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[Blwe_torch]

y not? if u are willing to discredit him for the fall from a "record breaking, unprecedented" brownwash of Zim, y not give him credit for the "slight climb"?

ok!..give it if you may!
i believe, GC was n't in grip of the team with SG around.
He came to grips with the team, after SG was ousted.
Losing a home test(not winning the series) against this England is real bad!
It was like, back to the worst during SG/JW regime....that is home series against Pak.

[keep-it-cool]

y not? if u are willing to discredit him for the fall from a "record breaking, unprecedented" brownwash of Zim, y not give him credit for the "slight climb"?

ok!..give it if you may!
i believe, GC was n't in grip of the team with SG around.
He came to grips with the team, after SG was ousted.
Losing a home test against this England is real bad!

I am not giving any credit ... I do not think there is any credit there to be given to anyone!!! I mean look at the Aussies - if they beat Bang 3-0 in the ODIs, their rating points remain unchanged ... this is how I view the Zim series... beating them was no big deal

[Blwe_torch]

y not? if u are willing to discredit him for the fall from a "record breaking, unprecedented" brownwash of Zim, y not give him credit for the "slight climb"?

ok!..give it if you may!
i believe, GC was n't in grip of the team with SG around.
He came to grips with the team, after SG was ousted.
Losing a home test against this England is real bad!

I am not giving any credit ... I do not think there is any credit there to be given to anyone!!! I mean look at the Aussies - if they beat Bang 3-0 in the ODIs, their rating points remain unchanged ... this is how I view the Zim series... beating them was no big deal

for Aussies, beating Bangladesh may not be a big deal....but for India, beating Zimbabwe in Zimbabwe is not a small deal. We hardly have much to show, anyway. so what, if Zim were under par!
I wish, we can be dealt like people ( ICC) deal with the Aussies nowadays!

[keep-it-cool]

Oh, so Zim being under par is fine - it was still a great win for us, but losing to an under par Eng (which is still miles ahead of Zim) is bad??

[Blwe_torch]

any win is fine for India...any loss is bad!
India has less wins and more losses, so we have a lot to make up ..you see!

[achutank]

 i think the zimbabwe series was a loosner where GC would seen a first hand view of how we do what we do in tests. i don't think he had any definite ideas till then in specific terms about areas of our test cricket. all the natural failings were there in zimbabwe also actually eve if we did win - the lack of application, discipline, fitness, temperament, technique in all departments of the game - we had the runouts, dropped catches, long periods of mediocre bowling, and batsment getting out to innocous stuff.

but post that if we see the improvement in ODIs does not have a significant counterpart in tests.

it only shows we have players who can bat not more than 15 overs at a time and bowl 6-7 overs at a time. they do not know what to do once they are sorted and there are no restrictions like ODIs.

its like players  who are champions in building cricket, but you take them to the maidan and play the same tennins ball cricket they perform below par. because you have catchers in the maidans where there are sixers in the buildings eg.) ball hits the second floor parapet - 6. same shot in the maidan, ball comes down but fielder has run and positioned himself for the catch.

my point has been so far in the last month or so that GC does not have a real plan for tests, because if he had it would have shown. somewhere he knows that except for Dravid, Kumble, Bhajji there are really no great test players in this side. even yuvi has one more season of consistent evolving to be called a upcoming great test player.

[keep-it-cool]

achu, this is a very good post .. it puts things in perspective.

I admire what GC has done with the Indian cricket team, especially in the ODIs. But I am also the first one to admit that we have not achieved any significant success in tests. Yes, we have won against Zim (not worth talking about, in my view), defeated SL (a good win, coz both teams were playing in conditions that suited them), lost to Pak (a bad result) and drew against England (disappointing as it was not the strongest Eng team). Clearly, a lot needs to be done still.

But then, why are we so surprised? Do we all not keep saying that Test cricket is the real thing, it is the more difficult version of the game? And if yes, then is it not natural to expect that setting things right in the test side is likely to take more time than setting things right in the ODI format (which has been done excellently). Forget the loss to Pakistan in India, were we world beaters even before that? We were not. We did win the odd test overseas – in the process drawing against Australia in Australia and beating Pak in Pak (both great results mind you), but if we are honest about it, we were never a well rounded test team. Our bowling was never good enough to make us world beaters. The one victory we have against Australia in Australia (at Adelaide) came courtesy Agarkar (only talking about bowlers here) – who we all know is very inconsistent. He is still available, but is he even coming close to the way he bowled then? Can any coach/captain be blamed for AA not replicating his Adelaide exploits? It is just one of those frustrating questions that keep coming up about AA – nothing more or less. On the Pak tour, IP and Balaji were our match winners – and we are missing Balaji now. Remember, the same team management that achieved these successes also drew against a very weak NZ side in India and lost to Australia when they came back before drawing against a weak Pak side in India. Should we blame the team management for these entirely or accept that as a test team, we are still not in a position where we can consistently beat strong sides.

