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[ramshorns]

All I am going to do is to quote Brett Lee on Laxman (inspite of it being used on the DG multiple times)
"If you get Dravid, great. If you get Sachin, brilliant. If you get Laxman, it's a miracle."
Brett Lee repeats the words of wisdom of his former captain, Steve Waugh

Very relevant to this discussion, especially considering that these quotes were 2-3 years back 

When guys are using innings from 2-3 years back to analyse VVS why not use the quotes from 2-3 years back to show the other side of it.  If one is relevant then this should be relevant as well.  No?

[justforkix]

When guys are using innings from 2-3 years back to analyse VVS why not use the quotes from 2-3 years back.  If one is relevent then this very much relevent as well.  No?

Well VVS played his last full season of ODIs only in 2003-04, i.e., 2-3 years back..... he didn't play any of the domestic ODIs the last 2 seasons (I think). What should folks use, his test innings, his challengers trophy innings alone ?!?

[justforkix]

VVS has worked hard to improve his fielding, running between wkts  - that is a lot of commitment. We have to try him to see if his commitment will translate into results or not. [some proof seen in Champ.Trophy i guess in domestic circuit]

VVS just played 2 domestic games this season. I didn't watch the Challengers and the 2 domestic games. I'll take your word that he did show improvement in his running between the wkts and ground fielding in these 4 f/c games. But in the subsequent tests he played, I didn't see any improvement in VVS in running between the wickets and ground fielding. Actually I think SG showed much better commitment in his ground fielding in the tests he played this season than VVS.

[ramshorns]

When guys are using innings from 2-3 years back to analyse VVS why not use the quotes from 2-3 years back.  If one is relevent then this very much relevent as well.  No?

Well VVS played his last full season of ODIs only in 2003-04, i.e., 2-3 years back..... he didn't play any of the domestic ODIs the last 2 seasons (I think). What should folks use, his test innings, his champions trophy innings alone ?!?

JFK, What are you talking about????Did you watch the challengers.  So for you that is not domestics. He was the best bat on display.  Actually looks like that is the only domestic tournament that counted,  Because with one good inning RU got in.  All the main bowlers played and in essense it was like mini national tournament.  That is enough to judge this proven match winner on par or better than SRT or RD in great innings played in the last 4-5 years.

[ramshorns]

VVS has worked hard to improve his fielding, running between wkts  - that is a lot of commitment. We have to try him to see if his commitment will translate into results or not. [some proof seen in Champ.Trophy i guess in domestic circuit]

VVS just played 2 domestic games this season. I didn't watch the Champions Trophy and the 2 domestic games. I'll take your word that he did show improvement in his running between the wkts and ground fielding in these 4 f/c games. But in the subsequent tests he played, I didn't see any improvement in VVS in running between the wickets and ground fielding. Actually I think SG showed much better commitment in his ground fielding in the tests he played this season than VVS.

Atleast VVS is in the picture for tests, so atleast has a ray of hope in ODI's. Regarding SG right or wrong he is out of it IMO. You know that as well.  We had a discussion on this.  For us to again go SG vs VVS is a futile exercise.  We can take it up if SG is selected for WI tests.  Also for the record in a test in ZIM, VVS and SG batted together and the diffrence was there for everyone to see.  Again after that SG did not get opportunties, so not much to talk after that.  Again not SG's fault.  But he was not considered.   Where as VVS apart from the Challenger success had scores of 104, 60, 90 as well in tests.  So VVS should very much be in the picture given that.

[fineleg]

even SS got in due to challengers - thats how he got ahead of MP, VRV etc against SL

Challengers was like "board exam" - main event used to pick players last time.

[justforkix]

JFK, What are you talking about????Did you watch the challengers.  So for you that is not domestics. He was the best bat on display.  Actually looks like that is the only domestic tournament that counted,  Because with one good inning RU got in.  All the main bowlers played and in essense it was like mini national tournament.  That is enough to judge this proven match winner on par or better than SRT or RD in great innings played in the last 4-5 years.

Again, as I said, I reiterate - nothing wrong in citing VVS's innings from the last full season of ODIs he played.

you present your case with 2 ODIs that VVS played in the challengers (48 and 110) OK. But will you agree, if someone discards VVS based on the subsequent 2 ODIs he played vs SL and WI in SL (7 and 22) ?!?

[justforkix]

Atleast VVS is in the picture for tests, so atleast has a ray of hope in ODI's. Regarding SG right or wrong he is out of it IMO. You know that as well.  We had a discussion on this.  For us to again go SG vs VVS is a futile exercise.  We can take it up if SG is selected for WI tests.  Also for the record in a test in ZIM, VVS and SG batted together and the diffrence was there for everyone to see.  Again after that SG did not get opportunties, so not much to talk after that.  Again not SG's fault.  But he was not considered.   Where as VVS apart from the Challenger success had scores of 104, 60, 90 as well in tests.  So VVS should very much be in the picture given that.

