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[ramshorns]

Raina gets maiden Test call-up

Cricinfo staff

February 9, 2010

Text size: A | A Suresh Raina, who made his international debut in 2005 and has played 87 ODIs, has been handed his maiden Test call-up. Also in contention for a spot in Kolkata, should VVS Laxman not pass a fitness Test, is Dinesh Karthik who pushed his case for a recall with two centuries in the Duleep Trophy final last week.

Sreesanth, who missed India's last two Tests with a thigh strain, also made his way back into the squad. The back-up seamers, Sudeep Tyagi and Abhimanyu Mithun, and reserve wicketkeeper, Wriddhiman Saha, were dropped from the squad for the Nagpur Test that India lost by an innings and six runs.


Karthik played in the second Test against Bangladesh in Mirpur recently.

Squad: MS Dhoni (capt/wk), Virender Sehwag, Gautam Gambhir, Murali Vijay, Sachin Tendulkar, VVS Laxman, S Badrinath, Harbhajan Singh, Amit Mishra, Zaheer Khan, Sreesanth, Ishant Sharma, Pragyan Ojha, Dinesh Kartik, Suresh Raina

[12th_Man]

Senses prevail. They finally have DKarthik in.
Don't think Raina will get a chance though. Badri and Vijay may still play in the next one.

[Cernunnos]

Senses prevail. They finally have DKarthik in.

I fail to see sense prevailing.
What was the logic of bringing in Karthik? Have his keeping skills improved overnight, or Saha has proven himself to be a dud as a keeper?

Don't think Raina will get a chance though. Badri and Vijay may still play in the next one.

Sreesanth has magically recovered from a hamstring injury, can we trust his match-fitness?

[justforkix]

I doubt if it will be anything but a rk turner, so most likely neither SS nor IS will play, It will ZK, HS, AM, and PO !!!

Selecting KKD instead of Saha is just correcting a mistake - bad for Saha, but good from India's point of view.

I guess Rohit is injured, so they've called up Raina ?

[Cover Point]

Dlee1, that $100 taiyyar rakhna. Remember Raina's bet? This maybe the first of the 10 matches Average was supposed to be 35

[Cernunnos]

I doubt if it will be anything but a rk turner, so most likely neither SS nor IS will play, It will ZK, HS, AM, and PO !!!

I will be pleasantly surprised if ZK will play without getting injured before/during the match !!

Selecting KKD instead of Saha is just correcting a mistake - bad for Saha, but good from India's point of view.

No - good for KKD, bad for India. KKD is a below par keeper and averages 23 in his last 10 tests.

[12th_Man]

Senses prevail. They finally have DKarthik in.

I fail to see sense prevailing.
What was the logic of bringing in Karthik? Have his keeping skills improved overnight, or Saha has proven himself to be a dud as a keeper?

I had mentioned in the other thread before, Saha was not selected in team to Keep wickets. It was understood MSD will keep wickets unless injured.
With RD and VVSL doubtful and Murali in team, I was not in favor of leaving a player with test experience like Karthik out. This has nothing to do with Saha's WK skills. It was just unfortunate it turned out this way

Don't think Raina will get a chance though. Badri and Vijay may still play in the next one.

Sreesanth has magically recovered from a hamstring injury, can we trust his match-fitness?

IMO selectors want those choices open this also may be after MSD's (read team) feedback

[12th_Man]

I doubt if it will be anything but a rk turner, so most likely neither SS nor IS will play, It will ZK, HS, AM, and PO !!!

I will be pleasantly surprised if ZK will play without getting injured before/during the match !!

Selecting KKD instead of Saha is just correcting a mistake - bad for Saha, but good from India's point of view.

No - good for KKD, bad for India. KKD is a below par keeper and averages 23 in his last 10 tests.

However overall he averags 27.77
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30045.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

I think Cernu, you are thinking it completely from Wkeeping perspective. If that was how the teams were formulated, MSD should not have had made to the team on pure WKeeping skills.

[Cernunnos]

I doubt if it will be anything but a rk turner, so most likely neither SS nor IS will play, It will ZK, HS, AM, and PO !!!

I will be pleasantly surprised if ZK will play without getting injured before/during the match !!

Selecting KKD instead of Saha is just correcting a mistake - bad for Saha, but good from India's point of view.

No - good for KKD, bad for India. KKD is a below par keeper and averages 23 in his last 10 tests.

However overall he averags 27.77
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30045.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

I think Cernu, you are thinking it completely from Wkeeping perspective. If that was how the teams were formulated, MSD should not have had made to the team on pure WKeeping skills.

