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[fineleg]

NDTV: Sachin Vs Gavaskar: Cricketing



Sachin Tendulkar, who turns 33 today, has many world records to his credit. But perhaps the most important one is his tally of 35 Test centuries.

The previous record holder, Sunil Gavaskar retired from Test cricket in 1987 and Sachin was not only his protege but also the player expected to overtake his record of 34 tons.

Although comparisons between the two players have been plenty, apart from the fact that they are both from Mumbai, there is not much in common.

The association began a few years ago. When Tendulkar did not win the prestigious BCA trophy for best cricketer of the year he got a letter from Sunil Gavaskar telling him not to worry since he had not got it either. <<curious if SMG was "secretly" happy SRT did not get it either!

That certainly was one of several similarities but there are plenty of differences as well.

Gavaskar was the man who's batting you could bet your life on. He played more match saving knocks and had a much tougher job as an opener facing the new ball music.

Tendulkar meanwhile is always considered a top contender in any debate on the best batsman of all times because of his attacking stroke play and the fact that he dominated in both versions of the game.

Comparisons often irritate most cricketers and therefore it is fair to say that the man with a total of 13 Test hundreds against the West Indies has his own special place in cricketing history as does his protege who is no less famous in all parts of the world.

[fineleg]

On another note,
IF any of u find on Internet or upload to Internet, Indian past cricketer videos, please post the URL:
1. SMG batting
2. Jimmy Amarnath Batting
3. G.Vishwanath batting - heard a lot, but haven't had the chance to see much

Would be interesting to watch.

[Sahir]

Not really worth adding to the collection since it is only 7 seconds long, but since you requested it, here is Gavaskar using his feet nicely, coming down the track, and driving the offspinner straight down the ground:

<a href="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-4899172106468164863" target="_blank">http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-4899172106468164863</a>

[fineleg]

Not really worth adding to the collection since it is only 7 seconds long, but since you requested it, here is Gavaskar using his feet nicely, coming down the track, and driving the offspinner straight down the ground:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4899172106468164863&q=gavaskar&pl=true

thanks - will try to be on the lookout for vdo's of our older batsmen.

[ramshorns]

Not really worth adding to the collection since it is only 7 seconds long, but since you requested it, here is Gavaskar using his feet nicely, coming down the track, and driving the offspinner straight down the ground:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4899172106468164863&q=gavaskar&pl=true

Gavaskar's straight drive of the fast bowlers on either side of the wicket was a sight to behold.  There was no better sight in cricket IMO.  I have seen it many times against the likes of Imran,Marshall,Holding et al.

[ramshorns]

On another note,
IF any of u find on Internet or upload to Internet, Indian past cricketer videos, please post the URL:
1. SMG batting
2. Jimmy Amarnath Batting
3. G.Vishwanath batting - heard a lot, but haven't had the chance to see much

Would be interesting to watch.

Vishy was an artist.   I will describe his greatness in one line. 

Take a player and name what that players favorite stroke is.  Then bring Vishy in to compare them with.  They will finish a distant second.

[fineleg]

On another note,
IF any of u find on Internet or upload to Internet, Indian past cricketer videos, please post the URL:
1. SMG batting
2. Jimmy Amarnath Batting
3. G.Vishwanath batting - heard a lot, but haven't had the chance to see much

Would be interesting to watch.

Vishy was an artist.   I will describe his greatness in one line. 

Take a player and name what that players favorite stroke is.  Then bring Vishy in to compare them with.  They will finish a distant second.

I've heard sq.cut was vishy's strength...to say any player's fav stroke...sounds surreal...
Maybe vishy was surreal...

I love backfoot coverdrive of SRT feet raised a bit,
 frontfoot coverdrive of RD leaning into it,
 pull of Ponting - ferocious,
 on-drive Mark Waugh - just timing and touch
ofcourse, the flick to midwicket from outside the offstump by VVS and Azza...

[ramshorns]

On another note,
IF any of u find on Internet or upload to Internet, Indian past cricketer videos, please post the URL:
1. SMG batting
2. Jimmy Amarnath Batting
3. G.Vishwanath batting - heard a lot, but haven't had the chance to see much

Would be interesting to watch.

Vishy was an artist.   I will describe his greatness in one line. 

