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[Stumped]

I certainly dont think the Test team is declining in an alarming way. Sure, there are reasons for concern. But declining, certainly no. Dravid/GC partnership began with SL home series, which we won. Excluding the draw, the remaining two test wins were not very convincing. Ok. But what rule says a win is a win only if you win comfortably. There are many factors that might decide the eventual win convincing or not. For example, you underestimate the opposition, you make bad decisions during the match, ease off the pressure a bid, some of the players being rusty and so on. Coming to SL series, those were hard fought wins. At that time of the series, we had the SG controversy going on too. But bottomline is we won the series.
Now coming to Pakistan, first test ended in a draw. On a featherbed of a pitch, Pak posted huge score. Our bowlers were tonked all over. Nice. But what happened to their bowlers when we batted. We posted above 400 without losing a wicket, surviving the pressure of first innings score, surviving the hype of the world's fastest 'bowler'. Now coming to 2nd test, same recipe. Dhoni along with Pathan played excellent innings under pressure. So if you back and see, and see session by session, tell me how many sessions Pak won, how many India won. Your guess is as good as mine. Coming to third match, after Pathan's heroics, Akmal produced a gem of an innings that reminded me of Sachin's Manchester innings. And when its our turn, we crumbled. And more importantly, that was the deciding test. So suddenly its a 1-0. And the people back home who had been waiting for something like that to happen, pounded on like hungry wolves. All the good work in the previous tests was ignored and they spit venom over that only test. Coming to Eng, all this main players not available etc etc., I dont buy it. KP,flintoff,Harmisson,Jones(Geraint and Simon) were the architects of that historic victory. They were all playing the series except Jones. I certainly dont think Vaughan and Tresco would have had made any difference. Anyway, out of underestimation or some other factor, they drew with us. And here too,after the Mumbai loss, hungry wolves hunted in hundreds. All other factors ignored. Just people have been waiting to fulfill their interests. Who cares about the team. If you want more proof, why our Test team is not declining while there are areas for huge improvement, ask the Aussies.

[Stumped]

The above post, I posted earlier on Wicket to Wicket blog discussion. Just posted here too to see if we can debate better than those on Cricinfo

[fineleg]

All I care abt is TEST team needs improvements in some areas -
1. opening needs to be settled
2. out of form VVS, SRT
3. bowlers need to be sharp (IP in TEST is not the same as IP in ODIs though he is GOOD)

Dont care abt SG era vs RD era ( SG era is gone and done with).
Lets care abt improvements for current team.

[Stumped]

Fineleg,
1.

All I care abt is TEST team needs improvements in some areas -
1. opening needs to be settled
when was the last time you saw an Indian opening pair going through a full season. Never. Not since I started watching cricket. And keeping all the blame on GC is unfair,IMO. Stalwarts at domestic level keep on failing on the big stage. So where can we get one from. As you said, some serious work has to be done. Not exaggerating, but the best opener I saw since Gavaskar is Akash Chopra. Somehow he was busted. And certainly not the current captain/coach's fault. Is it? To build a test team, patience is the keyword from both sides, from us and from the team
2. out of form VVS, SRT
Those two positions, especially SRT's, is very hard to fill with. And I dont agree if you say SRT is out of form. Its just that, he is not having share of luck. Previously he used to make his own luck. But now, due to fatigue or something else, he is unable to break the shackles. May be the rest will do him good
3. bowlers need to be sharp (IP in TEST is not the same as IP in ODIs though he is GOOD)
Just pull out the opposition team totals under the present set of bowlers. you will see. Having said that, we need to groom the current bunch. Especially it would be very interesting to see how they do overseas
Dont care abt SG era vs RD era ( SG era is gone and done with).
This is not about SG era or Dravid era. That debate on Cricinfo, is dealing with how our test team has declined after GC took over.
Lets care abt improvements for current team.

[fineleg]

Stumped,
FYI - I like the fact RD is captain, and GC is coach. It is good for Indian cricket, IMO.
I don't think there is any specific decline...I was only pointing out areas to improve, in general.

[keep-it-cool]

stumped, there are at least 2 or 3 threads where this issue has been flogged to death already ... shall try to post the links here in some time.

But I agree generally, there is no real decline ... cause for some concern and room for improvement, yes!

