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[Dayal Baba]

51% FDI in retail approved by cabinet. 30 million kirana store workers to start wearing walmart uniforms.

[sudzz]

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-right-centre/pawar-slapped-has-the-anti-politician-rage-gone-too-far/216908?pfrom=home-lateststories

[vincent]

This topic has been debated at length on this DG a few years ago.

I have a very strong opinion on this. Very same comments were made when India opened its automobile market for foreign FDI : Indian companies such as Hindustan,Premier etc will go bankrupt and we will sell our country to foreign car companies etc. See what has happened in terms of the quality and prices available and the jobs.

The 30 Million small shops have nothing to worry about because they are present at every street corner where as the big shops will be there may be one per city if at all. But people who have car and who want to buy more than a dozen different things at a time (from pots and pans to vegetables to meat and fruits) would prefer to go to the big shops.

But the issue is bigger than that. Where as the 30 Million retail shops will not suffer 300 million farmers will benefit and 1200 Million consumers will be happy with stable prices. Today the biggest problem with the food supply is that about 40% of the food produced gets rotten because of the lack of logistics and storage facilities. The farmers get therefore at best only 60% of their produces sold. Moreover they sell it to the middlemen who sell it to other middlemen and who sell it to the retail store who sells it to the consumers. The large Shops (such as WalMart,Tesco,Carrefour et) will create the supply chain which will eliminate these middlemen and ensure the farmers full benefit of their produce. Indeed, the only people who will be impacted are the middlemen who do not add value to the food-chain but are the main causes of inflation - less produce from the farmers, hoarding etc.

In any case,states should be allowed to prohibit some stores if they want to. If Mamata wants no international food store in Bengal she should be allowed to do so. Bengal can not go down further. After all, even in the US,WalMart is not allowed in the state of New York.

Moreover we already have Indian Large stores anyway : Big Bazaar,Reliance, More for You etc. I was surprised to see last month in my small city a huge Hyper Market of SPAR which sold everything - from TV/Computers to Vegetables and Meat. (SPAR is an International Hyper Market. How did they come there?). It was a pleasure to shop there. But I also bought from Kirana shops as well as from the local open markets. If you want fresh produce there is nothing like the open market.

I thought many years ago BJP itself mooted this idea of FDI in Retail. Now they are opposing it. Of course,they want inflation to continue so that they can win the next election based on voters discontent (Not very different from the Republican Policy in the US today).

[Dayal Baba]

you make a bad argument. india was lagging behind in automobile technology. india is not behind in retail/kirana technology. by your logic, why stop at retail? why not have fdi in governance, in other words fdr (foreign direct rule)?

you found it a pleasure to shop at spar. it must have been a pleasure for the mr. chang to smoke gangetic opium at the blue lotus. in 19th century british dumped indian hash into china. in 21st century usa(the "1%") will dump chinese trash into india. do we learn from history?

regarding certain political parties, views can always change. views within parties also vary. since 2004 the understanding of how these retail monsters decimate local business and effectively control prices is much better.

[vincent]

you make a bad argument. india was lagging behind in automobile technology. india is not behind in retail/kirana technology. by your logic, why stop at retail? why not have fdi in governance, in other words fdr (foreign direct rule)?

you found it a pleasure to shop at spar. it must have been a pleasure for the mr. chang to smoke gangetic opium at the blue lotus. in 19th century british dumped indian hash into china. in 21st century usa(the "1%") will dump chinese trash into india. do we learn from history?

regarding certain political parties, views can always change. views within parties also vary. since 2004 the understanding of how these retail monsters decimate local business and effectively control prices is much better.

My key point was India is light years behind the kirana/retail technology because of the prehistoric supply chain system which does require some REAL Technology to get to modern age and help those poor farmers (suppliers) and the helpless consumers.

[cricinfo]

you make a bad argument. india was lagging behind in automobile technology. india is not behind in retail/kirana technology. by your logic, why stop at retail? why not have fdi in governance, in other words fdr (foreign direct rule)?

you found it a pleasure to shop at spar. it must have been a pleasure for the mr. chang to smoke gangetic opium at the blue lotus. in 19th century british dumped indian hash into china. in 21st century usa(the "1%") will dump chinese trash into india. do we learn from history?

regarding certain political parties, views can always change. views within parties also vary. since 2004 the understanding of how these retail monsters decimate local business and effectively control prices is much better.

My key point was India is light years behind the kirana/retail technology because of the prehistoric supply chain system which does require some REAL Technology to get to modern age and help those poor farmers (suppliers) and the helpless consumers.

 I remember the big brouhaha around how privatization will screw up India earlier as well - it will happen now also. My thoughts are

1. Definitely middlemen will get eliminated
2. Whether farmers get a good deal or not will depend a lot of how Govt enforces policies around contracts - Whether  the big companies will enforce unfair contracts on the grass root level producers/farmers (e.g. Forcing them to sign 5 year contracts to be supplier at non negotiable rates)
3. SCM processes will definitely improve and bring competitiveness and possibly there will be more consistent quality available to the consumers
4. I am not worried about the street vendors in my local area - they will survive

[k-slice]

Dayalbaba

you cannot have protectionism for some sectors and not others. I have worked for one of the largest retail chains in india and trust me the entry of the Chain stores has had bugger-all effect on Kirana stores. Wal-mart will not be successful in india. why?

1. Indians are unlikely to go to a big-box store outside the city to shop for a month. Bigbazaar already has that concept and it has worked in some places. the places it works is where the immediate catchment shops there. people dont travel 20 miles in india to shop. We dont have the infrastructure to do that.

