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Blwe_torch

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The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« on: August 07, 2011, 05:53:12 AM »
The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
by Bodhisattwa Maity Express News : 07 Aug 2011 10:09:44 AM IST

AP File Photo
 
The recurring suspicion that the national cricket team is driven more by individual preferences than the collective interests of the group has surfaced yet again. The timing is rather unfortunate, when’s India 77-year-road to the top of Test rankings is being washed away by a very English tsunami that has also drowned reputations. It’s near-heresy, the most blasphemous question of all: has the great Sachin Tendulkar been protected at the expense of the team? More bitter still: do his performances in crisis situations match his credentials?
No recent incident underlines this gnawing doubt better than the batting line-up sequence after Abhinav Mukund was dismissed off the first ball of India’s reply to England’s 221 in the second Test of the ongoing series. With an injured Gautam Gambhir sitting out, Virender Sehwag recuperating from injury, and long-time No 3 Rahul Dravid already having come out to open, most followers justifiably expected Tendulkar, on the threshold of his hundredth international century, to defend India’s aspirations of world domination. God does not play dice; in walked VVS Laxman, the No 5.
India’s capitulation in the Nottingham Test has been dissected by every commentator, talking head and blogger; but for some reason, the focus has not been on why Tendulkar’s batting position is so non-negotiable. This is curious, and not the least because Tendulkar opens the batting in ODIs and T20s, and an opener in one form of the game should be good enough for the others. Former opener WV Raman argues that “it is from the No 4 position that he has scored the majority of his runs; there is no point in shuffling him around”. Hark back to 2006, however,  when Greg Chappell’s suggestion that ODI opener Ganguly, not Dravid, should open in the third Test against Pakistan at Karachi, led to an animated argument between the two batting stars right before the match. Was the same logic at play then?
What then was behind the promotion of Virender Sehwag as opener in Tests after he had clicked in ODIs? Says former opener Chetan Chauhan- “Tendulkar is technically equipped to face the new ball in all conditions. If he opened the innings in Tests, his record could possibly have been even better than it is now.” And yet, Dravid and Laxman continue to be thrust into unfamiliar positions while Tendulkar is allowed to stick to his batting position. This is not to say that Sachin is completely rigid about his batting position, as ex-teammate Pravin Amre reveals: “During India’s tour of South Africa in 1992-93, he volunteered to open the innings but the team management insisted that he bat at No 4 as he is best suited for that position. Then, in 1999 against New Zealand at Ahmedabad, he opened the innings in a bid to set a target for the opposition.” But Amre also says: “With his technique, he can play anywhere in the order and still score runs.” So why hasn’t Tendulkar been more flexible with his batting slot in crucial match situations, especially when statistics (see box) prove that Tendulkar at No 4 doesn’t really bring anything to the table that other No 4s haven’t?
Considering those who have played 5 Tests or more in that position since 1984, the No 4 spot in India’s Test line-up has been occupied by Mohinder Amarnath, Dilip Vengsarkar, Mohd. Azharuddin, Rahul Dravid, Sourav Ganguly and VVS Laxman, apart from Tendulkar. Taking certified minnows Bangladesh out of the equation, in 233 innings at No 4, Tendulkar averages 55.21. The others, together, have played 131 innings at No 4 for an overall average of 54.20. The comparison is not skewed as the number of innings is statistically large enough on both sides. In fact, all the other players named have their best average playing at No 4, meaning it is the middle-order Test position allowing most runs to be scored, what with demons in the pitch, if any, having been
ironed out, the ball having become older and less effective, and the bowlers tired. Unlike Ganguly and Laxman who, for a major part of their careers, have had to bat at numbers 5-7, Tendulkar has always had enough top batsmen left to lend support at the other end without having to worry about protecting the tail.
Similarly, the opener’s spot in ODIs gives Tendulkar the opportunity to take advantage of field restrictions early on, against a white ball that moves relatively less in the air than the red cherry used in Tests, and gives him enough time to score centuries without having to bear the burden of finishing strongly for
an Indian victory.
In other words, infrequent accusations that Tendulkar plays for personal milestones and not the team actually have a statistical face. That, however, does not rule out argument and there is much logic in Tendulkar batting where he does. As former cricketer Lalchand Rajput says: “In limited-overs cricket, your best batsman should ideally face the maximum number of deliveries possible. Ever since he was promoted to open the innings in ODIs, Tendulkar has helped India win numerous matches. Why would anyone want him to bat down the order in ODIs? Greg Chappell made him do that and India suffered because of his decision.”
It was during his controversial reign as coach (2005-07) that Guru Greg, in the first ever such instance, hinted at Tendulkar’s fallibility and forced him to play a few ODIs at No 4 instead of his preferred opening slot. What this did was bring debate about Tendulkar’s effectiveness into the public domain. Not surprisingly, the first of the media obits on Tendulkar’s career started appearing around that time. Of course, Tendulkar responded in style to criticism and has grown in stature in the eyes of the world at large.
A lot has been written about Tendulkar’s ‘selfishness’ or ‘selflessness’, depending on which side of the fence you are on but it is clear that for a major part of the first decade of his career, he carried on his shoulders the hopes of the team. However, from around the time Ganguly became captain in 2000, and India’s Eden Gardens turnaround of 2001 against Australia, certain things have changed. India had a settled and strong middle order, a reasonably strong bowling line-up, and most importantly, had the confidence to be serious contenders for the world crown. Crucially, India could fall back on a certain Najafgarhi with a bludgeon for a bat, who styled himself after Tendulkar. It is this second decade of Tendulkar’s career that injuries took a toll, forcing him out several times. His form started showing signs of mortality, though, he would recover every time and come back all guns blazing. “The people who question Tendulkar’s ability are either ignorant or have a personal agenda. Even some experts suffer from short-term memory. He has been playing for the past two decades and has come to India’s rescue on many occasions. But he too is human and can fail. Unfortunately, when he fails, people pounce on him,” says ex-cricketer Arshad Ayub. There is, of course, much sense in this observation.
It doesn’t slay, however, the demon of doubt about Tendulkar’s impact on Team India’s fortunes. In the new millennium, he has scored 12 Test centuries against all opposition in matches that India has won, while 8 other tons have fetched draws or losses (success rate: 60 per cent) in comparison to another modern great, Ricky Ponting, in whose case, 21 of the 29 centuries he has scored since 2000 have resulted in wins (success rate: 72.4 per cent). The numbers are starker still in ODIs since 2000, where 23 out of 25 centuries by the Australian have resulted in team victories while only 12 of Tendulkar’s 21 centuries have resulted in victory for Team India. While it is true that the Australian team Ponting played for was far superior than the Indian team Tendulkar played for, and thus can be used in the latter’s defence, further analysis reveals more hiccups. In the last 10 years, India has won 102 of 186 ODIs played with Tendulkar in the team, a success rate of 54 per cent. Without him in the same period, India won 66 out of 124 ODIs, a success rate of 53 per cent. On this basis, Tendulkar’s presence has only had a marginal impact on India’s winning record. Contrast this with Sehwag, whose 14 centuries have resulted in 13 ODI victories for India.
Moreover, when he does play, if Tendulkar scores between 50 and 99, India has won 29 of 43 ODIs, a success rate of 67 per cent. With Tendulkar going on to score a century, out of 21 occasions, India’s wins have been a paltry 12 (success rate: 57 per cent). Clearly, it suits India that he scores a 50 rather than a hundred.
Further analysis shows what many have noted — after building the momentum, as he approaches personal milestones in the form of centuries in ODIs, Tendulkar does indeed slow down, thus pulling down India’s chances. Cricket is a game of 11 players per team but star players are expected to contribute more in crucial situations. After all, that is why they are stars and get top billing, a huge fan following, higher pay brackets within the team, better advertising endorsements, etc.
Tendulkar, undoubtedly, is the biggest star in the team. And there is much that can be said in his favour. But this star hasn’t always matched the glitter of his reputation.

