decade...one cannot just deny Harbhajan's contributions there in.

Yes stats are for arm-chair critics especially when they do not show the numbers to our liking.

For all of Ashwin's good showing, he still remains part of the losers.

A guy who just started is part of the losers.  A great statement mind you without even a reasonable sample size to judge a player.  But the good thing it is from Blwe.  So it is not surprising.

[ramshorns]

Stats are for the arm-chair critics....but looking over at India's famous wins in the last decade...one cannot just deny Harbhajan's contributions there in.

Since you brought the famous wins in the last decade let us see how Darty did in the games not mentioned on this thread.

Port Of Spain '02 - Mediocre performance.
Leeds'02 - Mediocre performance
Adelaide '03 - Not even in the team
Joh'Burg '06- Not even in the team
Multan' 04  - Not even in the team
Pindi' 04 - Not even in the team
Nottingham'07 - Not even in the team
Perth' 08- Not even in the team
Kingston'06 - Average performance

So the list shows in the most famous wins Darty was not even part of the team in a majority of the games.

And one more thing about the above mentioned games that we won is RD and VVS are the only two players to have participated in each one of them.  Goes on to show who the key men for the team were in the better part of the last decade when some of the most famous wins have come in Indian cricket history.

[achutank]

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." William Congreve, The Mourning Bride.

Cernunnos, now wait for the perfect storm.

how predictable 

[Libran]

Since when did Harbhajan and Laxman figure in a comparison list.

I always thought one was a bowler who also has a couple of centuries and the other batted with a couple of wickets (or no wickets !! I am not counting the ones he has taken away as souvenirs)

And what is  this RLY and NOT RLY Kolaveri ??!!!!!

[Cernunnos]

The discussion here is about away bowling [de-minnowfied].  In last 5 years amongst spinners:
Swann has avg. 32.2 s/r 68
Kumble has avg 36, s/r 67
Kaneria has avg 36, s/r 68
Harbhajan has avg. 37 s/r 74.
Vettori has avg 36, s/r 83
Harris has avg 42, s/r 81
Panesar has avg 45, s/r 89
Muralitharan has avg 61,  s/r 109

So his performance is worse than Swann but not by a whole lot. And comparable to the rest. Just like Cook, Prior, Bell and Strauss (taking examples only from England) average better than Laxman in away tests in last 5 years.

Anyway no one's making the claim that he's the world's best spinner, but that he has contributed most in our last 5 away wins.

[ramshorns]

Anyway no one's making the claim that he's the world's best spinner, but that he has contributed most in our last 5 away wins.

Yes by not playing in one of them as in Colombo in 2010 plus Durban 2010 the damage was done by ZK in the 1st and SS in the 2nd with each getting rid of most of the top 7 batsman in each inning.  So Durban 2010 bowling wise net net ZK and SS had more effect as bowlers than Darty. So let us not give credit to a Dart thrower when it should go to someone else. 

Speaking of not playing and India winning abroad in the better part of the last decade without Darty the below list clearly shows how insignificant he really is.

Adelaide '03 - Not even in the team
Joh'Burg '06- Not even in the team
Multan' 04  - Not even in the team
Pindi' 04 - Not even in the team
Nottingham'07 - Not even in the team
Perth' 08- Not even in the team

And finally time has caught up with him and was dropped from the side.  The proof is in the pudding.

[Cernunnos]

lol. India was playing 3 pacers in all these matches and Kumble was the default spinner, so Harbhajan had to sit out. If he was not given a chance what could he have done?

Let's see Kumble's performance in these

Adelaide '03 -
ball: 5/154, 1/58
bat: 12, 0

Multan' 04  -
ball: 2/100, 6/72
bat: -, -

Pindi' 04 -
ball: 1/24, 4/47
bat: 9, -

Joh'Burg '06-
ball: 2/2, 3/54
bat: 6, 1

Nottingham'07 - 
ball: 3/32, 3/104
bat: 30, -

Perth' 08-
ball: 2/42, 2/98
bat: 1, 0

Only 2 5fers.
1st 5-fer in Adelaide when Australia made a mountain of runs: 550.
2nd 5-fer when in Multan where Pakistan was staring at defeat after following on.
The 'Pindi 4 fer was mopping off the Pakistan tail when defeat was inevitable.
No contribution by the bat in any of these.
Don't mean to run Kumble down, but I see no evidence that Harby would have been worse had he played.

