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[tombaan]

http://ia.rediff.com/election/2006/apr/21pinter.htm?q=np&file=.htm

The profiles of the founder members of the newly launched Lok Paritran political party are impressive. Tanmay Rajpurohit, the National President, studied aerospace engineering at IIT Mumbai before doing a Masters in it at Georgia Tech, US, and a Masters in Economics at New York University. Srikant Chakravarti is a young lawyer. Chandrasekhar is from IIT Kanpur; Ajit Ashwalayan Shukla, from IIT Mumbai; and Chief Advisor Santhanagopalan Vasudev holds a PhD in Economics from New York University.

After launching Lok Paritran a few months ago, the party has decided to plunge into the assembly elections by contesting in Tamil Nadu, Pondicherry and

[LosingNow]

Good find Tombaan. I hope they can implement what they believe. There are/were many good ideas in the world (according to some on this DG, communism is/was one ;-))..the key is to successfully implement them. Easier said than done.

[toney]

At least, these guys are doing something. The very fact that they want to give something back to the socety is praiseworthy.

[ramshorns]

I hope they can transform their intellectual abilties into politics and lay a good political structure for others to follow as well that a great country like India deserves.  It is time to get away from the present uneducated/corrupt/murder based politics and politicians.  The Indian people deserve much better and I think these gentlemen with wisdom acquired through hard work and time spent on the right things will provide the leadership.  May god bless them.

[bouncer]

My questions,

What do they stand for?

Seems like a lot of caring guys with high education. And then.....?

[feverpitch]

Bouncer,

Let me try answering that:

Higher Education = Ummm... Ok!
Higher Education + merkin degree = Good!
Higher Education + merkin degree + High Caste = Now you're talking!
Higher Education + merkin degree + High Caste + Claim to doing something for 'the good of the country' = Sharukh Khan in Swades!
Higher Education + merkin degree + High Caste + Claim to doing something for 'the good of the country' + All in the name of sanatan dharma = 

[bouncer]

Bouncer,

Let me try answering that:

Higher Education = Ummm... Ok!
Higher Education + merkin degree = Good!
Higher Education + merkin degree + High Caste = Now you're talking!
Higher Education + merkin degree + High Caste + Claim to doing something for 'the good of the country' = Sharukh Khan in Swades!
Higher Education + merkin degree + High Caste + Claim to doing something for 'the good of the country' + All in the name of sanatan dharma = 

LOL.

[feverpitch]

see... now the smites have started to come again...

[natty]

AFAIK there are very few startup political parties.   This seems like a new trend.. of educated people getting into startups.. maybe such startups will influence the way the bigger parties operate and eventually the political system.

Frankly, I can only see positives in this. And kudos to these dudes for thinking different.

[bouncer]

AFAIK there are very few startup political parties.   This seems like a new trend.. of educated people getting into startups.. maybe such startups will influence the way the bigger parties operate and eventually the political system.

Frankly, I can only see positives in this. And kudos to these dudes for thinking different.

One does not make a trend.

There are educated people as well as primary school drop-outs in every Indian political party. 

Has anyone heard about the Naxalites in the 70's?

[ramshorns]

see... now the smites have started to come again...

One advice.  Don't worry about smites when you speak your mind.  Also one question and I am always puzzled with this.  What defines a high caste and who belong to this.  The last I checked it is the govt. that defines this and give them some reservations based on the castes.  Should'nt it be based on the socio-economic than based on the caste. 

[ramshorns]

My questions,

What do they stand for?

Seems like a lot of caring guys with high education. And then.....?

I hope for something better than all the goons who rule the roost today and leading the country and the innocents in the wrong path.

[ramshorns]

Also Fever while we are on this smite count thing, your ratio is lot better than lots of folks who stay away from this non cricket threads and participate in what this DG is about.  CRICKET.  So you are making out OK.

[feverpitch]

Should'nt it be based on the socio-economic than based on the caste. 

Couldn't agree more! Problem is, either way, it will inevitably become a tool in the hands of the politicians to indulge in votebank politics eventually. If there has to be a solution, imho, it has to be time bound and based on constant adaptation to ground realities and generational advances. The mechanism is sadly beyond me.

[ramshorns]

Should'nt it be based on the socio-economic than based on the caste. 

Couldn't agree more! Problem is, either way, it will inevitably become a tool in the hands of the politicians to indulge in votebank politics eventually. If there has to be a solution, imho, it has to be time bound and based on constant adaptation to ground realities and generational advances. The mechanism is sadly beyond me.

I think now you are talking.  Yes you are right and sadly the reservation policy formulated by DR.Ambedkar though made sense back in the day does not fit the present India.  Case in point the sons of IAS officers who became one based on the reservation back in the day are again IAS or some other higher professions because they are taking advantage of a system which is very obsolete.   Mind you these are the Kids of the family that was lifted out of poverty and misery which was good the first time around.  Now these folks should not get a reservation because they are kids of a economically OK family and hence should compete with the rest of them.

Because the present system will not be revamped under the present set of politicians there is nothing wrong with a new generation of poiticians with new ideas like this one you said is in the wings.  They did well in the field they took up through hard work and not taking short cuts.  Hence I am willing to invest in them and willing to give them a chance.  They can do no worse than the present crop who you know will do nothing as you said except for protecting the vote banks playing with people's emotions.

