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[dextrous]

Racism? Reverse racism?


In the post-Obama world, racism may not be as simple as the old B/W distinction anymore!

This is what Landon Donovan, star US striker and himself of mixed parentage (black + white), had to say about the Malian referee in their match against Slovenia --

"I don't know how much English he speaks..."

FULL TEXT:-

From the Guardian


The team, having recovered from a two-goal half-time deficit, looked to have gone ahead four minutes from time when Maurice Edu poked home Landon Donovan's free-kick. However the Malian referee, Koman Coulibaly, spotted an infringement — although much to the frustration of the USA, he refused to explain what it was.

"I'm assuming it was a foul somewhere, it certainly wasn't offside," said Donovan, one of the players that crowded Coulibaly after the final whistle. "I just saw a normal free-kick and a goal. I don't know how much English he speaks but we asked him numerous times in a non-confrontational manner to explain his call but he just ignored us – or maybe he just didn't understand."
.....................................

The ease with which Merkins and Poms assume that their language is the normative in the natural order of things!

On the contrary, (on the basis of what is quoted here) your comment is certainly presumptuous.

The referee was terrible. I did not watch the entire match but switched to it now and then. I caught a yellow card given to a player (I dont recall which side) for "handling the ball" when it certainly did not look intentional. The disallowed goal was clearly a wrong
decision on multiple counts. Now even allowing for the fact that wrong decisions can happen etc., there should be no reason why the players cannot ask him about it in a decent manner. Ignoring that is high handed and arrogant after a terrible and harsh mistake. The point about not knowing English is giving the referee the benefit of doubt, as that would explain his ignoring the players without the arrogance etc. .

Except speaking English is not a job requirement

[feverpitch]

My point precisely...

[dhruvdeepak]

nobody asked for it to be a job requirement. they just want an explanation for how that goal came to be disallowed

[dextrous]

nobody asked for it to be a job requirement. they just want an explanation for how that goal came to be disallowed

And that isn't considered required by FIFA either. Considering the whole world plays it, communication requirements would be hard to impose. Even in cricket, umpires don't have to explain. Like cricket, bad decisions happen.

[Cernunnos]

nobody asked for it to be a job requirement. they just want an explanation for how that goal came to be disallowed

And that isn't considered required by FIFA either. Considering the whole world plays it, communication requirements would be hard to impose. Even in cricket, umpires don't have to explain. Like cricket, bad decisions happen.

Most bad decisions in cricket have a mild to moderate impact on the final result - and yet there is so much referral systems and technology used. In football a goal is the difference between victory and loss. The blooper like the one in the USA - Slovenia is simply unacceptable, when it was obvious in the replay shown just 5 secs later.

[vincent]

I agree. With so mauch technology available and used in Tennis and Cricket (though not yet in Tests) it is crazy that it is not used in Football, the biggest and richest game of all.

[dextrous]

nobody asked for it to be a job requirement. they just want an explanation for how that goal came to be disallowed

And that isn't considered required by FIFA either. Considering the whole world plays it, communication requirements would be hard to impose. Even in cricket, umpires don't have to explain. Like cricket, bad decisions happen.

Most bad decisions in cricket have a mild to moderate impact on the final result - and yet there is so much referral systems and technology used. In football a goal is the difference between victory and loss. The blooper like the one in the USA - Slovenia is simply unacceptable, when it was obvious in the replay shown just 5 secs later.

It is a choice that the sport has made and is a different matter altogether!

[WicketView]

A. I did not watch that part of the match.
B. I've seen referees give handball and fouls/penalties in an attacking position many a time when it has seemed that the action was not deliberate, rather -- often -- evasive. That's basically trying to enforce the rules strictly, where they do actually call for a degree of human interpretation. On that count, couldn't agree more.

Exactly ... would agree with you that this is the first time. But it is a mistake all the same.

C. The rule against crowding referees to show discontent about a decision is, I believe much more severe, and rightfully so. And to expect by default that a referee should know English is I am afraid American hubris at work.

