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[teamindia]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-Against-Corruption-Anna-Hazare-arrested-by-Delhi-Police-ahead-of-fast/articleshow/9618768.cms

NEW DELHI: Anna Hazare courted arrest after being detained by Delhi Police at his residence in Mayur Vihar ahead of his indefinite fast on Tuesday.

Senior officers of Delhi Police reached Anna Hazare's flat early in the morning and informed him that he could not leave his home. Hundreds of supporters had gathered outside the activist's house waving flags.

Anna in his addresses to the nation before his arrest asked his supporters not to stop the agitation. He urged the protesters to remain peaceful.

Arvind Kejriwal, Kiran Bedi and Manish Sisodia were also taken into preventive custody by the Delhi Police.

"This is exactly what happened during emergency. Emergency has revisited the country. This detention is unconstitutional and undemocratic," said Kiran Bedi while courting arrest at Raj Ghat.

Late Monday, at least 50 supporters of Anna Hazare were detained at Jai Prakash Narain Park, the venue of the anti-graft crusader's planned fast, for defying prohibitory orders clamped in the area.

The supporters of the *hian were taken in a police bus to a nearby police station, police said.

[22 Yards]

All of us knew what was coming. Definitely, NOT A BLACK DAY for democracy though (no what paper the toilet paper thinks).
Its just a regular day.
Now that the police had arrested Hazare, which is the right thing to do, the govt especially the police force should operate in a controlled manner without going overboard.

[Blwe_torch]

Why is TOI whipping up this mass-frenzy?....India protests!..and so on and so forth !!! 
I am myself not very sure of Anna ji's agenda, as of now.......and how he is going to operate and how the Lokpal team itself will be elected, etc.
I hope, they get their scope and agenda properly defined instead of shooting for the stars.
Most of these ppl exchanging sms and emails are generally ignorant of the above...

[dhruvdeepak]

i must say this term 'preventive arrest' is new to me.

I'm not the biggest Anna (Hazare) fan but i love the precedent here.

Is it in Minority Report or Vanilla Sky (some tom cruise movie for sure) where people were taken to jail for crimes they commit in the future?

[pieterSAN]

i must say this term 'preventive arrest' is new to me.

I'm not the biggest Anna (Hazare) fan but i love the precedent here.

Is it in Minority Report or Vanilla Sky (some tom cruise movie for sure) where people were taken to jail for crimes they commit in the future?

Minority Report.

[WicketView]

i must say this term 'preventive arrest' is new to me.

I'm not the biggest Anna (Hazare) fan but i love the precedent here.

Is it in Minority Report or Vanilla Sky (some tom cruise movie for sure) where people were taken to jail for crimes they commit in the future?

It is quite different. In minority report, there was some Sci Fi way of figuring out when a person would commit a crime. Here Anna announced that he would be doing something that they wanted to prevent.  The point of course is Hazare did not want to
commit a crime, but the govt was afraid that it would lead to a problem.

I am not trying to criticize or support the actions (I really need to read up on the current flare up), but I was under the (mis?) impression that this preventive custody is not totally new, though rare.  Can someone clarify if this is a first (no emergency examples please)? What was the method of arresting SP Mukherjee? Any recent examples?

[vincent]

Whatever the case may be for the arrest, I do think that Anna Hazare has gone overboard in this second phase of his movement. He calls himself a *hian and whatever he does "a freedom struggle". This unfortunately smacks of a publicity stunt.

*hi would never have used fast as a blackmailing weapon against the government. He used it only with his own people to help them come to reason. In addition, he was always ready to negotiate and compromise (some cynics may say he compromised too much). But Anna's position of "It is MY way or no way" is unacceptable. What has democracy to do with all this?

[Blwe_torch]

Theoretically, everyone will be against corruption.
But, AH is trying to skirt the parliament and even the constitution.......to create a parallel channel, which is not necessary.
I am wondering, why doesn't he re-structure the CVC, though proper channel..........what is the need of this Lokpal?

[LosingNow]

what is the need of this Lokpal?

Agree..

It is naive to assume that a Lokpal (unelected body of supposedly un-corruptible individuals) would solve all the ills. Power, without checks and balances, has always led to "bad stuff"

[vincent]

There is a significant need for something like Lokpal. In Karnataka, Lokayukta has done a great job under justice Hegde. He has indicted more than 1500 cases of corruption in his 4 years of term ranging from very small to very big. None of these were carried forward by the Government/Judiciary. The people indicted, mostly goverment bureaucrats, are still in their jobs. Only the last major case against the CM got national attention,mainly due to the Lkopal debate, and the cM had to resign. Lokpal needs to be part of Judiciary (at national level) and there has to be rules how to deal with their indictment. Then only there will be some success against corruption.

[Dayal Baba]

what is the need of this Lokpal?

Agree..

It is naive to assume that a Lokpal (unelected body of supposedly un-corruptible individuals) would solve all the ills. Power, without checks and balances, has always led to "bad stuff"

no fan of lokpala. but talking of checks and balances, can we be in worse situation than unaccountable bodies like nac (a.k.a the dynasty's hand-picked taliban) making bills for this govt under the nose of an unelected rubber-stamp pm? look at harsh mander, he's on every subcommitte of the nac (http://nac.nic.in/subgroup.htm). he's also on disgraced isi man's ghulam nabi fai's "justice foundation": http://www.justicefoundation.co.uk/welcomeDetail.php

do you think mander's isi links are a mere coincidence?

if all this agitation leads to the ruling dynasty's downfall, it is worth it.

[LosingNow]

what is the need of this Lokpal?

Agree..

It is naive to assume that a Lokpal (unelected body of supposedly un-corruptible individuals) would solve all the ills. Power, without checks and balances, has always led to "bad stuff"

no fan of lokpala. but talking of checks and balances, can we be in worse situation than unaccountable bodies like nac (a.k.a the dynasty's hand-picked taliban) making bills for this govt under the nose of an unelected rubber-stamp pm? look at harsh mander, he's on every subcommitte of the nac (http://nac.nic.in/subgroup.htm). he's also on disgraced isi man's ghulam nabi fai's "justice foundation": http://www.justicefoundation.co.uk/welcomeDetail.php

do you think mander's isi links are a mere coincidence?

if all this agitation leads to the ruling dynasty's downfall, it is worth it.