2. If they go the subiksha way: thats already failed and Walmarts biggest advantage is costs saved due to bulk purchase, Private labels and a super-efficient just in time supply chain. The subhiksha model, IE a small store disallows that to be reality.

3. The Kirana shop owner still commands a massive monopoly. 4% of the indian retail market is organized right now. Competition is a good thing. I worked for a retailier but we still got our monthly stuff from the Kirana guy who we have shopped with for decades. His ERP is his brain and if he doesnt have something he sends it over after getting it for you. Similarly, the logic that credit cards will cause migration to organised retail is retarded. Your Kirana store doesnt charge you interest if you delay payment. yes, he might be pissed but stil lgives you stuff (trust me, I have run up a 4,000 rupee tab n cigarettes in junior college and he was pissed but..).

4. Someone here mentioned the supply-chain issue: the supply chains of ABRL, Reliance, BB are still absolute steaming piles of doo-doo. Stores face stock-outs and nobody cares. why? because they are not threatened by competition. the Kirana guy laughs at them and they dont care. that might explain empty shelves in most stores. The entry of competitors of this size will cause our current chain retailiers to wake up and realize that you cant take customers for granted.

5. Margins: people think that org-retailiers have higher margins as they buy in bulk. partially true. but Kirana stores have also begun forming their own consortiums and are getting similar margins from companies like Unilever at times. Besides, the Kirana shop has feewe overheads. they dont need A-grade real-eastate, Aircons etc.

Dude, dont worry, this is the one thing that makes sense. let these guys come in and add some competitive pressure on everyone. I strongly believe that producers, farmers etc will gain from the innovation these new players will bring in. case in point: China.

[Dayal Baba]

you cannot have protectionism for some sectors and not others.

yes you can

Indians are unlikely to go to a big-box store outside the city to shop for a month.

when bulk prices will be walmart cheap, indians won't mind turning their house into a mini-godown.

The Kirana shop owner still commands a massive monopoly. 4% of the indian retail market is organized right now

short-sighted. same thing they said when these retail set shop in the us & uk. today they are all but wiped out. already bangalore and noida have 40% organised retail.

Competition is a good thing

you say 30 million kirana shops are not competing already?

I strongly believe that producers, farmers etc will gain from the innovation these new players will bring in. case in point: China

ha ha. china makes the walmart trash. more walmarts will only bring more business for chinese manufacturers.
we know how regulatory systems work in our country (2g, paid news media, etc.). walmart will gobble up the supply chain, and soon be the sole determinant of prices. small farmers will vanish and the remainder will be left to their mercy, grow with american seeds, american insecticides, etc.

[feverpitch]

My key point was India is light years behind the kirana/retail technology because of the prehistoric supply chain system which does require some REAL Technology to get to modern age and help those poor farmers (suppliers) and the helpless consumers.

Then why not use government interference, maybe in terms of new legislation, to improve the supply chain. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

[vincent]

My key point was India is light years behind the kirana/retail technology because of the prehistoric supply chain system which does require some REAL Technology to get to modern age and help those poor farmers (suppliers) and the helpless consumers.

Then why not use government interference, maybe in terms of new legislation, to improve the supply chain. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

True,but that would lead us back to centralized agrarian economy or non-economy. What the government could do is to encurage and support the formation of state level co-operatives,build infrastructure like roads,cold storage units,cold transportation trucks etc. The only such co-operative that is successful today is the one for milk in Gujarat.As you know for Grains the government tries to provide the supply chain. But then look at the amount of grain that is wasted in Punjab while rotting in the sun and rain outside. The entire state of Karnataka has only one cold storage unit near the airport in Bangalore. It is supposed to "help" exports. But by the time the produce gets to this cold storage unit it gets rotten already.

[feverpitch]

My key point was India is light years behind the kirana/retail technology because of the prehistoric supply chain system which does require some REAL Technology to get to modern age and help those poor farmers (suppliers) and the helpless consumers.

Then why not use government interference, maybe in terms of new legislation, to improve the supply chain. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

True,but that would lead us back to centralized agrarian economy or non-economy. What the government could do is to encurage and support the formation of state level co-operatives,build infrastructure like roads,cold storage units,cold transportation trucks etc. The only such co-operative that is successful today is the one for milk in Gujarat.As you know for Grains the government tries to provide the supply chain. But then look at the amount of grain that is wasted in Punjab while rotting in the sun and rain outside. The entire state of Karnataka has only one cold storage unit near the airport in Bangalore. It is supposed to "help" exports. But by the time the produce gets to this cold storage unit it gets rotten already.

My point exactly. If these issues were fixed, there would be no need for FDI, following your own analysis. So why not fix those? Or could it be, like during Russia's "liberalisation" overseen by Sacks/Lipton or the demise of Air India/Indian Airlines overseen by Praful Patel, the state infrastructure was deliberately allowed to rot, so that then it could be used as an excuse for a firesale, where friendly "entrepreneurs" could pick up public assets at cut-price, to then sell the services back to the public at a higher rate?

It has happened all over the world, you know. For a quick recap, read the guardian piece on "Dick" Branson and Virgin (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/21/richard-branson-northern-rock). I guess your argument is: so, that's proof it's what India should do. My argument is: Why can't we rather learn from the mistakes of others?

The argument is not about patriotism. After all, even the poor and middle classes in the US suffer from their government's similar sinister policies. It's about democracy being subverted to fill the coffers of the super rich.

Eventually, the people of this country have to realise that the option between Congress/UPA and the BJP/NDA is a false option. Both are populated almost exclusively by people with huge business interests, or ones who live-and-die to serve big business.