For all the excitement over the new finds and attempted return of Zaheer, we still do not have a pace attack that can consistently deliver. IP is the sole silver lining, but there is a limit to what he can do. In ODIs, it is relatively simpler to get around these issues – as it is more of a batsman’s game. In tests, it is obviously more difficult and will take more time – whoever the coach or captain is!!

[Blwe_torch]

ooh!....my smites have gone up!
did i say anything wrong?!

btw...great post achu...

[worma]

ruchir:

Worma: I'm sure the reason you say this is because we have lost 2 tests recently. One against PAK and one against ENG. Are you saying that loss of 2 tests is enough to show that we are slipping? We have also won 5 Tests. Does that amount to nothing? I mean we were ACTUALLY slipping when we lost a home series to AUS after returning victorious from PAK. That could be called slipping. Under GC we have won 1 away Test series, 1 home series, drawn 1 home series and lost 1 away series. Not an earth-shattering result, I must say. Not enough evidence to prove beyond resonable doubt that Indian Test team is slipping. What it does prove, to me, is that there is NOT enough evidence to prove anything.


W: Sorry but you were wrong, despite being sure. I took into account our 'performance' throughout the season, and not just the tests we 'lost'. Do you remember how unconvincing we were (esp in batting) against SL? And btw, read my comment carefully....I said it doesnt matter when (and under which coach/captain) the slipping actually started. We are not slipping if you just want to look at the final results..although that does include a home loss against England which is worse than most of the home losses in the past (yes even against Pak..since that was a much stronger team, and used to the conditions as well)


I have been saying that we have not had enough loses under GC to say that we are going downwards as a test team. I mean, have we played Tests against SA, AUS, NZ etc. and lost to them to show that we are consistently losing Tests and thereby going downwards? We have not even lost to ENG. We drew the series. So, I don't see any fact that very clearly tells me that "Hey, this is the proof that shows that India has detiriorated as a Test team since GC took over as coach."


W: We played average to bad cricket against SA (the draw in Kanpur), SL, Pak and Eng. The series results may not show that (actually against Eng, they do)


No one has, till date, provided any stat or fact or figures that prove beyond any doubt that under GC we have retrograded as a Test Team. The reason is that we have not played enough under GC for any credible data to be collected to provde this proof. Instead, we have won more than twice of what we have lost.

W: My argument was not limited to GS, JW kind of debate. In fact, in my opinion, we started slipping as a test team during the home series against Pak.

And why do you say that it doesn't matter if we are slightly better now than what we were under Wright in his last days as coach? I feel it matters a lot. I feel that it shows that contrary to popular belief of us slipping, it proves that we might actually be on our way upwards. Even thought the upwards slide is shallow, it is still going up and not down as many want us to believe. It shows that GC is doing his bit on the Test side also. It's just that result in Test are not coming as fast as they are in ODIs. For that, we have to be patient. Not say without evidence that we are slipping in Tests.

W: I say it doesnt matter if we were slightly better *during* the last days of Wright....for me the slipping process had already started.

[achutank]

it only shows we have players who can bat not more than 15 overs at a time and bowl 6-7 overs at a time. they do not know what to do once they are sorted and there are no restrictions like ODIs.

its like players  who are champions in building cricket, but you take them to the maidan and play the same tennins ball cricket they perform below par. because you have catchers in the maidans where there are sixers in the buildings eg.) ball hits the second floor parapet - 6. same shot in the maidan, ball comes down but fielder has run and positioned himself for the catch.

my point has been so far in the last month or so that GC does not have a real plan for tests, because if he had it would have shown. somewhere he knows that except for Dravid, Kumble, Bhajji there are really no great test players in this side. even yuvi has one more season of consistent evolving to be called a upcoming great test player.

