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[fineleg]

I got a bit confused reading some of the posts.
1. Can someone explain clearly, (one more time, I know we did this a while ago), the difference between SEAM bowling and SWING bowling?
2. Examples of good SWING bowlers, and examples of good SEAM bowlers.
3. I would think "Swing" is more dependent on atmospheric conditions - is that correct?
SEAM not so dependent on weather conditions, moisture etc.

[gouravk]

Seam bowling = Movement as a result of deviation due to pitching on the seam on the ball

Swing bowling = Movement as a result of difference in air pressure on heavier and lighter side of the ball, has got nothing to do with seam

Good swing bowlers: Well most people get some sort of swing but to be a paradigm of swing bowling consider Hoggard, Pathan, Rana Naved ...

Examples of seamers who generally find it hard to swing - Harmison, Zaheer, Razzaq, Ntini etc

Most bowlers are a combination of both.

In the past the great swingers were waqar, morrison, kapil

the great seamers were walsh etc.

[flute202020]

Seam bowling = Movement as a result of deviation due to pitching on the seam on the ball

Swing bowling = Movement as a result of difference in air pressure on heavier and lighter side of the ball, has got nothing to do with seam

Good swing bowlers: Well most people get some sort of swing but to be a paradigm of swing bowling consider Hoggard, Pathan, Rana Naved ...

Examples of seamers who generally find it hard to swing - Harmison, Zaheer, Razzaq, Ntini etc

Most bowlers are a combination of both.

In the past the great swingers were waqar, morrison, kapil

the great seamers were walsh etc.

Thus Spake 

This is by far the lengthiest discourse from  ..fineleg attained enlightenment today.

just kidding guys, no reflection on the opinions mentioned here.

[fineleg]

Thanks Gourav. Appreciate that.
Others can add to this topic if any other points.

[djlykan]

Swing refers to the deviation of the ball in the air. This may occur before pitching or even after. What happens is that the ball moves laterally in the air away from the initial line it should have taken, when it came out of the bowler's hand. Even after a ball has pitched and is travelling down a particular line, it may deviate because of the condition of the ball/ the position of the ball!
Seam movement refers to the change in the line of the ball that occurs once it strikes the pitch.

Swing does require factors like wind conditions/ humidity/ ball condition, to name a few, to be generated. Seamers depend more on the pitch itself, and the position/ condition of the ball.

Conventional wisdom says balls tend to swing toward the rough side, because the shinier or smoother side moves faster through the air than the rougher or duller side (Bernoulli's Theorem). Seam position, wherein the seam points toward where the bowler wants the ball to swing, is also thought to be a major factor.

A new theory called 'Contrast Swing' employed by the English fast bowlers and developed by a former NASA scientist, an Indian I believe, puts forth the theory that swing may also be achieved with the seam held vertical. It's believed to be one reason for the English bowlers to have mastered 'reverse swing', for which many methods exist.

[fineleg]

BLAST from the PAST -- OLD dg:

The SightScreen Discussion Group
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: achutank on February 17, 2006, 02:40:56 AM


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Title: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: achutank on February 17, 2006, 02:40:56 AM
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ie the seam is horizontal to the hand. and then you let loose hell in the extras dept.?


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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: sahir on February 17, 2006, 03:04:42 AM
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the ball will not swing-- sometimes you will see bowlers do it as a changeup delivery in ODIs, especially on slow pitches, because if the ball does not land on the seam, it keeps lower, making it more difficult to get away.  At other times, when there is plenty of swing available and the bowler is struggling to control it, bowling many wides, he will often hol it across the seam to negate the swing.  Not ideal, but necessary at times.  Ideally, you want someone like Pathan in those conditions who seems brilliant at controlling even big swing, putting the ball in the right areas.
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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: achutank on February 17, 2006, 03:09:05 AM
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something vrv should try?


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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: sahir on February 17, 2006, 03:10:52 AM
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Quote from: achutank on February 17, 2006, 03:09:05 AM
something vrv should try?



No-- you have to learn to control the ball and use the seam-- the seam is too big an advantage to just throw away.
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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: worma on February 17, 2006, 03:34:50 AM
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But i think even in such case the bowlers hold the ball across the seam, not horizontal in hand but in a gri such that the rough (or the shiny) side faces the batsman when they hold the ball up. Its also a ploy to roughen the ball quickly for reverse swing.


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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: achutank on February 17, 2006, 03:55:56 AM
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do you remember the ball that got gilly at sidney from pathan? that was late in the day was the ball old then? and was it a reverse swingin yorker?


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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: worma on February 17, 2006, 04:03:54 AM
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Quote from: achutank on February 17, 2006, 03:55:56 AM
do you remember the ball that got gilly at sidney from pathan? that was late in the day was the ball old then? and was it a reverse swingin yorker?

Yes I remember it...looked reverse to me, although can't remember what the commentators said.


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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: avinashgodkhindi on February 17, 2006, 05:08:53 AM
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big reverse for sure but not held cross seam. To swing, reverse or conventional , one needs to grip the ball along the seam


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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: achutank on February 17, 2006, 05:10:58 AM
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actually this is another train of thought.

that was pathan's second match i think. and he bowled that beauty.

so where is that kind of surprise in his bowling now?

and has he forgotten to reverse swing?
or is it because the pace has come odown.