Here is where I disagree. First, FIFA guidelines notwithstanding, this is common in football. Unlike cricket where staying your ground
after the umpire decides you are out gets you a penalty in terms of fines/bans, I can hardly recall an instance where the referee has given a strong (even if perfect decision) where players have not crowded him appealing for leniency. Second the crowding happened after the final whistle, so I don't think the guidelines matter as much. This is a fairly extraordinary situation that days after the decision no one really knows why that goal was disallowed. So, I think it is perfectly normal to try and ask the referee for a reason and what language will the US team try to communicate? Obviously English and gestures.

The point is not that they are saying that the referee was required to know English ... they are saying that a reason why the referee ignored them is that he could not understand what they said. I cannot read Donovan's mind, but this does not sound like hubris, rather it is giving the referee a benefit of doubt.

D. From what I've heard, the goal was clean. As I said earlier, I'd have some sympathy for any other team, but for the US -- I'm not indifferent, but rather -- happy, for reasons explained earlier. No fault of Bradley/Donovan/Dempsey.

It is entirely your prerogative to be biased and choose where your sympathies lie ... I have nothing to say there. All I point out is that your (and Dex's) interpretation of the comment and consequent accusations are far from solid.

[WicketView]

nobody asked for it to be a job requirement. they just want an explanation for how that goal came to be disallowed

And that isn't considered required by FIFA either. Considering the whole world plays it, communication requirements would be hard to impose. Even in cricket, umpires don't have to explain. Like cricket, bad decisions happen.

The arguments against introducing technology in football are similar to those presented in cricket/tennis .... it would slow the game.
And it is arguably more of a problem in football which is a fast game compared to cricket. So yes this is a choice made by the game
 and they have good reasons I believe. Not that the choice cannot be changed in future .
Most bad decisions in cricket have a mild to moderate impact on the final result - and yet there is so much referral systems and technology used. In football a goal is the difference between victory and loss. The blooper like the one in the USA - Slovenia is simply unacceptable, when it was obvious in the replay shown just 5 secs later.

It is a choice that the sport has made and is a different matter altogether!

[Cernunnos]

nobody asked for it to be a job requirement. they just want an explanation for how that goal came to be disallowed

And that isn't considered required by FIFA either. Considering the whole world plays it, communication requirements would be hard to impose. Even in cricket, umpires don't have to explain. Like cricket, bad decisions happen.

Most bad decisions in cricket have a mild to moderate impact on the final result - and yet there is so much referral systems and technology used. In football a goal is the difference between victory and loss. The blooper like the one in the USA - Slovenia is simply unacceptable, when it was obvious in the replay shown just 5 secs later.

It is a choice that the sport has made and is a different matter altogether!

I wanted to point out the magnitude of such decisions are much larger. In cricket if you ask the umpire politely, the normal practice is to give some indication of what happened. Similarly in tennis. In this case, given the severity of the decision, the refs high handedness was uncalled for. I concur with WV on this. What's the problem in saying "offside" or "foul"?

Yesterday I heard a desi tell another - "look, Denmark has misspelt their own country's name as "Danmark" on their jerseys" and the two had a hearty laugh. You see, the presumption of English speaking is not limited to the western world..

[dhruvdeepak]

i find the practice of crowding the referee and begging / threatening / yelling quite amusing. i dont think ive ever seen a ref reverse his / her decision. you are stuck with it, so what's the point? its just a stupid thing that happens in football regardless.

you are right when you say the ref reserves the right NOT to explain the decision. the discussion basically ends there...all the nonsense about english and non english speaking refs is just ppl on the thread taking the discussion down another path.

was the decision poor: yes
does the ref have to explain his decision: no
does it ever change the ref's decision if you bully the ref after he makes a call: no
is any action taken against players for crowding and bullying the ref: no


that's about it, really. it's quite a backward system that encourages venting and unnecessary rudeness

[Cernunnos]

Well, I am going by: 1. It was non-confrontational 2. They were merely asking what the reason was. If these conditions are true, I don't see any justification of the ref not giving at least a one word response. The decision is final also in cricket and tennis, yet there is a communication line between the players and umpires.