[feverpitch]

Because the present system will not be revamped under the present set of politicians there is nothing wrong with a new generation of poiticians with new ideas like this one you said is in the wings.  They did well in the field they took up through hard work and not taking short cuts.  Hence I am willing to invest in them and willing to give them a chance.  They can do no worse than the present crop who you know will do nothing as you said except for protecting the vote banks playing with people's emotions.

Sorry, I cannot fetishize anything just because it's new! That's like saying, Salman Khan likes shooting black buck, it's kewl, so let's all just do it! Not a good analogy, but I hope you'll get my point!

This is why history is indeed important. It DOES teach us lessons! If we're willing to learn from it, that is!

As for caste based reservations, I do not agree that benefits have gone ONLY to the powerful few. Why? Because there is NO statistical data to back this up. It's the powerful amongst the section who have enjoyed caste-based reservation privileges [as with the powerful section within any social group], IMHO, who however get the spotlight for their wrongdoings, and blight the chances of the rest, within the given system of reservations. Not that it means I support reservations as it is now per se. A few points here:

1. It's wrong to expect that the children of the marginalised who have enjoyed the benefits of reservation will automatically become model citizens, when we don't expect the same of the children of the historically privileged upper castes TOO! To take up your example — for every son/daughter of a SC/ST/OBC IAS officer who misuse their power, HOW MANY UPPER CASTE SONS/DAUGHTERS OF IAS OFFICERS DO WE KNOW OF WHO HAVE DONE THE SAME?

2. The problem with reservation or any other policy for that matter in a electoral democracy is that it all depends on perception — and in such a system as this, it is compounded by the fact that the capitalist system IMHO promotes a tendency of hedging on the immediate present rather than the distant future, and a 'forgetting' of the past. And reservation/discrimination [whether +ve or not] flies in the face of the tenets of electoral democracy — which is, at least nominally/percievably, egalitarian. However, our perceptions ALWAYS carry biases, so they are always partially wrong!

Historical wrongs, if they are identified as wrongs [ie, if a moral basis of judgement is accepted], need to be righted, though using a system that enforces least cost on human life, so as to create a level playing ground for everyone, and to ameliorate tensions within a society.

3. Also, just as a few examples of misuse can be highlighted in the disbursal of benefits in the name of reservation, similarly, many instances of apathy towards say hiring of SC/ST candidates in say govt jobs can be found out — where, the non-hiring can be blamed on the upper caste preponderance in the upper echelons on power where the decisions are made. In fact, a few years down the line, the lack of good candidates is then used to justify the scrapping of the privilege. Actually, in a society as ancient and as complex and heterogeneous as ours, loyalties, identities etc. cannot be captured by a simple equation based only on caste. A honest system has to take in various factors in a dynamic framework, and that unfortunately is not a good object for votebank politics.

.................................................

To go back to the lokparitran party, IMHO, religion [which is essentially an exclutionary system] CANNOT be allowed to play a role in policy formation in a multiethnic and heterogeneous society, whether it be to provide electoral sops to minorities like the marriage code, or imposition of majoritarian ideas as universal norms. There has to be a filter, at the least, from what is essentially an exclutionary system, in order to extract the universal, if any. Maybe I'm coloured by my proximity to one of the founders, but so far, I have seen no such filter in the ideological standpoints of the said party. As some have pointed out, it might well be my 'perceived' lack of knowledge of the Vedas, but I've not seen anyone take me up on that yet, other than join the chorus for banning me... suspiciously like the 'flock of lambs' who became Hitler's willing executioners!

[ramshorns]

Because the present system will not be revamped under the present set of politicians there is nothing wrong with a new generation of poiticians with new ideas like this one you said is in the wings.  They did well in the field they took up through hard work and not taking short cuts.  Hence I am willing to invest in them and willing to give them a chance.  They can do no worse than the present crop who you know will do nothing as you said except for protecting the vote banks playing with people's emotions.

Sorry, I cannot fetishize anything just because it's new! This is why history is indeed important. It DOES teach us lessons! If we're willing to learn from them, that is!

As for caste based reservations, I do not agree that benefits have gone ONLY to the powerful few. Why? Because there is NO statistical data to back this up. It's the powerful amongst the section who have enjoyed caste-based reservation priviledges [as with the powerful section within any social group], IMHO, who however get the spotlight for their wrongdoings, and blight the chances of the rest, within the given system of reservations. Not that it means I support reservations as it is now per se. A few points here:

1. It's wrong to expect that the children of the marginalised who have enjoyed the benefits of reservation will automatically become model citizens, when we don't expect the same of the children of the historically priviledged upper castes TOO! For every son/daughter of a SC/ST/OBC IAS officer who misuse their power, HOW MANY UPPER CASTE SONS/DAUGHTERS OF IAS OFFICERS DO WE KNOW OF WHO HAVE DONE THE SAME?

to be continued... ...