I do not want MSD to be replaced. It is between KKD (or PP) and WS. KKD is a 23-27 averaging below par keeper. WS is unproven, but let's assume he is probably a 20-23 averaging, above par keeper. I would go for the latter. I am wary of wicket-keeping, because it can make a big difference. Think PP's botching up in 2003/4 Aus.

[kban1]

Raina ahead of Kohli is a wrong choice

I remain unconvinced of Raina's abilities against good pace bowling, especially short bowling.

bringing in KKD is a wrong choice too -- not just because it sends the wrong signal to Saha who was not even tested for his actual skill, wicketkeeping,  and was martyred due to selection folly but because KKD blocks the place of a batsman like Kohli or Pujara or Pandey.

[Cover Point]

Raina ahead of Kohli is a wrong choice

I remain unconvinced of Raina's abilities against good pace bowling, especially short bowling.

bringing in KKD is a wrong choice too -- not just because it sends the wrong signal to Saha who was not even tested for his actual skill, wicketkeeping,  and was martyred due to selection folly but because KKD blocks the place of a batsman like Kohli or Pujara or Pandey.

hope you are willing to blame the Bengalis/East Zone politics for this one.

[kban1]

hope you are willing to blame the Bengalis/East Zone politics for this one.

Please talk sense -- Saha was brought into the squad to replace KKD as reserve wicket keeper. Which was a justifiable move because he is  a better keeper than KKD, and KKD wasnt doing too well with the bat lately.

Saha playing the test was because Rohit went down to last minute injury and the selection committee did not have any other backup batsmen (such as raina, kohli, pandey, pujara, tiwary, whoever) because they wasted 2 slots by first selecting an extra pace bowler and then by selecting a not fully fit Laxman.

So the gaffe is selection committee's which forced Dhoni's hand once rohit was injured.

East Zone politics has nothing to do with it.

[12th_Man]

I doubt if it will be anything but a rk turner, so most likely neither SS nor IS will play, It will ZK, HS, AM, and PO !!!

I will be pleasantly surprised if ZK will play without getting injured before/during the match !!

Selecting KKD instead of Saha is just correcting a mistake - bad for Saha, but good from India's point of view.

No - good for KKD, bad for India. KKD is a below par keeper and averages 23 in his last 10 tests.

However overall he averags 27.77
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30045.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

I think Cernu, you are thinking it completely from Wkeeping perspective. If that was how the teams were formulated, MSD should not have had made to the team on pure WKeeping skills.

I do not want MSD to be replaced. It is between KKD (or PP) and WS. KKD is a 23-27 averaging below par keeper. WS is unproven, but let's assume he is probably a 20-23 averaging, above par keeper. I would go for the latter. I am wary of wicket-keeping, because it can make a big difference. Think PP's botching up in 2003/4 Aus.

Now i understand you POV better. MSD plays as a bat  and a separate specialist keeper like Saha plays.
While i think it is still too risky to try this approach for second test, but going forward, if the message is clearly communicated is worth a run.

However my view would be it may still NOT be sustainable in long run.

Reasons(Needless to say these are my opinions ) :

1. For MSD to succeed as  long term bat in tests scattered worldwide pitches, he has to be
  MSD >bat    RSharma,Badrinath,Yuvraj singh,Suresh Raina,Mvijay, Kohli,Pujara etc..

While MSD does have some numbers to his credit, but  all the above names IMO deserve a batting spot before MSD if it comes to pure technical test batting based selection.

MSD with all the success against various teams in shorter format still averages 20.4 from 12 inngs he has played in Aus and SAF. i.e. 245 runs in 12 inngs. against a career avg of 42.

---------
MSD's batting avg in Aus against AUS
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St 
unfiltered 42 2296 148 40.28 3 0 - - 0 109 20 Profile
filtered 4 141 38 17.62 0 - - - - 10 3
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=1;host=2;template=results;type=allround
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St 
unfiltered 42 2296 148 40.28 3 0 - - 0 109 20 Profile
filtered 2 104 47 26.00 0 - - - - 3 0
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=1;host=3;template=results;type=allround;view=innings
------------------

In addition to these numbers it is his unorthodox style that gets me worried most, You can get away from that in shorter games, but may be difficult to hide this consistently in long run in tests. We may not have to go too far then the last game.
Given a preference i would bet my money on somebody like Rohit , Badri , Murali,Raina + others to succeed in tests as pure bat.