If they asked it to be overturned, then it's a completely different matter.

[dhruvdeepak]

Well, I am going by: 1. It was non-confrontational 2. They were merely asking what the reason was. If these conditions are true, I don't see any justification of the ref not giving at least a one word response. The decision is final also in cricket and tennis, yet there is a communication line between the players and umpires.

If they asked it to be overturned, then it's a completely different matter.

the difference with cricket is that you can appeal before the decision is made to potentially alter the result

[feverpitch]

now that i've seen the action, i am convinced that it was a legit goal. just as italy's penalty vs new zealand was a crime. but refereeing standards in this WC have been the best i've seen, overall. can tv replays be used -- i doubt it. it will break the flow of the game no end.

[Blwe_torch]

I agree, Italy didn't deserve a penalty!
It wasn't one...but the referee obliged them

[Cernunnos]

now that i've seen the action, i am convinced that it was a legit goal. just as italy's penalty vs new zealand was a crime. but refereeing standards in this WC have been the best i've seen, overall. can tv replays be used -- i doubt it. it will break the flow of the game no end.

Let teams have one referral each. By the time people are done seeing the silly jigs by the goal-scorers, the green/red signal can be given.

[feverpitch]

not a bad idea, except that it will open a can of worms. should referrals only be for goals, or for other movements on the pitch?

[Cernunnos]

not a bad idea, except that it will open a can of worms. should referrals only be for goals, or for other movements on the pitch?

No I don't support for other movements - only for goals. Goals are the bottomline in football. An obvious error, and I stress on obvious, is unacceptable. The UDRS system is perfect for this. Nowadays you have cameras hovering right over the players. If replays are inconclusive, then refs decision stays. Thereby a Thierry handball can get overruled, similarly the US goal would be given. If needed, put a time limit on the decision. The exact number of referrals are debatable, but I guess we can start with one each.

[dextrous]

Is there no rustic charm in old world errors?

[WicketView]

Is there no rustic charm in old world errors?

Personally,  I don't see any charm in refereeing errors. There is of course a charm in the question of whether a player manages to showcase his skill when it matters, or makes an error on the big stage. If that were the only issue, I would whole heartedly want technology. I do feel that generically technology will affect the pace and flow of the game and am therefore somewhat averse to it.
But it is interesting to consider the possibility of introducing technology for some things in a less intrusive way.

[WicketView]

Incidentally, Kaka  got an unwarranted second yellow card, possibly due to some acting. Fabiano's second goal had a generous use
of the top of his arms to trap the ball and bring it under control before scoring. Then the referee took his word that he had only chested it.

[pieterSAN]

Is there no rustic charm in old world errors?

Personally,  I don't see any charm in refereeing errors. There is of course a charm in the question of whether a player manages to showcase his skill when it matters, or makes an error on the big stage. If that were the only issue, I would whole heartedly want technology. I do feel that generically technology will affect the pace and flow of the game and am therefore somewhat averse to it.
But it is interesting to consider the possibility of introducing technology for some things in a less intrusive way.

A couple of decades ago, you might debate some decisions because they looked questionable on TV. This would be fun because most of the time you did not have conclusive evidence. Nowadays, it is easy to rip the referees for poor decisions because of the quality of TV coverage. There is some charm in not knowing for certain what happened. There is no charm in knowing one team got beeped because of poor officiating.

On another note, the whole practice of trying to keep the game flowing has led to some of the worst officiating in this tournament. I feel that the best way to fight foul play in soccer is to issue post match bans and severe fines. If they can establish this in all leagues, you would see much better behavior on the pitch. The key thing would be to enforce this without exception. This makes more sense than resorting to multiple ejections which would ruin a game.

[dhruvdeepak]

Is there no rustic charm in old world errors?