When you continue can you give me who the so called UPPER CASTE people are and who fit in there.  As I see it today except for the Govt. categorising them(Low caste/Upper caste) for the sake of reservations there is nothing the UPPER caste enjoys or take advantage over the others as you claim today.  Or is it a case of you getting confused that rich and powerful are UPPER CASTE.  That's why if can give me the specifics I can show you numerous example and bring them to light that enjoy and have more power and money you feel fall under LOW CASTE.

[dextrous]

Hah, so being an untouchable/lower caste is no longer an issue in the country? When we look at them, we treat them as equals? We would have no problem if a lower caste man married an upper caste woman? We don't ever talk in our houses about the "lower caste"? We don't see them as unworthy and look down upon them?

[WE=Collective way of looking, stereotyping]

Sorry, but that's akin to believing the right-wing of America that believes Whites are not getting their due because Blacks, hispanics, and Asians are running down their country and taking their women.

[senthilpeter]

Folks, the reactions on this thread thus far, barring one or two, are very akin to the the comments that sprung up on the IE website when they ran this news story a while ago. What I saw then and see now is a vexed population's hopeful admiration for a few who seemingly are out to fix a broken system. This is natural - since most of us are far removed from the workings of the system and dont believe we'll ever directly change it, we are always willing to throw our moral support behind anyone that comes along promising to do that.
As a first step, this is fine. But one has to take a bit more time and wonder whether our unqualified support does not merit a greater look-in. As in, should we not withhold our complete support till we have more of a solid ground to believe these founders of the new party are indeed for the better? I know we think it can't get any worse than now, but is that really true? Can't misguided ideologies (Pol Pot for ex) make life a whoooole lot more miserable?
Hence atleast myself, I watch carefully and hold my approval in abeyance.

Next, a word on the common refrain -- that politicians are what run the country into the ground. That they are corrupt or self-serving is not too far from the truth. But I think this does not automatically translate into them being the real scourge. I know its a simplistic connection and most people make it without a whole lot of thought or insight into the actual governmental mechanisms. How many of us ever give much thought to the actual role of the bloated bureaucracy in the Indian govt? The Humphrey Applebys and their fiefdom if you will....
I have a friend who had the chance study with a bunch of babus at Kennedy School of Govt. And got some great insight into the fact that the babus more often than not dictate and direct policy. Not that politicans dont have their say, sure they do, but usually they dont understand the ABC of the ministry they govern, and hence are completely dependent on the babu-dom. For ex, how many of you think Lalloo (or any X in his place) would really know even an iota of what it takes to run the Railways and what tweaks would go, how far, in fixing up the system?? Simply, he trusts his boys while making it clear that his votes should not suffer. Its the same story most of the time. Another example, take some minister for Finance. Do you think he doesn't want the men behind the teller at ur local bank working hard? Of course, he does, esp if people liking that change can be expected to vote for him. Only any reform he may need to do to ensure that wont happen easily thanks to the vested interests -- not least of which is the babus who like to have the govt in banking and what not, thus not reducing their influence.

Its another matter that politicians do use their state of power to push the bureaucracy/executive/judiciary to do their bidding. In essence, subverting the system. But they are only the front, in my books. Often, all this only happens with give and take via the babus.

So if you ask me, politicians are no more the real problem than the vastly corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy. Clean them up and you'll automatically get a better set of politicos...

[sudzz]

Folks, the reactions on this thread thus far, barring one or two, are very akin to the the comments that sprung up on the IE website when they ran this news story a while ago. What I saw then and see now is a vexed population's hopeful admiration for a few who seemingly are out to fix a broken system. This is natural - since most of us are far removed from the workings of the system and dont believe we'll ever directly change it, we are always willing to throw our moral support behind anyone that comes along promising to do that.
As a first step, this is fine. But one has to take a bit more time and wonder whether our unqualified support does not merit a greater look-in. As in, should we not withhold our complete support till we have more of a solid ground to believe these founders of the new party are indeed for the better? I know we think it can't get any worse than now, but is that really true? Can't misguided ideologies (Pol Pot for ex) make life a whoooole lot more miserable?
Hence atleast myself, I watch carefully and hold my approval in abeyance.

Next, a word on the common refrain -- that politicians are what run the country into the ground. That they are corrupt or self-serving is not too far from the truth. But I think this does not automatically translate into them being the real scourge. I know its a simplistic connection and most people make it without a whole lot of thought or insight into the actual governmental mechanisms. How many of us ever give much thought to the actual role of the bloated bureaucracy in the Indian govt? The Humphrey Applebys and their fiefdom if you will....
I have a friend who had the chance study with a bunch of babus at Kennedy School of Govt. And got some great insight into the fact that the babus more often than not dictate and direct policy. Not that politicans dont have their say, sure they do, but usually they dont understand the ABC of the ministry they govern, and hence are completely dependent on the babu-dom. For ex, how many of you think Lalloo (or any X in his place) would really know even an iota of what it takes to run the Railways and what tweaks would go, how far, in fixing up the system?? Simply, he trusts his boys while making it clear that his votes should not suffer. Its the same story most of the time. Another example, take some minister for Finance. Do you think he doesn't want the men behind the teller at ur local bank working hard? Of course, he does, esp if people liking that change can be expected to vote for him. Only any reform he may need to do to ensure that wont happen easily thanks to the vested interests -- not least of which is the babus who like to have the govt in banking and what not, thus not reducing their influence.

