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[poondu]

From The Hindu   

Chawla needs to flight more: Maninder

S. Dinakar





Chennai: Maninder Singh is shocked that young leg-spinner Piyush Chawla is part of the India `A' team competing in the ongoing EurAsia tournament in Abu Dhabi.

"For a short man, he does not turn his leg-spinners enough. He is not ripping it hard. Selecting him in a one-day competition just does not make sense," the former India left-arm spinner told The Hindu on Wednesday.

Maninder, who is here as one of the coaches for an intensive under-17 camp conducted by Parle, explains, "Piyush is tending to depend more on his googly than his leg-spinners. He needs to work on the stock ball for a leggie, needs to flight more. In the one-dayers, he is bound to bowl flat and this will only hurt him in the longer run. The selectors have to show vision."

No mincing words


Never the kind to mince his words, Maninder is against the idea of cricketers from the under-19 age-group being elevated to the international ranks. "You have enough examples of players who have suffered." He then comes up with the names. "Maninder Singh, L. Sivaramakrishnan... ." There is pain and anguish on his face.

"You know Siva was as big as Sachin Tendulkar in terms of sheer talent. Siva was a brilliant fielder anywhere, was a very capable batsman and was a gifted bowler, but..," his voice trails off.

ODI's affect


The 40-year-old Sardar, who picked up 88 wickets in 35 Tests for India, believes an excess of ODI cricket has affected Harbhajan Singh's performances in Tests. "His length has gradually become shorter. He is struggling on pitches that do not offer him assistance. For someone with so much experience, he should have had more variety. He should be using the crease and varying his trajectory better. And he is not comfortable bowling round the wicket."

Maninder is delighted with off-spinner Ramesh Powar. "He has spent a lot of time in domestic cricket. Most importantly, he is not afraid to be driven. He has the flight, the loop, and an effective arm ball. And he is one off-spinner who is not going to get reported for his action."

Saddened


Predictably, he is saddened that left-arm spin is on the decline in the country. "Firstly, teams are preparing spinner friendly pitches to suit their needs. The spinners need to learn their craft on a hard pitch. The left-arm spinner has to have the arm ball in his repertoire."

Maninder believes that the lack of role models has been a stumbling block for left-arm spinners in the country. "When I started playing, I could look up to Bishen Singh Bedi. Now the youngsters are inspired by Shane Warne and Anil Kumble."

He, however, feels Murali Kartik, recovering from an injury, has all the attributes of a good left-arm spinner. "But he has played only one Test after bagging the Man of the Match award against Australia in Mumbai in 2004."

Maninder may be outspoken, but he also reveals a rare integrity to the game.

[Vick]

Never the kind to mince his words, Maninder is against the idea of cricketers from the under-19 age-group being elevated to the international ranks. "You have enough examples of players who have suffered." He then comes up with the names. "Maninder Singh, L. Sivaramakrishnan... ." There is pain and anguish on his face.

>>Fully agree with the above sentence. Add the name of parthiv patel to this list too. We shold stop thursting 18-19 year olds after just one season to the International cricket. Let them harden a bit in first class.

[prfsr]

Fully agree with the above sentence. Add the name of parthiv patel to this list too. We shold stop thursting 18-19 year olds after just one season to the International cricket. Let them harden a bit in first class.

The selectors agree with you -- that is why they have started inducting players who are yet to finish a season of domestic FC cricket 

-P

[flute202020]

Never the kind to mince his words, Maninder is against the idea of cricketers from the under-19 age-group being elevated to the international ranks. "You have enough examples of players who have suffered." He then comes up with the names. "Maninder Singh, L. Sivaramakrishnan... ." There is pain and anguish on his face.

>>Fully agree with the above sentence. Add the name of parthiv patel to this list too. We shold stop thursting 18-19 year olds after just one season to the International cricket. Let them harden a bit in first class.

vick, agreed to an extent, but the other problem is, players with real talent, they really need good competition and the quality of our domestics is questionable in hardening a potential talent. I guess your suggestion makes imminent sense if the domentic circuit cricket quality improves.

[poondu]

Flute,

I don't understand your point here.Are u saying that because there is lack of competition in Domestic cricket that really talented young players  should play international cricket ?

[flute202020]

Flute,

I don't understand your point here.Are u saying that because there is lack of competition in Domestic cricket that really talented young players  should play international cricket ?