Modern-day grace

Where then do we place SRT in the pantheon of sporting gods? Sir Don Bradman, the greatest of them all, has himself stated that Tendulkar’s batting reminds him of his own. With such endorsement, little is left to comment about Tendulkar’s batting style. That he has brought unbridled joy to the hearts of millions in India and the world goes without saying. However, in terms of the impact his career has had on the collective
consciousness of the Indian nation, curiously, more than the Don, India’s Little Master has increasingly come to resemble another legend — the original god of cricket, William Gilbert Grace.
Unlike the Don, who was a working-class hero, Grace was post-industrial Britain’s middle-class hero, just as Tendulkar is the middle-class hero of post-liberalisation India.
If WG Grace was the first ever sportsman to do an advertisement, Tendulkar has been the epitome of the marketable sportsman, with his cherubic face, non-controversial lifestyle, mountain of records and fans and textbook batting style. He is the first cricketer who has come close to challenging
the domination of golfers, boxers and tennis stars in the global advert stakes. Like Pele, Ali, the Don and WG Grace, his name is recognised by even those to whom the sport they played has no meaning. He has been bracketed along with Zidane, Federer, Schumacher and Woods by the megabrands at the top of the sporting heap. And he has outlasted them all.
Quite like WG, who played competitive cricket till well into his 66th year, Tendulkar, who had once hinted at retirement after the 2011 World Cup, seems to have got new wind in his sails after the World Cup victory. And if Grace, the arch Victorian, was notorious for his regular fudging of travel compensation
data to extract the extra buck from the teams he played for —ending up earning even more than the professionals whom he, as an amateur, claimed to detest — Tendulkar has been reported to have claimed tax relief as an ‘actor’ for the advertisements he has done, besides claiming duty benefits for the Ferrari Modena that was presented to him by Fiat through Michael Schumacher for his services to the brand as a ‘gift’.
Meanwhile, the fawning industry that he has knowingly or unknowingly spawned around him, including TV commentators, experts, media persons, administrators, politicians, devoted authors — the whole shebang—has proceeded from enshrining him as god, to seeking the Bharat Ratna for their superman, to even demanding his face to replace that of *hi’s in new 100/500-rupee notes. In a way, that would be quite appropriate, for no one has come to represent the money-making potential in liberalised India more than Sachin Tendulkar.

http://expressbuzz.com/cricket/cricket-features/the-truth-about-sachin-tendulkar/301002.html
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Blwe_torch

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2011, 05:56:21 AM »
Nice article!
Although I am a die-hard SRT fan........some of these issues, mentioned in the article are very relevant too.
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dextrous

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2011, 02:01:14 PM »
looks like the writer is one of our own!
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2011, 03:19:58 PM »
looks like the writer is one of our own!

who???
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dextrous

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2011, 04:02:38 PM »
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2011, 04:11:25 PM »
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2011, 08:45:43 PM »
I don't see that SRT is better adapted than RD to open the innings. However, once RD is opening, it is unclear to me as to why SRT should not be coming in one down. Not to say that this is a shoo in, and the counter-arguments are sensible but far from totally compelling. I could see the decision going one way or the other .... and it is strange if it has never gone the way of SRT coming one down. Would be interesting to see what really happens in the thinktank meetings.


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ganavk

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2011, 10:04:48 PM »
Quote
I don't see that SRT is better adapted than RD to open the innings
.
Interesting .. why is that so ? is it because RD is at # 3 ? I think there is compelling argument for SRT to put up his hands up and open especially considering how much he prefers to open in one dayers!
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Cernunnos

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2011, 10:16:04 PM »
I don't see that SRT is better adapted than RD to open the innings. However, once RD is opening, it is unclear to me as to why SRT should not be coming in one down. Not to say that this is a shoo in, and the counter-arguments are sensible but far from totally compelling. I could see the decision going one way or the other .... and it is strange if it has never gone the way of SRT coming one down. Would be interesting to see what really happens in the thinktank meetings.


In his entire career of 180 odd tests, SRT has NEVER batted at #3, not even by mistake. If this has not been a conscious ploy to avoid the new red ball at whatever costs, then I don't know what is. Every other batsman have shuffled around as per team needs. Justifiably, people can make the case that SRT is somewhere between intransigent and selfish.

The article also points out that everyone else at #4 put together averaged the same as SRT. This is a compelling stat. If those supposedly inferior to SRT end up producing as much runs from that position as him, then should SRT be batting somewhere else? Or is it that that #4 position is the easiest position to bat, which is why he's not moving?


 
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 07:34:34 AM »
the point is, as everyone has pointed out, and even we here can agree, SRT has the best technique against all kinds of balls... whether he has the guts or the honesty, is another question...
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 03:20:23 PM »
Quote
Considering those who have played 5 Tests or more in that position since 1984, the No 4 spot in India’s Test line-up has been occupied by Mohinder Amarnath, Dilip Vengsarkar, Mohd. Azharuddin, Rahul Dravid, Sourav Ganguly and VVS Laxman, apart from Tendulkar. Taking certified minnows Bangladesh out of the equation, in 233 innings at No 4, Tendulkar averages 55.21. The others, together, have played 131 innings at No 4 for an overall average of 54.20. The comparison is not skewed as the number of innings is statistically large enough on both sides. In fact, all the other players named have their best average playing at No 4, meaning it is the middle-order Test position allowing most runs to be scored, what with demons in the pitch, if any, having been
ironed out, the ball having become older and less effective, and the bowlers tired.

It would be useful to do a comparison of the opposition strength, nature of the pitch, and runs scored overall when Tendulkar batted at 4 and others batted at 4 to make the assertion that the others have been as good as him.

Quote
Unlike Ganguly and Laxman who, for a major part of their careers, have had to bat at numbers 5-7, Tendulkar has always had enough top batsmen left to lend support at the other end without having to worry about protecting the tail.

Position 7 is an exaggeration. Laxman has played 9 innings at number 7, Ganguly has played 3 innings. Tendulkar has played 4 innings.

At number 6, Laxman has played 66 innings, Ganguly 47 and Tendulkar 20.

To validate the assertion that "protecting the tail" has really affected their contributions, we need to see in how many of those innings Laxman and Ganguly (and even Tendulkar) were batting when number 8 arrived at the crease. From memory,  I think Laxman has had the short end of the stick far more than the others.

Also, Tendulkar's not batting at position 3 is in large part due to Dravid coveting that role and thriving at it barring the 3 year slump when his reputation and past achievements gave him a free pass. Dravid blocked Laxman out of that position in spite of Laxman's heroics there. And regarding the assertion of Laxman's relative weakness when facing up to swing - does anyone seriously doubt that he would have mastered handling it if he owned that position?

Finally, please check out how many times another hero of his days - Gundappa Vishwanath - batted at number 3 in his 91 test career. No one would ever accuse Vishy of being either selfish or afraid of facing menacing fast bowling.

Quote
Similarly, the opener’s spot in ODIs gives Tendulkar the opportunity to take advantage of field restrictions early on, against a white ball that moves relatively less in the air than the red cherry used in Tests, and gives him enough time to score centuries without having to bear the burden of finishing strongly for
an Indian victory.

That is an imbalanced way to view the reason to make him open. For building an innings, who would you rather have facing maximum balls? Which of his peers (Laxman, Ganguly, Dravid) scores quick enough in all conditions and is athletic enough to run quick singles and rotate strike at will? (Note that Sehwag, when he has played ODIs, has invariably opened).

