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[sudzz]

By unlucky I mean that this particular cricketer or cricketers had the talent and the ability but did not succeed at the highest level for one or the other reason.

Example Shivalkar and Goel just being born in the wrong time with a wrong vocation or Ian Bishop and Saba Karim debilitating injuries or Ben Hollioake etc.

Then of course there are others who get selected either too early or too late in their career and their peaks are past them therefore they struggle and are written off as failures (but this is not strictly unlucky).

It would be interesting to figure who such players are?

By the way I don't think South Africans would necessarily qualify under this since efffectively they were not a cricketing nation as far as ICC was concerned during the apartheid regime.

[Blwe_torch]

Nice topic.
Well, Chetan Sharma comes to mind, for being hounded for one last ball sixer.
I can name a few players from Bengal/ Bihar/ Punjab, who got the raw deal. Some of them were not strong enough to persevere season after season, after being perpetually ignored and they lost their form ultimately.

I also feel for Chetan Chauhan, who missed out on a few deserving centuries......he was one gutsy cricketer.

[dextrous]

nice thread...

1. Saba Karim: In light of Dhoni's exploits, it is esp. shocking that the most talented wk/bat of his generation was ignored until he was past his prime. This guy was a lot more talented than Dhoni and could have possibly made a big difference down the order when India's lower order was brittle.

2. Subroto Bannerjee: I cannot think of a sadder loss for india than that of Subroto. When Sreenath was toiling away alone in country after country, Subroto was left cooling his heel. he should have been the ideal new ball partner for Srinath, but somehow, never got a look in after some very decent outings in Australia and South Africa.

3. Sarandeep Singh: Plain unlucky that Harbhajan got the nod! I think with proper motivation he could have been equally good.

4. Vinod Kambli: C'mon, look at his average! On that alone, I'd have given him 15 more matches.

5. Aakash Chopra: Should have had a home series at some point.

6. SS Das & S Ramesh: Decent openers but fell away

7 S Sharath: Tough not to get a single int'l.

8. Mark Ramprakash: Not since Bradman has anybody scored so heavily for 8 consecutive seasons. Should've gotten another look in

[keep-it-cool]

There was this player called K P Bhaskar or Bhaskar Pillai ..dont remember which. I've never seen him play but he used to pile on the runs by the truckloads in ranji and other domestic tournaments ...finally he got picked for an ODI, which got washed out. He never made the squad again.

[dhruvdeepak]

1. Saba Karim: In light of Dhoni's exploits, it is esp. shocking that the most talented wk/bat of his generation was ignored until he was past his prime. This guy was a lot more talented than Dhoni and could have possibly made a big difference down the order when India's lower order was brittle.

he batted well in his debut odi (made 50 odd against SA) and never impressed me after that

2. Subroto Bannerjee: I cannot think of a sadder loss for india than that of Subroto. When Sreenath was toiling away alone in country after country, Subroto was left cooling his heel. he should have been the ideal new ball partner for Srinath, but somehow, never got a look in after some very decent outings in Australia and South Africa.

why did he give up after only 60 FC games? or is that a lot? seems like an early finish to a career where he got a taste of intl cricket at age 22.

3. Sarandeep Singh: Plain unlucky that Harbhajan got the nod! I think with proper motivation he could have been equally good.

possibly one of the worst off-non-spinners of all time. i cant believe you have this twerp in your list. major negative respect for you.
it is fitting that he is whiling away his time playing for assam or mizoram or something.

4. Vinod Kambli: C'mon, look at his average! On that alone, I'd have given him 15 more matches.

his test average of 54 equals his average number of alcoholic beverages per day. only being sachin's chaddi buddy got him to that number of tests and odis.
a sad loss for indian cricket

5. Aakash Chopra: Should have had a home series at some point.

yeah he probably got unlucky...but at the end of the day he was not a fit. this is not a NZ team where you can get by averaging 20-odd

6. SS Das & S Ramesh: Decent openers but fell away

yes i liked them both, more than aakash chopra. i felt ramesh was given the shaft a bit early

7 S Sharath: Tough not to get a single int'l.

one of many!!

8. Mark Ramprakash: Not since Bradman has anybody scored so heavily for 8 consecutive seasons. Should've gotten another look in

mental more than skill deficiency. he probably overcame it by the end (actually he must still be playing county?)

[feverpitch]

3. Sarandeep Singh: Plain unlucky that Harbhajan got the nod! I think with proper motivation he could have been equally good.

I'd rather go with Rajesh Chauhan, who could have been backed up by the Board/Captain Azza, as in the case of Murli by the SL Board and Ranatunga.

Also, Abey Kuruvilla in his prime, not when he had already toiled for 6 seasons taking truckloads of wickets without reward.

And Ranadeb Bose -- certainly 2 seasons ago for tests, and maybe even now.

[vincent]

How about Salil Ankola? Was he a great fast bowler?