The Occupy movement in the West is a recognition of the fact. Unfortunately, not only are we Indians behind the (learning) curve, we are hell bent on blindly jumping into the same craters that others ahead of us have already dug for themselves. Perhaps we (or rather the influential classes in India) believe that this mimicry will somehow make us (them!) more 'merkin (learning by doing?). Maybe they don't know the etymology of the word "aping".

Some months ago, when the going was good, I heard talkingheads screeching on the tube on similar issues, about how India's growth rate disproved this and that sceptic*. I heard the same people cribbing about rising fuel prices sometime later, inflation after that, and about economic doldrums last week, before they hit upon the eureka idea of more liberalisation as the panacea... this time of essential items starting with food...

If you want more liberalisation, dunderheads, you WILL get rising fuel prices...

And in case you haven't noticed, the nations that find themselves deepest in this economic quagmire are ones that have been affected by the liberalisation bug the most, and want to get out of the bus now.

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*never quite got what they were railing against, since they, like academics they are not, they seemed to constantly erect strawmen to slay and fight windmills like the Don.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm reminded of the scene from the film "Black Cat, White Cat" by Emir Kusturica, where the crook Dadan says about corrupt Bulgarian border guards: "What you can't get done by money.... you get done by MORE money!"

Seems our "policy makers" are following the same strategy... what you can't get done by liberalisation... get done by more liberalisation... that's a reductionist strategy at best, and foolhardy one at worst... which leads me to think that actually thats not the case: all that Montek Singh, Chidambaram, Pranab, Murli Deora, Kamal Nath, Jairam Ramesh, Sharad Pawar, Praful Patel and the lost are interested in is clearing the way for easy takeover of the country by them and their friends, piecemeal... whether they be Bros Ambani or Mittal/ Jindal/ Mahindra/ Patel/ Motel...

Once again, the Western Union Money Transfer is at work!

[k-slice]

I never thought i would say this but i have to agree with Fever here.

The 30,000 Kirana shops today are not competing, they are surviving. If they had a goliath to slay, they could really combine as a force and improve things. As for companies like walmart owning the entire supply chain, you have GOT to be kidding. India has an insanely complex supply chain that cant be easily taken over. we have farmers who sell directly to the consumer in some places and farmers who have no idea what happens to their produce after it goes to the APMC yard. Liberalization in 1991 took us from being a command economy with a socialist agenda to a Pseudo mixed economy. I say Pseudo because we are still super-regulated. Air-India is selling off its routes to survive. Eventually, it will be shown as a dead airline and the likes of Mallya and Goyal will buy it off for 1/10th of what its worth. A solution here would be to have a JV with another airline but who would want a JV with an airline that has 800 odd employess per plane VS the industry norm of 300 or so?
There are 946 PSUs at the state level of which 500 odd are loss makers. please stop using my tax moneys to prop them up. allow them to be privatized or kill them off. The taxes you can earn from a company that is doing well are definitely going to help. Use that money to improve basic infrastructure for everyone, poor, rich, hindu, muslim, whatever.

[feverpitch]

in case any of u r interested, here're some recent posts of mine from threads on similar topics, elsewhere:

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php/topic,10238.msg331031.html#msg331031

[feverpitch]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy

The shocking truth about the crackdown on Occupy

The violent police assaults across the US are no coincidence. Occupy has touched the third rail of our political class's venality

Naomi Wolf

guardian.co.uk, Friday 25 November 2011


US citizens of all political persuasions are still reeling from images of unparallelled police brutality in a coordinated crackdown against peaceful OWS protesters in cities across the nation this past week. An elderly woman was pepper-sprayed in the face; the scene of unresisting, supine students at UC Davis being pepper-sprayed by phalanxes of riot police went viral online; images proliferated of young women – targeted seemingly for their gender – screaming, dragged by the hair by police in riot gear; and the pictures of a young man, stunned and bleeding profusely from the head, emerged in the record of the middle-of-the-night clearing of Zuccotti Park.

But just when Americans thought we had the picture – was this crazy police and mayoral overkill, on a municipal level, in many different cities? – the picture darkened. The National Union of Journalists and the Committee to Protect Journalists issued a Freedom of Information Act request to investigate possible federal involvement with law enforcement practices that appeared to target journalists. The New York Times reported that "New York cops have arrested, punched, whacked, shoved to the ground and tossed a barrier at reporters and photographers" covering protests. Reporters were asked by NYPD to raise their hands to prove they had credentials: when many dutifully did so, they were taken, upon threat of arrest, away from the story they were covering, and penned far from the site in which the news was unfolding. Other reporters wearing press passes were arrested and roughed up by cops, after being – falsely – informed by police that "It is illegal to take pictures on the sidewalk."

In New York, a state supreme court justice and a New York City council member were beaten up; in Berkeley, California, one of our greatest national poets, Robert Hass, was beaten with batons. The picture darkened still further when Wonkette and Washingtonsblog.com reported that the Mayor of Oakland acknowledged that the Department of Homeland Security had participated in an 18-city mayor conference call advising mayors on "how to suppress" Occupy protests.

To Europeans, the enormity of this breach may not be obvious at first. Our system of government prohibits the creation of a federalised police force, and forbids federal or militarised involvement in municipal peacekeeping.

I noticed that rightwing pundits and politicians on the TV shows on which I was appearing were all on-message against OWS. Journalist Chris Hayes reported on a leaked memo that revealed lobbyists vying for an $850,000 contract to smear Occupy. Message coordination of this kind is impossible without a full-court press at the top. This was clearly not simply a case of a freaked-out mayors', city-by-city municipal overreaction against mess in the parks and cranky campers. As the puzzle pieces fit together, they began to show coordination against OWS at the highest national levels.