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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: worma on February 17, 2006, 06:12:26 AM
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Quote from: achutank on February 17, 2006, 05:10:58 AM
actually this is another train of thought.

that was pathan's second match i think. and he bowled that beauty.

so where is that kind of surprise in his bowling now?

and has he forgotten to reverse swing?
or is it because the pace has come odown.

How can there be a surprise now! Do you see a surprise in a Warne delivery today? As compared to the 'ball of the century' delivery?

I agree, though, that he is not reversing as much...and I dont know the reasons. Probably similar to what led to him losing conventional swing last season...and maybe he's working harder on getting the first weapon right.

Btw, as compared to his Aus tour, I think he is using his traditional swing much better today...both to right handers as incoming as well as against lefties. But ofcourse, there is only so much of actual 'movement' that he can get with the ball...you can expect him to keep adding to that.


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Title: Re: what happens if you hold the ball across the seam?
Post by: gouravk on February 17, 2006, 06:24:54 AM
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In addition to the restricted movement what is worryng is the low frequency and accuracy of the yorkers.



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[ramshorns]

Swing refers to the deviation of the ball in the air. This may occur before pitching or even after. What happens is that the ball moves laterally in the air away from the initial line it should have taken, when it came out of the bowler's hand. Even after a ball has pitched and is travelling down a particular line, it may deviate because of the condition of the ball/ the position of the ball!
Seam movement refers to the change in the line of the ball that occurs once it strikes the pitch.

Swing does require factors like wind conditions/ humidity/ ball condition, to name a few, to be generated. Seamers depend more on the pitch itself, and the position/ condition of the ball.

Conventional wisdom says balls tend to swing toward the rough side, because the shinier or smoother side moves faster through the air than the rougher or duller side (Bernoulli's Theorem). Seam position, wherein the seam points toward where the bowler wants the ball to swing, is also thought to be a major factor.

A new theory called 'Contrast Swing' employed by the English fast bowlers and developed by a former NASA scientist, an Indian I believe, puts forth the theory that swing may also be achieved with the seam held vertical. It's believed to be one reason for the English bowlers to have mastered 'reverse swing', for which many methods exist.

Havent heard from you in a while. Welcome back and applause.

[fineleg]

Using Red Old ball.



Using White new ball.


The normal grip should be like this:


For Inswinger


For Outswinger


The ball should rest on the thumb & 3rd finger. In Irfan's case, the thumb & the 3rd finger are nowhere near the normal position.
old dg - courtesy Dev

[bouncer]

Seam bowling = Movement as a result of deviation due to pitching on the seam on the ball

Swing bowling = Movement as a result of difference in air pressure on heavier and lighter side of the ball, has got nothing to do with seam

What is the lighter side of a spherical ball??

[openforum]

I think its more to do with the lateral(parallel) and turbulent (perpendicular) forces on each side of the ball than the weight of the sides. As you said, the spherical ball has uniform weight distribution.

So swing depends on how you hold the ball to vary those forces. I think the details of inswing. outswing, reverse swing and contrast swing have already been posted so I'll refrain from doing that.

[senthilpeter]

Seam bowling = Movement as a result of deviation due to pitching on the seam on the ball

Swing bowling = Movement as a result of difference in air pressure on heavier and lighter side of the ball, has got nothing to do with seam

Good swing bowlers: Well most people get some sort of swing but to be a paradigm of swing bowling consider Hoggard, Pathan, Rana Naved ...

Examples of seamers who generally find it hard to swing - Harmison, Zaheer, Razzaq, Ntini etc

Most bowlers are a combination of both.

In the past the great swingers were waqar, morrison, kapil

the great seamers were walsh etc.

To add ...

other great seam cats -- Ambrose and McGrath. Lately Flintoff.
Wasim Akram, was king of seam and swing. A new one that combines both really well is Mohd.Asif.

Apparently, to be able to seam the ball at will, u have to have great control on tweaking the ball's seam as necessary with the fingers while delivering, whilst keeping a steady wrist. Very few bowlers master it. I've never read it, but it appears from emperical evidence that the hieght of a bowler seems to matter. the kings of seam bowling almost always seem to be rather tall. This is why one of the good attributes to look for in budding pacers is height.

[Sahir]

senthilpeter,
The reason height is an impotant factor with regards to seaming the ball is that the ball deviates off the seam more when it is banged into the surface, with the seam literally hitting the surface harder and then deviating.  The taller the bowler, the greater the ability to hit the deck hard.

[senthilpeter]

senthilpeter,
The reason height is an impotant factor with regards to seaming the ball is that the ball deviates off the seam more when it is banged into the surface, with the seam literally hitting the surface harder and then deviating.  The taller the bowler, the greater the ability to hit the deck hard.

great, that explains it. makes sense.. cos when the ball tends to skidd off the surface, it obviously wont deviate that much.

[inoc]

djlykan

"Conventional wisdom says balls tend to swing toward the rough side, because the shinier or smoother side moves faster through the air than the rougher or duller side (Bernoulli's Theorem)."

this is not bernoullis theorem or principle. bernoulli's principle deals with the the difference in velocity of fluids when travelling through a wide cross-section to a narrower one and vice versa. the  ball swinging towards the rough side is entirely due to the air flow characteristics of the individual side of the ball. bernoulli's thereom has nothing to do with rough and smooth surfaces. it can be brought into the discussion of swing bowling but is atleast of now superceded by the airflow characteristics around the ball.
you can refer to my post on bowling clinic for further clarification but bernoulli's theorem, plays a small part if at all in the swinging ball. glad to join in if you want to know what small part it may have in swing bowling.