Quote
In the new millennium, he has scored 12 Test centuries against all opposition in matches that India has won, while 8 other tons have fetched draws or losses (success rate: 60 per cent) in comparison to another modern great, Ricky Ponting, in whose case, 21 of the 29 centuries he has scored since 2000 have resulted in wins (success rate: 72.4 per cent).

If the new millenium starts on Jan 1st 2000:

Ricky Ponting has scored 33 centuries not 29. When he has scored centuries, Australia have won 22 matches, drawn 5 and lost 3 (73% win rate for his country when he scores a century). And in the 119 tests he has played in that period, Australia have won an amazing 79 (66% wins).

In the same period, Tendulkar has scored 29 centuries. When he has scored centuries, India have won 16 matches, drawn 9 and lost 4 (55% win rate for his country when he scored a century). And in the 106 tests he has played in the period, India have won 43 (40%).

If I haven't made any unintentional summary/query errors here, it proves that Tendulkar's centuries have improved his country's winning chances to a greater extent than Ponting's has! A single batsman cannot win a game - the bowlers need to do their bit too.

Quote
The numbers are starker still in ODIs since 2000, where 23 out of 25 centuries by the Australian have resulted in team victories while only 12 of Tendulkar’s 21 centuries have resulted in victory for Team India.

I am not going to repeat what I did in tests, but there is a good chance a similar effect will be at play.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 03:24:36 PM »
Quote
Further analysis shows what many have noted — after building the momentum, as he approaches personal milestones in the form of centuries in ODIs, Tendulkar does indeed slow down, thus pulling down India’s chances.

A relative comparison with say a Ponting or a Kallis would help here too. Sehwag and Gilchrist would be rare outliers.
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2011, 07:34:59 PM »
I just wrote a reply this morning, but lost on the webpage it due to some stupidity on my part. I will try to get back to a detailed reply later after this, but will try to give a gist of what I was saying:

I don't see that SRT is better adapted than RD to open the innings. However, once RD is opening, it is unclear to me as to why SRT should not be coming in one down. Not to say that this is a shoo in, and the counter-arguments are sensible but far from totally compelling. I could see the decision going one way or the other .... and it is strange if it has never gone the way of SRT coming one down. Would be interesting to see what really happens in the thinktank meetings.


In his entire career of 180 odd tests, SRT has NEVER batted at #3, not even by mistake. If this has not been a conscious ploy to avoid the new red ball at whatever costs, then I don't know what is. Every other batsman have shuffled around as per team needs. Justifiably, people can make the case that SRT is somewhere between intransigent and selfish.
I would say that there are situations like this test, when that is a fair question to ask. Why did SRT not come out at No. 3?
Quote
The article also points out that everyone else at #4 put together averaged the same as SRT. This is a compelling stat. If those supposedly inferior to SRT end up producing as much runs from that position as him, then should SRT be batting somewhere else? Or is it that that #4 position is the easiest position to bat, which is why he's not moving?
(a) There is more to cricket and batting than averages. Viv and Chanderpaul have a similar batting average (and a similar number of centuries to boot) after a "statistically  signifcant" number of games. I hope no one in this forum would ask if one should put them on a similar footing. For example consider Dravid, who has played a good number of innings at No. 4 and done
well in terms of average. But the runs were scored a strike rate well below SRT. This is important, yes, even in tests. Because in some cases, batsmen in the middle order need to seize the advantage by piling on runs. It helps to have someone who can change gears. On the other hand RD has a much more defence oriented game, and was the saviour holding up one end after our openers used to depart early on. So, I would not say that playing Dravid at No 3. and SRT at No. 4 always, was a bad or suspicious idea.

(b) While the averages have been corrected for BD (minnows), no such correction was applied for pitches. But we all know that this is a much bigger factor than BD (since one plays only so many games against BD, but many home games and away). I lost my post but I tried to do a Asia vs rest of the world comparison. This is an important factor, since for most batsmen, their averages plumett outside the subcontinent. SRT's average is taken roughly over the fraction of cases where India plays away. For many of the others that is not so. The averages are also focussed on small times during the  player's career which are more prone to statistical fluctuation (correlation of form).
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2011, 07:38:17 PM »
the point is, as everyone has pointed out, and even we here can agree, SRT has the best technique against all kinds of balls... whether he has the guts or the honesty, is another question...
Not sure what you mean or who everybody includes. I would have said that in keeping a wicket intact, RD has the better technique  (also reply to ganavk as to why I would have RD open in tests rather than SRT). On the other hand, if you mean overall, SRT has the best technique I would tend to agree (though again that would not cover everybody).
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 08:38:06 PM »

Also, Tendulkar's not batting at position 3 is in large part due to Dravid coveting that role and thriving at it barring the 3 year slump when his reputation and past achievements gave him a free pass. Dravid blocked Laxman out of that position in spite of Laxman's heroics there. And regarding the assertion of Laxman's relative weakness when facing up to swing - does anyone seriously doubt that he would have mastered handling it if he owned that position?

Finally, please check out how many times another hero of his days - Gundappa Vishwanath - batted at number 3 in his 91 test career. No one would ever accuse Vishy of being either selfish or afraid of facing menacing fast bowling.


Let me first clarify that I'm not the author of that article.. Having said that, I think the point being made is why doesn't SRT bat at #3 when when RD opens.

You make an excellent point with GRV. Now the equivalent question is has GRV avoided coming at #3 when the regular #3 were pushed to open? I think that opportunity didn't arise, because India always used to play with regular openers. The #3s in the batting lineup with GRV I think were DBV, Wadekar and the Amarnath brothers. I think DBV is the only of them who opened when GRV was playing, but that was when he made his debut as an opener.
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 08:52:45 PM »
I just wrote a reply this morning, but lost on the webpage it due to some stupidity on my part. I will try to get back to a detailed reply later after this, but will try to give a gist of what I was saying:

I don't see that SRT is better adapted than RD to open the innings. However, once RD is opening, it is unclear to me as to why SRT should not be coming in one down. Not to say that this is a shoo in, and the counter-arguments are sensible but far from totally compelling. I could see the decision going one way or the other .... and it is strange if it has never gone the way of SRT coming one down. Would be interesting to see what really happens in the thinktank meetings.


In his entire career of 180 odd tests, SRT has NEVER batted at #3, not even by mistake. If this has not been a conscious ploy to avoid the new red ball at whatever costs, then I don't know what is. Every other batsman have shuffled around as per team needs. Justifiably, people can make the case that SRT is somewhere between intransigent and selfish.
I would say that there are situations like this test, when that is a fair question to ask. Why did SRT not come out at No. 3?
Quote
The article also points out that everyone else at #4 put together averaged the same as SRT. This is a compelling stat. If those supposedly inferior to SRT end up producing as much runs from that position as him, then should SRT be batting somewhere else? Or is it that that #4 position is the easiest position to bat, which is why he's not moving?
(a) There is more to cricket and batting than averages. Viv and Chanderpaul have a similar batting average (and a similar number of centuries to boot) after a "statistically  signifcant" number of games. I hope no one in this forum would ask if one should put them on a similar footing. For example consider Dravid, who has played a good number of innings at No. 4 and done
well in terms of average. But the runs were scored a strike rate well below SRT. This is important, yes, even in tests. Because in some cases, batsmen in the middle order need to seize the advantage by piling on runs. It helps to have someone who can change gears. On the other hand RD has a much more defence oriented game, and was the saviour holding up one end after our openers used to depart early on. So, I would not say that playing Dravid at No 3. and SRT at No. 4 always, was a bad or suspicious idea.

Good points, but I understand that the question is different. The question is why shouldn't the natural order of RD followed by SRT not be followed when RD opens?

