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[poondu]

MS Dhoni has made it to ESPNcricinfo's India all-time XI, beating record-holding wicketkeepers Syed Kirmani and Kiran More, by virtue of his superior batting. Dhoni was picked by seven members of the 11-person jury, which was unanimous in voting Sachin Tendulkar, Sunil Gavaskar, Kapil Dev and Vinoo Mankad into the XI.

The No. 5 spot divided the jury the most, and Vijay Hazare, who played only eight innings in that position (one of them in the Adelaide Test of 1948, where he made two centuries), was preferred over the likes of Gundappa Viswanath, MAK Pataudi, Dilip Vengsarkar, Mohinder Amarnath and VVS Laxman.

The opening positions are taken by Virender Sehwag (10 votes) and Gavaskar, a blend of attack and defence, while the presence of Rahul Dravid (nine votes) and Tendulkar at Nos. 3 and 4 makes India's the only batting line-up among the eight leading countries, for which ESPNcricinfo has picked all-time XIs, to have over 42,000 Test runs between the top four.


Only one bowler from India's legendary spin quartet of the 70s makes it to the XI. Offspinner Erapalli Prasanna, with 189 wickets in 49 Tests, joins Anil Kumble (nine votes), Javagal Srinath and Kapil to form the bowling line-up. Allrounder Mankad, who took 162 wickets at 32.32 with his slow left-armers, completes the spin-dominated attack.

India's XI is the only one to feature just two fast bowlers. Australia had fast-bowling allrounder Keith Miller to back Dennis Lillee and Glenn McGrath, and South Africa had Mike Procter to help Shaun Pollock and Allan Donald.

Among the notable omissions, who did not make it to the XIs of any of the jury members, were former captain Mohammad Azharuddin; Bishan Bedi, perhaps the most highly rated of the spin quartet; and wicketkeeper Farokh Engineer.

ESPNcricinfo readers were invited to vote on the shortlists and their XI matched the jury's in all but one: Laxman was the readers' choice for No. 5 instead of Hazare.

The jury included former Test players Sanjay Manjrekar and Arun Lal, former Mumbai player and coach Vasu Paranjape, sports journalists Pradeep Magazine, Ayaz Memon, R Mohan and Suresh Menon, cricket historian Ramachandra Guha and television commentator Harsha Bhogle.

Read more about the XI here.

The XI: Sunil Gavaskar, Virender Sehwag, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, Vijay Hazare, Vinoo Mankad, Kapil Dev, MS Dhoni, Anil Kumble, Javagal Srinath, Erapalli Prasanna.

Readers' XI: Sunil Gavaskar, Virender Sehwag, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, VVS Laxman, Vinoo Mankad, Kapil Dev, MS Dhoni, Anil Kumble, Javagal Srinath, Erapalli Prasanna.

Nominees

Openers: Sunil Gavaskar, Vijay Merchant, Virender Sehwag, Navjot Sidhu.

Middle order: Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, VVS Laxman, Gundappa Viswanath, Vijay Hazare, MAK Pataudi, Mohinder Amarnath, Polly Umrigar, Sourav Ganguly, CK Nayudu, Mohammad Azharuddin, Dilip Vengsarkar.

Allrounders: Kapil Dev, Dattu Phadkar, Vinoo Mankad, Manoj Prabhakar.

Wicketkeepers: Naren Tamhane, Kiran More, Syed Kirmani, Nayan Mongia, MS Dhoni.

Fast bowlers: Javagal Srinath, Kapil Dev, Zaheer Khan, Mohammad Nissar, Amar Singh.

Spinners: Anil Kumble, Bishan Bedi, Erapalli Prasanna, Subhash Gupte, Bhagwath Chandrasekhar, Harbhajan Singh, Dilip Doshi, S Venkataraghavan, Vinoo Mankad.

http://www.cricinfo.com/india/content/current/story/476777.html

[dhruvdeepak]

great team, though i would probably have Viswanath or Amarnath at 5, and Chandra instead of Prasanna

[Blwe_torch]

It seems this Cricinfo has no other business these days.................keeps producing one All Time XI after another, every fortnight......................what nonsense!

[dhruvdeepak]

It seems this Cricinfo has no other business these days.................keeps producing one All Time XI after another, every fortnight......................what nonsense!

umm, it's part of a year-long programme to recognize the greatest performers for their respective countries. what's your beef with this now?