[ramshorns]

lol. India was playing 3 pacers in all these matches and Kumble was the default spinner, so Harbhajan had to sit out.

That right there shows what his value is to the team.  Disposable commodity.  Thanks for agreeing.

If he was not given a chance what could he have done?

Right choice to not include him because he is no good.

Don't mean to run Kumble down, but I see no evidence that Harby would have been worse had he played.

On the contrary Kumble preferred over Darty tells all one wants to know about him i.e. a player not even worthy of being in the XI let alone speculate on how well he would have done.

[Cernunnos]

lol again. Harby's 5/13 in Kingston 2006 is being called an "average performance". Very well. In that case we should call Laxman's performance in Durban 2010 an average performance as he didn't do much in the first innings.

[Cernunnos]

I don't think there is anything wrong in being the second choice to Kumble who is almost 10 years his senior. If there is only one slot due to pace-friendly friendly conditions, nothing much can be done.

When Kumble was injured, Harby was our lead spinner when India won it's first test out of the subcontinent in 15 years, which included a decent contribution with the bat. Incidentally Kumble was dropped for Harbhajan in what would turn out to be our first win in the WI in 25 years.

[ramshorns]

lol again. Harby's 5/13 in Kingston 2006 is being called an "average performance". Very well. In that case we should call Laxman's performance in Durban 2010 an average performance as he didn't do much in the first innings.

Ofcourse you can.  No one is stopping you.  But Consider this in that Durban Test VVS had the top two scores in the 40 batters that have batted and no one has from either team crossed 40 when he got 96.  That is why that knock was rated the best Test knock for 2010-2011 season despite being a non-century and also won him the MOM.  Darty's Kingston peformance in the overall context of the game to me is average.  Nothing more nothing less. 

In short VVS's Durban 2010 will be part of the all time great knocks played by an Indian all things considered while Darty's 5 fer will not be rated that highly.

P.S:- And talking of valuable knocks Vishy once rated his 4th inning 33 in that famous Oval win in 1971 as one of the knocks he remembers and values a lot.  When the reporter asked him why he said "It is not just the 100's or 50's that gives one the satisfaction but even the 30's or 40's in tough situations can when it contributes to team winning" and that 33 ensured we did not fold up and got us to the finish line.

[Cernunnos]

Someone will always be the highest scorer no matter what. Nathan Lyon top scored with 14 in Australia's 47. LOL. Laxman scored just 17 runs more than Harbhajan in the first innings, and we should praise him to high heavens for it? When you put a total of 200, every batsman is failure in my book (unless there is a standout performance). To put the failure behind and then bundle out the opposition for 131 with figures of 4-10, including Amla who had just scored 490 runs in two tests in India and also wiping off the tail which has been our perennial problem, that too on pace friendly conditions, that's the real game changer. Yes Laxman's fifty was good, but the momentum by then had swung in India's favour thanks to the bowlers especially Harby.

The same story in Harby's 5-fer in Kingston. After being bundled out for a paltry 200 by a mediocre bowling attack, against the grain of play with batsmen like the great Lara, Chanderpaul, Gayle and Sarwan, we ousted them for 100 primarily led by Harby's miraculous 5-13. We won that match despite the shameful performances of our batsmen (barring RD), for example Laxman scored 18 and 16 in that match. True, Harby didn't bowl that well in the second innings, but 269 was too much for West Indies to chase, and Harby's first innings bowling was the prime reason for it.

[RicePlateReddy]

Here are Harbhajan's bowling figures in the last 3 years in wins for India where he played. No filters - no away/home and no de-minnowfying (no deminnowfying means, arguably, a player's returns should be better against 'em so-called minnows).

I stopped at 3 years since he last played as that is a decent enough recency cutoff.

The timeline was not intentionally chosen to make a point. In fact, I am not making any point! Just wanted to see his returns in a recent enough period.