2. Differential in batting avg(between a Bat+keep vs Bat)- I understand you gave KSanga as example in different thread with high differentials.
My prediction would be he won't go close to KS.  Most bats however over long run do increase their avg.

3.Team Balance: Comes back to you point of:
KKD is a 23-27 averaging below par keeper. WS is unproven, but let's assume he is probably a 20-23 averaging, above par keeper. I would go for the latter. I am wary of wicket-keeping, because it can make a big difference

If there are very visible notable goof ups, his WKeeping should have already raised eyebrows which is not.

So  he does not need to leave the Keeping because his keeping stds have deteriorated.
He has to relinquish it as we have an  option in the team who we think is a better keeper.
But is MSD consistently dropping easy chances or missing easy runouts or stumpings ? NO. Then what is that value added?  He may get some rest though which he can even take for the meaning less series.
MSD also does the keeping against the similar bowlers in other formats which is a plus.

4. Planned, Systematic crush of  KKD(again personal opinion ):  Dinesh Karthik has always been hovering around the Indian team as 13thman(read unlucky man). Poor guy was hardly given a consistent run with Gloves+bat. Dinesh Karthik in test format IMO would have been a better Keeper+ Bat than Dhoni if was given a consistent run. My personal read is MSD was scared what if DK succeeds.
e.g. In England, when MSD’s keeping was at its ebb, MSD decided to work on it rather selecting the alternative.
 
Last but not the least, most of the players get inducted in team on WKeeping skills with attitional batting advantage,  with time, they become better batters( There is a direct correlation between keeping and batting- This I can say from my personal experience that  when you stand behind the wicket for 20 overs and come to pick the bat: You see the ball much better, you are pre adjusted to the bounce, movement  etc..). Although Sangakkara’s case negates this point,  I would read  Sangakkara as a better technically accomplished bat and his initial WKeeping skills helped to hone it further. Gillichrist can also be added here. Acttually even bowlers increase their batting average as they get more matured and refined and continue the consistent run.

While it may be worth a shot to have MSD playing as a pure bat with WSaha as keeper.
However this should not be  but not at the cost blocking places of talented players like Raina,Rohit,Kohli,Badri, Pujara etc. I also feel very strongly MSD may not succeed as a pure test bat in varying conditions.

[12th_Man]

Raina ahead of Kohli is a wrong choice

I remain unconvinced of Raina's abilities against good pace bowling, especially short bowling.

bringing in KKD is a wrong choice too -- not just because it sends the wrong signal to Saha who was not even tested for his actual skill, wicketkeeping,  and was martyred due to selection folly but because KKD blocks the place of a batsman like Kohli or Pujara or Pandey.

This one i am neither convinced nor agree.
The only possbile comparisons recently could be dupleep trophy where KKD outshone all these bats.
Plus KKD also brings the experince of playing tests since 05 against worldwide bowling attacks, something we desperately need in absense major names. Please read there are newbees like  Vijay and Badri in team.
Karthik is not brought in team for only batting. He is in team
1. Experience over others in tests.
2. 2 newbees (MO) in the same team
3. Latest two centuries that proved him over the comparison we are making.

[RicePlateReddy]

Saha was brought into the squad to replace KKD as reserve wicket keeper. Which was a justifiable move because he is  a better keeper than KKD, and KKD wasnt doing too well with the bat lately.

Is it widely believed that he is a better keeper than KKD? At this stage, the strongest support will come from articles and match reports I guess. Do you have any links?

[kban1]

Raina ahead of Kohli is a wrong choice

I remain unconvinced of Raina's abilities against good pace bowling, especially short bowling.

bringing in KKD is a wrong choice too -- not just because it sends the wrong signal to Saha who was not even tested for his actual skill, wicketkeeping,  and was martyred due to selection folly but because KKD blocks the place of a batsman like Kohli or Pujara or Pandey.

This one i am neither convinced nor agree.
The only possbile comparisons recently could be dupleep trophy where KKD outshone all these bats.
Plus KKD also brings the experince of playing tests since 05 against worldwide bowling attacks, something we desperately need in absense major names. Please read there are newbees like  Vijay and Badri in team.
Karthik is not brought in team for only batting. He is in team
1. Experience over others in tests.
2. 2 newbees (MO) in the same team
3. Latest two centuries that proved him over the comparison we are making.

Do you honestly believe KKD as a pure batter is good enough to keep out specialist bats like Raina, Kohli, Yuvraj, Pandey, Pujara etc ?

You just said in a prior post that even MSD (better bat than KKD, I think we would agree) does not deserve a place in the squad ahead of such specialist bats.