" 7.1 Naved-ul-Hasan to Uthappa, OUT, first-blood! good length and close to the off stump, a relatively innocuous delivery, Uthappa looking to loft it away ends up hitting it straight to Mohammad Yousuf at mid-on, soft dismissal  "

GC's problems continue. the lack of application among indians is bordering on madness. here's my solution.

pay them in dollars. tell them they are working in IT. and have Aziz Premji become mentor with 6-monthly appriasals and project managers. suddenly same indian becomes obssesive with crossing the ts and dotting the is and meeting deliveries.

[Libran]

Achu...that is Azim...not Aziz....i used to work for him a few months back 

[achutank]

there another obsessive indian software guy. if i had written utapa he would not have corrected. 

[Libran]

there another obsessive indian software guy. if i had written utapa he would not have corrected. 

 

[ruchir]

" 7.1 Naved-ul-Hasan to Uthappa, OUT, first-blood! good length and close to the off stump, a relatively innocuous delivery, Uthappa looking to loft it away ends up hitting it straight to Mohammad Yousuf at mid-on, soft dismissal  "

GC's problems continue. the lack of application among indians is bordering on madness. here's my solution.

Achutank: Here is how Hayden got out against Bangladesh.... per Cricinfo.....

17.2     Mohammad Rafique to Hayden, OUT, Rafique strikes! flat delivery on the middle and off stump line, Hayden comes down the track and lofts it straight down the throat of Alok Kapali at long-on, probably beaten in the flight but that was a poor choice of shot with a man back in the deep

So, Hayden made a choice of shot on the field and got out. That too against Bangladesh. Would you call this a problem for the AUS coach? Would you call this lack of application from Hayden bordering on madness???

[Cover Point]

So, Hayden made a choice of shot on the field and got out. That too against Bangladesh. Would you call this a problem for the AUS coach? Would you call this lack of application from Hayden bordering on madness???

I think the coach should be fired! You know if you keep firing coaches for every bad shot played by a player, a lot of good may come of it. Soon they will run out of qualified coaches and then you or I could be India or Aussie coach ..atleast for a game. Hey Even Gavaskar may get a shot!

[achutank]

" 7.1 Naved-ul-Hasan to Uthappa, OUT, first-blood! good length and close to the off stump, a relatively innocuous delivery, Uthappa looking to loft it away ends up hitting it straight to Mohammad Yousuf at mid-on, soft dismissal  "

GC's problems continue. the lack of application among indians is bordering on madness. here's my solution.

Achutank: Here is how Hayden got out against Bangladesh.... per Cricinfo.....

17.2     Mohammad Rafique to Hayden, OUT, Rafique strikes! flat delivery on the middle and off stump line, Hayden comes down the track and lofts it straight down the throat of Alok Kapali at long-on, probably beaten in the flight but that was a poor choice of shot with a man back in the deep

So, Hayden made a choice of shot on the field and got out. That too against Bangladesh. Would you call this a problem for the AUS coach? Would you call this lack of application from Hayden bordering on madness???

you won't find this with Hayden all the time.with our players its more often than not. takea  look at yesterday's match for example. you think all of them got out to wicet taking deliveries. misjudging a ball in flight or the lenght is one thing (like inzi's dismissal); guiding the ball to the wicketkeeper that is criminal.

[Libran]

So, Hayden made a choice of shot on the field and got out. That too against Bangladesh. Would you call this a problem for the AUS coach? Would you call this lack of application from Hayden bordering on madness???

I think the coach should be fired! You know if you keep firing coaches for every bad shot played by a player, a lot of good may come of it. Soon they will run out of qualified coaches and then you or I could be India or Aussie coach ..atleast for a game. Hey Even Gavaskar may get a shot!

Oh..So we have a Qualified coach...

Qualified in what Management ?? email communication ??  Wearing different hats Media attention grabbing attending to finger injuries

[keep-it-cool]

So, Hayden made a choice of shot on the field and got out. That too against Bangladesh. Would you call this a problem for the AUS coach? Would you call this lack of application from Hayden bordering on madness???

I think the coach should be fired! You know if you keep firing coaches for every bad shot played by a player, a lot of good may come of it. Soon they will run out of qualified coaches and then you or I could be India or Aussie coach ..atleast for a game. Hey Even Gavaskar may get a shot!

Oh..So we have a Qualified coach...