Sri Lanka          Galle           31 Jul 2008      6-102, 4-51
Australia          Mohali      17 Oct 2008      2-60, 3-36
Australia          Nagpur   6 Nov 2008      3-94, 4-64
England          Chennai   11 Dec 2008    1-91
New Zealand    Hamilton   18 Mar 2009    1-57, 6-63
Sri Lanka         Kanpur      24 Nov 2009    2-54, 3-98
Sri Lanka          Mumbai     2 Dec 2009      4-112, 2-80
Bangladesh      Dhaka   24 Jan 2010    1-48, 1-75
South Africa   Kolkata   14 Feb 2010    3-64, 5-59
Australia           Mohali   1 Oct 2010      3-114, 2-40
Australia           Bangalore   9 Oct 2010      4-148, 2-63
New Zealand   Nagpur   20 Nov 2010   1-59, 3-56
South Africa   Durban   26 Dec 2010   4-10, 2-70
West Indies   Kingston   20 Jun 2011    2-51, 1-54

Overall: 14 tests, 78 wickets for an average of 25.24 (career avg 32.2), 5W/I 3 times

[ramshorns]

Someone will always be the highest scorer no matter what. Nathan Lyon top scored with 14 in Australia's 47. LOL. Laxman scored just 17 runs more than Harbhajan in the first innings, and we should praise him to high heavens for it? When you put a total of 200, every batsman is failure in my book (unless there is a standout performance). To put the failure behind and then bundle out the opposition for 131 with figures of 4-10, including Amla who had just scored 490 runs in two tests in India and also wiping off the tail which has been our perennial problem, that too on pace friendly conditions, that's the real game changer. Yes Laxman's fifty was good, but the momentum by then had swung in India's favour thanks to the bowlers especially Harby.

No matter how you spin it Durban 2010 with be remembered for VVS's 96 and MOM.  Bowling wise it is ZK and SS that contributed more and no one really talks about Darty.  EOD.

The same story in Harby's 5-fer in Kingston. After being bundled out for a paltry 200 by a mediocre bowling attack, against the grain of play with batsmen like the great Lara, Chanderpaul, Gayle and Sarwan, we ousted them for 100 primarily led by Harby's miraculous 5-13. We won that match despite the shameful performances of our batsmen (barring RD), for example Laxman scored 18 and 16 in that match. True, Harby didn't bowl that well in the second innings, but 269 was too much for West Indies to chase, and Harby's first innings bowling was the prime reason for it.

No matter how you spin it again that match will be remembered for RD's  performance and MOM.  Darty's performance when you look at the overall bowling is ok and complimented the rest of the bowling to get 20 wickets and in my books average.  If it was miraculous he should have been MOM and hs is not even close.  EOD.

So while chest bumping over couple of average bowling efforts abroad the below list shows he is not even a while cog in the lienup for the Dartster he is.

Adelaide '03 - Not even in the team
Joh'Burg '06- Not even in the team
Multan' 04  - Not even in the team
Pindi' 04 - Not even in the team
Nottingham'07 - Not even in the team
Perth' 08- Not even in the team

Ofcourse the only common thing to all these wins is VVS and RD are the only players to play in all these famous wins going on to show who the important players were for almost 10 years.

VVS and RD.

[ramshorns]

And by the way since he royal boot from the team Darty's returns in the Ranji 2 wickets for 200 odd runs conceded so much so that he was on the verge of being dropped from the Punjab XI but he avoided that citing some injury immediately after getting dropped for the Aussie tour and thus chickening out.  Shows what a selfish player this guy is.  Dude now finds time to do some wrestling on TV while being injured to play cricket .

Anyhow it is a good alternative career for him given Ashwin and Ojha are much better Test spinners than him and they are here to stay.  Good bye Dartbhajan.

[Cernunnos]

No doubt Laxman has been an important performer, especially under Ganguly's captaincy. No one ever questions that. However there are some realities one needs to face up to. As Laxman's fan I would love to be proven wrong, but it's evident that Leady is past his prime.

Just expanding on wins outside the subcontinent since the Ganguly era:

v WI 2006: Leady 18, 16
v SA, 2006: Leady 28, 73
v Eng, 2007: Leady 54, -
v Aus, 2008: Leady 27, 79
v NZ, 2009: Leady 30, -
v SA, 2010: Leady 38, 96
v WI, 2011: Leady 12, 0

Sure there is the stray helpful knock, but not a single century, and an average of 39.