Quote
(b) While the averages have been corrected for BD (minnows), no such correction was applied for pitches. But we all know that this is a much bigger factor than BD (since one plays only so many games against BD, but many home games and away). I lost my post but I tried to do a Asia vs rest of the world comparison. This is an important factor, since for most batsmen, their averages plumett outside the subcontinent.

I did the analysis for #4 but only looking at outside Asia.
SRT at #4 outside Asia: 52 avg in 93 innings
Others at #4 outside Asia: 51 avg in 49 innings

Quote

SRT's average is taken roughly over the fraction of cases where India plays away. For many of the others that is not so. The averages are also focussed on small times during the  player's career which are more prone to statistical fluctuation (correlation of form).


One can come up with all sorts of explanations & additional filters. The comparison will never satisfy all your criterion because SRT has hogged the position so much, while others only got fleeting chances. Yet, it is uncanny that in spite of your asking for additional filters (outside Asia) the comparison holds.

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 11:23:25 PM »
I just wrote a reply this morning, but lost on the webpage it due to some stupidity on my part. I will try to get back to a detailed reply later after this, but will try to give a gist of what I was saying:

I don't see that SRT is better adapted than RD to open the innings. However, once RD is opening, it is unclear to me as to why SRT should not be coming in one down. Not to say that this is a shoo in, and the counter-arguments are sensible but far from totally compelling. I could see the decision going one way or the other .... and it is strange if it has never gone the way of SRT coming one down. Would be interesting to see what really happens in the thinktank meetings.


In his entire career of 180 odd tests, SRT has NEVER batted at #3, not even by mistake. If this has not been a conscious ploy to avoid the new red ball at whatever costs, then I don't know what is. Every other batsman have shuffled around as per team needs. Justifiably, people can make the case that SRT is somewhere between intransigent and selfish.
I would say that there are situations like this test, when that is a fair question to ask. Why did SRT not come out at No. 3?
Quote
The article also points out that everyone else at #4 put together averaged the same as SRT. This is a compelling stat. If those supposedly inferior to SRT end up producing as much runs from that position as him, then should SRT be batting somewhere else? Or is it that that #4 position is the easiest position to bat, which is why he's not moving?
(a) There is more to cricket and batting than averages. Viv and Chanderpaul have a similar batting average (and a similar number of centuries to boot) after a "statistically  signifcant" number of games. I hope no one in this forum would ask if one should put them on a similar footing. For example consider Dravid, who has played a good number of innings at No. 4 and done
well in terms of average. But the runs were scored a strike rate well below SRT. This is important, yes, even in tests. Because in some cases, batsmen in the middle order need to seize the advantage by piling on runs. It helps to have someone who can change gears. On the other hand RD has a much more defence oriented game, and was the saviour holding up one end after our openers used to depart early on. So, I would not say that playing Dravid at No 3. and SRT at No. 4 always, was a bad or suspicious idea.

Good points, but I understand that the question is different. The question is why shouldn't the natural order of RD followed by SRT not be followed when RD opens?
I personally believe that SRT would have been a better person to come in at No.  3 in the last test. On the other hand, I also understand that there are many who would have liked to see Laxman as a regular No. 3. I think there were a number of posts asking for this a couple of years back. As I said in the first post in this thread, what I would find funny is if the thinktank decided on the same thing everytime in a situation like this. However, it is not quite true that this happens all the time. I dug up all of RD's innings as opener (It has happened in 13 matches). Aside from the match in Nottingham, three of the matches don't count:
Lords 2001: SRT could not have bat before No. 5
Hamilton 2009: We won by 10 wickets with a paltry score to overhaul
Lahore 2006: Flattest of flat pitches No 3. technically Laxman remained 0 NO as match was drawn.

Now the first four matches where RD opened were against SAF (home and away). This was when SG was fresh and had made No. 3 his spot post his dream debut.  I will comment that in 1997, RD moved to 1 down from opening, and SRT moved from No. 4 to 5 to allow SG the No. 4 spot. The next few came when Laxman made No. 3 his position, post that match. Of course, since Laxman's promotion in that match proved to be a masterstroke, we have seen much wrangling about who deserves credit on these boards. But, I am yet to see someone blame the same people for not promoting SRT to No. 3. Success, failure ... fathers ... The next few times Dravid opened, it started on the flat pitches of India and Pakistan (yes, the first two tests were played on featherbeds). Lots of people were happy that Laxman was scoring well at No. 3. This continued in Australia where Lax continued to perform, but RD finally moved off the opening spot.


So, in many ways the situation in this match was new. Laxman was someone who had played often as No. 3 and could have seemed a good choice. I would  disagree, but who knows maybe Laxman could have scored a century as well.
Quote
Quote
(b) While the averages have been corrected for BD (minnows), no such correction was applied for pitches. But we all know that this is a much bigger factor than BD (since one plays only so many games against BD, but many home games and away). I lost my post but I tried to do a Asia vs rest of the world comparison. This is an important factor, since for most batsmen, their averages plumett outside the subcontinent.

I did the analysis for #4 but only looking at outside Asia.
SRT at #4 outside Asia: 52 avg in 93 innings
Others at #4 outside Asia: 51 avg in 49 innings

Quote

SRT's average is taken roughly over the fraction of cases where India plays away. For many of the others that is not so. The averages are also focussed on small times during the  player's career which are more prone to statistical fluctuation (correlation of form).


One can come up with all sorts of explanations & additional filters. The comparison will never satisfy all your criterion because SRT has hogged the position so much, while others only got fleeting chances. Yet, it is uncanny that in spite of your asking for additional filters (outside Asia) the comparison holds.
I think there are many coincidences here ... regarding the others. I do feel that if RD established himself as No. 4, he would have a comparable average (slightly more or slightly less than what SRT has), and SRT at No. 3 would have probably had a slightly lesser average than RD. And our No. 3 would have a better strike rate and No.  4 a worse strike rate. I think that would fit the scheme of things slightly less than our current situation. (Incidentally is there a cricinfo filter which does exactly this or did you check by adding scores etc. )
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2011, 11:37:26 PM »
The argument that SRT's centuries do not contribute to Indian win is stupid. It doen't indicates SRT sucks it indicates other sucked in the match and hence we couldn't win despite him making century.

By that logic look at the recent two test matches in England. We lost both despite RD making centuries in each. Does it mean RD sucked? No. It means others sucked.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 04:39:48 AM by teamindia »
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 01:25:12 AM »
By that logic look at the recent to test matches in England. We lost both despite RD making centuries in each. Does it mean RD sucked? No. It means others sucked.

Good point!

SRT is no doubt great but the over-the-top Indian press pesters every player to say he is the absolute best "better than Bradman" etc. and gives him a mantle of greatness that is much bigger than even he deserves. Then they will talk about all the pressure on him. I suspect that some of the fellow players may be prone to exaggerations to improve their marketability in the IPL. Barring that disastrous slump, Dravid is not far behind and Laxman's incredible contributions have this weird correlation to degree of difficulty! As has been said many times, we are very fortunate to still have these 3 in the team and we might as well savor it when it lasts as it is going to be a very cold winter afterwards.
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 02:38:56 AM »
I think the point being made is why doesn't SRT bat at #3 when when RD opens.

Just exploring what happened when Dravid opened. He has opened in 13 tests.

One of those tests - in Hamilton - was when Dravid opened in the second innings and India scored 39 runs to win the test match. He did not open in the first innings. Tendulkar did not bat in that second innings as India won by 10 wickets. This should not really construe a "Dravid opening" test match.

Another of those tests was the famous knock of 128 at the flat road in Lahore (when Sehwag made 254). India were left at 410 for 1 in their first innings as we recall. Tendulkar didn't even bat.