[poondu]

It seems this Cricinfo has no other business these days.................keeps producing one All Time XI after another, every fortnight......................what nonsense!

umm, it's part of a year-long programme to recognize the greatest performers for their respective countries. what's your beef with this now?

Ganguly is not in the team

[ramshorns]

It seems this Cricinfo has no other business these days.................keeps producing one All Time XI after another, every fortnight......................what nonsense!

umm, it's part of a year-long programme to recognize the greatest performers for their respective countries. what's your beef with this now?

Ganguly is not in the team

From that list for slots in the middle order Ganguly along with Pataudi would be the absolute last when one considers all aspects of an excellent Test batsman.  That in itself is not bad but Ganguly will not rank higher than anyone in that list barring perhaps Patuadi.

Here is the list from which they picked 3.

Middle order: Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, VVS Laxman, Gundappa Viswanath, Vijay Hazare, MAK Pataudi, Mohinder Amarnath, Polly Umrigar, Sourav Ganguly, CK Nayudu, Mohammad Azharuddin, Dilip Vengsarkar.

On another note is is good to see VVS making the XI of the readers choice which means he got a ton of votes and deservedly so though personally I would have voted for Vishy over Hazare to go along RD and SRT.  But Hazare is worthy of his place without a doubt.  Again with the likes of Vishy, Hazare, VVS and Jimmy Amarnath in the fray picking one among them is no mean task.  Some one has to be left out.

[Cernunnos]

It seems this Cricinfo has no other business these days.................keeps producing one All Time XI after another, every fortnight......................what nonsense!

umm, it's part of a year-long programme to recognize the greatest performers for their respective countries. what's your beef with this now?

Ganguly is not in the team

From that list for slots in the middle order Ganguly along with Pataudi would be the absolute last when one considers all aspects of an excellent Test batsman.  That in itself is not bad but Ganguly will not rank higher than anyone in that list barring perhaps Patuadi.

Here is the list from which they picked 3.

Middle order: Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, VVS Laxman, Gundappa Viswanath, Vijay Hazare, MAK Pataudi, Mohinder Amarnath, Polly Umrigar, Sourav Ganguly, CK Nayudu, Mohammad Azharuddin, Dilip Vengsarkar.

On another note is is good to see VVS making the XI of the readers choice which means he got a ton of votes and deservedly so though personally I would have voted for Vishy over Hazare to go along RD and SRT.  But Hazare is worthy of his place without a doubt.  Again with the likes of Vishy, Hazare, VVS and Jimmy Amarnath in the fray picking one among them is no mean task.  Some one has to be left out.

If it's a slot filling exercise, like those ill-fated World XI teams, then yes, Dada has no place. But if it's a real team building exercise (the whole is greater than the sum of parts), then I don't see him as a bad pick.

Looking at the two teams, I find it silly to have Vinoo Mankad in as an "all rounder" when you already have Kapil Dev there. Moreover he scored most of his runs as an opener, and he won't get that chance with SMG and VS.

[dextrous]

It seems this Cricinfo has no other business these days.................keeps producing one All Time XI after another, every fortnight......................what nonsense!

umm, it's part of a year-long programme to recognize the greatest performers for their respective countries. what's your beef with this now?

Ganguly is not in the team

From that list for slots in the middle order Ganguly along with Pataudi would be the absolute last when one considers all aspects of an excellent Test batsman.  That in itself is not bad but Ganguly will not rank higher than anyone in that list barring perhaps Patuadi.

Here is the list from which they picked 3.

Middle order: Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, VVS Laxman, Gundappa Viswanath, Vijay Hazare, MAK Pataudi, Mohinder Amarnath, Polly Umrigar, Sourav Ganguly, CK Nayudu, Mohammad Azharuddin, Dilip Vengsarkar.

On another note is is good to see VVS making the XI of the readers choice which means he got a ton of votes and deservedly so though personally I would have voted for Vishy over Hazare to go along RD and SRT.  But Hazare is worthy of his place without a doubt.  Again with the likes of Vishy, Hazare, VVS and Jimmy Amarnath in the fray picking one among them is no mean task.  Some one has to be left out.

If it's a slot filling exercise, like those ill-fated World XI teams, then yes, Dada has no place. But if it's a real team building exercise (the whole is greater than the sum of parts), then I don't see him as a bad pick.