Take a player and name what that players favorite stroke is.  Then bring Vishy in to compare them with.  They will finish a distant second.

I've heard sq.cut was vishy's strength...to say any player's fav stroke...sounds surreal...
Maybe vishy was surreal...

I love backfoot coverdrive of SRT feet raised a bit,
 frontfoot coverdrive of RD leaning into it,
 pull of Ponting - ferocious,
 on-drive Mark Waugh - just timing and touch
ofcourse, the flick to midwicket from outside the offstump by VVS and Azza...

Fineleg:I will tell you a real story.  1975-76, we were chasing 404 in WI against Lloyd's team.  Micheal Holding was in his prime.  We lost SMG after his 100 and we are still 230 odd away from the win.  They take the second new ball.  Vishy was probably in the 70's and looking at his sublime best and taking the attack apart.  As you know Vishy was the master of the cut stroke.  So for that Lloyd had 2 men manning the 3rd man boundary.  One Square and one fine.  But such was Vishy's command that day he bisected them both and ball would thud into the hoardings in a flash.  One of the 4 was so unbelievable that when Holding thought he had Vishy beat to the keeper the moment it passed the wicket god knows how he played it so late, the next thing you know one of the two 3rd man fielders were picking the ball from the boundary.  That assault on the 2nd new ball knocked the wind out of the sails of the WI's and put India on path to victory.  Finally when he was runout, Jimmy Amarnath was still there to see us through.  Also Vishy's share of the 159 patnership, 112.  That is why Vishy is so great, produce that vintage wine in 4th innings of a test match and we win.  I rate Vishy the greatest match winner of all time for India.  Not just this one knock I can list close to 10 where we won or atleast we drew from hopeless situations.

[tombaan]

couple of things here
vishy's hundred many cases resulted in indian win
gavaskars hundred ensured a draw....

[fineleg]

That is why Vishy is so great, produce that vintage wine in 4th innings of a test match and we win.  I rate Vishy the greatest match winner of all time for India.  Not just this one knock I can list close to 10 where we won or atleast we drew from hopeless situations.

Very exciting to read - thanks. It only increases my longing to see some video on the Internet whenever I find that match footage of G.V.

[senthilpeter]

Ramshorns, do list a few more of Vishy's heroics. Also, give ur take on why Vishy is not talked of these days in exalted tones if he was indeed what you say he was. I never saw him play, so no clue. Obviously, you were exagerrating when you said that any stroke he played was better than any other batsmen, but thats fine. I just want to know what made him less famous if he was so good.

Also, I once heard from a friend who followed cricket back then that he had issues facing Imran Khan. Is this fiction or is it true, even if in a qualified way?

[kban1]

Senthilpeter:

vishy was an artist par excellence --I would say his game was even more aesthetically pleasing than Azzu or VVS --and thats saying quite a lot.

Among Vishy's famous strokes would be his square cut, his late cut and cover drive (also his leg side strokes). Silken class was a probably a phrase coined to describe Vishy. And where he also scored over Azza and VVS was 1) his mastery on bad / bowler friendly wickets and 2) his mastery over both genuine pace and spin.

Wrt to Imran and his failures, Vishy was going through a bad patch formwise when India went to Pak in 1983 and Imran with the ball had the series of his life (40 wickets). In each of the tests, it was not Imran with the new ball but Imran with the old ball who was devastating -- literally banana swing, especially his inswingers or indippers as they were referred to. Not one Indian batsman save Jimmy Amarnath and to an extent SMG had an answer to Imran's bowling and guile.

And Vishy in the middle of bad form happened to come into the crease when Imran with the old ball was wrecking havoc -- in successive tests, Imran's 2nd ball efforts were somewhat like this -- 32 balls, 8 runs, 5 wickets  / 29 balls, 12 runs, 5 wickets / 36 balls, 3 runs, 5 wickets. Cricinfo ran a story on this series and Imran's bowling and labelled this as the first series in international cricket when reverse swing (a hithertho unheard of phenomenon, definitely did not have  a name) was born. Indian batsmen would expect the ball to go one way, the ball would swing viciously the other way -- exemplified by Imran's dismissal of Vishy where the ball pitched about 2-3 feet outside off, Vishy shouldered arms, and the ball swung in like a banana to clip the top of middle stump (All I can say is Asif's dismissal of VVS pales in comparison to this delivery).