To some extent yes, since our domestic circuit is not very good and so many players who are prolific in domestic cricket only to fail in Intl cricket, the best way to develop talent is to draft them early into the Indian dressing room, even if they are not permanent fixtures. Now, this is not to suggest that we carry around a  lot of them in Indian contingent, but in case of potential exceptional talents like Chawla etc. I don't see any harm in drafting them ealy to give them a taste of intl cricket. Of course this should be done carefully and only in case of rare talent. It was obvious to all who watched young SRT that he's got great talent. Also, I am not sure if Siva lost out because he was drafted into the team early. His inability to cope with new fame and riches cost him, not the original decision to play him, for he did succeed as a young player, right? Where we lost Siva was probably in his own inability to cope with early success and also our non-existent nurturing processes. There is simply no help or guidance to guys like Kambli or Siva or Ambati Rayudu etc. 
 

[poondu]

Flute,

Exceptionally talents even if they play in domestic cricket (since they are supposedly superior)  will feel more confident if they score runs and take wickets and then come into International cricket. Right?
Domestic cricket is also a good place to iron out any issues and hone new skills. I agree with Vick's suggestion that 1 year in domestic cricket is a good idea even for exceptional talents.

Tendulkar is a superhuman IMO, he would have succeeded anytime anywhere. I don't think Chawla is in the same talent zone as Tendulkar was

[prfsr]

Flute,
Show me one instance other than SRT where your strategy succeeded. For each of your examples, I will give you 3-4 names where the strategy backfired. Especially in the case of bowlers.

You say that our domestic standard is low. The standard in U-19/U-17 is *far* lower. And we should evaluate talent basically based on them? PC/PP had not played *1* full season when they were inducted.

-P

[prfsr]

I would also argue that for spinners, the standards in our domestic scene is better than most test teams -- how many spinners can you name that did well in domestics and bombed when playing for India (yes I know there are a few offspinners -- Gopal Sharma and Arshad Ayub come to mind)? It is entirely different for batsmen.

-P

[ruchir]

I would also argue that for spinners, the standards in our domestic scene is better than most test teams -- how many spinners can you name that did well in domestics and bombed when playing for India (yes I know there are a few offspinners -- Gopal Sharma and Arshad Ayub come to mind)? It is entirely different for batsmen.

-P

prfsr: Hirwani, Murali Karthik (spare politics), Venkatapathy Raju, Sarandeep Singh, Rajesh Chauhan can be added to the list.

Update: Add Sairaj Bahutule, Rahul Sanghvi

[Vick]

Never the kind to mince his words, Maninder is against the idea of cricketers from the under-19 age-group being elevated to the international ranks. "You have enough examples of players who have suffered." He then comes up with the names. "Maninder Singh, L. Sivaramakrishnan... ." There is pain and anguish on his face.

>>Fully agree with the above sentence. Add the name of parthiv patel to this list too. We shold stop thursting 18-19 year olds after just one season to the International cricket. Let them harden a bit in first class.

vick, agreed to an extent, but the other problem is, players with real talent, they really need good competition and the quality of our domestics is questionable in hardening a potential talent. I guess your suggestion makes imminent sense if the domentic circuit cricket quality improves.

I dont agree. Our current domestic set up is quite competitive. We no longer have games between very strong sides and weaker one's. Also if you check the Ranji scores these days teams are fighting for semi final places till last round. And if someone has telent he will be dominating in the domestic cricket in big way. Which none of our young guns really have. yes they have scored well but not dominated. Which may only mean that they are either not so good or are playing against decent oppositions.

[Cover Point]

I do agree. I dont think pushing under 19 players into tests is a good idea ... I think allowing players to harden in domestics isnt a bad idea. Along with that if they think domestic competition isnt good enough then either do something about that (invite foreign teams or something) OR have more of these A tours and let the players regularly play there.

Throwing players in tests can work once in a decade or 2 (actually by that rote we should be due)

[kingcool1432]

I would also argue that for spinners, the standards in our domestic scene is better than most test teams -- how many spinners can you name that did well in domestics and bombed when playing for India (yes I know there are a few offspinners -- Gopal Sharma and Arshad Ayub come to mind)? It is entirely different for batsmen.

-P

prfsr: Hirwani, Murali Karthik (spare politics), Venkatapathy Raju, Sarandeep Singh, Rajesh Chauhan can be added to the list.