[worma]

If we plot a progress cruve of our test performance in past 2-3 years...would it show sine-wave (with current status being in a trough) or would it show some kind of steady decline (yes with waves in that decline too) even if not as alarming a decline as some made it out to be???

I hope I haven't put it too technically :-)

Sharda Ugra makes some (not all) good and valid points in the same cricinfo debate. The achievements of those past 3 years (test wins in WI, Zim, Eng, Aus, Pak, SL) cannot be all swept away under a single lable of 'inconsistent flashes of individual brilliance' as some (including Prem) had argued.

Sure, there are many reasons...not all of it related to coach or captain (or strategy or tactic) and one (not only) simple reason is loss of form of key players. But is that all it is?

[achutank]

point is the batting looks ore brittle than it has been over the last 4 years. my biggest problem with this set-up is the sidelining of VVS Laxman. he is the only one in the dravid category where he understands cricket. and he does not seem to be part of the test plan. i do not understand how raina figures in gc's plan over VVS for gods sake.

i mean the best lineup in a long time played in australia

Chopra
Sehwag
SRT
Dravid
VVS
SG

comparable to
KrisS
SMG
veng
MAmrnth
Kaps

the big 3 plus VVS plus sehwag, duniya was doing tatti at the very thought of  playing us and look at the 400+ scores in that time

i don't know if the current line-up can do that

wj
sehwag
dravid
kaif
yuvi
pathan
dhoni

[keep-it-cool]

Achu, Raina does not figure over Laxman ... nor does Kaif ... Raina made way for YS in the England test series .. Laxman was still in the squad ... and there was a good probability that Laxman may have played had we gone in with 6 bats in Mumbai

[worma]

point is the batting looks ore brittle than it has been over the last 4 years. my biggest problem with this set-up is the sidelining of VVS Laxman. he is the only one in the dravid category where he understands cricket. and he does not seem to be part of the test plan. i do not understand how raina figures in gc's plan over VVS for gods sake.

i mean the best lineup in a long time played in australia

Chopra
Sehwag
SRT
Dravid
VVS
SG

comparable to
KrisS
SMG
veng
MAmrnth
Kaps

the big 3 plus VVS plus sehwag, duniya was doing tatti at the very thought of  playing us and look at the 400+ scores in that time

i don't know if the current line-up can do that

wj
sehwag
dravid
kaif
yuvi
pathan
dhoni

I didn't want to get into discussion about individuals too much. But anyway, I agree that VVS needs to be there, atleast for some more time - some more chances.

But what I don't like is that people have a 'vision' of VVS in mind...which they take for ground reality. Sure, for me too Raina is behind VVS in current test reckoning (and no-one gave Raina a chance above VVS, nor do I think anyone would anytime soon) but only just. Forget the mental image of that VVS in pristine touch.....see how he is batting today. Don't seem to be more than 60% of that old self...and doesn't look head and shoulders above Raina in current form, does he?

Ofcourse I know Raina has not been tested yet, and test cricket is the real test of technique and attitude etc..and ofcourse I know that VVS can come back into form. Those are the reasons why I would still have him a bit over Raina in current choice. But that gap is not as huge, IMO, when you look at how they shape on the crease today.

[achutank]

Achu, Raina does not figure over Laxman ... nor does Kaif ... Raina made way for YS in the England test series .. Laxman was still in the squad ... and there was a good probability that Laxman may have played had we gone in with 6 bats in Mumbai

thats my point

they are considering laxman as 6th bat?

what is this stupity.

if you start prioritizing and saying who are the best test batsmen we have, here's how it goes...

Dravid
SRT
Laxman
Sehwag

and thats it

the rest are not test players. yuvi is about 85% there, but not completely, he has no idea how to play three sessions together imo. but he can and i am waiting with bated breath to see how he hammers the ball into the pacific blue.

so if the coach has to select someone he should do it on the basis of the best people able to handle test cricket

[dhruvdeepak]

Achu, Raina does not figure over Laxman ... nor does Kaif ... Raina made way for YS in the England test series .. Laxman was still in the squad ... and there was a good probability that Laxman may have played had we gone in with 6 bats in Mumbai

thats my point

they are considering laxman as 6th bat?

what is this stupity.

if you start prioritizing and saying who are the best test batsmen we have, here's how it goes...