Looking at the two teams, I find it silly to have Vinoo Mankad in as an "all rounder" when you already have Kapil Dev there. Moreover he scored most of his runs as an opener, and he won't get that chance with SMG and VS.

I think Ganguly's only hope would be to come in as captain.

[vincent]

I do not think Dhoni deserves the place on this list. He may be a good captain and a decent bat,but as Wicket Keeper batsman I would select Kirmani anytime.

[RicePlateReddy]

I do not think Dhoni deserves the place on this list. He may be a good captain and a decent bat,but as Wicket Keeper batsman I would select Kirmani anytime.

I was surprised to see Farrokh Engineer's name missing from the list of nominees, what with More and Mongia on it. Personally, I think it a close call between Dhoni, Kirmani, and Engineer because of what each offers.

See http://bleacherreport.com/articles/222123-a-man-forgotten-in-indian-cricketfarokh-engineer

In terms of pure wicketkeeping skills, it would be Kirmani, Engineer (only very slightly behind - because Kirmani was awesome) and Dhoni in that order. Engineer kept very well to our spin quartet (Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra and Venkat). He was also chosen as the wicket keeper for the Rest of the World XI in 1970 showing his high standing among his peers. In terms of batting (in tests), I would put Engineer ahead of Dhoni ahead of Kirmani given the quality of bowling he faced with protective gear not being what it is now. Dhoni's huge plus is of course his leadership and attitude.

[dhruvdeepak]

I do not think Dhoni deserves the place on this list. He may be a good captain and a decent bat,but as Wicket Keeper batsman I would select Kirmani anytime.

I was surprised to see Farrokh Engineer's name missing from the list of nominees, what with More and Mongia on it. Personally, I think it a close call between Dhoni, Kirmani, and Engineer because of what each offers.

See http://bleacherreport.com/articles/222123-a-man-forgotten-in-indian-cricketfarokh-engineer

In terms of pure wicketkeeping skills, it would be Kirmani, Engineer (only very slightly behind - because Kirmani was awesome) and Dhoni in that order. Engineer kept very well to our spin quartet (Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra and Venkat). He was also chosen as the wicket keeper for the Rest of the World XI in 1970 showing his high standing among his peers. In terms of batting (in tests), I would put Engineer ahead of Dhoni ahead of Kirmani given the quality of bowling he faced with protective gear not being what it is now. Dhoni's huge plus is of course his leadership and attitude.

Funnily enough both Dhoni and Farokh have played the same number of Tests.



   Mat   Inns   NO   Runs   HS   Ave   100   50   Ct   St

MSD 46   70   9   2556   148   41.90   4   18   119   20

SK    88   124   22   2759   102   27.04   2   12   160   38

FE    46   87   3   2611   121   31.08   2   16   66   16

NM   44   68   8   1442   152   24.03       1        6     99     8


is there a reason why Dhoni has a disproportionately high number of catches? more fast bowlers in the team possibly?

[RicePlateReddy]

Interesting - the stats are a little puzzling and good you dug it up.

Dhoni's catch rate is well ahead of Kirmani's pace given the number of tests or innings (caveat - the innings are innings batted in not fielded in). I think your point of more fast bowling is one of the factors, though I would have never guessed the difference would be so much.

Also, completely surprising is the fact that Dhoni's stumping rate is virtually the same as Kirmani's and ahead of Engineer's.

BTW, Dhoni is clearly a good wicketkeeper though I seem to recall more misses from him than I can recall with Kirmani. But that could be misleading when many matches with Kirmani weren't televised and didn't have as much recorded scrutiny as there is now. Kirmani had some stunning catches that are etched in the memory of most who saw him play. Kirmani's batting was underrated too, I felt. His ouster from the squad was completely uncalled for and premature. Finally, personally, I recall that he was the most humble and approachable guy in the team when he played.

[CLR James]

I would pick Kirmani. As a wicketkeeper he is not just slightly ahead, but by a good mile. Dhoni's impressive stumping/catching rate, apart from the increased number of fast bowling options in the team, can be explained by the number of matches he has played that have ended in a result. That is, by the sheer number of opportunities he has had to keep for two full innings. Compound that by the hike in the number and rate of India wins (which means the opposition had to be dismissed twice). Add to that the comparatively much less number of yawn inducing draws he has had to play out. Kirmani, especially in the dry, dusty subcontinent of the seventies and eighties, has had to keep in test matches that would end in the third innings itself, with the score reading 403 for 3, or with India slumping to innings defeat. But here was a wicketkeeper that once went for four test matches at a stretch (the 1981 England tour to India if i remember correctly) without conceding a single bye.