Update: Add Sairaj Bahutule, Rahul Sanghvi

V Raju

Tests   28   7602   2857   93   6/12   11/125   30.72

S Singh

Tests   3   678   340   10   4/136   6/206   34.00

N Hirwani

Tests   17   4298   1987   66   8/61   16/136   30.10   

M Karthick

Tests   8   1932   820   24   4/44   7/76   34.16   

Rahul Sangvi
Tests   1   74   78   2   2/67   2/78   39.00  (he bowled 12 overs in his career ! )



Didn't set the world on fire, yes . Bombed ? don't think so

[prfsr]

I would also argue that for spinners, the standards in our domestic scene is better than most test teams -- how many spinners can you name that did well in domestics and bombed when playing for India (yes I know there are a few offspinners -- Gopal Sharma and Arshad Ayub come to mind)? It is entirely different for batsmen.

-P

prfsr: Hirwani, Murali Karthik (spare politics), Venkatapathy Raju, Sarandeep Singh, Rajesh Chauhan can be added to the list.

Update: Add Sairaj Bahutule, Rahul Sanghvi

V Raju

Tests   28   7602   2857   93   6/12   11/125   30.72

S Singh

Tests   3   678   340   10   4/136   6/206   34.00

N Hirwani

Tests   17   4298   1987   66   8/61   16/136   30.10   

M Karthick

Tests   8   1932   820   24   4/44   7/76   34.16   

Rahul Sangvi
Tests   1   74   78   2   2/67   2/78   39.00  (he bowled 12 overs in his career ! )

Didn't set the world on fire, yes . Bombed ? don't think so

Absolutely. Hirwani was actually a success. Was brought in very late. Raju was a front line bowler for more than a year IIRC.

Sarandeep was brought in very early and has a very dodgy action -- maybe I should have said excluding dodgy actions. I suspect that he chucks way more in domestics a la Parida.
Same (dodgy action) with Chauhan.

I will give you Karthik and Sanghvi and perhaps Bahutule. Did the last two play tests? In the case of the first two, they were burned by having been brought in very early and getting their confidence affected. You can recover to a point and do very well in domestics, especially on spinning tracks, but do not have enough confidence to stick it out on the big stage.

-P
 

[ruchir]

prfsr / kingcool:

Each one of the players mentioned by me has played Tests.

Hirwani made his debut at 19 years of age, so it is a mistake to say he was brought in too late; unless you think 19 years is too late for entry. At 19 years age debut, Hirwani played only 17 tests; that too spread over 8 years from 1988 to 1996. If you think a 17 test career spread over 8 years is a SUCCESS in test cricket then what can I say!!!

Chauhan = 21 tests, 47 wkts, 39.5 avg. spread over 5 years (1993 - 98). Failed because of suspect action.

Raju played only 28 Tests. That too, spread over 11 years of career, from 1990 to 2001. That's a very staggered and inconsistent career, showing clearly that he was never good enough to be selected for an extended period.

Since Kumble entered the team, we have produced only 2 spinners who have had some sort of an extended career. Kumble himself and Bhajji. Every other spinner has been a failure in Indian team. If you think otherwise, mention one spinner who played for Indian team regularly for an extended period of time.

Karthik, Singh and Sanghvi are not worth discussing since they never had any sort of career.

That's why I mentioned all these spinners, who did well in domestic but not on international cricket. And by doing well, I mean giving consistently good performances to be selected continuosly. My opinion is that they failed. If there is any other word to describe them, I am willing to hear.

I will put the debut ages of players mentioned by me in my earlier post:

Hirwani = 19 years
Murali Karthik = 23 years
Venkatapathy Raju = 20 years
Sarandeep Singh = 21 years
Rajesh Chauhan = 26 years
Sairaj Bahutule = 28 years
Rahul Sanghvi = 26 years

Unlike Piyush Chawla, all these players made a debut at the age of around 19-20 years, some around 26-27 years of age. So, I feel that the point that playing domestic hardens a player or points out his deficiencies is not neccessarily true. I feel that it is more dependent on the skill and mentality of a player whether he turns out to be a successful international player or not. If a player, young or old has it in him, he will be successful. If not, he will wither away.

Also, to say that at a young age players don't know how to handle name and fame and a misnomer, im my opinion. First of all, it is not selector's responsibility to judge whether a player can handle name and fame at his age or not, and take that into consideration in his selection. I am saying this here because this point has been pointed out somewhere in this thread. It is upto the player to live his life. If he is a FOOL, he will destroy himself like Kambli. If he is Intelligent, he will live like Sachin. Selectors can not be the judge of this aspect.

My conclusion is that there is no fixed formula that tells what is the right age to select any player. It depends on case-to-case. Of course, the best criteria for selection should be Skill and Playing mentality shown in whatever domestic matches a player has played. Selectors should have high standards while selecting. If they are impressed by what they see, the player matches upto their standards, then age should not be a criteria. That's my opinion.