Don't just take the last sentence of my post !!!!!

My post is a reply to fineleg, who said :

"VVS has worked hard to improve his fielding, running between wkts  - that is a lot of commitment. We have to try him to see if his commitment will translate into results or not. [some proof seen in Champ.Trophy i guess in domestic circuit]"

But in the subsequent tests he played, I didn't see any improvement in VVS in running between the wickets and ground fielding. I don't want to give any examples. This is abvious to anyone who watched VVS this season. His weaknesses are still his ground fielding and poor running. If indeed he has been working on this, he has not shown it on the cricket field.

[Cover Point]

Ok if we have said everything else I will say something new that I havent said before. If we were that desperate I would pick SG before VVS.

SG atleast (when in form) has the ability to accelerate when needed. Laxman doesnt! And that comment about Laxman accelerating by hitting fours is a myth. I havent seen that yet.

What people dont realize is that ODI's have actually changed even in the last 2-3 years ... the kinds of innings that used to be ok when India went to Aus is no longer adequate. Today the scores are higher ..all over  the world!

And fineleg, if Kaif and venu have problems ..it doesnt mean we replace them with another problem. I would replace them with a "solution". I mean keep looking for that #6 if none of the above options are ok. I too am no longer convinced with Kaif. Same thing about lack of ability to accelerate but he is a better fielder and runner. Venu i havent seen enough of ...but what i have seen so far isnt convincing. There might be another player ... JP Yadav or someone else !

[ramshorns]

Atleast VVS is in the picture for tests, so atleast has a ray of hope in ODI's. Regarding SG right or wrong he is out of it IMO. You know that as well.  We had a discussion on this.  For us to again go SG vs VVS is a futile exercise.  We can take it up if SG is selected for WI tests.  Also for the record in a test in ZIM, VVS and SG batted together and the diffrence was there for everyone to see.  Again after that SG did not get opportunties, so not much to talk after that.  Again not SG's fault.  But he was not considered.   Where as VVS apart from the Challenger success had scores of 104, 60, 90 as well in tests.  So VVS should very much be in the picture given that.

Don't just take the last sentence of my post !!!!!

My post is a reply to fineleg, who said :

"VVS has worked hard to improve his fielding, running between wkts  - that is a lot of commitment. We have to try him to see if his commitment will translate into results or not. [some proof seen in Champ.Trophy i guess in domestic circuit]"

But in the subsequent tests he played, I didn't see any improvement in VVS in running between the wickets and ground fielding. I don't want to give any examples. This is abvious to anyone who watched VVS this season. His weaknesses are still his ground fielding and poor running. If indeed he has been working on this, he has not shown it on the cricket field.

Then how did he score 104, 90 and 69, if he was that bad a runner.  How did he score a 100 and couple of fifties in Challengers???  Did he cause any runouts????No.  That is one other thing people forget.  He has lesser mixups than say a RD.  That should count for something.  This running between things is a bit overrated, when some guys are overscrutinised.    He is a good fielder.  Safe pair if hands.   In ODI'd can man the 3rd man region.   What about the dropped catches by RD in a bunch.  Knit picking every little thing can be done for any player.  If you want I can do that to SG/RD/SRT, but as I said earlier I am not going that route.  If you do not want VVS in the team, I can live with that.  You are entiltled to your opinion.   

[ramshorns]

Ok if we have said everything else I will say something new that I havent said before. If we were that desperate I would pick SG before VVS.

SG atleast (when in form) has the ability to accelerate when needed. Laxman doesnt! And that comment about Laxman accelerating by hitting fours is a myth. I havent seen that yet.

What people dont realize is that ODI's have actually changed even in the last 2-3 years ... the kinds of innings that used to be ok when India went to Aus is no longer adequate. Today the scores are higher ..all over  the world!

And fineleg, if Kaif and venu have problems ..it doesnt mean we replace them with another problem. I would replace them with a "solution". I mean keep looking for that #6 if none of the above options are ok. I too am no longer convinced with Kaif. Same thing about lack of ability to accelerate but he is a better fielder and runner. Venu i havent seen enough of ...but what i have seen so far isnt convincing. There might be another player ... JP Yadav or someone else !

Great you would consider JP Yadav over VVS to replace a middle order bat say a Venu or a Kaif.  I just want to see all these guys bat on SA or AUS pitches, for once.  As JFK pointed out yesterday just because you won some series at home does not give a licence to pick at will.  Trust me you always need players like VVS to win abroad Tests or ODI's.  You need class as Pointing proved in the WC final.  JP Yadav.  Great.  Next what??