Why this massive mobilisation against these not-yet-fully-articulated, unarmed, inchoate people? After all, protesters against the war in Iraq, Tea Party rallies and others have all proceeded without this coordinated crackdown. Is it really the camping? As I write, two hundred young people, with sleeping bags, suitcases and even folding chairs, are still camping out all night and day outside of NBC on public sidewalks – under the benevolent eye of an NYPD cop – awaiting Saturday Night Live tickets, so surely the camping is not the issue. I was still deeply puzzled as to why OWS, this hapless, hopeful band, would call out a violent federal response.

That is, until I found out what it was that OWS actually wanted.

The mainstream media was declaring continually "OWS has no message". Frustrated, I simply asked them. I began soliciting online "What is it you want?" answers from Occupy. In the first 15 minutes, I received 100 answers. These were truly eye-opening.

The No 1 agenda item: get the money out of politics. Most often cited was legislation to blunt the effect of the Citizens United ruling, which lets boundless sums enter the campaign process. No 2: reform the banking system to prevent fraud and manipulation, with the most frequent item being to restore the Glass-Steagall Act – the Depression-era law, done away with by President Clinton, that separates investment banks from commercial banks. This law would correct the conditions for the recent crisis, as investment banks could not take risks for profit that create kale derivatives out of thin air, and wipe out the commercial and savings banks.

No 3 was the most clarifying: draft laws against the little-known loophole that currently allows members of Congress to pass legislation affecting Delaware-based corporations in which they themselves are investors.

When I saw this list – and especially the last agenda item – the scales fell from my eyes. Of course, these unarmed people would be having the * kicked out of them.

For the terrible insight to take away from news that the Department of Homeland Security coordinated a violent crackdown is that the DHS does not freelance. The DHS cannot say, on its own initiative, "we are going after these scruffy hippies". Rather, DHS is answerable up a chain of command: first, to New York Representative Peter King, head of the House homeland security subcommittee, who naturally is influenced by his fellow congressmen and women's wishes and interests. And the DHS answers directly, above King, to the president (who was conveniently in Australia at the time).

In other words, for the DHS to be on a call with mayors, the logic of its chain of command and accountability implies that congressional overseers, with the blessing of the White House, told the DHS to authorise mayors to order their police forces – pumped up with millions of dollars of hardware and training from the DHS – to make war on peaceful citizens.

But wait: why on earth would Congress advise violent militarised reactions against its own peaceful constituents? The answer is straightforward: in recent years, members of Congress have started entering the system as members of the middle class (or upper middle class) – but they are leaving DC privy to vast personal wealth, as we see from the "scandal" of presidential contender Newt Gingrich's having been paid $1.8m for a few hours' "consulting" to special interests. The inflated fees to lawmakers who turn lobbyists are common knowledge, but the notion that congressmen and women are legislating their own companies' profitsis less widely known – and if the books were to be opened, they would surely reveal corruption on a Wall Street spectrum. Indeed, we do already know that congresspeople are massively profiting from trading on non-public information they have on companies about which they are legislating – a form of insider trading that sent Martha Stewart to jail.

Since Occupy is heavily surveilled and infiltrated, it is likely that the DHS and police informers are aware, before Occupy itself is, what its emerging agenda is going to look like. If legislating away lobbyists' privileges to earn boundless fees once they are close to the legislative process, reforming the banks so they can't suck money out of fake derivatives products, and, most critically, opening the books on a system that allowed members of Congress to profit personally – and immensely – from their own legislation, are two beats away from the grasp of an electorally organised Occupy movement … well, you will call out the troops on stopping that advance.

So, when you connect the dots, properly understood, what happened this week is the first battle in a civil war; a civil war in which, for now, only one side is choosing violence. It is a battle in which members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent. Occupy has touched the third rail: personal congressional profits streams. Even though they are, as yet, unaware of what the implications of their movement are, those threatened by the stirrings of their dreams of reform are not.

Sadly, Americans this week have come one step closer to being true brothers and sisters of the protesters in Tahrir Square. Like them, our own national leaders, who likely see their own personal wealth under threat from transparency and reform, are now making war upon us.

[feverpitch]

As I had said earlier, the issue is not about patriotism. It is about democracy having overstayed its purpose, is now being systematically subverted by the global cabal of big business and politicians to serve their own personal greed...

[feverpitch]

I fully expect the motley Fox News-types on this DG to maintain strict (radio) silence on this one...

[cricinfo]

I fully expect the motley Fox News-types on this DG to maintain strict (radio) silence on this one...
[/quote

did you pose any question for anyone ?

Anyway thanks for clarifying your views , I am sure you have perfect examples of such economies where it has worked out for good - if you can share the magic bullet model countries  - we will also be enlightened.

[feverpitch]

I fully expect the motley Fox News-types on this DG to maintain strict (radio) silence on this one...

did you pose any question for anyone ?

Anyway thanks for clarifying your views , I am sure you have perfect examples of such economies where it has worked out for good - if you can share the magic bullet model countries  - we will also be enlightened.

Are you one of the Fox News-types?

Anyway, it's not necessary that there be a question, is there? I've posted a rebuttal, and that should be good enough to get a response, if there is one.

What has worked for good? Firesale of property made with taxpayers money to friendly businessmen by crooked politicos? Sorry, I don't think I can help you there. I was hoping you can.

[cricinfo]

I fully expect the motley Fox News-types on this DG to maintain strict (radio) silence on this one...

did you pose any question for anyone ?