Personally,  I don't see any charm in refereeing errors. There is of course a charm in the question of whether a player manages to showcase his skill when it matters, or makes an error on the big stage. If that were the only issue, I would whole heartedly want technology. I do feel that generically technology will affect the pace and flow of the game and am therefore somewhat averse to it.
But it is interesting to consider the possibility of introducing technology for some things in a less intrusive way.

agree with you

[Blwe_torch]

7 - nil...............Portugal against North Korea!

[dextrous]

7 - nil...............Portugal against North Korea!

has the red curtain fallen?

[Blwe_torch]

7 - nil...............Portugal against North Korea!

has the red curtain fallen?

well almost...............and now gain it is 'curtains' times!

[WicketView]

7 - nil...............Portugal against North Korea!

has the red curtain fallen?

Well it was expected to fall by the end of the 1st round. They paid the price for trying to attack more taking a little of their defence,
as well as sloppy defending. Wonderful scoreline!

[WicketView]

1st group decided. No surprises in France and SAF being ousted (but was happy to see SAF beating France) but the ranking of the top teams was a little more uncertain. Group II will be decided soon and South Korea need to maintain their position with respect to Greece (a draw is fine, if Greece cannot win either) but a loss throws them out since Greece goes through with a draw while Nigeria
go through if Greece lose. The second spot is really up for grabs and will be mostly decided by the SK-Nigeria match!

[Blwe_torch]

My fav team France is expectedly out of WC................lets hope Germany doesn't let down the fans.

[pieterSAN]

Nothing more satisfying than seeing the French getting humiliated.   

[poondu]

Nothing more satisfying than seeing the French getting humiliated.   

Ditto...   

[WicketView]

Nigeria squander an unbelievable  chance (Robert Green must be feeling a lot better) to end up on a draw and South Korea gets through, as Greece ends up with a 2-0 deficit after looking like being able to hold Argentina goalless.

[dhruvdeepak]

Is there no rustic charm in old world errors?

yea nothing like a friendly pat on the back from a ref after you score a goal using your hand. twice.

[WicketView]

Is there no rustic charm in old world errors?

yea nothing like a friendly pat on the back from a ref after you score a goal using your hand. twice.

Well, even in the "gentleman's game", which certainly has a lot better behaviour,  we know what happens when the umpire takes
Ponting's word. So this was hardly unexpected when the referee was reduced to asking Fabiano whether he handled the ball.

[WicketView]

...
On another note, the whole practice of trying to keep the game flowing has led to some of the worst officiating in this tournament. I feel that the best way to fight foul play in soccer is to issue post match bans and severe fines. If they can establish this in all leagues, you would see much better behavior on the pitch. The key thing would be to enforce this without exception. This makes more sense than resorting to multiple ejections which would ruin a game.

I completely agree. In some sense, when Zidane got thrown out I thought such things would increase, and post match bans could be instituted. Perhaps many of the practices where players clearly mislead the referee (Fabiano handball, play acting leading to kaka sendoff, etc. ) can be penalized by bans greater than the actual punishment (since the playeris automatically getting to stay on pitch for this match). 

[Blwe_torch]

Koreans march on as Eagles crash

Korea Republic recovered from the loss of an early goal to draw 2-2 against Nigeria in a gripping contest at the Moses Mabhida Stadium in Durban on Tuesday. The result sees the Asians through to the Round of 16 as second-place finishers from Group B behind winners Argentina, and they will meet Group A winners Uruguay in the first stage of knockout play on 26 June in Nelson Mandela Bay. Nigeria, with just one point from their three matches, are heading for home to ponder what might have been.

The Nigerians, in dire need of a win to stay alive, dodged a bullet in only the second minute, when big Danny *tu's horrid clearance fell to the feet of Park Chu-Young in a dangerous position on the right. The Monaco man’s low cross was picked out well by the sliding Lee Chung-Yong, who sacrificed his body in a collision with Nigerian goalkeeper Vincent Enyeama only to stroke wide of the near post.