[justforkix]

Then how did he score 104, 90 and 69, if he was that bad a runner.  How did he score a 100 and couple of fifties in Challengers???  Did he cause any runouts????No.  That is one other thing people forget.  He has lesser mixups than say a RD.  That should count for something.  This running between things is a bit overrated, when some guys are overscrutinised.

HUH ?!? Go and read senthil's earlier post. Bad running also refers to converting both yours and your partner's 3s to 2s, 2s to 1s and 1s to 0s. VVS is certainly guilty of that.

He is a good fielder.  Safe pair if hands.   In ODI'd can man the 3rd man region.

I was only refering to ground fielding. read my post again. Anyways, since u said that VVS can man the 3rd man region, u seem to agree that his ground fielding is a liability and we have to "hide" him.

What about the dropped catches by RD in a bunch.  Knit picking every little thing can be done for any player.  If you want I can do that to SG/RD/SRT, but as I said earlier I am not going that route.  If you do not want VVS in the team, I can live with that.  You are entiltled to your opinion.   

This is not nit picking. poor ground fielding and poor running are glaring weaknesses in ODIs. Yes, if you still somehow want VVS in the ODIs, even he shows no improvement in these 2 areas, there's no point arguing.

[justforkix]

Great you would consider JP Yadav over VVS to replace a middle order bat say a Venu or a Kaif.  I just want to see all these guys bat on SA or AUS pitches, for once.  As JFK pointed out yesterday just because you won some series at home does not give a licence to pick at will.  Trust me you always need players like VVS to win abroad Tests or ODI's.  You need class as Pointing proved in the WC final.  JP Yadav.  Great.  Next what??

Finally, I agree with one post of yours today 

[ramshorns]

Then how did he score 104, 90 and 69, if he was that bad a runner.  How did he score a 100 and couple of fifties in Challengers???  Did he cause any runouts????No.  That is one other thing people forget.  He has lesser mixups than say a RD.  That should count for something.  This running between things is a bit overrated, when some guys are overscrutinised.

HUH ?!? Go and read senthil's earlier post. Bad running also refers to converting both yours and your partner's 3s to 2s, 2s to 1s and 1s to 0s. VVS is certainly guilty of that.

He is a good fielder.  Safe pair if hands.   In ODI'd can man the 3rd man region.

I was only refering to ground fielding. read my post again. Anyways, since u said that VVS can man the 3rd man region, u seem to agree that his ground fielding is a liability and we have to "hide" him.

What about the dropped catches by RD in a bunch.  Knit picking every little thing can be done for any player.  If you want I can do that to SG/RD/SRT, but as I said earlier I am not going that route.  If you do not want VVS in the team, I can live with that.  You are entiltled to your opinion.   

This is not nit picking. poor ground fielding and poor running are glaring weaknesses in ODIs. Yes, if you still somehow want VVS in the ODIs, even he shows no improvement in these 2 areas, there's no point arguing.

Sure no one is perfect and I agree VVS's game has flaws just like SRT has some.  I never said otherwise.  Just over analysing these and keeping a guy out where in we can use him against a side like Aus. when needed is not a good move.  Don't you think he can be in the 15 for an important event like the WC.  Also on the fielding front if we have 6-7 very good fielders and assuming VVS is the worst of all if he plays in a game we need him for his batting, I guess there will be areas in the field we can put him and minimise the losses.  That was my point.

[ramshorns]

Great you would consider JP Yadav over VVS to replace a middle order bat say a Venu or a Kaif.  I just want to see all these guys bat on SA or AUS pitches, for once.  As JFK pointed out yesterday just because you won some series at home does not give a licence to pick at will.  Trust me you always need players like VVS to win abroad Tests or ODI's.  You need class as Pointing proved in the WC final.  JP Yadav.  Great.  Next what??

Finally, I agree with one post of yours today 

You made my day .  Now I can sleep .  Seriously, I like doing this. 

[justforkix]

Sure no one is perfect and I agree VVS's game has flaws just like SRT has some.  I never said otherwise.  Just over analysing these and keeping a guy out where in we can use him against a side like Aus. when needed is not a good move.  Don't you think he can be in the 15 for an important event like the WC.  Also on the fielding front if we have 6-7 very good fielders and assuming VVS is the worst of all if he plays in a game we need him for his batting, I guess there will be areas in the field we can put him and minimise the losses.  That was my point.