Coming back to Vishy though, he was a master player of pace -- Lillee, pascoe, Andy Roberts and Holding will attest to that. So it was not that he was lacking --he was out of form and in the middle of that came up against a once in a decade performance by Imran.

[keep-it-cool]

I read this somewhere - every time Vishy scored a century, India won the test... have not checked myself ...

[fineleg]

Ramshorns, do list a few more of Vishy's heroics. Also, give ur take on why Vishy is not talked of these days in exalted tones if he was indeed what you say he was. I never saw him play, so no clue. Obviously, you were exagerrating when you said that any stroke he played was better than any other batsmen, but thats fine. I just want to know what made him less famous if he was so good.

Also, I once heard from a friend who followed cricket back then that he had issues facing Imran Khan. Is this fiction or is it true, even if in a qualified way?

Actually I also wanted to ask this question to Rams - sounds like he was an amazing player, but as senthil says, he is not talked of these days in the same exalted tones that is applied to say SMG - why is that?

Why do more people not talk abt Vishy these days - sad that we have forgotten that hero - compare how much news comes even today of greatness of Wadekar, Gavaskar, Kapil Dev, even BS Bedi - agreed all great guys, but why is GV information "so quiet"!


Senthil - Rams has lotsa interesting info abt Vishy that we once discussed on a chat. Not sure if they saved the info, but yes, it will be good to have more scenarios listed. I am also excited to imagine "those days", and listen to stories told of the great players of that era.

[ramshorns]

Also, I once heard from a friend who followed cricket back then that he had issues facing Imran Khan. Is this fiction or is it true, even if in a qualified way?

Senthil, If your friend based his judging Vishy on this one series against  PAK which is his last, then the parallel to that would be saying that SRT had problems throughout his career based on this past test series against Eng.  As for Vishy's struggles against Imran, yes that was for that last series Vishy played after which he was dropped.  He was woefully out of form.  Also in one prior series in 1978-79 he had 145 in Faisalabad against Imran, Sarfaraz and company.  If that answers your question.

Also for all the time I will be taking to prove how Vishy is the greatest match winner of all time for India there is a little something you can do for me .  Once you are convinced that Vishy is too good I want you to go to your friend ask to turn around and give him a old fashioned butt kicking for giving you such impressions.  I think it is a fair ask.

I will do this as time permits via Posts on this thread as well as PM to you.

[ramshorns]

I read this somewhere - every time Vishy scored a century, India won the test... have not checked myself ...

K-I-C, It is not that India won all the tests that Vishy scored a 100.  It so happended we never lost a test in the 14 tests he scored a century.  Either WIN or DRAW.  Now that got to be some record, a better stat than anything I know.

[keep-it-cool]

I read this somewhere - every time Vishy scored a century, India won the test... have not checked myself ...

K-I-C, It is not that India won all the tests that Vishy scored a 100.  It so happended we never lost a test in the 14 tests he scored a century.  Either WIN or DRAW.  Now that got to be some record, a better stat than anything I know.

Oh, ok thanx ... even that isn't so bad, is it? Any idea how many of those we won?

[senthilpeter]

Also, I once heard from a friend who followed cricket back then that he had issues facing Imran Khan. Is this fiction or is it true, even if in a qualified way?

Senthil, If your friend based his judging Vishy on this one series against  PAK which is his last, then the parallel to that would be saying that SRT had problems throughout his career based on this past test series against Eng.  As for Vishy's struggles against Imran, yes that was for that last series Vishy played after which he was dropped.  He was woefully out of form.  Also in one prior series in 1978-79 he had 145 in Faisalabad against Imran, Sarfaraz and company.  If that answers your question.

Also for all the time I will be taking to prove how Vishy is the greatest match winner of all time for India there is a little something you can do for me .  Once you are convinced that Vishy is too good I want you to go to your friend ask to turn around and give him a old fashioned butt kicking for giving you such impressions.  I think it is a fair ask.

I will do this as time permits via Posts on this thread as well as PM to you.