Its another matter that politicians do use their state of power to push the bureaucracy/executive/judiciary to do their bidding. In essence, subverting the system. But they are only the front, in my books. Often, all this only happens with give and take via the babus.

So if you ask me, politicians are no more the real problem than the vastly corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy. Clean them up and you'll automatically get a better set of politicos...

Brilliant stuff...to know more of what this means read or see Yes Prime Minister. It is bureaucracy that holds politicians where it hurts.

Unfortunately it is these people that make maximum use of BRA-(Bhim Rao Ambedkar).

I have seen reservation from very close quarters at the peak of Mandal agitation I was in college and saw the impact on those that were out of the ambit of reservation. I have seen very very deserving candidates having to settle for second best or give up on their dreams just because there were only 20% of the seats available.

I have also seen kids who scored 45% marks and flunk their way through engineering or medicine only to be employed by the government of India.

So who every says reservation is good in any form has either not been impacted by it or has had parents that could bankroll their way to some place outside of India.

This party is not making any such pretence but even if they therefore create a clique of the higher classes I feel it is not wrong since all the others have their parties in any case (BSP, SP, RP, Dalit Panthers, etc etc) and if thats not ultra right wing then why is this??

[senthilpeter]

Because the present system will not be revamped under the present set of politicians there is nothing wrong with a new generation of poiticians with new ideas like this one you said is in the wings.  They did well in the field they took up through hard work and not taking short cuts.  Hence I am willing to invest in them and willing to give them a chance.  They can do no worse than the present crop who you know will do nothing as you said except for protecting the vote banks playing with people's emotions.

Sorry, I cannot fetishize anything just because it's new! This is why history is indeed important. It DOES teach us lessons! If we're willing to learn from them, that is!

As for caste based reservations, I do not agree that benefits have gone ONLY to the powerful few. Why? Because there is NO statistical data to back this up. It's the powerful amongst the section who have enjoyed caste-based reservation priviledges [as with the powerful section within any social group], IMHO, who however get the spotlight for their wrongdoings, and blight the chances of the rest, within the given system of reservations. Not that it means I support reservations as it is now per se. A few points here:

1. It's wrong to expect that the children of the marginalised who have enjoyed the benefits of reservation will automatically become model citizens, when we don't expect the same of the children of the historically priviledged upper castes TOO! For every son/daughter of a SC/ST/OBC IAS officer who misuse their power, HOW MANY UPPER CASTE SONS/DAUGHTERS OF IAS OFFICERS DO WE KNOW OF WHO HAVE DONE THE SAME?

to be continued... ...

When you continue can you give me who the so called UPPER CASTE people are and who fit in there.  As I see it today except for the Govt. categorising them(Low caste/Upper caste) for the sake of reservations there is nothing the UPPER caste enjoys or take advantage over the others as you claim today.  Or is it a case of you getting confused that rich and powerful are UPPER CASTE.  That's why if can give me the specifics I can show you numerous example and bring them to light that enjoy and have more power and money you feel fall under LOW CASTE.

Ramshorns, this is a bit naive. Really, if you spend any amount of time in a village, you'll clearly see that caste is/was a factor in the resources people have, in the dignity they are afforded, in the freedom of mind they possess, in the self-confidence they carry. I've seen it in my village and surely monetary discrepancy exists as do age-old practices of discrimination. So, no, upper and lower caste are not just figments of the GOI's creation.
However, I can see where you are coming from.... but ur view is clearly shaped by urban India, though even there caste is a factor in well-being, though not as apparent as in the rural parts.

Here's a concrete example: In IIT Madras, early 90s, a seriously high percentage of students was 'forward' caste. Maybe about 85%. A very very high percentage were brahmins. And then, in the Tamil student population, which is itself a reasonable chunk, about 95% - maybe more - is Brahmin. Thats right ninety-five percent. What explains this, if we think its just the Govt classifying folks. Did they base their classification so well on ability/access-to-opportunity? Hardly so, one would think...

I have heard the most common explanation for the inordinately high number of Tamil Brahmins at IITm... which is that the really high reservations in TN, leaves no option for the poor Brahmin 
Now, I wont get into the counter-arguments to this, in view of not challenging Kban, but clearly this is just a sentiment shared by the Brahmin community, without being the real causal factor for the 95% syndrome.

[ramshorns]

Senthil:It is not the question of me being naive.  It is you who do not understand how people get into IIt's or any other institute.  There is a COMMON etrance test that any one is free to attend.  So how is it  wrong that a percentage or whatever percentage you can up with that belong to a paticular community.  Again for all I care that 95% could belong to some other community as long as they did not cheat.  Looks like you are for punishing kids who are smart because thay belong to some community.  I am not.  There is the difference.

[ramshorns]

Senthil,Also read all my posts on this and the other thread before concluding.  That would help.