So that leaves 11 other tests.

2 of these are in this ongoing England series where Tendulkar has fizzled out. In the first test at Lord's Dravid opened in the second innings because of Gambhir's injury.

That leaves 9 other tests to look at further when Dravid opened. In 3 of these Ganguly played at number 3 (and basically fizzled out with scores of 6, 0, 23, 30, 1 and 13). In 6 others Laxman played at number 3 and did pretty well (32, 29, 69, 11, 90, 26, 42, 109, 20, 21). Sehwag batted at 3 in one innings and scored 5.

Tendulkar scored 4 centuries in these 9 tests when batting at number 4 and allowing someone else to play at number 3. 3 of he 4 centuries were above 150.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 02:41:01 AM by 傻屄 »
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 04:37:20 AM »
I think the point being made is why doesn't SRT bat at #3 when when RD opens.

Just exploring what happened when Dravid opened. He has opened in 13 tests.

One of those tests - in Hamilton - was when Dravid opened in the second innings and India scored 39 runs to win the test match. He did not open in the first innings. Tendulkar did not bat in that second innings as India won by 10 wickets. This should not really construe a "Dravid opening" test match.

Another of those tests was the famous knock of 128 at the flat road in Lahore (when Sehwag made 254). India were left at 410 for 1 in their first innings as we recall. Tendulkar didn't even bat.

So that leaves 11 other tests.

2 of these are in this ongoing England series where Tendulkar has fizzled out. In the first test at Lord's Dravid opened in the second innings because of Gambhir's injury.

That leaves 9 other tests to look at further when Dravid opened. In 3 of these Ganguly played at number 3 (and basically fizzled out with scores of 6, 0, 23, 30, 1 and 13). In 6 others Laxman played at number 3 and did pretty well (32, 29, 69, 11, 90, 26, 42, 109, 20, 21). Sehwag batted at 3 in one innings and scored 5.

Tendulkar scored 4 centuries in these 9 tests when batting at number 4 and allowing someone else to play at number 3. 3 of he 4 centuries were above 150.
He he ... I had the same thought ... (see the post above), where I was trying to look at when Dravid opened. I think I would say that the Nottingham test is quite different from the rest of cases. The cases where SG came in at one down started at the heels of his dream debut as a one down batsman. After Eden, Laxman played at one down till Dravid took over the spot.
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Cernunnos

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 07:31:34 AM »
I think the point being made is why doesn't SRT bat at #3 when when RD opens.

Just exploring what happened when Dravid opened. He has opened in 13 tests.

One of those tests - in Hamilton - was when Dravid opened in the second innings and India scored 39 runs to win the test match. He did not open in the first innings. Tendulkar did not bat in that second innings as India won by 10 wickets. This should not really construe a "Dravid opening" test match.

Another of those tests was the famous knock of 128 at the flat road in Lahore (when Sehwag made 254). India were left at 410 for 1 in their first innings as we recall. Tendulkar didn't even bat.

So that leaves 11 other tests.

2 of these are in this ongoing England series where Tendulkar has fizzled out. In the first test at Lord's Dravid opened in the second innings because of Gambhir's injury.

That leaves 9 other tests to look at further when Dravid opened. In 3 of these Ganguly played at number 3 (and basically fizzled out with scores of 6, 0, 23, 30, 1 and 13). In 6 others Laxman played at number 3 and did pretty well (32, 29, 69, 11, 90, 26, 42, 109, 20, 21). Sehwag batted at 3 in one innings and scored 5.

Tendulkar scored 4 centuries in these 9 tests when batting at number 4 and allowing someone else to play at number 3. 3 of he 4 centuries were above 150.

Splendid. So others were forced to fill the vacuum at #3 and manage to somehow cling on to that position for a limited time, and that justifies SRT to sit tight in the comfort of his shelter. Let's take the SG debut example. Here you have a guy who has already played 39 tests and come off scoring a hundred in his last innings. You have two debutants thrown at the wolves. The ball is swinging and seaming, and this seasoned batsman has the finest technique. Instead of taking the responsibility, in comes the sacrificial lamb who has always batted #4-5 in domestics.

One can understand if historically that #4 position is problematic for us. The stats show it is not, rather it's the most fruitful batting position. Here are some stats I culled out for other teams in the same period at #4

Kallis - 49.02 in 136 innings
others - 40.64 in 137 innings

Mahela - 57.06 in 133 innings
others - 42.73 in 144 innings

KevinP - 62.41 in 90 innings
others - 36.87 in 406 innings

Lara - 51.19 in 144 innings
others - 35.22 in 222 innings

So one would understand if the above batsmen stuck to their #4 slot. Yet all these guys (barring KP) have moved up and down the order at some period to adjust to the team requirement. Sure in SRT's case he's been lucky that an RD came along and basically owned the #3 (note RD was forced into that position). But there is little justification why he has never had to come at #3.
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2011, 02:10:45 PM »
Nice digging Cern. Very good stats for comparison.

The question I too would have is, when RD was asked to move out of #3 spot and another batsman (other than SRT) asked to move in to #3 spot, did the team management knew before hand that the new batsman would be a success there?

If the answer is No then who would have a better chance of succeeding at #3 spot? SRT or any other batsman? There lies the answer.


The argument that SRT's centuries do not contribute to Indian win is stupid. It doen't indicates SRT sucks it indicates other sucked in the match and hence we couldn't win despite him making century.

By that logic look at the recent two test matches in England. We lost both despite RD making centuries in each. Does it mean RD sucked? No. It means others sucked.
Agree with this point. It's impossible to win a Test unless your bowlers take 20 wickets. IMO it's the bowlers who win you Tests. However there is a rider here. Batsmen can affect the outcome of a Test in the 4th inning. It's there alone where batsmen can win-lose-draw the game.


This might take the conversation elsewhere but I compiled some Stats for a few player. These are their figures in 4th innings, when they have scored 50 or more runs. I believe that you gotta score at least 50 runs to have some impact on the outcome, else either you didn't do much to win, or your bowlers were brilliant and you didn't have a big enough target.

>= 50 in 4th inning
          Tot
         inns    inns    NO   runs   avg    100   win   loss   draw
SRT     52       9       4    715   143.00     3      4       4       1        Tendulkar
RD       53     10       5    720   144.00    1      3       2       5        Dravid
VVS     34      7        2    502   100.40    1      3       3       1        Laxman
SG       32      4       3    315   315.00     1      2       1       0        Ganguly

BCL     46      9       2    783   111.85     2      3       5       1        Lara
JK       42     11       5    733   122.16     1      5       4       2        Kallis

RP     39      9        7   835   417.50   4      6       1       2        Ponting
SW     31      2        0    147     73.50     0      0       0       2        Steve Waugh


This chart is eye opening!!!! Ponting is head and shoulders above anyone else when it comes to winning games with your bat in 4th inning. Sure, a lot depends on other batsmen too but you gotta make your own impact. Also, there is a notion that Lara is better than Tendulkar in winning games. Not sure about other situations but he surely isn't better in winning games in 4th innings. Here's another set of 4th inning figures of above players, irrespective of their score:

All 4th inning figures:
         inns    NO     runs     avg    100   win    loss   draw
SRT    52     15    1439   38.89    3      17     24      11      Tendulkar
RD      53      18    1476    42.17     1      18      22      13       Dravid
VVS    34      10     970    40.41      1       7      18       9        Laxman
SG      32       9      864    37.56      1       9      17       6        Ganguly

BCL    46       5     1440    35.12      2       9      28       9        Lara
JK       42     14    1229    43.89      1      22      16       4        Kallis

RP    39      14   1362    54.48    4      22      11       6       Ponting
SW     31       7      613    25.54       0     10      13       8       Steve Waugh
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 02:25:39 PM »
Splendid. So others were forced to fill the vacuum at #3 and manage to somehow cling on to that position for a limited time, and that justifies SRT to sit tight in the comfort of his shelter.