Anyway thanks for clarifying your views , I am sure you have perfect examples of such economies where it has worked out for good - if you can share the magic bullet model countries  - we will also be enlightened.

Are you one of the Fox News-types?

Anyway, it's not necessary that there be a question, is there? I've posted a rebuttal, and that should be good enough to get a response, if there is one.

What has worked for good? Firesale of property made with taxpayers money to friendly businessmen by crooked politicos? Sorry, I don't think I can help you there. I was hoping you can.

I dont personally think it is fair to label people like "fox news type" , in the same token someone might label you "msnbc type" and i am certain that you will not appreciate that

I follow both these channels and find them extremely biased towards particular radical views - and that is what is the problem. I do not understand why there is always one side has to be wrong for the other side to be right? There is always path of moderation in dealing with problems - while I appreciate your point of view but I feel you are driven more by hardcore leftist ideology and nothing else. It is okay to sermon on theory to some extent but proof is in the pudding , right? So I will like to know where have you seen the theories you have outlined being implemented and working?
In my mind, I always give example of USA of 1960/1970s - there was balance of socialist programs, govt spending and encouragement for private entrepreneurship and capitalism in general - liberals and conservatives worked with certain degree objective outlook.

W.r.t specific point being discussed - I do not see any harm in the specific policy of allowing FDI , I do see problem in enforcing policy and corruption in general in India. So any program with any kind of socialist or capitalist leaning is bound to get skewed in favor of corrupt/powerful and opportunistic people no matter how meritorious the program itself is. That is the reason, I do not see a point if criticizing a specific initiative in isolation, I do not blindly support a program because it is "socialist(Spread the wealth)/capitalist(Rich becomes Richer)" in nature. I support programs based on their merit and i feel we will all be better off if we do that or else every aspect of our life will be like that of current US Congress - in Limbo!
 

[Cover Point]

It's typical of these damn commies to complain about anything and everything. Of course the good question asked by cricinfo was completely ignored by the said damn commie. So can the said damn commie give shining examples of commistan being successful?

We have seen commies have screwed up their people anywhere they have ruled. Of course these very same commies will forget how a socialist india would give no opportunities to it's educated masses and thus cause a huge brain dran and a new open india despite its immense corruption ( not new) has all but stopped that brain drain and given a lot more people to  enjoy a middle class existence.

Of course these commies don't want progress. They want power to be consolidated within a few commie hands. Screw the people. Wo cares about them.

[feverpitch]

I dont personally think it is fair to label people like "fox news type" , in the same token someone might label you "msnbc type" and i am certain that you will not appreciate that

Agreed on the first part. Disagree on the second. I dare say no one will call me THAT! As for you, go back to my earlier post... the barb wasn't exactly meant for you (in my mind at least) until you jumped in...

Incidentally, is msnbc supposed to be "leftist". That's what it seems from the way you've phrased your post. If that's the case, I guess we're truly living in different worlds. Please tell me you live in 'Merica...

I follow both these channels and find them extremely biased towards particular radical views - and that is what is the problem. I do not understand why there is always one side has to be wrong for the other side to be right? There is always path of moderation in dealing with problems - while I appreciate your point of view but I feel you are driven more by hardcore leftist ideology and nothing else. It is okay to sermon on theory to some extent but proof is in the pudding , right? So I will like to know where have you seen the theories you have outlined being implemented and working?

How are my arguments, bolstered with countless examples (just check my prior posts, CAREFULLY), "driven more by hardcore leftist ideology and nothing else"?

As for theories, which ones are you referring to?

In my mind, I always give example of USA of 1960/1970s - there was balance of socialist programs, govt spending and encouragement for private entrepreneurship and capitalism in general - liberals and conservatives worked with certain degree objective outlook.

I daren't say that a liberalising India is trying to follow the US New Deal ideal that you seem to be referring to (you may have got the decades a bit muddled up, I guess). In fact, whether it be economic policy, or state-sponsored corruption, it is more akin to the US of the early/mid 19th century, the century of the carpetbaggers and robber barons. So, wrong analogy to use here, I'd say.

W.r.t specific point being discussed - I do not see any harm in the specific policy of allowing FDI , I do see problem in enforcing policy and corruption in general in India. So any program with any kind of socialist or capitalist leaning is bound to get skewed in favor of corrupt/powerful and opportunistic people no matter how meritorious the program itself is. That is the reason, I do not see a point if criticizing a specific initiative in isolation, I do not blindly support a program because it is "socialist(Spread the wealth)/capitalist(Rich becomes Richer)" in nature. I support programs based on their merit and i feel we will all be better off if we do that or else every aspect of our life will be like that of current US Congress - in Limbo!

Would you recommend a round peg for a square hole?

Would you recommend policies that expect voluntary, morally astute action as a given, that cannot be overseen by a already inefficient and corrupt executive/judiciary—for any country, forget about a country that has a historic tryst with corruption as India? So who is mouthing airy-fairy theories about the benefits of such-and-such economic system here?

And where pray did you see me mouthing theory blindly?

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Finally, the effect of US-style capitalism on the world at large and the country of origin, today, is for all to see. When the going was good (ie when it could throw its economic weight around the world), it had a strong social contract/new deal to keep the home constituency happy. When the going started getting bad (ie, when it realised it had sold its derriere to China), look at how it started treating its own—pepperspray for peaceful UC Davis student protesters, and bailouts and quadrupled salaries for the top management for sending their respective companies into bankruptcy.

[Cover Point]

still awaiting an answer from the damn commies ..... ofcourse they will be hiding on the pretext of going on yet another strike.