Dravid
SRT
Laxman
Sehwag

and thats it

the rest are not test players. yuvi is about 85% there, but not completely, he has no idea how to play three sessions together imo. but he can and i am waiting with bated breath to see how he hammers the ball into the pacific blue.

so if the coach has to select someone he should do it on the basis of the best people able to handle test cricket

I agree with you. But some questions:
Who opens with Sehwag?
How do you NOT play Yuvraj? It is IMPERATIVE that he plays. I dont care what percentage of a complete player he is, right now he is white hot, and there is nowhere for him to prove himself except in Test matches.

[OldPal]

True DD

I would put my priority List as
RD
YS
SR(My obeservation on him puts him ahead of other folks and trust me he would stay in TESTS if given Chance- Reminds me YS ).
....
....
....
Not sure  of other batsman if they have done anything special to get nod over other.

[keep-it-cool]

achu,

i do think YS on current form deserves to be in the side ...plus you need an opener in the side as well (RD cant open) ... now VVS v/s SRT, i am willing to consider (purely on the basis of current form ... otherwise obviously SRT is way ahead)

[achutank]

kic, dd, pt

obviously i am not suggesting that we field a 8 memebr team in test. 

what i have put there is my reckoning of "TEST BATSMEN" as is the general acceptance of what it takes to do well in tests.

my argument was you guys are not considering laxman right there in the same bracket as dravid but instead dropping him to the next bracket to fight for a place in the side with kaif and raina. i do think vvs has done better in the last three series than you give credit to him. and look at how sporadicly he plays nowadays one test then he is out ofinternational cricket for the next three months. cmon how are wegoing to get this guy in shape and in form if we do this.

the whole problem is the number of odis we play. its too many. either kill test cricket completely or bring about a better balance than this. also the best idea would be to take 5 people more in the team at the board's expense so that we have a second team strenght and that way ensure that people like VVS always keep getting the best coaching and training plus a couple of the incosequential matches. not being in the environemnt of international cricket itself brings the form down imo.

biggest case in point - KAIF!

[keep-it-cool]

very valid points achu .. although i would differ on classifying lax in the same bracket as RD, the Kaif example is bang on ..

[ramshorns]

kic, dd, pt

obviously i am not suggesting that we field a 8 memebr team in test. 

what i have put there is my reckoning of "TEST BATSMEN" as is the general acceptance of what it takes to do well in tests.

my argument was you guys are not considering laxman right there in the same bracket as dravid but instead dropping him to the next bracket to fight for a place in the side with kaif and raina. i do think vvs has done better in the last three series than you give credit to him. and look at how sporadicly he plays nowadays one test then he is out ofinternational cricket for the next three months. cmon how are wegoing to get this guy in shape and in form if we do this.

the whole problem is the number of odis we play. its too many. either kill test cricket completely or bring about a better balance than this. also the best idea would be to take 5 people more in the team at the board's expense so that we have a second team strenght and that way ensure that people like VVS always keep getting the best coaching and training plus a couple of the incosequential matches. not being in the environemnt of international cricket itself brings the form down imo.

biggest case in point - KAIF!

Achu, You need to understand VVS is not in scheme of things that RD will make you believe otherwise.  That particular comment of RD when I think now makes him sound like a phoney.  Talking of double standards they accused SG of definitely exists here as well, as you can see RD go out of the way to defend Kaif despite his mediocrity and carry him in the team.  To a lesser extent Sehwag as well.  Is it so inconcieveable that they could have sat down Kaif for a series.  There is something there which does not meet the eye specifically trying to keep guys out that GC does not think highly of.  And VVS is one such guy.  Sad but true.

[ramshorns]

very valid points achu .. although i would differ on classifying lax in the same bracket as RD, the Kaif example is bang on ..

Where would you classify Lax??

[yorker]

kic, dd, pt

obviously i am not suggesting that we field a 8 memebr team in test. 

what i have put there is my reckoning of "TEST BATSMEN" as is the general acceptance of what it takes to do well in tests.

my argument was you guys are not considering laxman right there in the same bracket as dravid but instead dropping him to the next bracket to fight for a place in the side with kaif and raina. i do think vvs has done better in the last three series than you give credit to him. and look at how sporadicly he plays nowadays one test then he is out ofinternational cricket for the next three months. cmon how are wegoing to get this guy in shape and in form if we do this.

the whole problem is the number of odis we play. its too many. either kill test cricket completely or bring about a better balance than this. also the best idea would be to take 5 people more in the team at the board's expense so that we have a second team strenght and that way ensure that people like VVS always keep getting the best coaching and training plus a couple of the incosequential matches. not being in the environemnt of international cricket itself brings the form down imo.

biggest case in point - KAIF!