NAC looks like Indian version of Obama's Czar council

Agree, we need to get rid of this dynasty.. but to me, end never justifies the means.

They need to be thrown out electorally

[dextrous]

i must say this term 'preventive arrest' is new to me.

I'm not the biggest Anna (Hazare) fan but i love the precedent here.

Is it in Minority Report or Vanilla Sky (some tom cruise movie for sure) where people were taken to jail for crimes they commit in the future?

 

agree. a person's right to protest is fundamental to any democracy. denying him a place to protest is a sign of cowardice. i do not know his reason (and look at us speak...we are so skeptical of humanity that we doubt a 70 year old man could be protesting for no motive!) but i see no reason why he or ramdev cannot use a stadium to protest.

[22 Yards]

what is the need of this Lokpal?

Agree..

It is naive to assume that a Lokpal (unelected body of supposedly un-corruptible individuals) would solve all the ills. Power, without checks and balances, has always led to "bad stuff"

no fan of lokpala. but talking of checks and balances, can we be in worse situation than unaccountable bodies like nac (a.k.a the dynasty's hand-picked taliban) making bills for this govt under the nose of an unelected rubber-stamp pm? look at harsh mander, he's on every subcommitte of the nac (http://nac.nic.in/subgroup.htm). he's also on disgraced isi man's ghulam nabi fai's "justice foundation": http://www.justicefoundation.co.uk/welcomeDetail.php

do you think mander's isi links are a mere coincidence?

if all this agitation leads to the ruling dynasty's downfall, it is worth it.

NAC looks like Indian version of Obama's Czar council

Agree, we need to get rid of this dynasty.. but to me, end never justifies the means.

They need to be thrown out electorally

Yes electorally, right on the money.

You know, how ironic this situation is.
One one hand, we say, we are a democratic nation and we have the constitutional right to speech and right to assembly, on the other hand, we are killing the very idea of democracy, 'majority rules'.
As our founding fathers guessed rightly that day, it would be quite possible for us to retain the democracy in its form but not in fact. If we wish to retain the democracy in its form and in fact, then there is only one way. CONSTITUTIONAL methods. To achieve any social or economic or political objectives.
Even with all these ills we have right now in our societies, why India is still a great country.
We stuck to our guns of constitutional procedures

Satyagraha, civil disobedience or any other supposedly non violent procedures are the bloodiest revolutions in our struggle for freedom, if you ask me. And Indian history had incorporated that blatant TrueLie in its pages.

Even *hi himself opposed Satyagraha or any of his methods. Great man he was,  always open minded unlike some civils society experts today.

If he had wanted, he would have asked the Viceroy to include Satyagraha as a constitutional right in the Govt of India Act 1935, which was more or less the basis for our eventual constitution. Then why didnt he?

He obviously was able to see the future.

As you guys rightly pointed out, we have the systems in place. All we need is to reform them, to amend them. Replacing them with new ones surely would spell hell in future.

Have you noticed, not a single poster on this thread, is a fan of JanLokpal.
And they say they are going a democratic way, my left foot!!

[teamindia]

Defending Anna Hazare and the Jan Lok Pal

http://aamjanata.com/defending-anna-hazare-and-the-jan-lok-pal/

They say you can wake up one who is sleeping, but not one who pretends to sleep.
Beginning with the disclaimer – I am not particularly a supporter of the bill. Nor am I supporting for any ideological reasons or in expectation of miracle cures. I support the movement in the sense that the people demanded what they wanted, got the agreements out of the government, and are now fighting for the government to fulfill them. I don’t understand law, and I don’t like predicting outcomes even more. I have no comment on either bill. I think our parliament is well capable of debating it.
My main stand is from  the realities I see, experience and more than that, I find the stand taken by many intellectuals on this issue very unscientific. This is yet another post poking holes at currently prevailing disinformation and other arguments.

Challenging an elected government is no way, people should vote.

Let me get this right. Even if and that is a mega IF voting were indeed capable of changing ethics of power hungry politicians, it would take at least one election for them to feel the sting, and the next for their new and improved avatar to be available.
While this may be acceptable to those who got the bright idea and are living comfortably off enough to wait long periods before any results are seen, the health of the country is deteriorating rapidly. It is unfair to expect a person living in hardship to show a minimum of 6 years patience for results that may or may not deliver.

People have no right to protest against government corruption as long as there are bribes, etc.

Actually, most research shows that corruption in regular life has dropped drastically. You no longer need to pay bribes to get phones, as @acorn very helpfully pointed out in another article. And other things. This has had no reducing influence on scams at the levels of power over national resources.
Massive amounts of National resources have been outright looted, misused or gifted to someone without the ordinary citizen ever knowing, let alone being able to fix or influence. These are separate things. One arises from a system that is complex and intimidating with stagnating processes, making it profitable for middlemen to get jobs done for a fee. The other is misuse of authority over national resources for personal profit.
Not defending either, but the actors, the environment, the impact, and actions that can fix are entirely different. Saying that as long as one exists, people can’t challenge the other is…. bizarre. What is more, there are plenty of initiatives for whistle blowing, institutional reforms, etc and they are showing results. So it is really strange to talk about the problem as though it is one created by civilians or one that can be fixed by fixing civilians.

These are people you have elected.

And these are people we are taking to task. At the end of the day, we are a democracy and the people have the power.

The Bill is not correct because A B C

So who was stopping people who saw problems from contributing to making it better? Suggestions were solicited, so why didn’t these people make them? Then the bill would have had less problems. Or if they were refused, they would have still been refused after considering carefully. It certainly can’t be claimed that a few things make the entire document invalid, and we do have a parliament capable of debating these things. If it is so impractical, it will hang. Or it may get improved. We don’t know. But for it not to reach the Parliament is a breach of faith with the entire country, critics included. A government must live up to its promises.