The question is how can KKD be treated as a specialist bat ahead of these players ?

[kban1]

Saha was brought into the squad to replace KKD as reserve wicket keeper. Which was a justifiable move because he is  a better keeper than KKD, and KKD wasnt doing too well with the bat lately.

Is it widely believed that he is a better keeper than KKD? At this stage, the strongest support will come from articles and match reports I guess. Do you have any links?

I believe from what I have watched of WS and of KKD today, WS is a better keeper.

I believe Cullinan mentioned the same yesterday on Tv --that in his chats with people in India, WS has been rated as the top gloveman in the country. He asked the same q of Shastri who responded that he had not seen much of WS, but according to the selection committee of India, WS is being thought of as the best wicket keeper in the country.

Cernu posted  a link to an article yesterday which talked of SG evaluating him as a highly accomplished keeper. Thatview was seconded by Sambaran Banerjee, former bengal skipper and WK. The article also mentioned that WS's keeping had highly impressed Buchanan and Ponting who both believe that WS is special.

[12th_Man]

Raina ahead of Kohli is a wrong choice

I remain unconvinced of Raina's abilities against good pace bowling, especially short bowling.

bringing in KKD is a wrong choice too -- not just because it sends the wrong signal to Saha who was not even tested for his actual skill, wicketkeeping,  and was martyred due to selection folly but because KKD blocks the place of a batsman like Kohli or Pujara or Pandey.

This one i am neither convinced nor agree.
The only possbile comparisons recently could be dupleep trophy where KKD outshone all these bats.
Plus KKD also brings the experince of playing tests since 05 against worldwide bowling attacks, something we desperately need in absense major names. Please read there are newbees like  Vijay and Badri in team.
Karthik is not brought in team for only batting. He is in team
1. Experience over others in tests.
2. 2 newbees (MO) in the same team
3. Latest two centuries that proved him over the comparison we are making.

Do you honestly believe KKD as a pure batter is good enough to keep out specialist bats like Raina, Kohli, Yuvraj, Pandey, Pujara etc ?

In the current scenario where we are missing two or more MO bats KKD is a better choice as a batsman for the 3 basic reasons pointed above.  Is he the no1. batsman  in pure bat list ? NO.

I somehow think few over here are purely considering individual meritorious batsman for the next available spot. This is fine in a normal procedural scenario.
I have made it very clear to  give your best batsman a chance and confidence when  players like RD,VVS,SRT to carry him along.
When you miss your 2 or 3 core .MO batsman, you can not take the same approach.

In conventional  cricket Murali Vijay  would not make it to the team as he is an opener and opening spot is not free.
Anyway considering last match scenario he was in team.
The next two better MO batsmen successful at domestic level in longer version let us say are Badri and Pujara.

Your MO looks like
GG,VS,SRT,MV,BADRI,PUJARA ,MSD against the one of thebest pace attacks.

When you consider somebody like Rohit for the spot of pujara, it is not because Rohit has made less runs then Pujara in domestics. It is because Rohit also brings some intl experience along.
As a complete package for the balanced team  Rohit would be  better option than Pujara.

My preference of including KKD in first match or second match is not a recommended procedural approach.

It was/is (obviously IMO) the best mix and match bat + exp we can have to succeed as team in current context.

Same was the reason for not agreeing Saha keep in 1st match. The middle order already has three MO unknown bats against world's best attack. You add one more unknown with Saha keeping the wickets even when you tried and tested keeper from past years is still available.
The idea is not to increase the risks and unknowns, the idea is to mitigate them.

You just said in a prior post that even MSD (better bat than KKD, I think we would agree) does not deserve a place in the squad ahead of such specialist bats.
The question is how can KKD be treated as a specialist bat ahead of these players ?

The post w.r.t MSD is for the longer run and not a one or two test scenario against top team like SAF with theree middle order bats missing.
Had Saha been given the confidence and enough practice early on that he was keeping against the likes of HS and Mishra with understanding developed among these. I was fine. My concern was his last minute forced inclusion with other happenings involved.

[WicketView]

Saha was brought into the squad to replace KKD as reserve wicket keeper. Which was a justifiable move because he is  a better keeper than KKD, and KKD wasnt doing too well with the bat lately.

Is it widely believed that he is a better keeper than KKD? At this stage, the strongest support will come from articles and match reports I guess. Do you have any links?