Agree with you 100%. Every one is saying VVS is out of form. May be he is not playing all the strokes he used to play and with the same majesty. But if you see the runs he has scored under GC, I would definitely not say he is out of form.

A century in Zim
One Fifty and One hundred against SL in two tests. (The century he scored in Motera saved our batting. Remember the top order just failed.
90 against Pak. Before showing me his scores in Karachi tests, just try to recollect the balls he got out to. Those two are gems and would have place in classics of fast bowling.
And then he got out for 0 on First ball against England in Nagpur. But any batsman may have that bad day.

Looking these scores and considering that he did this with out being in his best touch, explains how good a Test Batsman he is.

What people miss out is they look at some One-day scores of other batsman and think they should be given chance ahead of VVS, but forget that had VVS been part of ODIs he might have made more runs now that RD is opening and VVS would have got his favourite number 3.

By the way applaud is on its way Achutank.

[ramshorns]

kic, dd, pt

obviously i am not suggesting that we field a 8 memebr team in test. 

what i have put there is my reckoning of "TEST BATSMEN" as is the general acceptance of what it takes to do well in tests.

my argument was you guys are not considering laxman right there in the same bracket as dravid but instead dropping him to the next bracket to fight for a place in the side with kaif and raina. i do think vvs has done better in the last three series than you give credit to him. and look at how sporadicly he plays nowadays one test then he is out ofinternational cricket for the next three months. cmon how are wegoing to get this guy in shape and in form if we do this.

the whole problem is the number of odis we play. its too many. either kill test cricket completely or bring about a better balance than this. also the best idea would be to take 5 people more in the team at the board's expense so that we have a second team strenght and that way ensure that people like VVS always keep getting the best coaching and training plus a couple of the incosequential matches. not being in the environemnt of international cricket itself brings the form down imo.

biggest case in point - KAIF!

Agree with you 100%. Every one is saying VVS is out of form. May be he is not playing all the strokes he used to play and with the same majesty. But if you see the runs he has scored under GC, I would definitely not say he is out of form.

A century in Zim
One Fifty and One hundred against SL in two tests. (The century he scored in Motera saved our batting. Remember the top order just failed.
90 against Pak. Before showing me his scores in Karachi tests, just try to recollect the balls he got out to. Those two are gems and would have place in classics of fast bowling.
And then he got out for 0 on First ball against England in Nagpur. But any batsman may have that bad day.

Looking these scores and considering that he did this with out being in his best touch, explains how good a Test Batsman he is.

What people miss out is they look at some One-day scores of other batsman and think they should be given chance ahead of VVS, but forget that had VVS been part of ODIs he might have made more runs now that RD is opening and VVS would have got his favourite number 3.

By the way applaud is on its way Achutank.

Applause to you as well Yorker for that balanced analysis.

[Stumped]