Sure Rams.... a kick will be executed with silken touch at the earliest opportunity, which will be as as soon as I get to Chennai next

About Vishy vs Imran, I get the idea. You and kban have clarified it very well. So it appears that India just folded up to Imran's reversing...

[senthilpeter]

kban, thanks for the informative post.. apples ur way. (on loan from Sahir) 

[ramshorns]

Ramshorns, do list a few more of Vishy's heroics. Also, give ur take on why Vishy is not talked of these days in exalted tones if he was indeed what you say he was. I never saw him play, so no clue. Obviously, you were exagerrating when you said that any stroke he played was better than any other batsmen, but thats fine. I just want to know what made him less famous if he was so good.

Also, I once heard from a friend who followed cricket back then that he had issues facing Imran Khan. Is this fiction or is it true, even if in a qualified way?

Actually I also wanted to ask this question to Rams - sounds like he was an amazing player, but as senthil says, he is not talked of these days in the same exalted tones that is applied to say SMG - why is that?

Why do more people not talk abt Vishy these days - sad that we have forgotten that hero - compare how much news comes even today of greatness of Wadekar, Gavaskar, Kapil Dev, even BS Bedi - agreed all great guys, but why is GV information "so quiet"!


Senthil - Rams has lotsa interesting info abt Vishy that we once discussed on a chat. Not sure if they saved the info, but yes, it will be good to have more scenarios listed. I am also excited to imagine "those days", and listen to stories told of the great players of that era.

FineLeg/Senthil, Just because Vishy is not in the news does not mean the other gents mentioned above are any better cricketers.  It is only that these gentlemen know how to hog the limelight.  Vishy throughout his career was that way.  Unassuming, simple and very helpful to his teammates.  There was a saying back in those days about Vishy 'He would not even hurt a fly'.  To a point it also shows how misled passionate cricket fans like you are when you think Vishy is not that great.

Our media goes out of the way to brew controversy after controversy on the SG issue although it lacked any substance whatsoever.  And even on this DG those threads are a big hit.  When there is a thread dedicated to the likes of Vishy no one would even visit.  I am not blaming you guys at all.  But that is the day and age we live in today, wherein hero's sometimes are tightcast as villan's.  Where in a Yuvraj and HS who run their mouth to hog the limelight are more popular with the kids than proven perfomers like VVS and RD.

Like I said I will do my best to bring to notice some of Vishy's exploits as I remember them from my childhood.   Fineleg you already have some PM's from me on that, and you need to read those and get an understanding.  Then you will atleast know there is lot more to Indian cricket than SMG or SRT.

[ramshorns]

I read this somewhere - every time Vishy scored a century, India won the test... have not checked myself ...

K-I-C, It is not that India won all the tests that Vishy scored a 100.  It so happended we never lost a test in the 14 tests he scored a century.  Either WIN or DRAW.  Now that got to be some record, a better stat than anything I know.

Oh, ok thanx ... even that isn't so bad, is it? Any idea how many of those we won?

Probably 6 or 7 at the least.

[ramshorns]

Senthil:Keep checking your PM, Inbox.  I started with some.  Again I will give you some personal touches as well from my side.

[keep-it-cool]

I read this somewhere - every time Vishy scored a century, India won the test... have not checked myself ...

K-I-C, It is not that India won all the tests that Vishy scored a 100.  It so happended we never lost a test in the 14 tests he scored a century.  Either WIN or DRAW.  Now that got to be some record, a better stat than anything I know.

Oh, ok thanx ... even that isn't so bad, is it? Any idea how many of those we won?

Probably 6 or 7 at the least.

thanx

[senthilpeter]

Senthil:Keep checking your PM, Inbox.  I started with some.  Again I will give you some personal touches as well from my side.

Thanks mate. will do.

[ramshorns]

Kban1:Applause to you for that post on Vishy and clearing up some of Senthil's doubts. 

The only thing I would add among Vishy, Azhar, VVS the artists my ranks 1)Vishy 2)VVS 3)Azhar.  This is based just not on the style and strokes but the circumstances and the situation they produced it.  Vishy was hands down great against Pace and Spin.  So he is undisputed No1.  Between Azhar and VVS, where VVS scores is again VVS was better at handling quality pace when the chips were down and Azhar failed in that dept.  VVS has match winning knocks in Aus and in WI.  Against spinners both were equally good, with footwork as well as stroke range.  Hence my rating.