Qualified in what Management ?? email communication ??  Wearing different hats Media attention grabbing attending to finger injuries

calling a spade a spade

[prfsr]

i think the zimbabwe series was a loosner where GC would seen a first hand view of how we do what we do in tests. i don't think he had any definite ideas till then in specific terms about areas of our test cricket. all the natural failings were there in zimbabwe also actually eve if we did win - the lack of application, discipline, fitness, temperament, technique in all departments of the game - we had the runouts, dropped catches, long periods of mediocre bowling, and batsment getting out to innocous stuff.

but post that if we see the improvement in ODIs does not have a significant counterpart in tests.

it only shows we have players who can bat not more than 15 overs at a time and bowl 6-7 overs at a time. they do not know what to do once they are sorted and there are no restrictions like ODIs.

its like players  who are champions in building cricket, but you take them to the maidan and play the same tennins ball cricket they perform below par. because you have catchers in the maidans where there are sixers in the buildings eg.) ball hits the second floor parapet - 6. same shot in the maidan, ball comes down but fielder has run and positioned himself for the catch.

my point has been so far in the last month or so that GC does not have a real plan for tests, because if he had it would have shown. somewhere he knows that except for Dravid, Kumble, Bhajji there are really no great test players in this side. even yuvi has one more season of consistent evolving to be called a upcoming great test player.

Excellent points. Note the contrast with Australia -- they had very good test players and brought in 1-2 players for ODI's. We strive to become good at ODI's -- so no wonder we encourage the "players who can bat not more than 15 overs at a time and bowl 6-7 overs at a time". Very succinct description, btw!

Then again, for all the lip service paid to tests, clearly our priorities are with ODI's -- in this DG we always highlight the ODI wins as proof of things going in the right direction. So as Prem said, BCCI is going (or trying to go) where the money is.

-p

[Libran]

Also, we need to take into consideration the fact that any coach or captain will be known by the World Cups or Tournaments won. At least in India that is the real truth. Do we remember Kapil as the captain who won Tests in England or Gavaskar as the captain who beat Aus in Aus and drew a test series. We still remember them for the WC(1983) and WCC(1985). We talk about SG the captain of the Natwest victory (chest baring aside) and the WC 2003. We demean Azhar for the pathetic WC 1999 display.

So GC know what will sell in this country..Test cricket can take a backseat inspite of the best players referring to that as the "True" game.

If he has to justify the dollars being paid, a minimum SF entry in the WC is a must. And in the current circumstances, that is a given unless India plays extremely poor cricket.And even if we do not reach the SF or the finals, he can always justify the result by talking of a young team ( avg age of 23-24), the learning process, the future being bright, WC 2011 and all other management bull*

[ruchir]

you won't find this with Hayden all the time.with our players its more often than not. takea  look at yesterday's match for example. you think all of them got out to wicet taking deliveries. misjudging a ball in flight or the lenght is one thing (like inzi's dismissal); guiding the ball to the wicketkeeper that is criminal.

achutank: Not long ago, Ganguly was the biggest culprit in Indian team of guiding the ball the the keeper. I never heard anyone say that Wright should be fired for that?? I'm sure you will remember tens of time when bowler would ball outside the off stump and Ganguly would guide it into keeper's hands. And this from a guy who has scored 15000 runs!!! How come no one remembers that and blasts Wright for not correcting that problem? How come people selectively critisize Chappell when a newcomer (or even regular player) plays a bad shot?

How can you say that this is not a problem with Hayden? Not long ago he was terribly out-of-form. He was dropped from one of the teams (ODI or Test, not sure). He too was getting out to mi*s and bad shots during that time. Did you or anyone else say that AUS coach should be fired?? If not, then why now, commenting against Chappell? Is it not selective critisism??

[ruchir]

Oh..So we have a Qualified coach...

Qualified in what Management ?? email communication ??  Wearing different hats Media attention grabbing attending to finger injuries

How do you know he is not qualified?? Legends and Doyens of Indian cricket selected him over all others. Still you have doubts??

[tombaan]

Oh..So we have a Qualified coach...

Qualified in what Management ?? email communication ??  Wearing different hats Media attention grabbing attending to finger injuries

How do you know he is not qualified?? Legends and Doyens of Indian cricket selected him over all others. Still you have doubts??

God in his infinite wisdom said let their be light and there was light on every soul that visited the Great DG...Ruchir try as you may it is not going to work....above two posts very good....I have appluaded you for that