Yes. SG/VVS will be invaluable in a big event like WC07, no doubt. I'm sure, you agree that the following batters are pencilled in for WC07 - VS, SRT, RD, YS, SR, MK. MK because of the intangibles he brings to the table. We've already argued on this. Letz agree to disagree on this ). So, there is only one spot left. I hope this goes to SG/VVS just to give more experience in the big stage. But I don't think it will. It will go to a "Dinesh Mongia" 

[ramshorns]

Sure no one is perfect and I agree VVS's game has flaws just like SRT has some.  I never said otherwise.  Just over analysing these and keeping a guy out where in we can use him against a side like Aus. when needed is not a good move.  Don't you think he can be in the 15 for an important event like the WC.  Also on the fielding front if we have 6-7 very good fielders and assuming VVS is the worst of all if he plays in a game we need him for his batting, I guess there will be areas in the field we can put him and minimise the losses.  That was my point.

Yes. SG/VVS will be invaluable in a big event like WC07, no doubt. I'm sure, you agree that the following batters are pencilled in for WC07 - VS, SRT, RD, YS, SR, MK. MK because of the intangibles he brings to the table. We've already argued on this. Letz agree to disagree on this ). So, there is only one spot left. I hope this goes to SG/VVS just to give more experience in the big stage. But I don't think it will. It will go to a "Dinesh Mongia" 

Realistically speaking I agree with your lineup of batters set.  Though I agrue on Kaif, I know he will make it only because RD/GC have faith in him.  Unless something drastically changes that looks like it.  That leaves virtually one spot to the rest of the contestants.  Hence my very first reponse on this thread if you go to page 1 when this all started.

[fineleg]

Sure no one is perfect and I agree VVS's game has flaws just like SRT has some.  I never said otherwise.  Just over analysing these and keeping a guy out where in we can use him against a side like Aus. when needed is not a good move.  Don't you think he can be in the 15 for an important event like the WC.  Also on the fielding front if we have 6-7 very good fielders and assuming VVS is the worst of all if he plays in a game we need him for his batting, I guess there will be areas in the field we can put him and minimise the losses.  That was my point.

Yes. SG/VVS will be invaluable in a big event like WC07, no doubt. I'm sure, you agree that the following batters are pencilled in for WC07 - VS, SRT, RD, YS, SR, MK. MK because of the intangibles he brings to the table. We've already argued on this. Letz agree to disagree on this ). So, there is only one spot left. I hope this goes to SG/VVS just to give more experience in the big stage. But I don't think it will. It will go to a "Dinesh Mongia" 

Or it will go to a JP Yadav
Yes see the search for #6 is fine - but it has got to stop MAX by Champions Trophy in Oct - cannot keep searching.

I agree with one thing Rams is saying - the LITMUS TEST will be when we play SA-in-SA for ODI's. I have a lurking suspicion that a vast majority of the "bats" may get exposed there - among my suspicions MSD, RU (both MSD, RU move to front foot too quickly, and SA-in-SA will exploit that), VR/Kaif gonna struggle in SA. Hell, VS if not in good form, may struggle. Only RD and YS and SRT can play SA-in-SA confidently. [VVS can, but they will remember him later, when we are 30-4]

Here is where the cry for the VVS in ODI's may first sound (in DEC in SA!!!) We are gonna rush the old warhorse for the WC-07 then.

[ramshorns]

Sure no one is perfect and I agree VVS's game has flaws just like SRT has some.  I never said otherwise.  Just over analysing these and keeping a guy out where in we can use him against a side like Aus. when needed is not a good move.  Don't you think he can be in the 15 for an important event like the WC.  Also on the fielding front if we have 6-7 very good fielders and assuming VVS is the worst of all if he plays in a game we need him for his batting, I guess there will be areas in the field we can put him and minimise the losses.  That was my point.

Yes. SG/VVS will be invaluable in a big event like WC07, no doubt. I'm sure, you agree that the following batters are pencilled in for WC07 - VS, SRT, RD, YS, SR, MK. MK because of the intangibles he brings to the table. We've already argued on this. Letz agree to disagree on this ). So, there is only one spot left. I hope this goes to SG/VVS just to give more experience in the big stage. But I don't think it will. It will go to a "Dinesh Mongia" 

Or it will go to a JP Yadav

[fineleg]

i added some to above post - rams.

[ramshorns]

i added some to above post - rams.

OK read it, I think at this point we all on both sides spent lot of time and energy and made our points.  A thread that needs to be saved.

[justforkix]

It will go to a "Dinesh Mongia" 

Or it will go to a JP Yadav

yep. that is what i meant by "a dinesh mongia". I include RU/VR etc. in this category.

among my suspicions MSD, RU (both MSD, RU move to front foot too quickly, and SA-in-SA will exploit that), VR/Kaif gonna struggle in SA. Hell, VS if not in good form, may struggle.

I hope we are not playing both VR and RU in SAF in January !!! That might be last ODI tourney we play before WC07. We better take our WC07 15 and play them in SA. FYI : From now to WC07, we will be playing only 19-22 ODIs.