Based on your posts, I think majority of us agree on one thing. There are causes for concern in the Test team. Thats true. Now lets see from RD/GC's eyes (if at all, we can see).
As cricket followers, we know what it takes to build a formidable Test team. As I said, patience is the keyword. We have opening problems, SRT/VVS indifferent run etc. If you were RD or GC do you really put extra effort now into building a Test team now, just a few months away from WC. If we do that, then the planning for WC might take a back seat. Is it really necessary now? Its not like we are losing the tests right and left. Lets go back to history now, to see how WC cup wins helped certain teams to raise their games significantly and helped them to achieve Test crowns. I always used to believe that WI were such a force in the later 70's through 80's, because of their two extraordinary WC wins. They won them very convincingly. That helped them feel like "We are the Champions" and we clearly saw that in their play. Thats why I thought after our WC win in 1983, we would go further to dominate the cricket world. I was proved wrong. WI took a sweet revenge just after the event. But still we were a force until the World series win. It helped us to create fear in the opposition for two years, no matter what. But the reasons why we couldnt translate that into a long period, many reasons, first and foremost, even though we won the WC, we certainly didnt give the impression to the world and WI, that we are better than WI. Secondly, the constant back stabbing episodes of SMG and KD didnt help the matters either. Now coming to Australia, look at what their World Cup wins did to them. They went to become Test Champions as well but it took them 10 years to ascertain their superiority at the Test level. Now look at Pakistan, its the same, Akram and Younis along with others didnt help Pak to stabilise on their WC win. Coming to SL, they were a force for two years. In both ODI and Test cricket. But what made them lose that aura is their board stupidity or lack of courage. They never scheduled overseas tours regularly. They always got stuck at home. So when the time came, they were simply crushed. The likes of Jayasuriya created terrors in the cricket arena, both at Test and ODI level, just because of the part they played in WC. Cricket is all about confidence. Now look at Ponting. Dont you think the WC Final century boosted his confidence level so much, that he hit a envious purple patch? That century might have given him confidence that he can play against the world's best and he can play Harbhajan Singh.
Dont u think the WC wins somehow helped Aus to be number one at both Test and ODI level for a long time? I, for one, think so.
When I think of that, I get satisfied by the approach being taken by RD and GC. We literally crushed SL,Pak and Eng. They will remember that for a long time. And that will definitely help us in the near future. Imagine we did this to WI and SA too, then the only teams remaining will be Aus and NZ. God willing if we win the WC, none of the teams can say, its a flash in the pan as they said after '83. The world will recognise our superiority before the WC'07 win. THAT WILL IMMENSELY help us to work on our test team. For now, I think, as we are not losing at an alarming way, the way Test team is working, its fine. It doesnt mean neglect that. God forbid, a crushing loss in the ATC before WC, will spoil all our ODI success over the year, for instance. So instead of doing major changes to the Test team, its better work better with what we have. Back to Future,"And we can implement the same strategies to the Test team that helped us win the WC'07"

[keep-it-cool]

very valid points achu .. although i would differ on classifying lax in the same bracket as RD, the Kaif example is bang on ..

Where would you classify Lax??

At the moment, Rams, I would classify him at least a couple of notches below RD. At his peak, VVSL can be ranked alongside anyone you want ... but unfortunately he's been much more inconsistent in recent times.

The other point that is critical, in my view, with a player like Laxman (and this applies to an SRT or SG too) is that you really cannot carry more than one such player in the team till they get back into form - coz if they take around a year to do so, there is not much in terms of time that they will have to offer to the team beyond then. At this stage in their careers (with maybe 2 years or so of cricket left), I would want these guys to be some kind of cash cows .. i.e. reliable bets who score very consistently and allow younger players such as YS, MK, VS to get used to the test arena and grow as players. With them you can afford to give a longer rope, coz they still have a long playing life ahead of them (potentially)

Now if just VVSL were out of touch and SRT was playing like a dream, then one still can put him in the top 5. However, if both of them are struggling, we need to make a choice - especially if we are playing only 5 batsmen. Now whether VVSL or SRT is anyone's call - to me, SRT still inches out VVS by a bit at the moment. If we are playing 6 bats, then as I posted earlier, VVSL would be in my team ahead of a Kaif.

Or, if VVSL is comfortable opening, I have no issues in getting him in place of a WJ or a VS or make a choice between VS and YS (depending on who is in better form), but in the middle order, I would put him 4th in the pecking order on current form.

[ramshorns]

very valid points achu .. although i would differ on classifying lax in the same bracket as RD, the Kaif example is bang on ..

Where would you classify Lax??

At the moment, Rams, I would classify him at least a couple of notches below RD. At his peak, VVSL can be ranked alongside anyone you want ... but unfortunately he's been much more inconsistent in recent times.

The other point that is critical, in my view, with a player like Laxman (and this applies to an SRT or SG too) is that you really cannot carry more than one such player in the team till they get back into form - coz if they take around a year to do so, there is not much in terms of time that they will have to offer to the team beyond then. At this stage in their careers (with maybe 2 years or so of cricket left), I would want these guys to be some kind of cash cows .. i.e. reliable bets who score very consistently and allow younger players such as YS, MK, VS to get used to the test arena and grow as players. With them you can afford to give a longer rope, coz they still have a long playing life ahead of them (potentially)

Now if just VVSL were out of touch and SRT was playing like a dream, then one still can put him in the top 5. However, if both of them are struggling, we need to make a choice - especially if we are playing only 5 batsmen. Now whether VVSL or SRT is anyone's call - to me, SRT still inches out VVS by a bit at the moment. If we are playing 6 bats, then as I posted earlier, VVSL would be in my team ahead of a Kaif.