[ramshorns]

Folks, the reactions on this thread thus far, barring one or two, are very akin to the the comments that sprung up on the IE website when they ran this news story a while ago. What I saw then and see now is a vexed population's hopeful admiration for a few who seemingly are out to fix a broken system. This is natural - since most of us are far removed from the workings of the system and dont believe we'll ever directly change it, we are always willing to throw our moral support behind anyone that comes along promising to do that.
As a first step, this is fine. But one has to take a bit more time and wonder whether our unqualified support does not merit a greater look-in. As in, should we not withhold our complete support till we have more of a solid ground to believe these founders of the new party are indeed for the better? I know we think it can't get any worse than now, but is that really true? Can't misguided ideologies (Pol Pot for ex) make life a whoooole lot more miserable?
Hence atleast myself, I watch carefully and hold my approval in abeyance.

Next, a word on the common refrain -- that politicians are what run the country into the ground. That they are corrupt or self-serving is not too far from the truth. But I think this does not automatically translate into them being the real scourge. I know its a simplistic connection and most people make it without a whole lot of thought or insight into the actual governmental mechanisms. How many of us ever give much thought to the actual role of the bloated bureaucracy in the Indian govt? The Humphrey Applebys and their fiefdom if you will....
I have a friend who had the chance study with a bunch of babus at Kennedy School of Govt. And got some great insight into the fact that the babus more often than not dictate and direct policy. Not that politicans dont have their say, sure they do, but usually they dont understand the ABC of the ministry they govern, and hence are completely dependent on the babu-dom. For ex, how many of you think Lalloo (or any X in his place) would really know even an iota of what it takes to run the Railways and what tweaks would go, how far, in fixing up the system?? Simply, he trusts his boys while making it clear that his votes should not suffer. Its the same story most of the time. Another example, take some minister for Finance. Do you think he doesn't want the men behind the teller at ur local bank working hard? Of course, he does, esp if people liking that change can be expected to vote for him. Only any reform he may need to do to ensure that wont happen easily thanks to the vested interests -- not least of which is the babus who like to have the govt in banking and what not, thus not reducing their influence.

Its another matter that politicians do use their state of power to push the bureaucracy/executive/judiciary to do their bidding. In essence, subverting the system. But they are only the front, in my books. Often, all this only happens with give and take via the babus.

So if you ask me, politicians are no more the real problem than the vastly corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy. Clean them up and you'll automatically get a better set of politicos...

This is pretty much what I said in my previous posts.  And you called me naive for that,

[senthilpeter]

Senthil:It is not the question of me being naive.  It is you who do not understand how people get into IIt's or any other institute.  There is a COMMON etrance test that any one is free to attend.  So how is it  wrong that a percentage or whatever percentage you can up with that belong to a paticular community.  Again for all I care that 95% could belong to some other community as long as they did not cheat.  Looks like you are for punishing kids who are smart because thay belong to some community.  I am not.  There is the difference.

Listen, I'm dont believe I've said I'm for reservations or any such. Also, I'm happy that there is a common Test, everyone's eligible to take it. Of course, I ought to be given I'm from the forward caste myself. My point simply is this:

Given that intelligence is rather randomly distributed, what factors do we think cause such a high success rate for students from forward castes? Why is it that I see so many Tamil Brahmins out there than say Tamil Mudaliars? Can one explain this satisfactorily? (Also, I brought this up, if you remember, to refute your contention that upper and lower caste is only a Govt creation. I'm saying, looking at this sample space of kids getting into IIT, it does not appear that the upper/lower disctinction is as arbitrary as a Govt invention. Otherwise, I really dont want to go down this road cos this topic is a rather complex one for which much time and effort and thought are needed, and we only have one kban here  )

I think we will agree that as a nation for us to move forward smoothly and also fulfil our potential, we need all our cylinders firing - meaning all our people finally able to use all their faculties optimally. This today is not the case. If there is something we ought to do to fix this, what is it? Thats where even taking a look at caste and entrance exams and reservations comes in. I'm not even talking of correcting historical wrongs and such here, as I believe the above is a more important reason than that correction.

[senthilpeter]

This is pretty much what I said in my previous posts.  And you called me naive for that,

Okay, first off, I did not see naive as a derogatory word. Hence my opologies since it seems offensive to you.
Second, to clarify here is precisely what I termed you naive with regards to:

ramshors.....
As I see it today except for the Govt. categorising them(Low caste/Upper caste) for the sake of reservations there is nothing the UPPER caste enjoys or take advantage over the others as you claim today.  Or is it a case of you getting confused that rich and powerful are UPPER CASTE.  That's why if can give me the specifics I can show you numerous example and bring them to light that enjoy and have more power and money you feel fall under LOW CASTE.
end ramshorns....

[feverpitch]

Senthil:It is not the question of me being naive.  It is you who do not understand how people get into IIt's or any other institute.  There is a COMMON etrance test that any one is free to attend.  So how is it  wrong that a percentage or whatever percentage you can up with that belong to a paticular community.  Again for all I care that 95% could belong to some other community as long as they did not cheat.  Looks like you are for punishing kids who are smart because thay belong to some community.  I am not.  There is the difference.

1. You mean to say that Brahmin's are genetically superior to the rest?

2. What are the costs of taking the common entrance exam? The fees for the application form, the cost of the pvt tutions/FIITJEE type tutorials/the cost of schooling in institutions from where the students make it to IIT/the cost of studying in an IIT... ... ... Let alone the fact that the exams being in English already eliminate the vast majority of our populace from dreaming about it.