I agree with one thing Rams is saying - the LITMUS TEST will be when we play SA-in-SA for ODI's.

Just curious. Is the Indian team acidic ?!? The litmus test shows RED 

[achutank]

Ok Ramshorns, a question for you. If you were the selector, where would you put VVS in the current ODI setup?

First of all I will have him in the 15 and based on the conditions and the oppostion we play I will consider him putting him in the playing 11.

i would send laxman one down if dravid is ok with that or two down.

its like how we used to play in the building remember. each captain took alternative picks from the  group. so you picked the best players first and then worried about the slots in the team at which they played. so this is how i would pick the batsmen.



Dravid
VVS
Yuvi
SRT
Sehwag
Kaif
WJ

[keep-it-cool]

Cant quite see where this debate is going. We started with should VVS be confident or should he say that he is confident - I am not sure if anyone here wants to say that he should not be confident or he should tell people that he is not confident. For me, it is good he is hopeful, it is good he is confident, it is good he has not given up. A confident and hopeful Laxman is much better than a Laxman who is resigned - even if he does not make it to the ODI team, at least he will be looking to prove a point and that may translate into some good knocks in the Tests

Obviously VVS has flaws ... and he is not going to walk unquestioned into the ODI team. If India decides to play only 5 batsmen, then obviously he does not feature in the XI. Today, neither would MK or VR or anyone else. If India decides to play 6 batsmen, then the player coming in does not have to play at No.6. Depending on his strengths, he should be slotted in at an appropriate spot in the batting order. Of the options we are looking at (i.e. MK, VR, RU and VVS), at the moment there is nothing much to choose. RU may be more flexible, but he has played only one good knock so far and it is too early to judge. Ditto for VR. Between MK and VVS, if both are in good form, I would play MK coz he gets much more into the team.

Obviously, we do not have to restrict ourselves to these options. A YS or SR like player may be better fits in the ODI team coz they are more flexible. If we find one, by all means slot him in. But such players are not available by the dozen to just pick. To unearth every YS or SR, we may have to sift through 7 or 8 J P Yadav's and Badrinath's and Sodhis and Mongias and Badanis. One of these may click upfront - in which case great. But then they may not click upfront - and you need to give each of them a run of at least 5-6 games to figure out if they have it in them. Do we have so much time before the WC? What happens if a RU is horribly found out in the WI series? or in the SA series? Or, say, a Suresh Raina is discovered to have a Kambli like weakness against the short ball. Do we still carry them in the WC squad? Or do we start the search for a new replacement at the eleventh hour? Does it not help to have the likes of VVS, MK, SG as options available so that we can fall back on them in case we need to at the last moment? These are proven performers and we have seen what they have done; so if they are in form, it would not take them too long to find their feet at the international level. With all their limitations, it would still make sense to have a few of these guys (provided they are in form) rather than folks who have lost form or have exhibited a clear weakness that can be exploited. The latter cannot be ruled out, coz although we have a settled top order now and seem to have a lot of options from the A and u-19 sides, we have not seen the likes of a SR, VR, RU, Shikhar Dhawan, Rohit Sharma under all kinds of bowling conditions. Even SR, who we know has a cool head under pressure, has not played under all conditions. SRT's fitness is still a question mark. VS's return to form and ability to face short deliveries have yet to be tested against all bowlers. So, while not writing them off and while continuing to back them, we need to always have an eye on possible options, should a need arise at the last moment.

All this is not to say that VVS should have been in the WI team or should be in the WC squad. But keep him in the frame; keep SG in the frame; keep AK in the frame - in case we need a fall back option. It is healthy that they still want to force their way back in. Encourage them to keep trying; after all, there is no guarantee that you are giving them of a spot in the squad.

Now on SG and VVS. Obviously if both of them are in full flow and only one spot is available, SG walks in without a doubt. But it does appear to all of us (we do not know for sure) that the equation with SG is not the same as the equation is with VVS. Maybe GC's ego comes in SG's way, maybe having SG is a pain in the neck for the team, maybe RD has a problem - no one knows what it is; everyone has an opinion - however, practically, we have to work with the idea that there may be factors other than form that could keep SG out, while in VVS's case it primarily seems to be an issue with suitability in the team. If I were a betting man and have only two options - SG and VVS - I would put my money on VVS to make the team ahead of SG.

So, my take is, by all means let us keep looking for that ideal 6th batsman to fit into the team - it is a worthy longer term goal. If we find him before the WC, great. But if we do not, then it does absolutely no harm to have options such as VVS available to fall back on.