For what it is worth, Saha being a really good keeper was a view espoused by Gavaskar and Shastri during commentary in the match. Gavaskar was also clear that this was not his personal opinion (since he had not watched him), but the opinion that he had gathered from cricketing circles. I don't recall the exact words, but I believe he said something along the lines of "he is thought to be the best wicket keeper in the country by many".

[dextrous]

Dinesh Karthik in test format IMO would have been a better Keeper+ Bat than Dhoni if was given a consistent run. My personal read is MSD was scared what if DK succeeds.
e.g. In England, when MSD’s keeping was at its ebb, MSD decided to work on it rather selecting the alternative.

If you really think Dhoni is scared about his place in the team, then it is difficult to have a serious convo. In what regard would Karthik have been a better option? Dhoni currently averages 40 in tests, which for a #8, is pretty damn impressive. He's adapted his game to suit test cricket's need. As a gloveman, KKD leaves much to be desired, whatever might be the reason (i.e. 12th manning, etc.).

In some ways it is similar to the comparison between Stewart and Russell...in fact in this case Jack Russell was a rare talent...here, however, KKD is not even significantly better enough than Dhoni in keeping to overtake Dhoni as the best keeper of the nation.

Neither is Saha, regardless of what his ex-coach or Ganguly, his captain says. This is much like Dravid propping up his state teammates. That's not to say that Saha is not good, he might be better than Dhoni as a keeper, but is he better enough to take Dhoni's spot? Doubtful.

[sudzz]

Dinesh Karthik in test format IMO would have been a better Keeper+ Bat than Dhoni if was given a consistent run. My personal read is MSD was scared what if DK succeeds.
e.g. In England, when MSD’s keeping was at its ebb, MSD decided to work on it rather selecting the alternative.

If you really think Dhoni is scared about his place in the team, then it is difficult to have a serious convo. In what regard would Karthik have been a better option? Dhoni currently averages 40 in tests, which for a #8, is pretty damn impressive. He's adapted his game to suit test cricket's need. As a gloveman, KKD leaves much to be desired, whatever might be the reason (i.e. 12th manning, etc.).

In some ways it is similar to the comparison between Stewart and Russell...in fact in this case Jack Russell was a rare talent...here, however, KKD is not even significantly better enough than Dhoni in keeping to overtake Dhoni as the best keeper of the nation.

Neither is Saha, regardless of what his ex-coach or Ganguly, his captain says. This is much like Dravid propping up his state teammates. That's not to say that Saha is not good, he might be better than Dhoni as a keeper, but is he better enough to take Dhoni's spot? Doubtful.

I completely agree with what Dex has said, additionally, if any one player in the team is secure in his position and his role and does not fear the axe is Dhoni, I have not seen him ever shying away from taking the right call be it either in tinkering with the batting order or even selecting or dropping or someone that deserves to be there.

In case of Saha I think it was a travesty that he was literally selected at the last minute and thrown in the deep end, I dont think this means anything more than the fact that he is on the radar and will get his chances again, the problem for us is that we dont have a good balance in this team and I don't think before we resolve our middle order issues with identified successors we are going to overly bother ourselves with who the back up wicket keeper is going to be..

[justforkix]

Selecting KKD instead of Saha is just correcting a mistake - bad for Saha, but good from India's point of view.

No - good for KKD, bad for India. KKD is a below par keeper and averages 23 in his last 10 tests.

I don't think he's below par. If required to be picked as a pure bat, as it so happened in the last test, KKD is a better bat than Saha (8 50+ scores in 40 innings, 36 50+ scores in 125 innings)

[justforkix]

bringing in KKD is a wrong choice too -- not just because it sends the wrong signal to Saha who was not even tested for his actual skill, wicketkeeping,  and was martyred due to selection folly but because KKD blocks the place of a batsman like Kohli or Pujara or Pandey.

If KKD blocks that place, then so does Saha.....

[kban1]

In the current scenario where we are missing two or more MO bats KKD is a better choice as a batsman for the 3 basic reasons pointed above.  Is he the no1. batsman  in pure bat list ? NO.

I somehow think few over here are purely considering individual meritorious batsman for the next available spot. This is fine in a normal procedural scenario.
I have made it very clear to  give your best batsman a chance and confidence when  players like RD,VVS,SRT to carry him along.
When you miss your 2 or 3 core .MO batsman, you can not take the same approach.

In conventional  cricket Murali Vijay  would not make it to the team as he is an opener and opening spot is not free.
Anyway considering last match scenario he was in team.
The next two better MO batsmen successful at domestic level in longer version let us say are Badri and Pujara.