To put in context, subcontinental batsmen outside subcontinent in won tests:

Sanga: 4 tests, average 63
Vaas: 3 tests, average 62
Misbah: 3 tests, average 61
Azhar Ali: 4 tests, average 53
Dravid: 7 tests, average 48
Tendulkar: 5 tests, average 46
Ganguly: 3 tests, average 42


His outside subcontinent average in the last two years is a paltry 31. Surely alarm bells should ring now.

[ramshorns]

No doubt Laxman has been an important performer, especially under Ganguly's captaincy. No one ever questions that. However there are some realities one needs to face up to. As Laxman's fan I would love to be proven wrong, but it's evident that Leady is past his prime.

Just expanding on wins outside the subcontinent since the Ganguly era:

v WI 2006: Leady 18, 16
v SA, 2006: Leady 28, 73
v Eng, 2007: Leady 54, -
v Aus, 2008: Leady 27, 79
v NZ, 2009: Leady 30, -
v SA, 2010: Leady 38, 96
v WI, 2011: Leady 12, 0

Sure there is the stray helpful knock, but not a single century, and an average of 39.

Since Ganguly's name is brought up let me do this.  Just using the list above.  I do not even have to bring up Adelaide and Port of Spain into this.

v WI 2006: Leady 18, 16 -(*uly is dropped since he was not even good enough to be selected - Pathetic)
v SA, 2006: Leady 28, 73 - (VVS highest team scorer for the Test with 101 runs)
v Eng, 2007: Leady 54, - (Decent contribution from VVS)
v Aus, 2008: Leady 27, 79 - (VVS highest team scorer for the Test with 106 runs)
v NZ, 2009: Leady 30, - (*uly not even good enough to last that long- Pathetic)
v SA, 2010: Leady 38, 96 (VVS highest team scorer for the Test with 134 runs)
v WI, 2011: Leady 12, 0 - (*uly not even good enough to last that long - Pathetic)

Anytime a player in a list of 7 games that are won abroad spread across 6 years can top score in 3 games in a group of 6 batsman has to be great and VVS is just that and thanks for proving it.

To put in context, subcontinental batsmen outside subcontinent in won tests:

Sanga: 4 tests, average 63
Vaas: 3 tests, average 62
Misbah: 3 tests, average 61
Azhar Ali: 4 tests, average 53
Dravid: 7 tests, average 48
Tendulkar: 5 tests, average 46
Ganguly: 3 tests, average 42


His outside subcontinent average in the last two years is a paltry 31. Surely alarm bells should ring now.

Any time I see Ganguly's name mentioned in the same list as with the likes of VVS, SRT and RD is not worth reading and responding to.  I pretend to have not read the above section.

[Blwe_torch]

Fortunately for Bhajji....India's famous victories of the last decade have him in the thick of action.

[kban1]

Here are Harbhajan's bowling figures in the last 3 years in wins for India where he played. No filters - no away/home and no de-minnowfying (no deminnowfying means, arguably, a player's returns should be better against 'em so-called minnows).

I stopped at 3 years since he last played as that is a decent enough recency cutoff.

The timeline was not intentionally chosen to make a point. In fact, I am not making any point! Just wanted to see his returns in a recent enough period.


Sri Lanka          Galle           31 Jul 2008      6-102, 4-51
Australia          Mohali      17 Oct 2008      2-60, 3-36
Australia          Nagpur   6 Nov 2008      3-94, 4-64
England          Chennai   11 Dec 2008    1-91
New Zealand    Hamilton   18 Mar 2009    1-57, 6-63
Sri Lanka         Kanpur      24 Nov 2009    2-54, 3-98
Sri Lanka          Mumbai     2 Dec 2009      4-112, 2-80
Bangladesh      Dhaka   24 Jan 2010    1-48, 1-75
South Africa   Kolkata   14 Feb 2010    3-64, 5-59
Australia           Mohali   1 Oct 2010      3-114, 2-40
Australia           Bangalore   9 Oct 2010      4-148, 2-63
New Zealand   Nagpur   20 Nov 2010   1-59, 3-56
South Africa   Durban   26 Dec 2010   4-10, 2-70
West Indies   Kingston   20 Jun 2011    2-51, 1-54

Overall: 14 tests, 78 wickets for an average of 25.24 (career avg 32.2), 5W/I 3 times

5.5 wickets per test is actually a pretty impressive number

[feverpitch]

Here are Harbhajan's bowling figures in the last 3 years in wins for India where he played. No filters - no away/home and no de-minnowfying (no deminnowfying means, arguably, a player's returns should be better against 'em so-called minnows).