So I will ask one more question. These said commies have supported a socialist India that spends money on all these public sectors including likes of AIR India which eats (read loses) Rs 25 crores a DAY! but they would not want it to be privatized because it gives the unions and the likes a lot of free money.

[feverpitch]

the funniest part of different handles managed by the same person, is that sooner of later, language will betray the owner.

years ago, we had this tangri kabab on this DG who would make statements occasionally that were, in her mind, questions.

today, the same perpetually palpitating princess, in the guise of a lucknowi tawaif, still does the same...

you can take sarson-da-saag out of punjab and into devon street, but you cant take punjab out of the sarson-da-saag...

[Dayal Baba]

still awaiting an answer from the damn commies ..... ofcourse they will be hiding on the pretext of going on yet another strike.

So I will ask one more question. These said commies have supported a socialist India that spends money on all these public sectors including likes of AIR India which eats (read loses) Rs 25 crores a DAY! but they would not want it to be privatized because it gives the unions and the likes a lot of free money.

azzu forced batsmen to throw their wicket, and you criticize their batting average.

[Dayal Baba]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

[Cover Point]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Competition is good for the consumer. Absolutely. If the Indian colas were good and efficient they would have competed better against Coca Cola. Why allow local monopolies despite the fact that they keep producing poorer stuff?

If Walmart can produce a better and cheaper cauliflower then it is good.

[k-slice]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Dude why did indian cola companies sell out? nobody had stopped them from competing. Take the Sosyo example. I know for a fact that despite being offered a few hundred crores the owners decided not to sell their brand to Coke. Good for them. If you are scared of competition and expect the government to defend you, prop you up using MY tax money to allow you to produce a product that has a diminishing demand, you have another thing coming. And who says indian companies cannot compete with global giants? You have brands like TATA, Wipro etc all takeing on global competitors in unregulated industries and WINNING!! come on dayal. Give our industries, their workers and their management some credit. let them compete on a global stage and PROVE their worth. I am sure it would be to our benefit.

Secondly, your point about "wal-Mart" cauliflower is silly. Allowing FDI in retail is not going to cause any such issues. I have already explained why large retailiers will have to change their basic business models to succeed. On the whole, if a farmer now has a walmart, a reliance, a Birla, a Tata, a godrej, a Tesco and a Kirana Coopertive to sell to, he is likely to get a better price. No this wont drive up inflation, a common and stupid response by most folk. The end consumer will get a better price in reality as will the producer.
If we dont compete we will have the "Kuein ka Mendak" or the frog in a well crap happen to us. Unfortunately the well is now surrounded by a lake. time to get out and show the world that Indiian industries have been protected from competition as a forced strategy not by choice and given a chance we are capable of holding our own against the best of the best.

[feverpitch]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Dude why did indian cola companies sell out? nobody had stopped them from competing. Take the Sosyo example. I know for a fact that despite being offered a few hundred crores the owners decided not to sell their brand to Coke. Good for them. If you are scared of competition and expect the government to defend you, prop you up using MY tax money to allow you to produce a product that has a diminishing demand, you have another thing coming.

Thums up & Campa Cola sold out because coke used their bigger resources to undercut them for years, as well as use their considerable 'leverage' to ensure no thums up/campa ad appeared anywhere for several years, and suppliers dump them in favour of coke. they tried the same against pepsi, but it was a fight between two behemoths resulting in a stalemate. it is an age old strategy. TOI used it against Asian Age, for example. all this is well documented. if i remember correctly, it was even reported in the press somewhere.

whhich brings us to my original point: in a country where corruption is bound to queer the pitch, what hope have you in bringing in bigger foreign players, who, while bringing in a bigger kitty, unfortunately do not also carry the same sized moral compass as seems to be implicitly implied.

[feverpitch]

If at all there is any rebuttal of my arguments here, I'm fully expecting the old strategies to come up:

1. the canard that they are "theoretical"... (as if theory is poison; in any case, I can't even recall when last I took recourse to any theory, other than provide a point of view that is not spoon-fed in business schools as gospel truth)
2.  the canard that they are communist... (same as above)
3. luddite... (because ad hominem attacks are cheap ways of not engaging in a discourse)
4. ask for examples because (s)he can't google... (rather, didn't care to read the earlier posts carefully)
5. change the topic...

having said that, I'd be glad if anyone does provide strong, logical rebuttals. that of course naturally excludes the perpetually palpitating princess and her alter ego...

[Dayal Baba]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Competition is good for the consumer. Absolutely. If the Indian colas were good and efficient they would have competed better against Coca Cola. Why allow local monopolies despite the fact that they keep producing poorer stuff?

If Walmart can produce a better and cheaper cauliflower then it is good.

if a steroid boosted wrestler is pitted against a handicapped man, then this sort of "competition" will always be good for the former!

[achutank]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Dude why did indian cola companies sell out? nobody had stopped them from competing. Take the Sosyo example. I know for a fact that despite being offered a few hundred crores the owners decided not to sell their brand to Coke. Good for them. If you are scared of competition and expect the government to defend you, prop you up using MY tax money to allow you to produce a product that has a diminishing demand, you have another thing coming.