Or, if VVSL is comfortable opening, I have no issues in getting him in place of a WJ or a VS or make a choice between VS and YS (depending on who is in better form), but in the middle order, I would put him 4th in the pecking order on current form.

To me in tests the only batsman I would take over Laxman is Dravid.  He is not out of form as few suggest here.  He was during the Aussie series in India and shortly there after.  Recently his scores of 100 against Zim(Won't count for  much but still a good knock), 69, 104 against SL and 90 against Pak suggest that he is in OK form.  Then add to that the string of good scores in the challengers facing all the current Indian bowlers, only Venu outplayed him runs wise(rolls royce to chevy difference, style wise and quality wise between the two).   So I think Lax is No.2 in my books for the middle order spot.  We agree on some points but also I have different takes on others.

[keep-it-cool]

Rams, very valid points ... and actually even the conclusion that we are driving at is not too different ...
- if India plays 6 batsmen, VVS would be in the team - be it yours or mine
- if India plays 5 batsmen (we both agree RD is an automatic choice)
  a) VVS is comfortable opening - he is competing for 4 places - I would pick him; u would too
  b) Only Middle Order - he is competing for 2 places - on current form, YS, SRT, VVSL is my preferred order, with SRT pipping VVSL just by a very small bit. I suspect yours would be VVSL, SRT, YS

I am actually surprised YS is such a contentious case - after having scored two centuries on difficult pitches (when everyone else collapsed around him) and being very consistent. Remember, even in the Mumbai 2nd innings, he was the 9th man out!! I agree his may not the finished article yet, but we will never know that unless we do not play him in all conditions and what better time than now - when we tour WI and SA in succession? And apart from RD, he is probably the only batsman who is in very good touch at the moment!!

[ramshorns]

Rams, very valid points ... and actually even the conclusion that we are driving at is not too different ...
- if India plays 6 batsmen, VVS would be in the team - be it yours or mine
- if India plays 5 batsmen (we both agree RD is an automatic choice)
  a) VVS is comfortable opening - he is competing for 4 places - I would pick him; u would too
  b) Only Middle Order - he is competing for 2 places - on current form, YS, SRT, VVSL is my preferred order, with SRT pipping VVSL just by a very small bit. I suspect yours would be VVSL, SRT, YS

I am actually surprised YS is such a contentious case - after having scored two centuries on difficult pitches (when everyone else collapsed around him) and being very consistent. Remember, even in the Mumbai 2nd innings, he was the 9th man out!! I agree his may not the finished article yet, but we will never know that unless we do not play him in all conditions and what better time than now - when we tour WI and SA in succession? And apart from RD, he is probably the only batsman who is in very good touch at the moment!!

K-I-C, The Karachi century that Yuvraj scored won't count for much only because after SG was out in that 2nd innings the game was as good as over and we had no chance to save it and after that no pressure situation.  Much like the 100 VVS scored in Sydney in Aus'99.  So if  you keep that out the 90 VVS scored and his patnership with Dravid pulled us out of the ropes when we chasing a very big total in the 2nd test.  Even Dravid acknowledged the fact.  And again the 100 vs SL was in a winning cause as well.  Sure in the same period Yuvraj played few good knocks as well but VVS is no pushover head to head.  Hence given the past history I would still go with VVS over Yuvraj presently in test matches.

[keep-it-cool]

Rams, very valid points ... and actually even the conclusion that we are driving at is not too different ...
- if India plays 6 batsmen, VVS would be in the team - be it yours or mine
- if India plays 5 batsmen (we both agree RD is an automatic choice)
  a) VVS is comfortable opening - he is competing for 4 places - I would pick him; u would too
  b) Only Middle Order - he is competing for 2 places - on current form, YS, SRT, VVSL is my preferred order, with SRT pipping VVSL just by a very small bit. I suspect yours would be VVSL, SRT, YS

I am actually surprised YS is such a contentious case - after having scored two centuries on difficult pitches (when everyone else collapsed around him) and being very consistent. Remember, even in the Mumbai 2nd innings, he was the 9th man out!! I agree his may not the finished article yet, but we will never know that unless we do not play him in all conditions and what better time than now - when we tour WI and SA in succession? And apart from RD, he is probably the only batsman who is in very good touch at the moment!!