IMHO, without comprehensive and egalitarian primary education where the level playing field is imperative [and which is not contingent on your location in space and on how much your parents can cough up to send you to the best pvt. convent run school] and solid social support systems that encourage this education amongst the illiterate as much as the rest by discouraging child labour, we as a society can not even begin to think of a pure meritocracy!

[ramshorns]

Given that intelligence is rather randomly distributed, what factors do we think cause such a high success rate for students from forward castes? Why is it that I see so many Tamil Brahmins out there than say Tamil Mudaliars? Can one explain this satisfactorily? (Also, I brought this up, if you remember, to refute your contention that upper and lower caste is only a Govt creation. I'm saying, looking at this sample space of kids getting into IIT, it does not appear that the upper/lower disctinction is as arbitrary as a Govt invention. Otherwise, I really dont want to go down this road cos this topic is a rather complex one for which much time and effort and thought are needed, and we only have one kban here  )

I agree with you however long you debate in a vast country like India with such a high populus and varying masses any debate you have you can make a counter to it and say see I said so.  But to your other point on intelligence randomely distributed I agree there as well.  The perentage of one sect of people showing up in a majority in IITm points me probably to the upbringing and the emphasis they lay on their kids and importance of education.  This is akin to saying that Jews are controlling or a majority in the wall street.  But when will people realize and give them some credit as well wherein they are raised in a environment that shows on how you multiply your finances and be smart with it.  Again there can be a counter to this as well but I look at the difficulty at achieving the success and hence give credit for that.

[feverpitch]

The perentage of one sect of people showing up in a majority in IITm points me probably to the upbringing and the emphasis they lay on their kids and importance of education.  This is akin to saying that Jews are controlling or a majority in the wall street.  But when will people realize and give them some credit as well wherein they are raised in a environment that shows on how you multiply your finances and be smart with it.  Again there can be a counter to this as well but I look at the difficulty at achieving the success and hence give credit for that.

The sons and daughters are already enjoying the credits, by being more successful in life in quantifiable terms such as earning power and indeterminate terms such as social prestige.

[ramshorns]

1. You mean to say that Brahmin's are genetically superior to the rest?

No Sir I never said that.  Don't get smart and get me in trouble.   Seriously read my previous post and response to Senthil.

[ramshorns]

The perentage of one sect of people showing up in a majority in IITm points me probably to the upbringing and the emphasis they lay on their kids and importance of education.  This is akin to saying that Jews are controlling or a majority in the wall street.  But when will people realize and give them some credit as well wherein they are raised in a environment that shows on how you multiply your finances and be smart with it.  Again there can be a counter to this as well but I look at the difficulty at achieving the success and hence give credit for that.

The sons and daughters are already enjoying the credits, by being more successful in life in quantifiable terms such as earning power and indeterminate terms such as social prestige.

Fever:If you say that I can show you examples wherein people inherting riches have managed to wipe it all as well.  It is no gaurantee that belonging to one community can get you to where you want.  and viceversa.  You still have to work hard at it and be focused.  That is where I adore and give folks who get into IIT's through hard work.  I missed it though I put in lot of efforts.  Today I am very successful is another story but that again has to do with my working at it hard and grind given my lower middle class back ground.

[feverpitch]

1. You mean to say that Brahmin's are genetically superior to the rest?

No Sir I never said that.  Don't get smart and get me in trouble.   Seriously read my previous post and response to Senthil.

NOW I'M GONNA REPORT YOU TO THE MINORITIES COMMISSION OR WHATEVER! BEWARE! 

Seriously, rams, I agree that any serious thinking on social engineering will when extrapolated enough into the past end up in a chicken and egg problem. The point would be to change the present, and how to do it [to put a irreverent twist to the immortal words of that eternal Jew, Karl Marx ]!

My idea is, we NEED a egalitarian society, instead of a vulgar-Darwinian one! Therefore our govt. NEEDS to create TIME BOUND policies, as much for an entrepreneur like Narayana Murthy to set up his/her business [by providing them with subsidised water, electricity, land, tax breaks]; as they need to create the level playing ground where a future generation of enterpreneurs can come up from the most marginalised section in society.

[ramshorns]

Seriously, rams, I agree that any serious thinking on social engineering will when extrapolated enough into the past end up in a chicken and egg problem. The point would be to change the present, and how to do it [to put a irreverent twist to the immortal words of that eternal Jew, Karl Marx ]!

My idea is, we NEED a egalitarian society, instead of a vulgar-Darwinian one! Therefore our govt. NEEDS to create TIME BOUND policies, as much for an entrepreneur like Narayana Murthy to set up his/her business [by providing them with subsidised water, electricity, land, tax breaks]; as they need to create the level playing ground where a future generation of enterpreneurs can come up from the most marginalised section in society.

You made good points in this post and I can see some of them happening.  For example there is something called Fab City that is coming up in the outskirts of Hyd.  The AP Govt provided lands at a very subsidised prices to attract these big investors.  I am sure other Govts. across the land are doing it.  Again once they turn around and make profits I expect them to give back a little to the community where in they educate down trodden kids or set up or improve the existing hospitals.  Something like that.  Even if they get a tax break I am OK with it as long as they give back.