[achutank]

Now a question for the Jedi Masters here:

Its the second day of the match. The conditions are overcast at start of day's play. The taking of the new ball was delayed last evening because the ball was reverse swinging. there are three slips and two gullies in place. the captain throws the new ball to his 145+ paceman. do you think India has a problem because they have lost their openers yesterday on a nice summer day and now their one-down and two-down batsman are at crease? shouldn't be right. But now replace the red word in this para with "first" and then ask yourself that why should an opening specialist matter so much?

[avinashgodkhindi]

The problem is there are 3 spots in the middle order not 4. playing 4 bowlers wud be a mistake on flat ODI pitches, we need 5 owlers bcoz none of our bowlers are world class yet. so it is reasonable to expect one of them may get hit around on any given day against a strong opposition like Oz. This leaves us with the task of patching up 20 weak overs, simply not done. We need 5 bowlers. that leaves thrree spots in middle order. RD,Yuvi take two and the third is a toss between Raina and kaif. The single biggest problem with VVS is he is not ocomfy opening in ODIs and he is not comfy at positions 4, 5,6. basically he needs to come in at some time around the 10th to 16-17th over, and bat through thee innings or till the 40th. If the opening partnership goees on till the 25th over ( or any time later) VVS is not of much use, bcoz the score in such a case wwud be around 125-150 and we need someone who can maintain the momentum from the word go. VVS has to improve his runninng between the wickets and learn to rotate the strike better. With the kind of wrist work he is capable of , the second part should not be too difficult for him; he just needs to be conciously working at it. RD's improvement in ODIs should be the example e should follow. Fitness and more importantly speed in short sprints, yes it will be a bigger challenge specially after his knee injuries. If he can sort these two factors out, he can then easily play in positions 3 to 6 without necessarily sloggiing or power hitting. he is not suited for that, too much of an artist to play that kind of a game, and frankly, i think the game would be poorer and look vulgar the day we see VVS sloging, i definetly don't want that. Plus we have too many of theeem already,MSD,SRT,VS, Yuvi,IP and even AA can blast the ball. Now Powar , if he becomes a regular is another in the same genre. RD and VVS/Kaif/Raina can add a nice balance to this.

I wish VVS be a little more mentally flexible that he can come to the crease in the later overs and still contrbute signifcantly to the team's cause. Many lesser players have managed that, so for VVS its more of a mental adjustment.

Plus i want the team and physio,trainer etc to help VVS gain more speed in the short sprints. There must be some specialised trainings for that, send him whereever in the world he can get that training. He just doesnot get the speed and a quick start right now and even a 10% improvement on this front will suffice. righting him off from the ODI team plans is not fair IMHO, he is too classy a player to be left out, but he must improve on these two aspects to command a regular ODI spot.

[Blwe_torch]

flute,
Like what Sahir, rams, and I have pointed out  - running between wkts is an issue for others as well (in a different style maybe, but still not all folks are judging runs very well in current squad eg. RD, Venu-does not seem particularly great in running, VS-slower than before)

Fineleg:Any person who has a decent understanding of the game will get it.  This dismissive attitude and going out of the way to prove a player is bad though not true outlines certain likes and dislikes.  Although I can go and get atleast 25 matches of RD and prove it on this forum what a pathetic ODI player he was.  I chose not to do that because I know every dog has its good and bad day.  Also if VVS has nothing left in his tank, I will come on this DG and say so.

I faced very similar sentiments while putting forward the case in favour of SG with the same people.

[achutank]

Now a question for the Jedi Masters here:

Its the second day of the match. The conditions are overcast at start of day's play. The taking of the new ball was delayed last evening because the ball was reverse swinging. there are three slips and two gullies in place. the captain throws the new ball to his 145+ paceman. do you think India has a problem because they have lost their openers yesterday on a nice summer day and now their one-down and two-down batsman are at crease? shouldn't be right. But now replace the red word in this para with "first" and then ask yourself that why should an opening specialist matter so much?

sorry did not realize we were only concerned with ODIs here. obviously this post is on the wrong page. 

but for all the yodas there my question still remains. please answer.

[keep-it-cool]

flute,
Like what Sahir, rams, and I have pointed out  - running between wkts is an issue for others as well (in a different style maybe, but still not all folks are judging runs very well in current squad eg. RD, Venu-does not seem particularly great in running, VS-slower than before)

Fineleg:Any person who has a decent understanding of the game will get it.  This dismissive attitude and going out of the way to prove a player is bad though not true outlines certain likes and dislikes.  Although I can go and get atleast 25 matches of RD and prove it on this forum what a pathetic ODI player he was.  I chose not to do that because I know every dog has its good and bad day.  Also if VVS has nothing left in his tank, I will come on this DG and say so.

I faced very similar sentiments while putting forward the case in favour of SG with the same people.

not sure who the dog is here .. RD? SG? VVS? or someone on this DG?