Thums up & Campa Cola sold out because coke used their bigger resources to undercut them for years, as well as use their considerable 'leverage' to ensure no thums up/campa ad appeared anywhere for several years, and suppliers dump them in favour of coke. they tried the same against pepsi, but it was a fight between two behemoths resulting in a stalemate. it is an age old strategy. TOI used it against Asian Age, for example. all this is well documented. if i remember correctly, it was even reported in the press somewhere.

whhich brings us to my original point: in a country where corruption is bound to queer the pitch, what hope have you in bringing in bigger foreign players, who, while bringing in a bigger kitty, unfortunately do not also carry the same sized moral compass as seems to be implicitly implied.

they tried but they could not kill thumps up as a brand.

the sad thing is really how they killed mangola my favourite drink, but try their level best they could not kill lemonade

more power to bava brands i say

[Dayal Baba]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Dude why did indian cola companies sell out? nobody had stopped them from competing. Take the Sosyo example. I know for a fact that despite being offered a few hundred crores the owners decided not to sell their brand to Coke. Good for them. If you are scared of competition and expect the government to defend you, prop you up using MY tax money to allow you to produce a product that has a diminishing demand, you have another thing coming. And who says indian companies cannot compete with global giants? You have brands like TATA, Wipro etc all takeing on global competitors in unregulated industries and WINNING!! come on dayal. Give our industries, their workers and their management some credit. let them compete on a global stage and PROVE their worth. I am sure it would be to our benefit.

Secondly, your point about "wal-Mart" cauliflower is silly. Allowing FDI in retail is not going to cause any such issues. I have already explained why large retailiers will have to change their basic business models to succeed. On the whole, if a farmer now has a walmart, a reliance, a Birla, a Tata, a godrej, a Tesco and a Kirana Coopertive to sell to, he is likely to get a better price. No this wont drive up inflation, a common and stupid response by most folk. The end consumer will get a better price in reality as will the producer.
If we dont compete we will have the "Kuein ka Mendak" or the frog in a well crap happen to us. Unfortunately the well is now surrounded by a lake. time to get out and show the world that Indiian industries have been protected from competition as a forced strategy not by choice and given a chance we are capable of holding our own against the best of the best.

do not compare apples and oranges. please read up a bit more on how walmart rids the competition, seizes the market, and in the long run will dictate terms to farmers. there are a lot of studies out there.
at one level we are all kuein ka mendak. have you been to jupiter or neptune? if not, what do you know of the solar system? do not put all your eggs in the basket of "competition" and "technology", they can be double edged swords. sometimes it is advisable to spend time in the kuein and know it better.

[k-slice]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Dude why did indian cola companies sell out? nobody had stopped them from competing. Take the Sosyo example. I know for a fact that despite being offered a few hundred crores the owners decided not to sell their brand to Coke. Good for them. If you are scared of competition and expect the government to defend you, prop you up using MY tax money to allow you to produce a product that has a diminishing demand, you have another thing coming. And who says indian companies cannot compete with global giants? You have brands like TATA, Wipro etc all takeing on global competitors in unregulated industries and WINNING!! come on dayal. Give our industries, their workers and their management some credit. let them compete on a global stage and PROVE their worth. I am sure it would be to our benefit.

Secondly, your point about "wal-Mart" cauliflower is silly. Allowing FDI in retail is not going to cause any such issues. I have already explained why large retailiers will have to change their basic business models to succeed. On the whole, if a farmer now has a walmart, a reliance, a Birla, a Tata, a godrej, a Tesco and a Kirana Coopertive to sell to, he is likely to get a better price. No this wont drive up inflation, a common and stupid response by most folk. The end consumer will get a better price in reality as will the producer.
If we dont compete we will have the "Kuein ka Mendak" or the frog in a well crap happen to us. Unfortunately the well is now surrounded by a lake. time to get out and show the world that Indiian industries have been protected from competition as a forced strategy not by choice and given a chance we are capable of holding our own against the best of the best.

do not compare apples and oranges. please read up a bit more on how walmart rids the competition, seizes the market, and in the long run will dictate terms to farmers. there are a lot of studies out there.
at one level we are all kuein ka mendak. have you been to jupiter or neptune? if not, what do you know of the solar system? do not put all your eggs in the basket of "competition" and "technology", they can be double edged swords. sometimes it is advisable to spend time in the kuein and know it better.

i was actually thinking of th Kuan as India and the lake as the world.
Please Explain Walmarts massive failure in Germany or even NYC for that matter.

[k-slice]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Dude why did indian cola companies sell out? nobody had stopped them from competing. Take the Sosyo example. I know for a fact that despite being offered a few hundred crores the owners decided not to sell their brand to Coke. Good for them. If you are scared of competition and expect the government to defend you, prop you up using MY tax money to allow you to produce a product that has a diminishing demand, you have another thing coming.

Thums up & Campa Cola sold out because coke used their bigger resources to undercut them for years, as well as use their considerable 'leverage' to ensure no thums up/campa ad appeared anywhere for several years, and suppliers dump them in favour of coke. they tried the same against pepsi, but it was a fight between two behemoths resulting in a stalemate. it is an age old strategy. TOI used it against Asian Age, for example. all this is well documented. if i remember correctly, it was even reported in the press somewhere.

whhich brings us to my original point: in a country where corruption is bound to queer the pitch, what hope have you in bringing in bigger foreign players, who, while bringing in a bigger kitty, unfortunately do not also carry the same sized moral compass as seems to be implicitly implied.

they tried but they could not kill thumps up as a brand.

the sad thing is really how they killed mangola my favourite drink, but try their level best they could not kill lemonade

more power to bava brands i say

Frams and Ardeshirs in pune!! Frams still delivers using a bullock cart! best raspeberry and ice=cream soda in town!

[feverpitch]

they tried but they could not kill thumps up as a brand.