K-I-C, The Karachi century that Yuvraj scored won't count for much only because after SG was out in that 2nd innings the game was as good as over and we had no chance to save it and after that no pressure situation.  Much like the 100 VVS scored in Sydney in Aus'99.  So if  you keep that out the 90 VVS scored and his patnership with Dravid pulled us out of the ropes when we chasing a very big total in the 2nd test.  Even Dravid acknowledged the fact.  And again the 100 vs SL was in a winning cause as well.  Sure in the same period Yuvraj played few good knocks as well but VVS is no pushover head to head.  Hence given the past history I would still go with VVS over Yuvraj presently in test matches.

Rams, c'mon now, why penalise a guy because everyone else around him got out?? Aren't we trying to judge ability and form here? How will it become easier to play in certain conditions if others get out? Yeah, I agree the pressure goes off, but you still have to play. And it is not as if YS scored all his runs after SG got out - he was scoring before as well!! And if you want to ignore Karachi, then one can even get in things like the second test was played on a featherbed - so VVSL's knock should not be rated.

Plus, haven't we seen YS' other century at Lahore - when Umar Gul had the entire Indian batting line up for breakfast ... those were equally (if not more) tough conditions and this was in the first innings!

I am not saying VVSL is a push over. All I am saying is that YS is in the form of his life; VVSL and SRT are not ... if you dont play YS now, you never will. And so far, he has done more than enough to earn that spot. VVS and SRT, on the other hand, have seen a come down in form - both do not look in the same touch as they were at their peak ... and we just cannot afford two such batsmen in the side right now (if we are playing only 5 batsmen). Here, I've already mentioned, SRT (to my mind) just inches out VVS for that 5th spot.

[ramshorns]

K-I-C:Let us agree to diagree on that one.  For me it is VVS over YS in tests and for you it is the other way around.  We made our points and they are there for all to see.

[Stumped]

 
Somehow this debate ended up in VVS vs YS debate.
Can we have some more arguments regarding the test decline if there is any?

[squarecut]

Let YS score consistently in tests on  Eng/SA/Aus pitches till then VVSL is better than YS in tests.

[Sahir]

Speaking of VVS, one concern of mine is that he has not played any cricket for quite a while now.  It would have been a good idea to send him for the Eurasia Cup in Abu Dhabi, killing two birds with one stone, getting him some much needed time in the middle prior to the West Indies tour and also getting a chance to observe him in limited-overs cricket.  As it stands, it looks as if he will go to the WI not having played any cricket for 3 months.

[Sahir]

Somehow this debate ended up in VVS vs YS debate.
Can we have some more arguments regarding the test decline if there is any?

sorry, did not see your post before I made my last post on VVS.

[ramshorns]

Speaking of VVS, one concern of mine is that he has not played any cricket for quite a while now.  It would have been a good idea to send him for the Eurasia Cup in Abu Dhabi, killing two birds with one stone, getting him some much needed time in the middle prior to the West Indies tour and also getting a chance to observe him in limited-overs cricket.  As it stands, it looks as if he will go to the WI not having played any cricket for 3 months.

Sahir, That is one if the reasons why I am disappointed with RD.  He claims he knows Laxman like no one because they were playing together from U-19 level.  Then he says Laxman is in scheme of the things.  Then we clinch the series against Eng. in 4.  We have out of form players.  It would have been perfect like you said to give him a try and have some practice as well - 2 in one.  I do not know what GC/RD have in store for Laxman.  For the record his last first class inning was in Karachi test not counting the first ball duck against his only appearence in Eng test.  It makes no sense to treat a proven performer this way. 

[ramshorns]

Let YS score consistently in tests on  Eng/SA/Aus pitches till then VVSL is better than YS in tests.

SQCUT:Agree with that.

[ramshorns]

Somehow this debate ended up in VVS vs YS debate.
Can we have some more arguments regarding the test decline if there is any?

Stumped:I see your point, but VVS and YS are very much a reason one way or the other for the decline and merit a debate.

[fineleg]

Speaking of VVS, one concern of mine is that he has not played any cricket for quite a while now.  It would have been a good idea to send him for the Eurasia Cup in Abu Dhabi, killing two birds with one stone, getting him some much needed time in the middle prior to the West Indies tour and also getting a chance to observe him in limited-overs cricket.  As it stands, it looks as if he will go to the WI not having played any cricket for 3 months.

It is extremely important to give VVS time in the middle.