[achutank]

flute,
Like what Sahir, rams, and I have pointed out  - running between wkts is an issue for others as well (in a different style maybe, but still not all folks are judging runs very well in current squad eg. RD, Venu-does not seem particularly great in running, VS-slower than before)

I chose not to do that because I know every dog has its good and bad day.[/b]  Also if VVS has nothing left in his tank, I will come on this DG and say so.

I faced very similar sentiments while putting forward the case in favour of SG with the same people.

not sure who the dog is here .. RD? SG? VVS? or someone on this DG?

and who let it out 

[Blwe_torch]

flute,
Like what Sahir, rams, and I have pointed out  - running between wkts is an issue for others as well (in a different style maybe, but still not all folks are judging runs very well in current squad eg. RD, Venu-does not seem particularly great in running, VS-slower than before)

Fineleg:Any person who has a decent understanding of the game will get it.  This dismissive attitude and going out of the way to prove a player is bad though not true outlines certain likes and dislikes.  Although I can go and get atleast 25 matches of RD and prove it on this forum what a pathetic ODI player he was.  I chose not to do that because I know every dog has its good and bad day.  Also if VVS has nothing left in his tank, I will come on this DG and say so.

I faced very similar sentiments while putting forward the case in favour of SG with the same people.

not sure who the dog is here .. RD? SG? VVS? or someone on this DG?

just the hint will suffice to convey my message to my target audience..

[ramshorns]

K-I-C, AvinashG: Very valid and good observations.  Instead of being dismissive you guys have done a darn good job of analysing the issue and how the team should have all types of players to call on, when the need be for a tournament like the WC.  Well done.   Applause for that.

Achu, The test pecking order you have is exactly what I have in mind, if you read my posts.

[Cover Point]

This is exhausting. Really. So I will pick just the one point that some one made earlier. "we will remember Lakhan in Sa when we are 30-4". Yes I agree there is a chance we could be 30/4 .... and I am sure in such a case Lakhan can come in and do a wonderful job for us .. score 80 in about 140-150 balls and take us to "respectability" ... say a 200. And this will do squat for us! India would still lose!!!!! We have just described the Dravid of a few years ago. Was a player who would always be the one standing when everyone else around him collapsed BUT his defiance never won us a match...just got us to respectability. Like I said, in such a case I would even accept an SG as an alternative. I am tired of players who can just get us to "respectability". I personally would be ok if we lose with disrespect 3 out of 4 times as long as the fourth time that defiant inning actually takes us to victory!

Its late at night so I hope I did make sense!

[ramshorns]

This is exhausting. Really. So I will pick just the one point that some one made earlier. "we will remember Lakhan in Sa when we are 30-4". Yes I agree there is a chance we could be 30/4 .... and I am sure in such a case Lakhan can come in and do a wonderful job for us .. score 80 in about 140-150 balls and take us to "respectability" ... say a 200. And this will do squat for us! India would still lose!!!!! We have just described the Dravid of a few years ago. Was a player who would always be the one standing when everyone else around him collapsed BUT his defiance never won us a match...just got us to respectability. Like I said, in such a case I would even accept an SG as an alternative. I am tired of players who can just get us to "respectability". I personally would be ok if we lose with disrespect 3 out of 4 times as long as the fourth time that defiant inning actually takes us to victory!

Its late at night so I hope I did make sense!

Sure in that case we may bowl out the opposition for less than 200, that can easily happen given a team is 30-4.  So then where is the problem.  So in certain conditions we can still use VVS, if that gives the team a chance to win.  Also good to know there is even a change in heart, here.  I even hear SG's name, which is good.

[fineleg]

This is exhausting. Really. So I will pick just the one point that some one made earlier. "we will remember Lakhan in Sa when we are 30-4". Yes I agree there is a chance we could be 30/4 .... and I am sure in such a case Lakhan can come in and do a wonderful job for us .. score 80 in about 140-150 balls and take us to "respectability" ... say a 200. And this will do squat for us! India would still lose!!!!! We have just described the Dravid of a few years ago. Was a player who would always be the one standing when everyone else around him collapsed BUT his defiance never won us a match...just got us to respectability. Like I said, in such a case I would even accept an SG as an alternative. I am tired of players who can just get us to "respectability". I personally would be ok if we lose with disrespect 3 out of 4 times as long as the fourth time that defiant inning actually takes us to victory!

Its late at night so I hope I did make sense!

CP,
No ur not making sense so late at night! Sorry!

30-4, to 110 all out - No chance

30-4 to 200 or better 220-ish - we have a chance, our bowlers can give it their best, fielders can give it their best.
So, saying it "wont do squat" is not correct.