If that is the way you saw it and interpret it, good for you.

First off those 13 tests where Dravid opened should get whittled down to 11 as I mentioned. The numbers then became rather small.

Yet, except when Laxman played at number 3, if you go through those 11 tests, you will find that the the score when the first wicket fell and the second wicket fell (i.e. Tendulkar comes in to bat) was invariably not much different. Laxman is a solid batsman who would have thrived even better at number 3 than number 5, so it is not surprising. So for those who theorize that Tendulkar tried to "hide", he did not have much luck except when Laxman provided the fig leaf.

Quote
Let's take the SG debut example. Here you have a guy who has already played 39 tests and come off scoring a hundred in his last innings. You have two debutants thrown at the wolves. The ball is swinging and seaming, and this seasoned batsman has the finest technique. Instead of taking the responsibility, in comes the sacrificial lamb who has always batted #4-5 in domestics.

First, I would rather ask why that "sacrifical lamb" who "always batted" #4-5 in domestics did not consider batting higher in domestics if he was good enough to make it to the Indian team? Were the openers of the domestic team he played for particularly productive and consistent that #3 came in when the score was settled? Why shouldn't the batsman with the better technique play higher to take the challenge head on? What a selfish lamb.

Second, you should also castigate Azharuddin, the captain for batting at #5 when the ball was seaming and swinging and not only drafting the sacrificial lamb ahead of him but also the selfish hero.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 02:27:18 PM by 傻屄 »
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 02:39:20 PM »
You know what lets wait for SRT to return to India and then send him to the land of Rosogolla - we will then tie him to a stake and start a fire around him, but not before he is made to write 3000 times on a stamp paper that Sourav Ganguly is the greatest cricketer to have walked this earth and I erred by scoring runs as I did PLAYING CRICKET AT ALL, I should have merely gone to Eden Gardens with a placard proclaiming what Iam writing now....
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 02:58:37 PM »
but not before he is made to write 3000 times on a stamp paper that Sourav Ganguly is the greatest cricketer to have walked this earth and I erred by scoring runs as I did PLAYING CRICKET AT ALL, I should have merely gone to Eden Gardens with a placard proclaiming what Iam writing now....

After that Telgi crook, stamp paper is electronically managed and printed out from a computer using a Word template. They call it e-stamp paper now.

Tendulkar will say "rasago-aila" and his brother will use Tendulkar's name and reputation to get access to that Word template and write a macro so that those 3000 repeat writes you suggest will be automatically handled. And this will be exposed as the "Truth about Tendulkar's contrition", so he will fail again.
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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 03:45:21 PM »
I think the point being made is why doesn't SRT bat at #3 when when RD opens.

Just exploring what happened when Dravid opened. He has opened in 13 tests.

One of those tests - in Hamilton - was when Dravid opened in the second innings and India scored 39 runs to win the test match. He did not open in the first innings. Tendulkar did not bat in that second innings as India won by 10 wickets. This should not really construe a "Dravid opening" test match.

Another of those tests was the famous knock of 128 at the flat road in Lahore (when Sehwag made 254). India were left at 410 for 1 in their first innings as we recall. Tendulkar didn't even bat.

So that leaves 11 other tests.

2 of these are in this ongoing England series where Tendulkar has fizzled out. In the first test at Lord's Dravid opened in the second innings because of Gambhir's injury.

That leaves 9 other tests to look at further when Dravid opened. In 3 of these Ganguly played at number 3 (and basically fizzled out with scores of 6, 0, 23, 30, 1 and 13). In 6 others Laxman played at number 3 and did pretty well (32, 29, 69, 11, 90, 26, 42, 109, 20, 21). Sehwag batted at 3 in one innings and scored 5.

Tendulkar scored 4 centuries in these 9 tests when batting at number 4 and allowing someone else to play at number 3. 3 of he 4 centuries were above 150.

Splendid. So others were forced to fill the vacuum at #3 and manage to somehow cling on to that position for a limited time, and that justifies SRT to sit tight in the comfort of his shelter. Let's take the SG debut example. Here you have a guy who has already played 39 tests and come off scoring a hundred in his last innings. You have two debutants thrown at the wolves. The ball is swinging and seaming, and this seasoned batsman has the finest technique. Instead of taking the responsibility, in comes the sacrificial lamb who has always batted #4-5 in domestics.

One can understand if historically that #4 position is problematic for us. The stats show it is not, rather it's the most fruitful batting position. Here are some stats I culled out for other teams in the same period at #4

Kallis - 49.02 in 136 innings
others - 40.64 in 137 innings

Mahela - 57.06 in 133 innings
others - 42.73 in 144 innings

KevinP - 62.41 in 90 innings
others - 36.87 in 406 innings

Lara - 51.19 in 144 innings
others - 35.22 in 222 innings

So one would understand if the above batsmen stuck to their #4 slot. Yet all these guys (barring KP) have moved up and down the order at some period to adjust to the team requirement. Sure in SRT's case he's been lucky that an RD came along and basically owned the #3 (note RD was forced into that position). But there is little justification why he has never had to come at #3.
If you want to talk about sacrificial lambs, may I point out that time and again our middle order batsmen have refused opening, and have put in sacrificial lambs such as Manoj Prabhakar, Nayan Mongia, Sanjay Bangar, Deep Dasgupta, Yuvraj Singh, W. V. Raman (he did not start out as a batsman), Virender Sehwag, ... OK I am tired. The list of captains include Vengsarkar, Srikkant, Azhar, Sachin, Ganguly, Dravid. At all times the sacrificial lambs "protected" the middle  order batsmen with a job of playing off the new ball. And it was not just Sachin, but all the middle order batsmen (and we have always claimed to have good ones).

You can interpret it the way you like, but this was the strategy we believed in. If you did not have a specialist who was up to the job, it was better to have a lesser batsman do the job than to bring in your best set of batsmen. While you may think it reeks of cowardice, it is not obvious it was a bad strategy in terms of effectiveness ... at least given the reality of our position. I think this started changing in the 2000s, and specifically around 2004 (if I had to choose a watershed mark). Our ambitions changed. We wanted to win on grounds that were not dustbowls where Azhar's team systematically decimated the opposition. And turned down Akaash Chopra who had a decent outing. Many on these boards (I can remember Kban) suggest that was a bad move and Chopra ought to have been given a better treatment. That is justified to some extent, but I think the move was in the right direction ... our new ambitions did not allow wasting the initial overs and demanded that we take the initiative.

There was a change in this thinking with Dravid opening the innings when he was the captain, fortunately it was on flat tracks and more importantly succeeded at first, and once that changed it was moved off.
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Cernunnos

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2011, 10:38:21 PM »
Quote
Quote
Let's take the SG debut example. Here you have a guy who has already played 39 tests and come off scoring a hundred in his last innings. You have two debutants thrown at the wolves. The ball is swinging and seaming, and this seasoned batsman has the finest technique. Instead of taking the responsibility, in comes the sacrificial lamb who has always batted #4-5 in domestics.

First, I would rather ask why that "sacrifical lamb" who "always batted" #4-5 in domestics did not consider batting higher in domestics if he was good enough to make it to the Indian team? Were the openers of the domestic team he played for particularly productive and consistent that #3 came in when the score was settled? Why shouldn't the batsman with the better technique play higher to take the challenge head on? What a selfish lamb.