As for the rest of the team, I would play Vishy asking the rest of the middle order to pull straws. I would pick either Chandra or Prasanna depending on the wicket (with Prasanna gaining precedence in dry, spin unfriendly conditions) and definitely play Mohammad Nissar or Amar Singh instead of Srinath.

[WicketView]

I don't think the fast bowlers are the dominant factor ... if so, Dhoni would not have had so many stumpings. I think it is the more attacking batting that is a feature of today's tests.

[RicePlateReddy]

I would pick Kirmani. As a wicketkeeper he is not just slightly ahead, but by a good mile.

Haven't seen much of Engineer at all, and am only going by what I have read. I think he was very good too - why do you say Kirmani is ahead by a mile?

Dhoni's impressive stumping/catching rate, apart from the increased number of fast bowling options in the team, can be explained by the number of matches he has played that have ended in a result. That is, by the sheer number of opportunities he has had to keep for two full innings. Compound that by the hike in the number and rate of India wins (which means the opposition had to be dismissed twice). Add to that the comparatively much less number of yawn inducing draws he has had to play out. Kirmani, especially in the dry, dusty subcontinent of the seventies and eighties, has had to keep in test matches that would end in the third innings itself, with the score reading 403 for 3, or with India slumping to innings defeat.

Great point.

BTW, when we picked XIs on this forum a long time ago, you picked CK Nayudu for the middle order, I recollect, and we both picked Merchant.

[WicketView]

It seems this Cricinfo has no other business these days.................keeps producing one All Time XI after another, every fortnight......................what nonsense!

umm, it's part of a year-long programme to recognize the greatest performers for their respective countries. what's your beef with this now?

Ganguly is not in the team

From that list for slots in the middle order Ganguly along with Pataudi would be the absolute last when one considers all aspects of an excellent Test batsman.  That in itself is not bad but Ganguly will not rank higher than anyone in that list barring perhaps Patuadi.

Here is the list from which they picked 3.

Middle order: Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, VVS Laxman, Gundappa Viswanath, Vijay Hazare, MAK Pataudi, Mohinder Amarnath, Polly Umrigar, Sourav Ganguly, CK Nayudu, Mohammad Azharuddin, Dilip Vengsarkar.

I will disagree with you (and surely a lot more) in spite of 1987. I would have him ahead of Vengsarkar. Not that it matters, neither would make it my Indian all time XI in any case.

[blewatt]

I dont think VVS Laxman deserves a place in the all time XI. He plays well only against Australia and he is a very poor fielder.

[CLR James]

I would pick Kirmani. As a wicketkeeper he is not just slightly ahead, but by a good mile.

Haven't seen much of Engineer at all, and am only going by what I have read. I think he was very good too - why do you say Kirmani is ahead by a mile?

Dhoni's impressive stumping/catching rate, apart from the increased number of fast bowling options in the team, can be explained by the number of matches he has played that have ended in a result. That is, by the sheer number of opportunities he has had to keep for two full innings. Compound that by the hike in the number and rate of India wins (which means the opposition had to be dismissed twice). Add to that the comparatively much less number of yawn inducing draws he has had to play out. Kirmani, especially in the dry, dusty subcontinent of the seventies and eighties, has had to keep in test matches that would end in the third innings itself, with the score reading 403 for 3, or with India slumping to innings defeat.

Great point.

BTW, when we picked XIs on this forum a long time ago, you picked CK Nayudu for the middle order, I recollect, and we both picked Merchant.

Oh absolutely. I don't have anything against this team, but in mine, Merchant (fc average 72) and Nayudu would be certainties.

[ramshorns]

Ha..Ha...If the Panel were to pick the All-time Indian XI say this week I am sure VVS would have figured in the XI ahead of Hazare or even perhaps pipped RD after his back to back 4th inning epics to add to his already long list of famous match winning and match saving knocks for India.

Ofcourse he is in the XI that fans picked so that part is set.

[kban1]

I don't think the fast bowlers are the dominant factor ... if so, Dhoni would not have had so many stumpings. I think it is the more attacking batting that is a feature of today's tests.