Your MO looks like
GG,VS,SRT,MV,BADRI,PUJARA ,MSD against the one of thebest pace attacks.

When you consider somebody like Rohit for the spot of pujara, it is not because Rohit has made less runs then Pujara in domestics. It is because Rohit also brings some intl experience along.
As a complete package for the balanced team  Rohit would be  better option than Pujara.

My preference of including KKD in first match or second match is not a recommended procedural approach.

It was/is (obviously IMO) the best mix and match bat + exp we can have to succeed as team in current context.

Same was the reason for not agreeing Saha keep in 1st match. The middle order already has three MO unknown bats against world's best attack. You add one more unknown with Saha keeping the wickets even when you tried and tested keeper from past years is still available.
The idea is not to increase the risks and unknowns, the idea is to mitigate them.

I understand what you are saying.

However, my MO would have been GG,VS,SRT,MV,BADRI, KOHLI ,MSD -- assuming VVS is not available for Calcutta (we know he wass not available for Nagpur). I would select Kohli above instead of Pujara based on experience and what I have seen of Kohli. I would not select Rohit (despite his experience) because this kid doesnt know how to build on starts and at this point I am not interested in attractive 20's.

In that scenario, KKD (Or Saha) blocks Kohli (or Pujara or Pandey's spot).

The post w.r.t MSD is for the longer run and not a one or two test scenario against top team like SAF with theree middle order bats missing.
Had Saha been given the confidence and enough practice early on that he was keeping against the likes of HS and Mishra with understanding developed among these. I was fine. My concern was his last minute forced inclusion with other happenings involved.

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. I didnt say that Saha should have played ahead of any of these other batsmen either.

And I was just as concerned over his last minute inclusion, which I blame on the selector's lack of foresight.

My point was --once MSD was forced to select him, he should have allowed the kid to keep and gain some confidence which might have helped him bat better (since he was selected as a batsman --or as a batsman substitute). WK is his specialty, his confidence would have carried over, not to mention the fact that having kept wickets he would bat better -- better gauge of wicket, bounce, bowlers, set eyes, etc.

And my comment about him being replaced with KKD stems from that also. What the team needed was another batsman, not another replacement wicketkeeper. Send the wrong signal to WS after being pitchforked into the match as a batsman at the last moment, not given a chance to display his primary skill, and then shunted out of the team --not in favor of  abatsman, but in favor of the very reserve wicketkeeper that he had been selected to replace.

[justforkix]

Infact, in this must win situation now, we should have brought back Irfan Pathan and played him as our 5th bowler instead of an extra batsman. If VVS is fit, drop Vijay

Gambhir
Sehwag
VVS/Vijay
Sachin
Badri
Dhoni
Irfan
Bhajji
Ojha
Zaheer
Sreesanth

[kban1]

bringing in KKD is a wrong choice too -- not just because it sends the wrong signal to Saha who was not even tested for his actual skill, wicketkeeping,  and was martyred due to selection folly but because KKD blocks the place of a batsman like Kohli or Pujara or Pandey.

If KKD blocks that place, then so does Saha.....

And who said anything different ?

if you follow the posts, it should be apparent that I was against picking WS instead of a specialist bat. Once he was picked due to unavoidable circumstances, he should have been allowed to keep for tactical reasons --build confidence, calm the nerves --all of which would come in handy for the time at bat.

My objection was to him being dropped after 1 test without him getting a chance to display his skills, and that too after being pitchforked as a specialist bat substitute at the last minute. And the objection is not with the dropping itself but with the replacement. being dropped for a specialist bat is one thing, being dropped for the very person who you were picked to replace (another WK) is dumbfounding when that wicketkeeper does not substitute for a specialist bat.

So, yes, I agree that both Saha and KKD are blocking the space of a specialist bat. Which is why replacing Saha with KKD is dumb.

Some would argue replacing KKD with Saha in the first place was taking a decicion on a hair triger and there is some merit to that argument. It is very difficult to come in off the bench for odd matches and perform off the bat --I am on KKD's side as far as the treatment he has received is concerned --based on the circumstances.

However, if the selectors selected WS because he is a better keeper than KKD, then its foolhardy to go back to KKD in the next test --given WS didnt get a chance to keep, and given that the team needs batsmen, not WK.

I am perfectly ok if both were dropped to make room for a batsman.

[justforkix]

And who said anything different ?

if you follow the posts, it should be apparent that I was against picking WS instead of a specialist bat. Once he was picked due to unavoidable circumstances, he should have been allowed to keep for tactical reasons --build confidence, calm the nerves --all of which would come in handy for the time at bat.

maybe he was not the WK for a simple reason that team management (coach+support) felt that MSD is better than him as a WK too.