After that early scare, Nigeria began to boss the play with their best moments of these finals. Coach Lars Lagerback opted for four attacking players in his starting XI, including Nwankwo Kanu, used for the first time in South Africa. The positive approach paid off, the Super Eagles taking a lead in the 12th minute. Chidi Odiah wriggled his way up the right side with a classy piece of approach work and his low cross was nailed into the corner by Kalu Uchu, who had snuck around his marker. The goal was met with a roar from the home crowd, in need of a boost after their beloved Bafana Bafana were eliminated earlier in the day.

Nigeria continued to push forward as the half wore on, with Chinedu Ogbuke Obasi going close and Kanu and Yakubu Ayegbeni combining well in the advanced positions. The Koreans – who looked so organised in their first match – were getting pushed around and losing their shape as the half wound down. Uche nearly doubled his tally in the 36th minute, only to see his shot from distance slam off the upright to a groan from the crowd. The Asians, against the run of play, took full advantage and drew level with their first shot on goal, Lee Jung-Soo heading home while unmarked at the back post after a free-kick delivered by Ki Sung-Yueng seven minutes from the interval.

The Koreans came out in the second half looking lively. After Lee Young-Pyo tested Enyeama in the opening seconds, danger man Park Chu-Young curled his direct free-kick around the wall and inside the back post from the corner of the penalty area to put the Taeguk Warriors on top 2-1 with just minutes gone. Pockets of lively Korean fans were growing in confidence and voice, singing the anthems that propelled their men to the semi-finals as hosts in 2002, but they were nearly silenced when Yakubu was clear in on goal in the 59th minute. Only a last-ditch tackle from Cho Yong-Hyung kept the big Everton man from a certain equaliser.

'Yak' was at the heart of the action again shortly after, missing a sitter from six yards in the 66th minute, before showing the guts to step up to the spot three minutes later and draw his side level after Obasi was felled in the area. A frenzied half-hour followed, with both sides going agonisingly close to tipping the balance and substitute Obafemi Martins missing a golden breakaway chance. But it was the Korean players celebrating at the final whistle while Nigeria became the third of six African participants to fall at the first hurdle.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=249722/match=300111115/summary.html

[justforkix]

Nothing more satisfying than seeing the French getting humiliated.   

Ditto...   

England getting humiliated will be as satisfying - at least next day press would be awesoem to read 

[Blwe_torch]

Nothing more satisfying than seeing the French getting humiliated.   

Ditto...   

England getting humiliated will be as satisfying - at least next day press would be awesoem to read 

Ditto......

[WicketView]

Well, England bt Slovenia 1-0 to get through. Did not watch the match.

USA got another goal disallowed ... an offside that wasn't, and despite creating many chances kept missing at the last touch. So it seemed they would be out after a goalless 90 minutes, when they scored in injury time to top the group. It must have been heartbreak for Slovenia who learned that they would be out after they finished their match. They must have fancied themselves
when after winning against Algeria they went 2-0 up against US, but it has been downhill after that. Referee willing, they would have lost the previous game 2-3, and even though they were losing the final game too, they must have thought that they could get through as the second team.  Now England will face the winner of the group D which could be any of three teams.

It is interesting how open this world cup is till the last games in round 1, with only Brazil and Portugal being almost decided due to the 7-0 drubbing.

[WicketView]

Well, England bt Slovenia 1-0 to get through. Did not watch the match.

USA got another goal disallowed ... an offside that wasn't, and despite creating many chances kept missing at the last touch. So it seemed they would be out after a goalless 90 minutes, when they scored in injury time to top the group. It must have been heartbreak for Slovenia who learned that they would be out after they finished their match. They must have fancied themselves
when after winning against Algeria they went 2-0 up against US, but it has been downhill after that. Referee willing, they would have lost the previous game 2-3, and even though they were losing the final game too, they must have thought that they could get through as the second team.  Now England will face the winner of the group D which could be any of three teams.

It is interesting how open this world cup is till the last games in round 1, with only Brazil and Portugal being almost decided due to the 7-0 drubbing.

One thing that will be easy to miss out was the performance of the US goalkeeper, not in stopping goals but in distributing the ball to his forwards. Some of his kicks and throws were simply amazing!