I stopped at 3 years since he last played as that is a decent enough recency cutoff.

The timeline was not intentionally chosen to make a point. In fact, I am not making any point! Just wanted to see his returns in a recent enough period.


Sri Lanka          Galle           31 Jul 2008      6-102, 4-51
Australia          Mohali      17 Oct 2008      2-60, 3-36
Australia          Nagpur   6 Nov 2008      3-94, 4-64
England          Chennai   11 Dec 2008    1-91
New Zealand    Hamilton   18 Mar 2009    1-57, 6-63
Sri Lanka         Kanpur      24 Nov 2009    2-54, 3-98
Sri Lanka          Mumbai     2 Dec 2009      4-112, 2-80
Bangladesh      Dhaka   24 Jan 2010    1-48, 1-75
South Africa   Kolkata   14 Feb 2010    3-64, 5-59
Australia           Mohali   1 Oct 2010      3-114, 2-40
Australia           Bangalore   9 Oct 2010      4-148, 2-63
New Zealand   Nagpur   20 Nov 2010   1-59, 3-56
South Africa   Durban   26 Dec 2010   4-10, 2-70
West Indies   Kingston   20 Jun 2011    2-51, 1-54

Overall: 14 tests, 78 wickets for an average of 25.24 (career avg 32.2), 5W/I 3 times

5.5 wickets per test is actually a pretty impressive number

No. Anything less than endorsement from Ram-Lakhan is necessarily to be trashed. Else, she won't do the mujra for you.

[ramshorns]

Here are Harbhajan's bowling figures in the last 3 years in wins for India where he played. No filters - no away/home and no de-minnowfying (no deminnowfying means, arguably, a player's returns should be better against 'em so-called minnows).

I stopped at 3 years since he last played as that is a decent enough recency cutoff.

The timeline was not intentionally chosen to make a point. In fact, I am not making any point! Just wanted to see his returns in a recent enough period.


Sri Lanka          Galle           31 Jul 2008      6-102, 4-51
Australia          Mohali      17 Oct 2008      2-60, 3-36
Australia          Nagpur   6 Nov 2008      3-94, 4-64
England          Chennai   11 Dec 2008    1-91
New Zealand    Hamilton   18 Mar 2009    1-57, 6-63
Sri Lanka         Kanpur      24 Nov 2009    2-54, 3-98
Sri Lanka          Mumbai     2 Dec 2009      4-112, 2-80
Bangladesh      Dhaka   24 Jan 2010    1-48, 1-75
South Africa   Kolkata   14 Feb 2010    3-64, 5-59
Australia           Mohali   1 Oct 2010      3-114, 2-40
Australia           Bangalore   9 Oct 2010      4-148, 2-63
New Zealand   Nagpur   20 Nov 2010   1-59, 3-56
South Africa   Durban   26 Dec 2010   4-10, 2-70
West Indies   Kingston   20 Jun 2011    2-51, 1-54

Overall: 14 tests, 78 wickets for an average of 25.24 (career avg 32.2), 5W/I 3 times

5.5 wickets per test is actually a pretty impressive number

No. Anything less than endorsement from Ram-Lakhan is necessarily to be trashed. Else, she won't do the mujra for you.

[ramshorns]

Here are Harbhajan's bowling figures in the last 3 years in wins for India where he played. No filters - no away/home and no de-minnowfying (no deminnowfying means, arguably, a player's returns should be better against 'em so-called minnows).

I stopped at 3 years since he last played as that is a decent enough recency cutoff.

The timeline was not intentionally chosen to make a point. In fact, I am not making any point! Just wanted to see his returns in a recent enough period.