My objection was to him being dropped after 1 test without him getting a chance to display his skills, and that too after being pitchforked as a specialist bat substitute at the last minute. And the objection is not with the dropping itself but with the replacement. being dropped for a specialist bat is one thing, being dropped for the very person who you were picked to replace (another WK) is dumbfounding when that wicketkeeper does not substitute for a specialist bat.

So, yes, I agree that both Saha and KKD are blocking the space of a specialist bat. Which is why replacing Saha with KKD is dumb.

Some would argue replacing KKD with Saha in the first place was taking a decicion on a hair triger and there is some merit to that argument. It is very difficult to come in off the bench for odd matches and perform off the bat --I am on KKD's side as far as the treatment he has received is concerned --based on the circumstances.

However, if the selectors selected WS because he is a better keeper than KKD, then its foolhardy to go back to KKD in the next test --given WS didnt get a chance to keep, and given that the team needs batsmen, not WK.

I am perfectly ok if both were dropped to make room for a batsman.

A backup WK is always picked to be the next best WK and also fill in as the extra batsman if unexpectedly required, i.e., a couple of batters getting injured in the last minute, same reason why a backup WK is picked. Selectors realized this mistake the hard way in the 1st test. I'm not supporting the selectors, but selecting WS over KKD was wrong in the 1st place IMO - not sure what WS did better than KKD in the last season to deserve a spot ahead of KKD. Haven't read about bloopers from either this season, so I guess their WK were ok, KKD averaged 55 while Saha averaged 39. So, a wrong was corrected IMO, hence my point, unfair/bad for Saha, but good for India.

[broadbat]

Unless they have a rank turner I do not see us picking 20 wickets at the Eden either. Having lost the first now they have no option but to go in with an extra bowler.

[pzd]

Unless they have a rank turner I do not see us picking 20 wickets at the Eden either. Having lost the first now they have no option but to go in with an extra bowler.

Ind may go in 3 spinners and Bhajji will open the  bowling with zaheer.His transformation from a spinner  to pacer will be complete

[kban1]

maybe he was not the WK for a simple reason that team management (coach+support) felt that MSD is better than him as a WK too.

maybe -- although if one actually saw MSD and WS keep wickets, I think the room for such a fallacious conclusion would be swiftly removed. Thats what I feel after seeing WS keep in IPL. In any case --this point is moot and irrelevant. The more important point is that tactically, it was the better move to give the debutant some experience keeping before sending him into bat.

A backup WK is always picked to be the next best WK and also fill in as the extra batsman if unexpectedly required, i.e., a couple of batters getting injured in the last minute, same reason why a backup WK is picked. Selectors realized this mistake the hard way in the 1st test. I'm not supporting the selectors, but selecting WS over KKD was wrong in the 1st place IMO - not sure what WS did better than KKD in the last season to deserve a spot ahead of KKD. Haven't read about bloopers from either this season, so I guess their WK were ok, KKD averaged 55 while Saha averaged 39. So, a wrong was corrected IMO, hence my point, unfair/bad for Saha, but good for India.

I dont disagree with the fact that they may have pulled the trigger a tad fast on KKD, However, I can see why selectors would attempt to give another WK (one touted to be  a better glove man) a chance in the squad in place of KKD after KKD's pedestrian showing in the one occasion he got a chance to keep in recent times -- a recent ODI against SL.

From that perspective, comparing batting averages is moot and irrelevant anyways.

And while it may be bad for Saha and good for KKD, I dont think its good for India to have either of these guys in the team at the expense of specialist bats. if the selectors had dropped a pace bowler (as they should have) and accommodated an extra bat, then either of their presence makes sense.

[12th_Man]

Unless they have a rank turner I do not see us picking 20 wickets at the Eden either. Having lost the first now they have no option but to go in with an extra bowler.

Ind may go in 3 spinners and Bhajji will open the  bowling with zaheer.His transformation from a spinner  to pacer will be complete

LOL..
Seriously,  India is kind of stuck in this match.
Playing Ojha is not an easy choice considering Smith, prince and Duminy bat left hand. Mishra and HS failed. IS is just lost in memories when he was the  best bowler in side and the 950K seem to ruin his life. only ZAK has some gas left.
There are not really much options for india to focus on taking 20 wickets. Harris looked a better spinner than HS  .
Sometimes i think why not focus to make it a batting pith instead of bowling(or turner). May be with some experience back in side can survive on that front.
It will be interesting to watch how India approaches this game. WIll they get third spinner in ? would they get somebody like Rain in and expect him to use spin if needed ? Having only ZK as seamer is very risky, what if the bowl dosen;t turn in 1st two days while SAF wins the toss and descides to bat?