Anna is wrong with this fast

I think it is the government that is wrong in going back on its word. It agreed to the Joint Committee. So why is the output of the Joint Committee used only selectively? Why does it have to come down to an aged man starving himself to see what is already agreed upon happen? If the government had no intention of using the inputs, it should have had the principles to stick to its stand. A word once given doesn’t last a couple of months?

This is blackmail

Actually, it is not blackmail. The way I see this, these issues had reached a point where they couldn’t be avoided. The people backed the option they got. If the government hadn’t angered the entire country, Anna could merrily starve to death, and few would have cared. Certainly not enough to force the government into anything. In fact, the government could have done many things to bring the anger down, but it chose not to. The attack on Baba Ramdev’s protest is an example. Broken promises all through. Anna decides to fast again, and 12 year old dirt is found. It was not found when he was not fasting. Selective dirt. Hmm.
Actually, I see it as blackmail to threaten people with the law when they are doing something that is not illegal in the country. The restrictions put on Anna’s protests, the misinformation, outright lies and slander, threats of police action (particularly after we see examples of how legal or gentle it is). What part of this is not blackmail? Why is 144 being applied? Why was there no permission for a gathering of thousands to use speakers or other restrictions that were illogical for the size of the group like 50 vehicles? What does it mean to give permissions for vastly inadequate resources when the previous protest that “exceeded resources” got attacked in the middle of the night and sleeping protesters lathi charged? Is this not use of government power to obstruct and threaten the protest? Is this not a threat of harm?
Saying that the government action is not a threat of harm or blackmail is like saying that a knife pointed at your neck is not a threat, because if you don’t move, it won’t hurt you at all. Surprising that we don’t expect legal behaviour from leaders, but are out in force to criticize those who challenge it.

Anna himself is corrupt and other versions of accusation and other members etc

Even a criminal in India has rights. The movement is about reform, not naming Anna the president. If the idea is sound, every person leading it being corrupt makes no difference to the people who are helped by it.

The Lok Pal itself is a bad idea, unnecessary, etc.

You have missed that bus. The government is now committed to passing the bill. You should have convinced people of your idea earlier. Right now, it is important that the people’s interests are represented when the bill is debated. Attacking the Jan Lok Pal at this stage simply means facilitating the flawed government version to get through.
If you think it is a good idea, I seriously recommend you read Kapil April Fool Sibal’s last masterpiece – the RTE with profound wisdom like each class having at least two teachers, and each teacher having her own classroom. Compute that. It has created more problems than it solved, particularly among innovative schools doing exceptional work and homeschoolers. When asked about the status of homeschoolers, the man had said that the bill would not be revised, but homeschoolers could find ways around it. Yep. Advocating the bypass of his own creation. Primary school admissions have DROPPED since the RTE was passed.
So, really. If this is the damage Sherlock does to the country with nothing personal at stake, imagine the havoc he will wreak when he has his own hide on stake.
To put it bluntly, I have no trust in the recent flood of laws these guys are churning out, and something that is important to the entire country still evading the input of representatives of the civil society sounds ominous to me, regardless of what the bill is. With the government committed to passing the bill, I think every sane person in the country should be rooting for the ideas that brought the country to its feet at least being presented for consideration.

Crowd psychology.

Sachin Kalbag of Midday shared an interesting article on crowd psychology which supports what some intellectuals speak of, but puts it in more scientific language. The article speaks of the greater accuracy of collective wisdom, and how that accuracy becomes worse if the crowd is influenced by an idea. This is a good point, and while the data isn’t in a verifiable format, it seems plausible. However, there is little evidence that the stand of the crowd has changed. However, these things are very difficult to estimate live. In any case, this is a caution, and thinking minds must remain thinking. I suppose thoughtful choices is the best one can do, when caught in a process you have no way of getting a overview or alternative view of.
But yes, most definitely a danger of the “herd mentality” that we all must keep in mind, regardless of which side of the debate we are on. I don’t see this “idea infecting group opinion” necessarily as a risk limited to the supporters. Very easily possible with the opposers too – more, in fact, since the opposition seems to be evolving, unlike the supporters constant stand. However, rather than use this as a point to discredit either side, I would look at this as something we must remain aware of as a possibility, so that the best of thinking may be available to the country, regardless of what it is.
There are more things, but I’ll leave them for a later article, since the thought process is at a much nicer place of thinking our best for the country rather than support/oppose divide.
Want to state once more, that my support is for the movement. I see many people coming together in unprecedented numbers, so to me, what they want is important, whether right or wrong, and they must be heard and their concerns must be accommodated. If there is a compromise that denoted lower quality to some, it is a consideration that they see it as the price of complacency so far, rather than deliberate evil inflicted on the country.

[teamindia]

Have you noticed, not a single poster on this thread, is a fan of JanLokpal.
And they say they are going a democratic way, my left foot!!

Sorry, I am the supporter of Jan Lokpal.

Good luck to you, if you conclude that since nobody is in support of the bill on this forum hence this is the view of majority. If you strongly believe that majority is against it then why get furious? Just ignore the minority, they are no threat. 

[dave_dj]

Interesting - Mahatma *hi's party does not believe in *hian approach.   Sad that so many great Indians sacrificed their lives only to end up with their motherland being looted and ruled by an Italian bumpkin - it seems that unfortunately corrupt Indians like to be ruled by some idiots from outside.

While at it, an excellent production on nationalism - full national anthem sung by artists across whole of India -  must watch.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/JltFQS9kFXA&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/JltFQS9kFXA&rel=0</a>

[feverpitch]

NAC looks like Indian version of Obama's Czar council
Agree, we need to get rid of this dynasty.. but to me, end never justifies the means.
They need to be thrown out electorally

Just playing the devil's advocate. No fan of Anna/Baba/Rakhi Sawant.

You say the dynasty needs to be thrown out electorally. This I presume assumes that the democracy is in place in India. But what if it has been subverted already, the goalposts removed or shifted to an unknown location, with only a hologram of the real thing out there for show. What are the indicators towards or against this? Every scam in the last few years have exposed the same, hasn't it. Also remember, even the BJP is reluctant to pick up on these issues most of the time.
Most significantly, though, think of the Niira Radia scam. I think that is the crux to understanding the present condition. Many of the people out there protesting are middle class who are fed up. The people who are expected to ALWAYS remain in their homes. Its sad that in this Kalyug, the leader of the protest, too, is a compromised moron with dictatorial tendencies.