[Sahir]

Kban1:Applause to you for that post on Vishy and clearing up some of Senthil's doubts. 

The only thing I would add among Vishy, Azhar, VVS the artists my ranks 1)Vishy 2)VVS 3)Azhar.  This is based just not on the style and strokes but the circumstances and the situation they produced it.  Vishy was hands down great against Pace and Spin.  So he is undisputed No1.  Between Azhar and VVS, where VVS scores is again VVS was better at handling quality pace when the chips were down and Azhar failed in that dept.  VVS has match winning knocks in Aus and in WI.  Against spinners both were equally good, with footwork as well as stroke range.  Hence my rating.

ramshorns, you seem to be mixing your analysis.  Firstly, you are rating the batsmen as artists, but then ranking them based not on artistry, but scores in specific situations, as opposed to aesthetic beauty of batsmanship.

[ramshorns]

Kban1:Applause to you for that post on Vishy and clearing up some of Senthil's doubts. 

The only thing I would add among Vishy, Azhar, VVS the artists my ranks 1)Vishy 2)VVS 3)Azhar.  This is based just not on the style and strokes but the circumstances and the situation they produced it.  Vishy was hands down great against Pace and Spin.  So he is undisputed No1.  Between Azhar and VVS, where VVS scores is again VVS was better at handling quality pace when the chips were down and Azhar failed in that dept.  VVS has match winning knocks in Aus and in WI.  Against spinners both were equally good, with footwork as well as stroke range.  Hence my rating.

ramshorns, you seem to be mixing your analysis.  Firstly, you are rating the batsmen as artists, but then ranking them based not on artistry, but scores in specific situations, as opposed to aesthetic beauty of batsmanship.

Sahir, Among the three Vishy is the best and between Azhar and VVS both are equally good and pleasing to the eyes. Only that VVS is a better player of pace than Azhar.  I only threw the match winning scenarios as a bonus to highlight the artistry and style has some contribution to team wins as well.  Hope I am a little more clear this time.  If not I will try again.

[gouravk]

Unfortunately never got to see Vishy. Saw a lot of Azhar and Laxman tho and very happy about it.

From what I hear from my father even some of Rahul Dravid's strokes are reminiscent of Vishy, the flick and the cut in particular.

Among the younger lot Venugopal has some strokes similar to the great man.

[fineleg]

Unfortunately never got to see Vishy. Saw a lot of Azhar and Laxman tho and very happy about it.

From what I hear from my father even some of Rahul Dravid's strokes are reminiscent of Vishy, the flick and the cut in particular.

Among the younger lot Venugopal has some strokes similar to the great man.

Venu!? Not sure at all.

RD - I like his cut, but I love his front foot cover drive! mmm.
Someone who has old Vishy tapes (rams - hint, hint!), could upload them to the internet - just kidding.

[ramshorns]

Unfortunately never got to see Vishy. Saw a lot of Azhar and Laxman tho and very happy about it.

From what I hear from my father even some of Rahul Dravid's strokes are reminiscent of Vishy, the flick and the cut in particular.

Among the younger lot Venugopal has some strokes similar to the great man.

Venu!? Not sure at all.

RD - I like his cut, but I love his front foot cover drive! mmm.
Someone who has old Vishy tapes (rams - hint, hint!), could upload them to the internet - just kidding.

Fineleg:The only Vishy innings I watched were highlights of 114 in 1981, Melbourne, 113 in Lords 1979 and some other footages of his strokeplay.  I do not have any personal collection though.  That motivates me to find some.  Also I watched him in person when Karantaka played Hyd in HYD, All India SBI for Moin-ud-dowla in HYD, SZ against visitng teams in HYD.  All the regional teams Vishy represented.

[fineleg]

Rams,
how abt the comparison that GK makes above?
Venu ? I personally doubt he will compare to GV - just coz I dont even think he compares to RD.
But, what abt those 2 RD things that GK mentions? Is his dad's observation in synch with urs?

[ramshorns]

Rams,
how abt the comparison that GK makes above?
Venu ? I personally doubt he will compare to GV - just coz I dont even think he compares to RD.
But, what abt those 2 RD things that GK mentions? Is his dad's observation in synch with urs?