Second, you should also castigate Azharuddin, the captain for batting at #5 when the ball was seaming and swinging and not only drafting the sacrificial lamb ahead of him but also the selfish hero.

SG batted at #3 when the need arose in domestics (for example when representing East zone). 

Azhar was a known bunny on seaming tracks, barring a few innings here and there. If we are to put SRT on the Azhar plane, then the debate wouldn't even happen. The bar is raised because of the immortality being bestowed on SRT. If Bradman, Ponting, IVAR, Lara and many others could shuffle #3-#4 for the sake of the team balance, SRT should also be expected to do so. It is not that RD opening was the only time the #3 became vacant. This happened many times starting from Kambli's debut and down to Nottingham.

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Cernunnos

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2011, 10:57:45 PM »
I think the point being made is why doesn't SRT bat at #3 when when RD opens.

Just exploring what happened when Dravid opened. He has opened in 13 tests.

One of those tests - in Hamilton - was when Dravid opened in the second innings and India scored 39 runs to win the test match. He did not open in the first innings. Tendulkar did not bat in that second innings as India won by 10 wickets. This should not really construe a "Dravid opening" test match.

Another of those tests was the famous knock of 128 at the flat road in Lahore (when Sehwag made 254). India were left at 410 for 1 in their first innings as we recall. Tendulkar didn't even bat.

So that leaves 11 other tests.

2 of these are in this ongoing England series where Tendulkar has fizzled out. In the first test at Lord's Dravid opened in the second innings because of Gambhir's injury.

That leaves 9 other tests to look at further when Dravid opened. In 3 of these Ganguly played at number 3 (and basically fizzled out with scores of 6, 0, 23, 30, 1 and 13). In 6 others Laxman played at number 3 and did pretty well (32, 29, 69, 11, 90, 26, 42, 109, 20, 21). Sehwag batted at 3 in one innings and scored 5.

Tendulkar scored 4 centuries in these 9 tests when batting at number 4 and allowing someone else to play at number 3. 3 of he 4 centuries were above 150.

Splendid. So others were forced to fill the vacuum at #3 and manage to somehow cling on to that position for a limited time, and that justifies SRT to sit tight in the comfort of his shelter. Let's take the SG debut example. Here you have a guy who has already played 39 tests and come off scoring a hundred in his last innings. You have two debutants thrown at the wolves. The ball is swinging and seaming, and this seasoned batsman has the finest technique. Instead of taking the responsibility, in comes the sacrificial lamb who has always batted #4-5 in domestics.

One can understand if historically that #4 position is problematic for us. The stats show it is not, rather it's the most fruitful batting position. Here are some stats I culled out for other teams in the same period at #4

Kallis - 49.02 in 136 innings
others - 40.64 in 137 innings

Mahela - 57.06 in 133 innings
others - 42.73 in 144 innings

KevinP - 62.41 in 90 innings
others - 36.87 in 406 innings

Lara - 51.19 in 144 innings
others - 35.22 in 222 innings

So one would understand if the above batsmen stuck to their #4 slot. Yet all these guys (barring KP) have moved up and down the order at some period to adjust to the team requirement. Sure in SRT's case he's been lucky that an RD came along and basically owned the #3 (note RD was forced into that position). But there is little justification why he has never had to come at #3.
If you want to talk about sacrificial lambs, may I point out that time and again our middle order batsmen have refused opening, and have put in sacrificial lambs such as Manoj Prabhakar, Nayan Mongia, Sanjay Bangar, Deep Dasgupta, Yuvraj Singh, W. V. Raman (he did not start out as a batsman), Virender Sehwag, ... OK I am tired. The list of captains include Vengsarkar, Srikkant, Azhar, Sachin, Ganguly, Dravid. At all times the sacrificial lambs "protected" the middle  order batsmen with a job of playing off the new ball. And it was not just Sachin, but all the middle order batsmen (and we have always claimed to have good ones).

Manoj Prabhakar, Nayan Mongia, Sanjay Bangar, Deep Dasgupta: Batting not their primary focus. (Bangar was an all-rounder)

Yuvraj Singh: played 52 out of his 54 innings at #5-7!

Sehwag: Debuted at #6. The key to his promotion as opener was that he was assured that his failure would not be held against him (said so by himself).

You will have to go back to Surinder Amarnath and then Abbas Ali Baig in 1959 to find another Indian middle-order batsman who was made to debut at #3 in an away test.

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RicePlateReddy

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2011, 01:20:32 AM »
SG batted at #3 when the need arose in domestics (for example when representing East zone). 

I wish it were possible to quantify this a little better and look at who was at 1, 2, and 3 when he didn't bat at number 3, so we know how many bullets he took.

Quote
.... The bar is raised because of the immortality being bestowed on SRT. If Bradman, Ponting, IVAR, Lara and many others could shuffle #3-#4 for the sake of the team balance, SRT should also be expected to do so. It is not that RD opening was the only time the #3 became vacant. This happened many times starting from Kambli's debut and down to Nottingham.

I don't think it is a big deal at all.

I don't think any of his contemporaries feel that he did not have the wherewithal to play at 3 and perform every bit as well as he did at 4. Why wouldn't folks from other countries point it out as part of a 'mental disintegration' plan?

As the best Indian batsman through most of the tests he has played, he liked/likes to bat at 4 and not at 3. He has clearly earned the stripes to do so. If you or others want to say Dravid or Laxman was more selfless for the team, most people would agree and heck Tendulkar could well be the loudest voice of support. The fact that he has not budged simply does not diminish his greatness.
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WicketView

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2011, 03:30:46 AM »
I think the point being made is why doesn't SRT bat at #3 when when RD opens.

Just exploring what happened when Dravid opened. He has opened in 13 tests.

One of those tests - in Hamilton - was when Dravid opened in the second innings and India scored 39 runs to win the test match. He did not open in the first innings. Tendulkar did not bat in that second innings as India won by 10 wickets. This should not really construe a "Dravid opening" test match.

Another of those tests was the famous knock of 128 at the flat road in Lahore (when Sehwag made 254). India were left at 410 for 1 in their first innings as we recall. Tendulkar didn't even bat.

So that leaves 11 other tests.

2 of these are in this ongoing England series where Tendulkar has fizzled out. In the first test at Lord's Dravid opened in the second innings because of Gambhir's injury.

That leaves 9 other tests to look at further when Dravid opened. In 3 of these Ganguly played at number 3 (and basically fizzled out with scores of 6, 0, 23, 30, 1 and 13). In 6 others Laxman played at number 3 and did pretty well (32, 29, 69, 11, 90, 26, 42, 109, 20, 21). Sehwag batted at 3 in one innings and scored 5.

Tendulkar scored 4 centuries in these 9 tests when batting at number 4 and allowing someone else to play at number 3. 3 of he 4 centuries were above 150.

Splendid. So others were forced to fill the vacuum at #3 and manage to somehow cling on to that position for a limited time, and that justifies SRT to sit tight in the comfort of his shelter. Let's take the SG debut example. Here you have a guy who has already played 39 tests and come off scoring a hundred in his last innings. You have two debutants thrown at the wolves. The ball is swinging and seaming, and this seasoned batsman has the finest technique. Instead of taking the responsibility, in comes the sacrificial lamb who has always batted #4-5 in domestics.