[RicePlateReddy]

*hi would never have used fast as a blackmailing weapon against the government. He used it only with his own people to help them come to reason.

He fasted several times, well aware that his fasting would coerce those in opposition to his views to think again and act before his condition became critical. I don't believe the motivation behind Anna's fasting is significantly different.

[RicePlateReddy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Lokpal_Bill#Highlights:Difference_between_Government_and_activist_drafts

[WicketView]

Have you noticed, not a single poster on this thread, is a fan of JanLokpal.
And they say they are going a democratic way, my left foot!!

Sorry, I am the supporter of Jan Lokpal.

Good luck to you, if you conclude that since nobody is in support of the bill on this forum hence this is the view of majority. If you strongly believe that majority is against it then why get furious? Just ignore the minority, they are no threat.

There is popular support ... Clearly there are enough supporters to take to streets and maidans, and write on internet fora. There exist people who don't see this a solution (I know because I count myself in that group), have talked to some people who seem to have similar opinions, and have read (for example in this website) that there are people who don't support it either. Most of the people in the latter group do believe that corruption is a major problem (at least) in India, and at least I know that I don't necessarily suspect Hazare (I do not necessarily extend the same to all of his supporters) of having ulterior motives of personal gain. I simply am (very) skeptical of the solution till I see more of it. But, even if I were in India, I probably would not throng the maidans and street to express this, mostly because there is no anti-Lokpal organization that I am in support of. So, how can one conclude by looking at the swell of popular support for Anna on the street and the internet, that a majority of people support Lokpal or if it is a 10 percent of people who support it, while maybe 40 percent don't (rest being fence sitters), or the opposite way around?

The only way to settle that question is through some kind of a vote. This is why the election is central to the process. But Anna wants it his way now, without a vote claiming vocal support as a proxy for a mandate. This is where I have a problem.

[WicketView]

NAC looks like Indian version of Obama's Czar council
Agree, we need to get rid of this dynasty.. but to me, end never justifies the means.
They need to be thrown out electorally

Just playing the devil's advocate. No fan of Anna/Baba/Rakhi Sawant.

You say the dynasty needs to be thrown out electorally. This I presume assumes that the democracy is in place in India. But what if it has been subverted already, the goalposts removed or shifted to an unknown location, with only a hologram of the real thing out there for show. What are the indicators towards or against this? Every scam in the last few years have exposed the same, hasn't it. Also remember, even the BJP is reluctant to pick up on these issues most of the time.
Most significantly, though, think of the Niira Radia scam. I think that is the crux to understanding the present condition.

I think I agree to a large extent. What we have is not an "ideal" democracy. And of course it would be desirable to correct it.

That does not imply that such a correction exists in a way that could be implemented quickly, or that any change will actually be in the desirable direction. The enemy of the enemy is not necessarily a friend.

Many of the people out there protesting are middle class who are fed up. The people who are expected to ALWAYS remain in their homes. Its sad that in this Kalyug, the leader of the protest, too, is a compromised moron with dictatorial tendencies.

Sure, they are fed up, but are acts of desperation always correct? Besides,  I think the "ALWAYS remain in their homes" but is different here for a number of reasons. Hopes to correct a problem that we all agree is a problem, Stature of the leader in question, "marketing" of the cause by several media outlets which directly targets the middle class.

[vincent]

The only way out of this is to have a true Referendum which many European countries have the provision for when absolutely needed. I know that American and British (and as a result Indian) systems do not allow that to happen. It is a pity and as such we are bound by this general election every 5 years.

[WicketView]

The only way out of this is to have a true Referendum which many European countries have the provision for when absolutely needed. I know that American and British (and as a result Indian) systems do not allow that to happen. It is a pity and as such we are bound by this general election every 5 years.

To some extent I agree. Obviously, if Hazare has some great idea but does not want to necessarily run the govt (which involves many other issues), then a referendum can target that issue independently.

On the other hand, what ails this whole issue is the practicality (more than extra-democratic ...etc.). The cause of eliminating corruption is noble ... no doubts about it. Does the plan work? For this you actually want to see what resources can be allocated for such a  plan, and whether the plan is feasible with those. So, it is necessary to do this WITH the government.

[dextrous]

*hi would never have used fast as a blackmailing weapon against the government. He used it only with his own people to help them come to reason.

He fasted several times, well aware that his fasting would coerce those in opposition to his views to think again and act before his condition became critical. I don't believe the motivation behind Anna's fasting is significantly different.

*hi fasted ONLY to blackmail!

[teamindia]

Have you noticed, not a single poster on this thread, is a fan of JanLokpal.
And they say they are going a democratic way, my left foot!!

Sorry, I am the supporter of Jan Lokpal.

Good luck to you, if you conclude that since nobody is in support of the bill on this forum hence this is the view of majority. If you strongly believe that majority is against it then why get furious? Just ignore the minority, they are no threat.

There is popular support ... Clearly there are enough supporters to take to streets and maidans, and write on internet fora. There exist people who don't see this a solution (I know because I count myself in that group), have talked to some people who seem to have similar opinions, and have read (for example in this website) that there are people who don't support it either. Most of the people in the latter group do believe that corruption is a major problem (at least) in India, and at least I know that I don't necessarily suspect Hazare (I do not necessarily extend the same to all of his supporters) of having ulterior motives of personal gain. I simply am (very) skeptical of the solution till I see more of it. But, even if I were in India, I probably would not throng the maidans and street to express this, mostly because there is no anti-Lokpal organization that I am in support of. So, how can one conclude by looking at the swell of popular support for Anna on the street and the internet, that a majority of people support Lokpal or if it is a 10 percent of people who support it, while maybe 40 percent don't (rest being fence sitters), or the opposite way around?

The only way to settle that question is through some kind of a vote. This is why the election is central to the process. But Anna wants it his way now, without a vote claiming vocal support as a proxy for a mandate. This is where I have a problem.

WV,
Though I believe majority support Jan Lokapl I would not argue if someone says otherwise. My point was, it is absurd to conclude the majority based on 4 posts in this thread.