What has one got to do with the other ?

The catch total is influenced by

a) more number of pacers that Dhoni keeps to
b) more number of completed innings (more innings when playing for a winning team)
c) keeping to Kumble, HS

The stumping total is influenced by
a) keeping to Kumble, HS
b) more number of completed innings (also more innings when playing for a winning team)

I dont see why the stumping total negates the "more pacers" behind the catches theory -- they are not mutually exclusive scenarios.

[dextrous]

Basically, if the team of yesteryears could add Kapil and Gavaskar, it could almost be India's best XI:

Sunil Gavaskar, Virender Sehwag, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, Vijay Hazare, Vinoo Mankad, Kapil Dev, MS Dhoni, Anil Kumble, Javagal Srinath, Erapalli Prasanna.

We'd be without Hazare, Mankad, and Prasanna but could replace them with Ganguly, Laxman, and Harbhajan. Mankad would be the only one whose absence would be really felt.

[WicketView]

I don't think the fast bowlers are the dominant factor ... if so, Dhoni would not have had so many stumpings. I think it is the more attacking batting that is a feature of today's tests.

What has one got to do with the other ?
...

The point is both Dhoni's stumpings and catches are high compared to previous WK. If only his catches were more in number, one could explain that by a swing towards pace from the times of Engineer and Kirmani. But the increased number of stumpings suggests that it is not the change from pace to swing which has altered shares of caught behind /stumped/bp catches; the total number of wickets falling has increased.

I suggested that this is due to the current batting style ...globally. Your suggestion that we have been trying to win more is also valid along the same lines.

[ramshorns]

Basically, if the team of yesteryears could add Kapil and Gavaskar, it could almost be India's best XI:

Sunil Gavaskar, Virender Sehwag, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, Vijay Hazare, Vinoo Mankad, Kapil Dev, MS Dhoni, Anil Kumble, Javagal Srinath, Erapalli Prasanna.

We'd be without Hazare, Mankad, and Prasanna but could replace them with Ganguly, Laxman, and Harbhajan. Mankad would be the only one whose absence would be really felt.

Yeah add Ganguly to the present team and say it is the best all-time India XI by having him replace Hazare or Mankad.   For gods sake he is no even in the all-time India XI picked by the fans.  And I do not think vast majority would pick him up from that list of middle-order bats unless ofcourse one is a Ganguly maniac. oh by the way this is what the All-time Readers XI looked like a few weeks back.

Readers' XI: Sunil Gavaskar, Virender Sehwag, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, VVS Laxman, Vinoo Mankad, Kapil Dev, MS Dhoni, Anil Kumble, Javagal Srinath, Erapalli Prasanna.

[kban1]

I don't think the fast bowlers are the dominant factor ... if so, Dhoni would not have had so many stumpings. I think it is the more attacking batting that is a feature of today's tests.

What has one got to do with the other ?
...

The point is both Dhoni's stumpings and catches are high compared to previous WK. If only his catches were more in number, one could explain that by a swing towards pace from the times of Engineer and Kirmani. But the increased number of stumpings suggests that it is not the change from pace to swing which has altered shares of caught behind /stumped/bp catches; the total number of wickets falling has increased.

I suggested that this is due to the current batting style ...globally. Your suggestion that we have been trying to win more is also valid along the same lines.

I was also implying that Dhoni kept to both Pacers and spinners which would result in higher totals for both catches and stumpings.

[dextrous]

Basically, if the team of yesteryears could add Kapil and Gavaskar, it could almost be India's best XI:

Sunil Gavaskar, Virender Sehwag, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, Vijay Hazare, Vinoo Mankad, Kapil Dev, MS Dhoni, Anil Kumble, Javagal Srinath, Erapalli Prasanna.

We'd be without Hazare, Mankad, and Prasanna but could replace them with Ganguly, Laxman, and Harbhajan. Mankad would be the only one whose absence would be really felt.

Yeah add Ganguly to the present team and say it is the best all-time India XI by having him replace Hazare or Mankad.   For gods sake he is no even in the all-time India XI picked by the fans.  And I do not think vast majority would pick him up from that list of middle-order bats unless ofcourse one is a Ganguly maniac.

Um, what are you complaining about exactly? How would Mankad play in the present day XI?