Sri Lanka          Galle           31 Jul 2008      6-102, 4-51
Australia          Mohali      17 Oct 2008      2-60, 3-36
Australia          Nagpur   6 Nov 2008      3-94, 4-64
England          Chennai   11 Dec 2008    1-91
New Zealand    Hamilton   18 Mar 2009    1-57, 6-63
Sri Lanka         Kanpur      24 Nov 2009    2-54, 3-98
Sri Lanka          Mumbai     2 Dec 2009      4-112, 2-80
Bangladesh      Dhaka   24 Jan 2010    1-48, 1-75
South Africa   Kolkata   14 Feb 2010    3-64, 5-59
Australia           Mohali   1 Oct 2010      3-114, 2-40
Australia           Bangalore   9 Oct 2010      4-148, 2-63
New Zealand   Nagpur   20 Nov 2010   1-59, 3-56
South Africa   Durban   26 Dec 2010   4-10, 2-70
West Indies   Kingston   20 Jun 2011    2-51, 1-54

Overall: 14 tests, 78 wickets for an average of 25.24 (career avg 32.2), 5W/I 3 times

While it may be true his average is acceptable in wins the problem is during the same time India played 18 others matches when his returns are abysmal and unacceptable.  In those 18 Tests in which India either drawn or lost his average per wicket is 50 and less than 3 wickets a Test with a close to 100 s/r.  Below link shows the comparison with other Indian bowlers.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;result=2;result=3;result=4;spanmin1=01+jun+2008;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

It clearly shows while ZK(another automatic choice when fit) for example has a equal share in wins his average in losses and draws is very acceptable while Darty in 18 Tests was terrible.  Imagine what would have happened had Darty managed anywhere close to the low 30's average per wicket as ZK.  May be more wins?

That has exactly been my issue with Darty.  His fall off between wins to draws/losses is so huge that over a three - five year period he has been really bad overall for a player that is an automatic choice.

[ramshorns]

And by the way Darty's like for like replacement Ashwin in 4 Tests thus far has 26 wickets for an average of 24 and a 51 S/R. Clearly shows it was a folly to persist with Darty for so long without knowing what the alternative would do.

[RicePlateReddy]

Rams, I agree with you that Dartbhajan deserved to be dropped. We expect more for a leading strike bowler. Having said that, during wins, he seemed to have carried some weight.

I also like the dart moniker because, in my assessment, the guy chucks on occasion. That others round the world might also do so does not condone his action.

Finally, it is early days, but it is premature to say we have found an effective replacement for him. Our spin cupboard seems rather shallow.

[ramshorns]

Rams, I agree with you that Dartbhajan deserved to be dropped. We expect more for a leading strike bowler. Having said that, during wins, he seemed to have carried some weight.

KOP:- Indeed that is the case.

I also like the dart moniker because, in my assessment, the guy chucks on occasion. That others round the world might also do so does not condone his action.

LOL...

Finally, it is early days, but it is premature to say we have found an effective replacement for him. Our spin cupboard seems rather shallow.

Without a doubt.  I think the jury is still out on that.  But I do not see anything great on the horizon as yet with Ashwin or Ojha either.  But even if the alternates do not come up with anything great there is nothing much for us to feel bad about because Darty has been garbage for a while in Tests and it is time to move on from him.  The way I look at it is since this guy is bad anyway let us give some chances to others as they have been now with Ashwin/Ojha and let us see if we can unearth someone in couple of years.  Nothing wrong with that. It is a win-win situation for us dropping Dartbhajan.

[Cernunnos]

lol. By the same token, Laxman averages a pathetic 20 in lost matches in the last three years everywhere.

We've seen how his leady feet time and again digs us into a hole right in the start of the series, sometimes he makes up somewhat (like in Durban 2010) or sometimes we can never recover (Eng series 2011). Sometimes others make up for his leadiness (Dravid in Kingston 2011).

Fact is 31 average in the last 2 years outside Asia is pitiful. He better come up with something substantial today to stop these criticisms. As a fan, I'm hoping he will.

[ramshorns]

He better come up with something substantial today to stop these criticisms. As a fan, I'm hoping he will.

[Blwe_torch]

He better come up with something substantial today to stop these criticisms. As a fan, I'm hoping he will.

Another pathetic performance..............and very predictable, this time. This guy must give way to Rohit Sharma......................................................................atleast the newcomers must now get the chance, before it is too late.