If you can't beat it, buy it. This is what coke did with thums up. first they killed thums up's distribution using means most foul, then they bought up the company at a cut-price in order to kill the brand completely, then they found that despite their best efforts, it had a far larger loyal following than all of coke's 'merkin products put together, so finally they relaunched it.

in case of campa, they simply drove charanjit singh out of the market. you can still see the derelict campa factory near CP in Delhi.

As for other favourites: gold spot, duke, duchess, thrill, 777, etc... they were just trampled over by the two elephants—pepsi and coke.

incidentally, when pepsi first came to india in 1956, it died a natural death in the free market of its time. so this time, they came with an ironclad strategy, which had nothing official about it, in so far as the ideal of lassiez faire is concerned.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What I find funny (and sometimes a bit irritating) is how more or less the same topics are raised by the same people, using the same arguments, once in every few months on this DG. Every time someone gives a strong rebuttal, they disappear from the thread with a parting post about how their argument is based on their "beliefs". Only to appear few months down the line with the same "reasoning" on another thread.

Guys, I get it! Your indoctrination is too great for you to abandon ship right now, or any time ever. Good for you. Just don't try to pass it off as "reason".

[feverpitch]

Frams and Ardeshirs in pune!! Frams still delivers using a bullock cart! best raspeberry and ice=cream soda in town!

Bijoligrill Ice Cream Soda in Kolkata. But very difficult to find nowadays. Very difficult.

[feverpitch]

Please Explain Walmarts massive failure in Germany or even NYC for that matter.

I guess I can try explain New York. Correct me for facts, but eventually I believe the state (or city?) voted to keep Walmart out, right? And unions opposed, right?

Now comes the question, why? Let me try to think that through:

NY as the de-facto centre of the world, has a very well informed, liberal, well-off, opinionated population, who can be expected to take a long(er) term, enlightened view on things. They also have strong unions, who, unlike their country cousins in godforsaken corners of the midwest or south, can bring to bear the weight and glare of the media and politicians in case the government decided to act tough (use police force, etc), which, while may not ensure their immediate safety, can surely ensure constant negative publicity unlike similar incidents in the backwaters.

[Dayal Baba]

"competition is good"!

competition saw the disappearance of indian colas which are today "a product of coca-cola company"

tomorrow's ad: "buy cauliflower, a product of walmart"

competition is good!

Dude why did indian cola companies sell out? nobody had stopped them from competing. Take the Sosyo example. I know for a fact that despite being offered a few hundred crores the owners decided not to sell their brand to Coke. Good for them. If you are scared of competition and expect the government to defend you, prop you up using MY tax money to allow you to produce a product that has a diminishing demand, you have another thing coming. And who says indian companies cannot compete with global giants? You have brands like TATA, Wipro etc all takeing on global competitors in unregulated industries and WINNING!! come on dayal. Give our industries, their workers and their management some credit. let them compete on a global stage and PROVE their worth. I am sure it would be to our benefit.

Secondly, your point about "wal-Mart" cauliflower is silly. Allowing FDI in retail is not going to cause any such issues. I have already explained why large retailiers will have to change their basic business models to succeed. On the whole, if a farmer now has a walmart, a reliance, a Birla, a Tata, a godrej, a Tesco and a Kirana Coopertive to sell to, he is likely to get a better price. No this wont drive up inflation, a common and stupid response by most folk. The end consumer will get a better price in reality as will the producer.
If we dont compete we will have the "Kuein ka Mendak" or the frog in a well crap happen to us. Unfortunately the well is now surrounded by a lake. time to get out and show the world that Indiian industries have been protected from competition as a forced strategy not by choice and given a chance we are capable of holding our own against the best of the best.

do not compare apples and oranges. please read up a bit more on how walmart rids the competition, seizes the market, and in the long run will dictate terms to farmers. there are a lot of studies out there.
at one level we are all kuein ka mendak. have you been to jupiter or neptune? if not, what do you know of the solar system? do not put all your eggs in the basket of "competition" and "technology", they can be double edged swords. sometimes it is advisable to spend time in the kuein and know it better.

i was actually thinking of th Kuan as India and the lake as the world.
Please Explain Walmarts massive failure in Germany or even NYC for that matter.

about germany: strict laws are enacted and implemented. labour can't be discarded so easily. operating hours are restricted. germans more aware and nationalistic.
india does not have strict regulation. it will be a free ride for them as they bribe their way through.

[k-slice]

Well In NYC walmart operates walgreens chains and some Sams Club outlets but tend to do poorly there. The reason IMO? Corner shops and bodegas that have been around for ages and enjoy loyalty. Similar to indian cities, real estate, or the lack there off is an issue as well.

Germany:http://www.iwim.uni-bremen.de/publikationen/pdf/w024.pdf

they failed because of the EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE GERMAN MARKET!! another big reason was a flawed strategy in general. So, no, the german laws were not responsible, it was the fact that local players out gunned them. the same will happen in india.

[vincent]

The discussion does not have to be specifically around WalMart. It has to be around organized Retail including FDI.

If we want to remain in the dark ages and not develop then we should continue with status quo. The dark ages would have continued in the case of IT industry,Automobiles,Telecom etc if we had decided for status quo.

In India the organized Retail is about 4% where as in other BRIC countries it is between 20 to 40%. The devlopped nations (with or without WalMart) have it around 80%. The Asian emerging countries like Malayasia and Thiland have it more than 40%.

The main beneficiaries of the status quo are the middlemen who do not add any value to the economy. The farmers get 20Rs per Unit while the consumer pays 100 thanks to the several layers of middlemen.The farmers will not lose out with organized Retail,just the contrary.The FDI part will be smaller but it will add it terms of know-how and large scale backward integration.