Coming to "Anti-Lokapl Group", if this group is not in favour of Jan Lokapl then they have to come up with a better suggestion which is feasible to implement. Someone from this group should take the initiative to show why Jan Lokpal is not good and what is the better alternative to fight corruption. Simply opposing the Jan Lokpal without proposing a solution, is of no use.

The fact is people are fed up with corruption and looking for something/someone to control it. Jan Lokapl may not be the perfect solution but if it can reduce the corruption even by 10-20% I am all for it. I think many people who are protesting do not understand what Jan Lokpal is all about but they firmly believe it is something good that might help reducing corruption. If someone comes up with a better solution I am sure people will support them as they are doing now.

I was very sceptical about the idea of Lokapl when I first heard it. But after reading more into detail and reading how the similar institute (ICAC) in HK was effective I am sold. You can read more about ICAC here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Commission_Against_Corruption_(Hong_Kong)

Though sad but it is reality that no political party Congress, BJP or others would want a effective anti-corruption mechanism in place hence it will have to be some extra ordinary efforts or some sort of revolution from people to get something like this. I see Anna and his team as the crusader who are making it possible. They may succeed or they may fail but at least they tried to do something.

[teamindia]

NAC looks like Indian version of Obama's Czar council
Agree, we need to get rid of this dynasty.. but to me, end never justifies the means.
They need to be thrown out electorally

Just playing the devil's advocate. No fan of Anna/Baba/Rakhi Sawant.

You say the dynasty needs to be thrown out electorally. This I presume assumes that the democracy is in place in India. But what if it has been subverted already, the goalposts removed or shifted to an unknown location, with only a hologram of the real thing out there for show. What are the indicators towards or against this? Every scam in the last few years have exposed the same, hasn't it. Also remember, even the BJP is reluctant to pick up on these issues most of the time.
Most significantly, though, think of the Niira Radia scam. I think that is the crux to understanding the present condition. Many of the people out there protesting are middle class who are fed up. The people who are expected to ALWAYS remain in their homes. Its sad that in this Kalyug, the leader of the protest, too, is a compromised moron with dictatorial tendencies.

Can you please explain what is he dictating and to whom? To dictate something to someone, one needs power and he has no power whatsoever. 

[teamindia]

WV,
Here is the anti-lokpal group on facebook for you to join.
Hope you guys come up with some better solution.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/188923034497690/

 

[Blwe_torch]

Is there a fence-sitter group too? I would like to join there.
But I feel, the Lokpal bill( the Anna Hazare full version....or the full Anna Hazare version  ) can be debated in the Parliament...and not operated through a 'standing-committee', as it is being done now.
There is public support......and I feel it merits a discussion in the Parliament...and the modus-operandi may be worked out accordingly.
I was listening to Shri. Arvind Kejriwal's statement( an Anna aid, just out of Tihar jail)......and learnt that they don't intend to form laws in the maidan, and wants laws to be formulated in Parliament only................but that, they are requesting that atleast the full-version be presented in the Parliament by the Govt, for a proper debate.
I feel, that is a fair ask...........................................otherwise, I too remain a skeptical fence-sitter, as of now.

[WicketView]

Have you noticed, not a single poster on this thread, is a fan of JanLokpal.
And they say they are going a democratic way, my left foot!!

Sorry, I am the supporter of Jan Lokpal.

Good luck to you, if you conclude that since nobody is in support of the bill on this forum hence this is the view of majority. If you strongly believe that majority is against it then why get furious? Just ignore the minority, they are no threat.

There is popular support ... Clearly there are enough supporters to take to streets and maidans, and write on internet fora. There exist people who don't see this a solution (I know because I count myself in that group), have talked to some people who seem to have similar opinions, and have read (for example in this website) that there are people who don't support it either. Most of the people in the latter group do believe that corruption is a major problem (at least) in India, and at least I know that I don't necessarily suspect Hazare (I do not necessarily extend the same to all of his supporters) of having ulterior motives of personal gain. I simply am (very) skeptical of the solution till I see more of it. But, even if I were in India, I probably would not throng the maidans and street to express this, mostly because there is no anti-Lokpal organization that I am in support of. So, how can one conclude by looking at the swell of popular support for Anna on the street and the internet, that a majority of people support Lokpal or if it is a 10 percent of people who support it, while maybe 40 percent don't (rest being fence sitters), or the opposite way around?

The only way to settle that question is through some kind of a vote. This is why the election is central to the process. But Anna wants it his way now, without a vote claiming vocal support as a proxy for a mandate. This is where I have a problem.

WV,
Though I believe majority support Jan Lokapl I would not argue if someone says otherwise. My point was, it is absurd to conclude the majority based on 4 posts in this thread.

Fair enough.

Coming to "Anti-Lokapl Group", if this group is not in favour of Jan Lokapl then they have to come up with a better suggestion which is feasible to implement. Someone from this group should take the initiative to show why Jan Lokpal is not good and what is the better alternative to fight corruption. Simply opposing the Jan Lokpal without proposing a solution, is of no use.

I think the two parts I highlighted are different questions. I do not agree that a solution needs to be proposed. What you could ask for is why Lokpal could make things worse than the current situation.

The fact is people are fed up with corruption and looking for something/someone to control it. Jan Lokapl may not be the perfect solution but if it can reduce the corruption even by 10-20% I am all for it. I think many people who are protesting do not understand what Jan Lokpal is all about but they firmly believe it is something good that might help reducing corruption. If someone comes up with a better solution I am sure people will support them as they are doing now.

If it could reduce corruption by even 1 percent and not have other dangerous possibilities, I am all for it.

I was very sceptical about the idea of Lokapl when I first heard it. But after reading more into detail and reading how the similar institute (ICAC) in HK was effective I am sold. You can read more about ICAC here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Commission_Against_Corruption_(Hong_Kong)

I will try to learn about that. Thanks for the link.

Though sad but it is reality that no political party Congress, BJP or others would want a effective anti-corruption mechanism in place hence it will have to be some extra ordinary efforts or some sort of revolution from people to get something like this. I see Anna and his team as the crusader who are making it possible. They may succeed or they may fail but at least they tried to do something.