Stumped - VVS is a very important part of TEST team, and if he is not in full swing, then we WILL have issues and continue to have issues with TEST squad.

I agree Sahir - India-A shud have had VVS, or atleast for these 2 one-off matches in abu dhabi. Going without any Match practice after the Karachi match straight into the warmup and FIRST TEST at WI is foolish by Bcci and RD/GC. Then NO POINT in crying VVS failed in TEST1 and TEST2 and cry and cry! Hey, give him some time in the middle to get his touch, feet moving, match fitness, and then put him in TEST 1 and TEST 2 etc. If he still fails, we can atleast cry abt it, otherwise it is being stupid to expect him to jump from his home and start scoring centuries in TEST cricket in away conditions especially!!!

PS: His own regimen of exercise and warmup matches only count for so much - you shud put him in real Match situations like India-A atleast.

[Stumped]

I do agree VVS is a very important member in our Test squad. And funnily, we always hear he is not in form but the scores doesnt suggest that. They offer entirely different story. Funnily enough, the story of VVS goes in parallel with the whole Test team. VVS has been in the runs but those who have been watching would know, not at all convincing. That doesnt mean those are not runs and those are not helpful. The same way with our team as a whole. Its winning but not as we would have liked it or let me put it this way, not the media would have liked it. IMHO, certain sections of the media is blowing up this issue, which might be present but not at present something we need to pay immediate attention.

[Cover Point]

I think its time to coin a new term "Laxmanian". Ramji would qualify in the club.

We would ofcourse very quickly retire the term for the sake of being "nice" and replace it with Laxmanix. Still only one member of the club!!!

Ramji, you gotta be kidding me! Today's Lakhan is no where close to YS in tests. Over the past 6-8 months YS has pipped everyone except for RD in both forms of the game.

Lets just take some stats.

Laxman in tests over the last few months

From December, playing predominantly at home or on featherbeds in pak he averages 36.

Yuvraj Singh having played FOUR fewer innings averages 43

To top it off Yuvraj is younger, a MUCH MUCH MUCH better fielder and also bowls a bit!

Is there a comparison?

No my friend, YS has moved up the pecking order and in our middle order sits right behind RD.

So Unless Lakhan wants to play as opener (hey how about Ganguly and Lakhan opening ) his position in the Indian team is as a 6th batsman at best!

Here is the pecking order

Opener
Sehwag
RD
Sachin
YS
Lakhan

Even here he is going to be getting heat from the Raina's of the world not to mention a certain former captain who wants to get back in the team too!

Harsh? yes it is ...But Lakhan is old now. He is unfit. His days are numbered. He better perform at his best in WI.

[toney]

Even here he is going to be getting heat from a certain former captain who wants to get back in the team too!

You mean Azhar? I thought he had a life ban.

[ramshorns]

Harsh? yes it is ...But Lakhan is old now. He is unfit. His days are numbered. He better perform at his best in WI.

Sorry, I think Laxman better perform in WI holds good to RD/SRT/YS and everyone aspiring for TEAM INDIA.  Why only Laxman?? As for your claim he is unfit he is no worse than what he was before.  Sure he is ageing.  So is RD and SRT.  I think as long as VVS can score he should be in ahead of YS in tests.  He has not showed that he has totally slowed down scoring wise.

[Cover Point]

Sorry, I think Laxman better perform in WI holds good to RD/SRT/YS and everyone aspiring for TEAM INDIA.  Why only Laxman?? As for your claim he is unfit he is no worse than what he was before.  Sure he is ageing.  So is RD and SRT.  I think as long as VVS can score he should be in ahead of YS in tests.  He has not showed that he has totally slowed down scoring wise.


[/quote]

It sure holds good for RD/YS ... but since they have been doing so well recently they may actually get a longer rope (Specially RD isnt going to be dropped even if he has 6 DUCKS in 3 tests). Lakhan needs to do much better than he has been doing.

SRT is a tricky case. Has been our "bradman" but has been slumping for a bit now. How much of a rope he would/should get I cant say.

Though my point was that Lakhan is at #6 today in our scheme of things. Any youngster performing well (or Ganguly for that matter) puts pressure on him now (it used to be YS).

Assuming there is a NEW Tendulkar who comes in, the first to make way would be Lakhan since he is lowest in the pecking order (ignore the openers since he doesnt want to play there).

Thats what I was getting at