One can understand if historically that #4 position is problematic for us. The stats show it is not, rather it's the most fruitful batting position. Here are some stats I culled out for other teams in the same period at #4

Kallis - 49.02 in 136 innings
others - 40.64 in 137 innings

Mahela - 57.06 in 133 innings
others - 42.73 in 144 innings

KevinP - 62.41 in 90 innings
others - 36.87 in 406 innings

Lara - 51.19 in 144 innings
others - 35.22 in 222 innings

So one would understand if the above batsmen stuck to their #4 slot. Yet all these guys (barring KP) have moved up and down the order at some period to adjust to the team requirement. Sure in SRT's case he's been lucky that an RD came along and basically owned the #3 (note RD was forced into that position). But there is little justification why he has never had to come at #3.
If you want to talk about sacrificial lambs, may I point out that time and again our middle order batsmen have refused opening, and have put in sacrificial lambs such as Manoj Prabhakar, Nayan Mongia, Sanjay Bangar, Deep Dasgupta, Yuvraj Singh, W. V. Raman (he did not start out as a batsman), Virender Sehwag, ... OK I am tired. The list of captains include Vengsarkar, Srikkant, Azhar, Sachin, Ganguly, Dravid. At all times the sacrificial lambs "protected" the middle  order batsmen with a job of playing off the new ball. And it was not just Sachin, but all the middle order batsmen (and we have always claimed to have good ones).

Manoj Prabhakar, Nayan Mongia, Sanjay Bangar, Deep Dasgupta: Batting not their primary focus. (Bangar was an all-rounder)
That is the point. Clearly, "good" middle order batsmen would be expected to have better technique to counter hostile opening spells. But rather than putting these batsmen in the line of fire, our strategy has been to sacrifice a not so great player to take the shine off the ball.  This has been the case to protect all our batsmen at some time or the other. So, I doubt that SRT not coming out to bat was a case where everyone was entreating him to bat and he refused.

Indeed, I recall much criticism of SRT (as captain) when he did open the innings in a test (and failed). Had he gone on to score a century, maybe things would have been different.
Quote
Yuvraj Singh: played 52 out of his 54 innings at #5-7!

Sehwag: Debuted at #6. The key to his promotion as opener was that he was assured that his failure would not be held against him (said so by himself).

You will have to go back to Surinder Amarnath and then Abbas Ali Baig in 1959 to find another Indian middle-order batsman who was made to debut at #3 in an away test.
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feverpitch

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2011, 07:07:57 AM »
time to revive this discussion... and maybe revise some opinions...
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achutank

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2011, 10:02:15 AM »
this is the bengali's pet peeve

about SRT being spineless - it is baseless

SRT at 4 every time, it is the bedrock of our line-up why beep with it
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kban1

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2011, 10:56:03 AM »
Whats with the "bengali" Bull * all the time on this board ?

First suddz and now you and there are obviously the other usual suspects on this board -- people who have either lived in the state for a while and therefore know all about the pysche of hundreds of millions of Bengalis or those that have not but still know enough to stereotype.

Any comment, irrespective of who is the subject matter, its down to the same communal bull* and bigoted accusations
If its Ganguly, it has to be the Bengali mindset
If its Dravid, ditto
If its VVS, same
If its SRT, same again --blame the people from rasagullah land
Add Dhoni, Dalmiya, Pawar, heck even Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck -- and its the same BS argument.

How come you guys never use the same logic when the opinion maker is of Marwari, Marathi, Tamilian, Malayali, Punjabi. etc etc origins ---

In each of their cases. they are individuals who are expressing their opinion without them (or their opinions) representing the rest of their state, country, community, etc.

Except when it comes to Bengalis -- somehow every opinionmaker is representative of his entire community, responsible as the flagbearer of the rest of the millions who constitute his community instead of having an individual opinion (which may or may not agree with others'). The very essence of stereotyping.

To you (which to me is personally shocking), and the rest of those who frequent this board under the garb of erudition while practicing bigotry,

Well played sirs, what a classy and dignified way to go.  :icon_thumleft:
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 11:19:27 AM by kban1 »
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feverpitch

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2011, 11:20:15 AM »
Back to topic: Useless century red alert!
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k-slice

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2011, 11:25:30 AM »
Whats with the "bengali" Bull * all the time on this board ?

First suddz and now you and there are obviously the other usual suspects on this board -- people who have either lived in the state for a while and therefore know all about the pysche of hundreds of millions of Bengalis or those that have not but still know enough to stereotype.

Any comment, irrespective of who is the subject matter, its down to the same communal bull* and bigoted accusations
If its Ganguly, it has to be the Bengali mindset
If its Dravid, ditto
If its VVS, same
If its SRT, same again --blame the people from rasagullah land
Add Dhoni, Dalmiya, Pawar, heck even Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck -- and its the same BS argument.

How come you guys never use the same logic when the opinion maker is of Marwari, Marathi, Tamilian, Malayali, Punjabi. etc etc origins ---

In each of their cases. they are individuals who are expressing their opinion without them (or their opinions) representing the rest of their state, country, community, etc.

Except when it comes to Bengalis -- somehow every opinionmaker is representative of his entire community, responsible as the flagbearer of the rest of the millions who constitute his community instead of having an individual opinion (which may or may not agree with others'). The very essence of sterotyping.

To you (which to me is personally shocking), and the rest of those who frequent this board under the garb of erudition while practicing bigotry,

Well played sirs, what a classy and dignified way to go.  :icon_thumleft:
although i agree with a lot of what you have written here, there are points that i disagree with. Maybe i have not comprehended what you are saying completely but isnt it hard not to have regional bias? I am maharashtrian and growing up always thought of sachin as "amcha Sachin" or "apla sachin". Even this was given up when SRT played for Bombay against Maharashtra when it became "tyancha Sachin" or their sachin. somewhere along the line i became a huge fan of SG and RD and recently (5 odd years) of VVS.
Some folks, whether here or in the real world, will always say things like "bengali mindset" "ghati mindset" etc. to compartmentalize my thoughts in a possible attempt to either understand or undermine them. having said that, you cannot deny that a SG has bling following in bengal or SRT's following is stronger in Maharashtra than elsewhere. i am nit suggesting that all indians dont love them but for me personally it is hard to be critical of SRT. unfortunate as this maybe this parochial mindset is in me and it is going to be hard for me to deny it. i try and reason it away at times. some times i am successful, others not so much. i believe that underneath all our political correctness all of us have some sort of bias towards certain cricketers. when somebody presents an argument against them, even if it may seem valid, logical and reasonable our bias disallows us from seeing it that way. we then need to resort to name calling to show our dicks are longer than theirs. you are as guilty of this as I am as is the next person. all this holds true only if i have understood what you had said to begin with. if not it is just more words on this server [god]
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k-slice

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2011, 11:26:18 AM »
Back to topic: Useless century red alert!
so a century that might avert a whitewash is useless? interesting. i guess he should have got out for a duck then.
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feverpitch

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2011, 11:47:14 AM »
Back to topic: Useless century red alert!
so a century that might avert a whitewash is useless? interesting. i guess he should have got out for a duck then.

Just a century won't avery the whitewash. you need dourness od dravid to stick around for 2 more sessions. unfortunately, i don't expect that to happen.

here's what i expect:

sachin scores his customary useless century and gets out.

india loses

ravi shastri and other former players turned BCCI chamchas come on TV news late in the nite to discuss HIS greatness, and once again demand Bharat Ratna.

the 4-0 loss is buried under feelgood century.
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k-slice

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Re: The truth about Sachin Tendulkar
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2011, 11:49:07 AM »
Back to topic: Useless century red alert!
so a century that might avert a whitewash is useless? interesting. i guess he should have got out for a duck then.

Just a century won't avery the whitewash. you need dourness od dravid to stick around for 2 more sessions. unfortunately, i don't expect that to happen.

here's what i expect:

sachin scores his customary useless century and gets out.

india loses

ravi shastri and other former players turned BCCI chamchas come on TV news late in the nite to discuss HIS greatness, and once again demand Bharat Ratna.

the 4-0 loss is buried under feelgood century.
so if he stays not out and averts a loss it would be of some worth?
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