I agree none of the parties want a check on corruption. Why? Because every party has to depend on people who are corrupt. Why? Because whenever you have a large enough sample of people who can pull off a major job, you will have some corrupt people. The problem with this Jan Lokpal is that the same applies to them. And those corrupt guys will have too much power and no fear of even losing popular support.

[feverpitch]

I think I agree to a large extent. What we have is not an "ideal" democracy. And of course it would be desirable to correct it. That does not imply that such a correction exists in a way that could be implemented quickly, or that any change will actually be in the desirable direction. The enemy of the enemy is not necessarily a friend.

I don't think I was talking of any one quick solution. But as I have posted many times earlier, and I see here Vincent also endorsing the same view, referendum, or as I call it "direct democracy", where there is a right to recall the elected representatives along with a right to vote to decide on most, if not all, issues, is the next evolutionary direction of democracy as we know it. Unfortunately, it is far too threatening for the whole body of professional politicians, so we can trust them to never bring it up in any meaningful debate.

Having said that, 2 things:

1. In this setup, there has to be a mechanism by which, before a referendum, all possible views on the subject under vote are allowed to be voiced and made possible to reach the whole electorate. This is where an independent but state funded mass media is essential.

2. Systems, as well as checks-and-balances are only good for the "n-th" period. In the "n+1-th" period, someone will have found a way to subvert it already. That's human nature. It's also a function of such a large, diverse and heterogenous population. However, if an equivalent mechanism, by which laws are also allowed to be tweaked to fit a scenario, without being influenced by the tendencies of the lawmakers, then, possibly, it might work, somewhat.

Sure, they are fed up, but are acts of desperation always correct? Besides,  I think the "ALWAYS remain in their homes" but is different here for a number of reasons. Hopes to correct a problem that we all agree is a problem, Stature of the leader in question, "marketing" of the cause by several media outlets which directly targets the middle class.

Agreed.

[teamindia]

I agree none of the parties want a check on corruption. Why? Because every party has to depend on people who are corrupt. Why? Because whenever you have a large enough sample of people who can pull off a major job, you will have some corrupt people. The problem with this Jan Lokpal is that the same applies to them. And those corrupt guys will have too much power and no fear of even losing popular support.

Fare point. I am quoting directly form the draft of JLP. It is still not full proof but much better then our existing institutions which are very much susceptible to corruption.


-----------
How to ensure that there is no corruption within Jan Lokpal

a. Firstly, by ensuring that the right person is selected for this role!
Selection process for the members and Chairperson of Jan Lokpal and Jan Lokayukta has been kept transparent, broad based and participatory.
   The 10 members and the chairperson of Jan Lokpal will be selected by a Selection Committee that would comprise of the PM, Leader of the opposition in Lok Sabha, two youngest judges of Supreme Court (SC), two youngest Chief Justices of High Courts, Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) and the Chief Election Commissioner (CEC). The Selection Committee will make the above appointment from a pool of shortlisted candidates that has been identified by a “Search Committee”.
   The “Search Committee” is a 10-member committee formed as follows:  First, the Selection Committee selects five members from retired Chief Election Commissioners and retired CAGs. However those CECs and CAGs who have any substantive allegation of corruption against them or who have joined any political party after retirement or who are still in any government appointment shall not be eligible. These 5 members will then select another 5 members from the civil society to make the 10-member Search Committee.
   The Search Committee will invite recommendations from various eminent people (like journalists, academics, etc). These names will be put up on a website and public feedback invited. The search committee will then, by consensus, choose 3 times the number of vacancies.  This list will be forwarded to the Selection Committee which will then make final selections through consensus.
   All meetings of the Search Committee and Selection Committee shall be video recorded and will be made public.
   Jan Lokpal and Jan Lokayukta will then select and appoint its own officers and staff.

b. Secondly, by ensuring that they work well!
   Every complaint to Jan Lokpal or Jan Lokayukta shall have to be compulsorily disposed. No complaint could be rejected without giving a hearing to the complainant. If any case is closed, all records related thereto shall be made public
   The functioning of Jan Lokpal and Jan Lokayukta will be completely transparent. All records will be open to the public, barring those which will affect national security or security of the whistle blower. Those which will impede the process of investigation, may be withheld during investigations but these records will also have to be disclosed after conclusion of investigations. 
   Lokpal will publish every month on its website the status of cases received, disposed, closed, reasons for closure and the list of cases pending
.
c. Thirdly, by ensuring that Jan Lokpal and Jan Lokayukt are not influenced!
The Chairperson and members will not be eligible for appointment to any position in the government or for contesting elections after they leave office.
d. Fourthly, by ensuring that if not working well, they can be removed!
(i)   Removal of corrupt staff in Lokpal or Lokayukta
Complaints of corruption against the staff could be made to an independent platform, which will be set up in each Commissionerate or at the level of each state and at national level. These complaints will be enquired into within a month. If the allegations are proved, the corrupt staff will be dismissed from the job in the next one month and a criminal case will be registered under various sections of Indian Penal Code and Prevention of Corruption Act.
(ii) Removal of Lokpal or Lokayukta members or Chairperson
Complaints against members and chair person could be made to Supreme Court or respective High Court. A bench of respective Court, after hearing, may order the formation of a Special Investigation Team that will conduct an inquiry and submit its report within 3 months. On the basis of this enquiry report, the respective Court may order removal of the member or Chairperson.

 

[12th_Man]

I am with TeamIndia and Anna! Actually i am with any initiative that would fight corruption at all levels in country

[12th_Man]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Zi2ll1flXp8&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Zi2ll1flXp8&rel=0</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TQyGZ3Q-2Wc&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/TQyGZ3Q-2Wc&rel=0</a>

[12th_Man]

http://actorprepares.net/blogs/?p=743


My support for Anna Hazare stems not just from my convictions, but out of personal experience too. My grandfather was a civil engineer with the municipal authorities in Simla and there was a contract to be awarded to construct a road and a helipad. A contractor came with a  Rs 30,000 bribe so that he can get the contract from my grandfather. My grandfather resigned from the job. When his supervisor asked him why he wanted to resign, he said, “ Today I may not need the money, but tomorrow a need may arise enticing me to accept it. …. If many many years later, I can tell my grandson tales about how I didn’t bow down to corruption, my life is worth it.”