[avinashgodkhindi]

I agree wwith ram and fineleg here, 200-220 specially with 5 bowlers may give us atleast a fighting chance,specially in some pitches. but for VVS to be more useful than this and only in such situations he will have to improve on the 2 things I mentioned earlier. Plus before selecting the dteam for a day, we ccannot go with a mindset that there is a big chance or even a reasonable chance that we will be 30-4. And now witht he supersub rule one we may some to this situation and still find that VVS was not originally addeed to the fold. So for him to make a come  back the best way is t impriove himself on those two counts, rather than worrying about how with this current type of gaame he can fit into the indian team. I strongly beleiev that he is capable of making thhose changes to his game, the question is he is mentally fully ready to make these changes and he is getting the requiste support (whole hearted out of the way support , not just words of encouragement or a couple of teips here and there)?

[fineleg]

I agree wwith ram and fineleg here, 200-220 specially with 5 bowlers may give us atleast a fighting chance,specially in some pitches. but for VVS to be more useful than this and only in such situations he will have to improve on the 2 things I mentioned earlier. Plus before selecting the dteam for a day, we ccannot go with a mindset that there is a big chance or even a reasonable chance that we will be 30-4. And now witht he supersub rule one we may some to this situation and still find that VVS was not originally addeed to the fold. So for him to make a come  back the best way is t impriove himself on those two counts, rather than worrying about how with this current type of gaame he can fit into the indian team. I strongly beleiev that he is capable of making thhose changes to his game, the question is he is mentally fully ready to make these changes and he is getting the requiste support (whole hearted out of the way support , not just words of encouragement or a couple of teips here and there)?

That highlighted stmt above is a big question mark! today.

[justforkix]

I strongly beleiev that he is capable of making thhose changes to his game, the question is he is mentally fully ready to make these changes and he is getting the requiste support (whole hearted out of the way support , not just words of encouragement or a couple of teips here and there)?

That highlighted stmt above is a big question mark! today.

Actually for me, the bigger Q mark is whether VVS is showing any improvement in running between the wickets or in his ground fielding, to fit beter into the current ODI side.

[fineleg]

I strongly beleiev that he is capable of making thhose changes to his game, the question is he is mentally fully ready to make these changes and he is getting the requiste support (whole hearted out of the way support , not just words of encouragement or a couple of teips here and there)?

That highlighted stmt above is a big question mark! today.

Actually for me, the bigger Q mark is whether VVS is showing any improvement in running between the wickets or in his ground fielding, to fit beter into the current ODI side.

Reasonable question - but put him in a ODI series and we can evaluate.

Also, add this Q to ur bigger Q, is Kaif showing any improvement in his batting!? God knows how many umpteen chances we have given to Kaif and he is SO SPECIAL we keep giving him longer rope than anyone else - and then will he be flexible for various positions? Venu - we will look at more.

Its not abt VVS is best for ODI - it is that he is relatively better than Kaif and Venu, and lets have him in the squad and keep him match fit so if we need him for ODI's in SA or WC - we will have the available resource.

[justforkix]

Reasonable question - but put him in a ODI series and we can evaluate.

Why ?!? Why can't VVS show these improvements in the test matches that he has been playing this season. you mean, he will just turn it on and show a marked improvement in ground fielding and running between wickets if he is selected for a ODI ?!? IMO, if you are in the ODI squad but in the test squad and want to play in the ODIs, you must leave no stone unturned to get into the ODI squad.

Also, add this Q to ur bigger Q, is Kaif showing any improvement in his batting!? God knows how many umpteen chances we have given to Kaif and he is SO SPECIAL we keep giving him longer rope than anyone else - and then will he be flexible for various positions?

7 ODIs is a reasonably fair rope for any established player, which is what Kaif got. I don't think he has treated specially. after that he has not played in the last 4 ODIs. he was only in the 15. Also, I think Kaif, in form, is more flexible than VVS in the different situations that he can bat.

Venu - we will look at more.

Its not abt VVS is best for ODI - it is that he is relatively better than Kaif and Venu, and lets have him in the squad and keep him match fit so if we need him for ODI's in SA or WC - we will have the available resource.

I don't agree. Venu we don't know yet. Kaif, in form, is better than VVS in ODIs. Also, if we have to try someone else instead of Kaif/Venu, SG comes in first ahead of VVS. Screw the non-cricketing reasons. I want my team to win, more than anything else. SG is a much better ODI player than VVS. So, SG gives the team a much better chance to win than VVS. This is not saying VVS is bad or anything. just that SG is a better option than VVS to try out first.

Also, there is no point keeping SG and VVS in the 15 right now and not playing them. If indeed we want SG or VVS for WC, we can upon them anytime. They are experienced and can fit into the ODIs straightaway.