[feverpitch]

Seriously, rams, I agree that any serious thinking on social engineering will when extrapolated enough into the past end up in a chicken and egg problem. The point would be to change the present, and how to do it [to put a irreverent twist to the immortal words of that eternal Jew, Karl Marx ]!

My idea is, we NEED a egalitarian society, instead of a vulgar-Darwinian one! Therefore our govt. NEEDS to create TIME BOUND policies, as much for an entrepreneur like Narayana Murthy to set up his/her business [by providing them with subsidised water, electricity, land, tax breaks]; as they need to create the level playing ground where a future generation of enterpreneurs can come up from the most marginalised section in society.

You made good points in this post and I can see some of them happening.  For example there is something called Fab City that is coming up in the outskirts of Hyd.  The AP Govt provided lands at a very subsidised prices to attract these big investors.  I am sure other Govts. across the land are doing it.  Again once they turn around and make profits I expect them to give back a little to the community where in they educate down trodden kids or set up or improve the existing hospitals.  Something like that.  Even if they get a tax break I am OK with it as long as they give back.

I didnt exactly mean that. What I meant is that while we are used to corporations getting sops, and we are all up in arms defending that in the name of "free" enterprise... we're at the best grudging in our acknowledgement of the needs of the marginalised. Thus, if in a capitalist democracy, corporations acn demand and get huge sops out of taxpayers money, why not the disadvantaged. The govt at least is nominally for everyone, which is not the case of the corp. I think personally, that corporations providing money and resources for the benefit of mankind is pure hogwash! Corps are meant for profit, that is what they do best and if they are indulging in such namby pamby, they would have a more scurrilous interest than the government — and thus the trickle down effect coming from the govt is more efficient than that coming from the corp.!

[ramshorns]

To your other point of other new enterprauners coming up in India from marginalised and neglected places in a country like India is going to take time.  But to a point things are moving in the right direction and that is all you can ask for.  Sure, if you think about India and its problems they are very overwhelming.  But that does not mean we need to become disheartened.  That is where I want to see bright young men like the ones you mentioned who want to take up a challenge need to be looked at closely rather than stopping the rail in its tracks.  That is all I was getting at.  May be or may be not.  We do not know that.

[feverpitch]

To your other point of other new enterprauners coming up in India from marginalised and neglected places in a country like India is going to take time.  But to a point things are moving in the right direction and that is all you can ask for.  Sure, if you think about India and its problems they are very overwhelming.  But that does not mean we need to become disheartened.  That is where I want to see bright young men like the ones you mentioned who want to take up a challenge need to looked at closely rather than stopping the rail in its tracks.  That is all I was getting at.  May be or may be not.  We do not know that.

I've told you before, I'll say it again. I will not fetishize any one because they are new. As long as the system remains in place, the new will soon become old. Besides, if I have to fetishize the new, I may even begin to do so, but for that they have to be non-religious. Religion has no part to play in the affairs of the state -- that's my article of faith. As for cultural reawakening, what is the problem of these sons-of-brahmins in fetishizing the practises of the subalterns like say the tribals who have for ages managed to create and live in a environmentally sustainable system, instead of drawing all their ideology from scriptures written by the Indian equivalent of dead-white-males?

[ramshorns]

To your other point of other new enterprauners coming up in India from marginalised and neglected places in a country like India is going to take time.  But to a point things are moving in the right direction and that is all you can ask for.  Sure, if you think about India and its problems they are very overwhelming.  But that does not mean we need to become disheartened.  That is where I want to see bright young men like the ones you mentioned who want to take up a challenge need to looked at closely rather than stopping the rail in its tracks.  That is all I was getting at.  May be or may be not.  We do not know that.

I've told you before, I'll say it again. I will not fetishize any one because they are new. As long as the system remains in place, the new will soon become old. Besides, if I have to fetishize the new, I may even begin to do so, but for that they have to be non-religious. Religion has no part to play in the affairs of the state -- that's my article of faith. As for cultural reawakening, what is the problem of these sons-of-brahmins in fetishizing the practises of the subalterns like say the tribals who have for ages managed to create and live in a environmentally sustainable system, instead of drawing all their ideology from scriptures written by the Indian equivalent of dead-white-males?

As long as they can provide me a better alternative to the present poiticians I will give them a look in.  If as you claim they are caste and religion based then they will not last anyway.  If not I willing to give them a look in.  Only because with the present system and the way some of the people in power work it at the expense of rural India I want to see within the democratic set up what else can someone offer that can better it.  I also agree religion should play no role within the state.  But I have no problem say the ten commandments posted in court halls.  That is harmless.

I think you should not take shots at the scriptures written and followed by many centuries later.  That is not warranted.  They teach you lots of things.  Ofcourse I know through out history there were people who bent them and used for personal gains supressing others.  That is wrong.  But to question the very faith and the credentials is a bit naive IMO.  Think it over.

[feverpitch]

As long as they can provide me a better alternative to the present poiticians I will give them a look in. 

Suit yourself! Remember, it's ultimately not an egalitarian consideration on your part, but your current identity bias which is at work. Don't claim universality now!