 

My grandfather was a man with *hian ideals and principles and I have always remembered his sayings during moments of crises. Among his many memorable quotes was that once a man gets drenched in the rains, he can never afraid of rainwater. My entry into the film industry in Saraansh too was ironically in the role of a retired, principled, schoolteacher who does not give in to corruption. He fights the system even in his old age.

 

Besides my background, wherever I go I find people always complaining about corruption, but not doing anything about it. I think it is in our attitudes, it is largely about people who have met with some success in life. We are the selfish ones because we do not want to stick our necks out and stand up for principles and values because we are scared that our possessions will be snatched away from us and we will have to start our journey again. We, the privileged ones, are shirking from our social responsibilities and are letting millions of our poor, uneducated, underprivileged,  countrymen down by not standing up for a clean system of governance.

 

We, and I also include our politicians here, forget that Mahatma *hi could have led a life of ease in South Africa as he was a successful barrister. But faced with injustice, he gave it all up and returned to his homeland to fight the mightiest empire in history. If we have largely forgotten history, we are condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past.

I do not wish to forget history. For me it is more important to live by respect than by compromise. I run an acting institution and if my students, or my son Sikander, will ask me, “Why did you not raise your voice against corruption?”, I want to tell them that I did! Years later when my grand children ask me, “Where were you in the days of Anna Hazare’s crusade against corruption?”, I want to tell them that I was there with him!

 

We have progressed a lot in the six decades of independence, but corruption is proving to being a major drag on the economy. It is affecting every section of society. Whether it is in providing good roads, or quality education or safe drinking water, our very existence is in jeopardy because of the corrupt bureaucratic politician nexus. Money is just being siphoned off from all welfare schemes and there is no accountability. It is not Anna Hazare but former Prime Minister Rajiv *hi who said that of every rupee spent on development, only 17 paise reaches its intended target…. Where does the other 83 % of funds go?  Do you know what economic wonders and miraculous rates of growth can be achieved if we plug the missing 83%?

 

I don’t want to be safe. If I want to make people believe that corruption is evil, I need to speak out  myself. When you raise your voice, you discover your strengths because you are on the side of the truth. This is a historical moment for  our country. There is man who has become a symbol of strength, and hope, for the masses. Luckily we got a man who is completely non corrupt – Anna Hazare.   He lives in a temple, has two sets of clothes, and he didn’t get married because he wanted to live for the cause. He listened to his conscience. We too can hear our conscience, but we don’t act because of fear.

 

Surely, we cannot cleanse the land of corruption is one sweep. It will take a long time just as the road to independence took nine decades after 1857. But the journey must begin. The citizens of the country have a right to expect a clean system of administration. It is heartening that the cause has attracted, and galvanised, the youth of this country. Wherever I go, I am astounded to see that it is the youth which is fuelling the cause and wants to clean up the system. It is time for people of my generation and my seniors to move on. We owe the youth of India, the inheritors of this great land, to do right by their aspirations. And the time is now…

 

Many people have questioned my motives in this campaign. Many well-wishers have advised me to keep quiet, or else life and living could get difficult. And my detractors have taunted me by saying that films mein kaam  nahi hai, toh netagiri mein aa gaya hai! Let them have their say. I too could have stayed in the shadows, away from the media glare like many folks . I have had my house stoned and my effigies burnt because of my association with Anna Hazare. I have not done this for publicity; there are easier ways to appear in the media! I have done it because there is no other way for me if I have to live up to my grandfather’s ideals. 

I do not want to wrestle with my conscience. I want to live with it…

[12th_Man]

Do my friends opposing anti corruption movement have ever benefitted directly or indirectly from RTI? Do you folks know if our inept politicians have either the wisdom or the will to draft such acts?

[12th_Man]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/08/18/india.hazare.corruption.strike/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

From soldier to savior:
 India's Hazare another *hi?By Kevin Voigt, CNNAugust 18, 2011 10:53 a.m. EDT
Social activist Anna Hazare has galvanized the nation of India and drawn comparison to Mohandas *hi for his work to fight government corruption.STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Ascetic social activist Anna Hazare has galvanized the nation of India
Has risen to national prominence in the wake of high-profile corruption cases
A former Indian soldier, he took a vow of chasticy and service after retiring
Has captivated India this week when the government tried to block his protest fast
(CNN) -- He wears only khadi, a simple garb of homespun cotton, and lives in a small room off a temple in a remote, drought-prone western Indian village. A veteran of the 1965 India-Pakistan war, he retired from the Indian army and took vows of chastity and public service.

According to public statements in June, the septuagenarian bachelor has $1,500 in his bank account.

But ascetic social activist Anna Hazare has galvanized the nation of India, rattling the country's leadership at the highest levels, as he garners support that cuts across economic and social divides.

His grassroots effort to fight corruption through public fasting has drawn comparisons to Mohandas *hi, whose non-violent efforts helped lead to India's independence from British rule in 1947.

Hazare channels river of dissatisfaction over corruption



Gallery: Indian corruption fighter

Indian activist to begin fast

Reaching a compromise in India "We are tired of the problem of corruption, but he is saying: There is another way," said Usheer Mohan, a New Delhi business owner who took to the streets to protest Hazare's arrest this week ahead of a planned anti-corruption demonstration.

"He gives hope for all Indians. There is a feeling he can take us out of these problems. People have started considering him another *hi."

Hazare has been a vocal opponent against corruption for two decades, but only in recent months has he catapulted onto the national stage as the people's voice against endemic corruption that plagues one of the world's fastest-growing economies.

"If you keep track of Indian news, you know how truly widespread and national this is - it is in every nook and corner of this country today," Kiran Bedi, a Hazare aide, told CNN.

"One and all have either seen bribes or experienced bribes or suffered from a bribe, so it's both at bottom and the top, and it's truly united this country in a wave against corruption."