[kban1]

having one pacer is always risky.

Eden gardens always offers assistance to seamers (irrespective of the nature of the pitch) because of the moisture and wind from the Hooghly river, which is just a stone's throw from the stadium.

Play Zak, play Sreesanth --swing is likely to be a factor in the mornings and late afternoons

[Cernunnos]

Spinning track with three spinners is a silly knee jerk reaction. 2 seamers and 2 pacers are the way to go.
Let's learn from history: http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64110.html
The much reviled Harbhajan won us that test, btw. Have to say that the absence of a third seamer all-rounder will hit us big time.

[gouravk]

whatever happened to play your best bowlers theory ? with that in mind without a doubt zak and sreesanth GOT to play. the other 2 places are up for grabs - my choices would be ojha and ishant

[Cover Point]

having one pacer is always risky.

Eden gardens always offers assistance to seamers (irrespective of the nature of the pitch) because of the moisture and wind from the Hooghly river, which is just a stone's throw from the stadium.

Play Zak, play Sreesanth --swing is likely to be a factor in the mornings and late afternoons

then the answer is simple isnt it? Move the stadium away from the Hooghly. Or you can take the easier choice of moving the Hooghly away. Should we petition Mamta Behenji?

[ramshorns]

whatever happened to play your best bowlers theory ? with that in mind without a doubt zak and sreesanth GOT to play. the other 2 places are up for grabs - my choices would be ojha and ishant

With HS being totally ineffective for ever in Tests it makes sense to think of VS as the off-spinner option and go with ZK, SS/IS, PO, AM and VS as the five bowling options and there you have the best balance attack based on the 15 we have for this Test.

SS can only play when there is absolutely no doubt about the longevity in the Test.  He had strained leg and hamstring problem which can be really tricky.  No one can gaurantee that despite all the rehab he went through recently.  IMO unless he plays a FC game he should not be allowed in the Test XI especially him being a pace bowler with a speedy run up.  It is a huge risk and I will play it safe and include IS instead.  Then it would be great if we have a bowling line up of ZK, IS, AM, PO, VS for this Test.

But do not count on it and expect the insipid HS be included given the kind of pool he enjoys in the team by being so close to Tendulkar which always can help.

[gouravk]

i would rather go for broke and pick SS anyway. that is a huge gamble i am willing to take. as i said before i shall also keep IS in the team. so just in case SS breaks down IS is there to do the yards. i will pick ojha as the premier spinner. i have no great hopes from mishra so i shall drop him. ojha and sehwag will form the spin attack.

this is a fairly balanced attack IMO. keep the risky SS and the relatively steady but unspectacular IS in. pin your hopes on ojha and vs delivering. and of course there is zak

the sardar of course is not even worth a mention.

[RicePlateReddy]

If we are desperate to win this, I would first convince and then play Kumble. Why should only batsmen make unexpected comebacks? His shoulder will be well rested and he will be highly motivated (when isn't he?), he would bring in a nice surprise factor, and will deliver against these SAFers.

[12th_Man]

Let us be a bit fair to Singh saabji. he took 6 and 5 wickets in Mumbai and Kanpur respectively against SL.
Rewinding to 01 memories and his contribution agaisnt Aus win, I am sure he will be in team.
That brings back the same options of Ojha vs Amit. Mishra has not done anything earth shattering in last match and the players have played them confidentely. Ojha still has the chance to throw in a surprise.
As per Pacers, I think it is a no brainer. If SS is fit, get him in, else get IS in.
There is no way that an injured bowler should make it to team unless fully fit.

[Cover Point]

i would rather go for broke and pick SS anyway. that is a huge gamble i am willing to take. as i said before i shall also keep IS in the team. so just in case SS breaks down IS is there to do the yards. i will pick ojha as the premier spinner. i have no great hopes from mishra so i shall drop him. ojha and sehwag will form the spin attack.

this is a fairly balanced attack IMO. keep the risky SS and the relatively steady but unspectacular IS in. pin your hopes on ojha and vs delivering. and of course there is zak

the sardar of course is not even worth a mention.

God's gone crazy. We are looking for a spinning track and you want to pick 3 seamers? Our boys cant bowl in green tops and you want three of them on a supposedly rank turner!