Fineleg:I think RD plays both these strokes well and naturally draws a comparison to Vishy.  But I think to me Vishy is more accomplished than RD with both the flick and the cut shot.   I have seen both bat and that is my observation.

[senthilpeter]

Unfortunately never got to see Vishy. Saw a lot of Azhar and Laxman tho and very happy about it.

From what I hear from my father even some of Rahul Dravid's strokes are reminiscent of Vishy, the flick and the cut in particular.

Among the younger lot Venugopal has some strokes similar to the great man.

Yall can hang on and cherish the drive, the flick and whatever else. I'll be elated the day I see an Indina batsman play the pull shot like Ponting does.
Or is as dismissive of short pitched fast bowling as Inzi... ah what a treat!

[toney]

senthil, till Inzy plays fast bowling in Aus the same way, I'll be a bit wary of those praises you shower on him.
As for RP, lemme do a Gourav here. I remember watching him play his first series against WI and gee, he played beautifully at the Gabba. This was against Walsh, Ambrose and a couple of other useful quickies on a green and bouncy pitch. Yummy!!! I knew from that moment that he was destined for greatness.
 I know SRT is nowhere nearly as good at playing the pull but there is no greater joy than watching him tonk a few guys when he gets the pull going. The straight and on drives are his best shots but I always associated a confident SRT with one who loves playing the pull.

PS: My fascination with pull shots is mainly because I am an extremely poor player on the front foot. So I keep waiting on the back foot and am usually in good position to face up to the short balls. I love playing the pull and pull it off usually because of this too. In contrast, I have been bowled by rank full tosses and that is usually a great way to dismiss me.

[gouravk]

Yeah Inzy has never really done that well in TESTS in australia.

[ramshorns]

Unfortunately never got to see Vishy. Saw a lot of Azhar and Laxman tho and very happy about it.

From what I hear from my father even some of Rahul Dravid's strokes are reminiscent of Vishy, the flick and the cut in particular.

Among the younger lot Venugopal has some strokes similar to the great man.

Yall can hang on and cherish the drive, the flick and whatever else. I'll be elated the day I see an Indina batsman play the pull shot like Ponting does.
Or is as dismissive of short pitched fast bowling as Inzi... ah what a treat!

I hate to again bring players from the yester year.  Vishy did that, pull with disdain like a ponting and Jimmy amarnath used the hook shot to good affect to dimiss, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Marshall in one series in 1983, where he scored 570 odd runs in 4-5 matches earning a praise from the WI's as the best player of pace.

[toney]

yeah, rams. I agree about Amarnath being a wonderful puller. More than being dismissive of the bowler, his technique in playing the pull and hook shots was superb.

[ramshorns]

yeah, rams. I agree about Amarnath being a wonderful puller. More than being dismissive of the bowler, his technique in playing the pull and hook shots was superb.

I am telling you this Jimmy guy is darn good.

[fineleg]

Unfortunately never got to see Vishy. Saw a lot of Azhar and Laxman tho and very happy about it.

From what I hear from my father even some of Rahul Dravid's strokes are reminiscent of Vishy, the flick and the cut in particular.

Among the younger lot Venugopal has some strokes similar to the great man.

Yall can hang on and cherish the drive, the flick and whatever else. I'll be elated the day I see an Indina batsman play the pull shot like Ponting does.
Or is as dismissive of short pitched fast bowling as Inzi... ah what a treat!

I hate to again bring players from the yester year.  Vishy did that, pull with disdain like a ponting and Jimmy amarnath used the hook shot to good affect to dimiss, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Marshall in one series in 1983, where he scored 570 odd runs in 4-5 matches earning a praise from the WI's as the best player of pace.

Rams,
Don't hate to bring that - bring it on with pleasure.
Many of us may not have been able to watch Vishy/Jimmy as much - maybe only seen bits and pieces. So, good to get the information. RP's pull is fantastic, and I wonder why India lost the art and did not learn from Vishy/Jimmy.

[toney]

Many of us may not have been able to watch Vishy/Jimmy as much - maybe only seen bits and pieces.

Fineleg, which bits of Jimmy and Vishy did you see?

PS: For all non mallus, bit is a popularly used term for raunchy scenes in movies.