Bedi, a former senior police official, is like Hazare himself a Magsaysay Award winner -- one of Asia's biggest accolades for public service leadership. Other activists involved in his anti-corruption crusade -- which the Indian media dubs "Team Anna" -- have fought for "right to information" laws to make India's notoriously labyrinthine bureaucracy more transparent.

Kisan Baburao Hazare -- known to his admirers as "Anna" or elder brother in his native Marathi -- is a former soldier who, after watching compatriots die fighting in the 1965 war with Pakistan, considered suicide until he had a spiritual conversion after reading the teachings of Swami Vivekananda, according to his official biography. Vivekananda, a father of modern Hindu philosophy, emphasized the importance of social service in his teachings.

Hazare first garnered attention for helping to turn his village, Ralegan Siddhi, in the western state of Maharashtra into a model for water use and sustainable development --work for which he received two of India's highest national prizes in the early 1990s.

He also launched a campaign against the distilling and consumption of liquor in the village, which he believed was leading to widespread alcoholism among men. The anti-alcohol drive was controversial: Drunk men were sometimes tied to posts and flogged, but women supported an effort to impose prohibition on the village.

Hazare began to work against corruption in 1991 in a local campaign against the state forestry agency, resulting in his first hunger strike -- a tool he has used repeatedly in his public campaigns over the past 20 years.

People have started considering him another *hi

--Usheer Mohan, a New Delhi business owner Hunger strike as a popular weapon of public protest in India "goes back to the days of Mahatma *hi," said Zoya Hasan, professor of political science at Jawaharlal Nehru University. "He employed fasting as a weapon of protest, a weapon of struggle. Since then, because of its association with *hi and the iconic status of *hi, fasts have been a very popular form of protest."

Hazare conducted a five-day hunger strike in April which ended after India's prime minister agreed to introduce long-pending legislation meant to crack down on graft.

The latest stalemate is over the scope of powers the proposed independent commission, known as Lokpal, would have. Hazare and his supporters want the body to be able to independently investigate the prime minister and Supreme Court; government officials say such a move would give too much unchecked power to the new watchdog agency. The government also says Parliament should be the forum where this law should be finalized, without undue pressure from unelected activists.

In a statement to Parliament, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said his government wants a Lokpal established quickly to combat corruption, but "the path that he has chosen to impose his draft of a Bill upon Parliament is totally misconceived and fraught with grave consequences for our Parliamentary democracy."

Hazare's aides see it differently.



What's next for Anna Hazare?

Hunger strike a last resort?

Face of India's anti-corruption fight RELATED TOPICS
India
Indian Politics
Anna Hazare
Manmohan Singh
"The hunger strike has been a last resort by Anna Hazare ... nobody wants to go to a hunger strike at the drop of a hat," Hazare confidant Bedi said. "The process has failed, dialogue has failed, meetings brought about no results."

Hazare was planning to go on a hunger strike to call for stronger anti-corruption measures when he was detained Tuesday. As thousands took to the streets to protest the arrest, authorities let him free, but he refused to leave the jail.

The anti-corruption crusader has accepted a police proposal that will allow him to proceed with his public fast and demonstration in New Delhi in public for two weeks, according to Hazare supporters.

Government moves to detain Hazare before his planned public hunger strike catalyzed supporters like 43-year-old Mohan, who took to the streets of the capital on Tuesday night after Hazare's incarceration.

"We were shouting slogans, waving flags and banners, singing the national anthem," said Mohan, who is a director of Studio Thorn, a retail design firm in New Delhi.

The government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh -- who has overseen an economy that has more than doubled in size the past seven years to an estimated $1.7 trillion this year -- is now roiled in a string of high-profile corruption scandals.

In April, Suresh Kalmadi, the chief organizer for last year's Commonwealth Games, was arrested and accused of buying a time, scoring and result system from a Swiss company at inflated cost. He has denied any wrongdoing.

Meanwhile, India's former telecom minister A. Raja, several bureaucrats and corporate officials are facing trial in connection with a multi-billion-dollar scandal involving the suspected below-price sale of mobile-phone radio waves or spectrum in 2008. Government auditors estimate the scandal cost the Indian exchequer some $39 billion dollars in lost revenue.

"(Hazare) was well-known in his state, but he catapulted to national fame thanks to his leadership in India against corruption in the context of these numerous, major corruption scans that have hit the headlines in recent months," said Hasan of Jawaharlal Nehru University.

For many Indians, corruption pervades at all levels of Indian society, even mundane processes such as receiving a driver's license or getting a death certificate -- anything that requires government approval.

"For example, if I'm starting a new venture like a resort, when I have to get permission to develop that land as a resort, I have to get a license, I have to go through government channels - there's a lot of corruption involved in getting the permission. If I have some good government connections, I can avoid those channels," Mohan said.

"There is corruption both high and low."

But for Mohan and thousands of other Indians, Hazare's long crusade has become their own.

"(Fighting corruption) used to be a drawing room discussion - now it's people in the streets," Mohan said.

[12th_Man]

what is the need of this Lokpal?

Agree..

It is naive to assume that a Lokpal (unelected body of supposedly un-corruptible individuals) would solve all the ills. Power, without checks and balances, has always led to "bad stuff"

So who wold solve it ? Me and you by posting on CV ?

[12th_Man]

Theoretically, everyone will be against corruption.
But, AH is trying to skirt the parliament and even the constitution.......to create a parallel channel, which is not necessary.
I am wondering, why doesn't he re-structure the CVC, though proper channel..........what is the need of this Lokpal?

Are you aware what else this guy has done before resorting to what he is doing now. If yes. Please enlightn the group.

[12th_Man]

huh so many negative remarks on this thread. Can't reply to every individual ? What have we as individuals done to stem out corruption. Apart from comforting ourselves under the umbrella of elected reprsentatives? Pls ask yourselves the question-
1. What is the single most cancer in India?
2.What have you done to eradicate it?
If we don't have one. Let us  take our kids to park and enjoy our lives. Are you ready to sacrifice everything you have today for India without blinking your eyes? If yes- Pls Act !
No. It is not Anna's way or highway- I am not questioing your freedom of speech. I am questioning your contribution to eliminate corruption from India(Me included).