If as you claim they are caste and religion based then they will not last anyway. 

True, Hitler's projected 1000 yrs reich lasted but little over ten years. Look at the havoc and destruction it left behind! If now you say Hitler at least achieved one of his objectives, that of leaving behind ruins that would rival those of Rome's, I'll have nothing to say!

If not I willing to give them a look in.  Only because with the present system and the way some of the people in power work it at the expense of rural India I want to see within the democratic set up what else can someone offer that can better it. 

Some offer's are better left untouched, even with a bargepole!

I also agree religion should play no role within the state.  But I have no problem say the ten commandments posted in court halls.  That is harmless.

So let's just enshrine the Hadith on the top of the Supreme Court, eh?
... ... ...
... ... ...
... ... ...
See where our own subjective complicities lie?

I think you should not take shots at the scriptures written and followed by many centuries later.  That is not warranted.  They teach you lots of things.  Ofcourse I know through out history there were people who bent them and used for personal gains supressing others.  That is wrong.  But to question the very faith and the credentials is a bit naive IMO.  Think it over.

Why not use the teachings for the betterment of your personal life, instead of pushing them down the throat of those who don't want it?

[ramshorns]

As long as they can provide me a better alternative to the present poiticians I will give them a look in. 

Suit yourself! Remember, it's ultimately not an egalitarian consideration on your part, but your current identity bias which is at work. Don't claim universality now!

If as you claim they are caste and religion based then they will not last anyway. 

True, Hitler's projected 1000 yrs reich lasted but little over ten years. Look at the havoc and destruction it left behind! If now you say Hitler at least achieved one of his objectives, that of leaving behind ruins that would rival those of Rome's, I'll have nothing to say!

If not I willing to give them a look in.  Only because with the present system and the way some of the people in power work it at the expense of rural India I want to see within the democratic set up what else can someone offer that can better it. 

Some offer's are better left untouched, even with a bargepole!

I also agree religion should play no role within the state.  But I have no problem say the ten commandments posted in court halls.  That is harmless.

So let's just enshrine the Hadith on the top of the Supreme Court, eh?
... ... ...
... ... ...
... ... ...
See where our own subjective complicities lie?

I think you should not take shots at the scriptures written and followed by many centuries later.  That is not warranted.  They teach you lots of things.  Ofcourse I know through out history there were people who bent them and used for personal gains supressing others.  That is wrong.  But to question the very faith and the credentials is a bit naive IMO.  Think it over.

Why not use the teachings for the betterment of your personal life, instead of pushing them down the throat of those who don't want it?

Fever:You are way off base comparing these intellectuals to Hitler and the Halocaust.  I repeat these folks can do no worse than the present set of politicians.  Again I never claimed anywhere I support them or I oppose them.  If they are fair enough IMO I suggested I am willing to give them a lookin.  Again you are taking shots at me personally.  I chose to not go in that path. 

Ofcourse I think everyone if they read ten commandments once every day it is good.  I believe in it.  Show me where they are harmful rather than saying who among both of us are cool or better debaters.

No one is jamming anything down anyones throat.  The scriptures teach a lot of things and they helped us sustain as a country for 7000 years of recorded history.  I think if you consider them any time in your life they will do you a world of good.  I gaurantee that.

[feverpitch]

Fever:You are way off base comparing these intellectuals to Hitler and the Halocaust.  I repeat these folks can do no worse than the present set of politicians.  Again I never claimed anywhere I support them or I oppose them.  If they are fair enough IMO I suggested I am willing to give them a lookin.  Again you are taking shots at me personally.  I chose to not go in that path. 

Ofcourse I think everyone if they read ten commandments once every day it is good.  I believe in it.  Show me where there are harmful rather than saying who among both of us are cool or better debaters.

No one is jamming anything down anyones throart.  The scriptures teach a lot of things and they helped us sustain us a country for 7000 years of recorded history.  I think if you consider them any time in your life they will do you a world of good.  I gaurantee that.

Rams, sorry if I came across differently, but I don't think I was in anyway making personal slights. All I said was that your choices are yours just as mine are, well, mine... so we should not make claims for universality based on subjective considerations.

As for counting these number-crunchers as intellectuals, I reserve my judgement. And if even in your opinion they can do no better than those already existing, why add to our woes? As I've said before, so long as the present system is in place, even Buddha would be forced to pay bribes to reach his Bodhi-tree!

As for the scriptures, I have no problem with them, or with anyone who believes in them as long as someone is not forced to follow them not out of their own choice! I say, live and let live!

Finally, the ten commandments:
1. Why the ten commandments of Christianity and not the similar stuff in all other religions as well...
You see... the problem is, every religion at its core sets some codes for living life and for governance of society. And all of them have admirable qualities. Unfortunately, a religion is not a philosophical abstract, but a living thing with its historical baggage... you detach one from the other, and it loses its potency! And NO religion is free of its own history of massacres, zealotry etc. I say, its better to leave religion out of the public sphere and in only the personal realm.
2. A question for you: Why is it that the Ten Commandments, of all religious edicts, holds you [and others like you] in thrall — to such an extent, that reflexively, that is the first example that comes to mind?