[keep-it-cool]

Ankola did get his opportunities in ODIs but never seemed to translate his success at the domestic level out there. He may have been unlucky in that he bowled mainly on flat tracks ..but I doubt anything could be flatter than what bowlers bowl on these days. Once Srinath established himself, it was always going to be difficult for him.

[CLR James]

Vivek Razdan

[gouravk]

amol muzumdar

[dhruvdeepak]

dhruv deepak

[Blwe_torch]

Sadanand Vishwanath

[sudzz]

Guys like Sadanand Viswanath, Salil Ankola,Razdan were not really unlucky they at least got a look in, but for a person like Saba Karim who let alone his batting was a fabulous keeper to get hit in the eye and almost lose sight etc that is unlucky.

Ranadeb Bose (I have not seen much of him I admit) is unlucky cause he never got a look in. Abey Kuruvilla ( of whom I have faced one over and got bowled thrice) did not get in when he should have.

Guys like Siva, Sadanand and Kambli did not know a good thing when they had it, guys like Razdan, Rajesh Chauhan did not get up the curve fast enough.

Regarding Subroto Banerjee, I have seen him bowl in one or two games and India having selected people like Sanjeev Sharma (remember him from the late 80's?) then Subroto would have done nothing worse....

[WicketView]

Saba Karim was undoubtedly unlucky. On the other hand, someone like Sadanand Viswanath was a much better wicketkeeper. It was strange that Pandit (a fairly decent batsman) and More (who was in between) made the cut.

I would second KIC's pick. Being a middle order batsman was his problem. While getting into the Indian eleven might have been hard for this reason, he definitely should have been in the squad. Unfortunately, the selectors would usually select the team on the basis of one or two match which had all the top candidates, and being on the winning side/producing a performance that day was the key.

Oh yes, Subroto Banerjee and Kambli too. Kambli did play horribly against the WI. But worse players have improved to make worthy contributions. Somehow Kambli was never given that opportunity ... I believe that there were biases that prevented that.

[dextrous]

Saba Karim was undoubtedly unlucky. On the other hand, someone like Sadanand Viswanath was a much better wicketkeeper. It was strange that Pandit (a fairly decent batsman) and More (who was in between) made the cut.

Yes, how More managed to play that many games is beyond me. He was a decent keeper, but with Pandit and Karim being equally decent keepers and far far far superior batsmen, he still managed to hold on to his spot--even in ODIs where he averaged 11 or the likes.

[feverpitch]

Saba Karim was undoubtedly unlucky. On the other hand, someone like Sadanand Viswanath was a much better wicketkeeper. It was strange that Pandit (a fairly decent batsman) and More (who was in between) made the cut.

Yes, how More managed to play that many games is beyond me. He was a decent keeper, but with Pandit and Karim being equally decent keepers and far far far superior batsmen, he still managed to hold on to his spot--even in ODIs where he averaged 11 or the likes.

the key might be in the fact that he has managed to be in the news, and hold on to BCCI posts, even after retirement, when, given his non-impact (except for his antics with Miandad) he should have been consigned to the dustbins... while many true greats either never make it into the administration, or are hounded out...

[keep-it-cool]

I don't see what playing ability has to do with administration. How much cricket has Dalmiya or Pawar or Modi played?

[feverpitch]

I don't see what playing ability has to do with administration. How much cricket has Dalmiya or Pawar or Modi played?

agreed in principle. but considering the quality of administrators we have in kirkut, i'm sure some players in the body would not be such a bad idea.

as for More, his kirkut, administration, and hobnobbing all shine thru...

[flute]

I don't see what playing ability has to do with administration. How much cricket has Dalmiya or Pawar or Modi played?

so is it your contention the above are administrators par excellence? if not, how will their mere presence butress the point you are making?

[Cover Point]

point is that ALL cricket administrators make it to the positions not due to their cricket or other skills but due to their buttressing and political skills. Ganguly has a very good chance.

[flute]

point is that ALL cricket administrators make it to the positions not due to their cricket or other skills but due to their buttressing and political skills. Ganguly has a very good chance.

well the point is, none of them make it because of their administrative skills.

[Cover Point]

point is that ALL cricket administrators make it to the positions not due to their cricket or other skills but due to their buttressing and political skills. Ganguly has a very good chance.

well the point is, none of them make it because of their administrative skills.

exactly. Ganguly has a very good chance

[keep-it-cool]

I don't see what playing ability has to do with administration. How much cricket has Dalmiya or Pawar or Modi played?

agreed in principle. but considering the quality of administrators we have in kirkut, i'm sure some players in the body would not be such a bad idea.

Well you have the likes of Brijesh Patel, Dilip Vengsarkar, Shivlal Yadav & now Ganguly involved as well ...I dont see any evidence that these guys have been able to do much more than the non cricketers. It also shows that they can get involved if they want to.

Having said that, cricketers need not turn out to be good administrators. How did making Kapil or SMG or later Shastri the head of the national academy help? They should be involved on the technical side ...making recommendations on things that need to be done from a cricketing perspective, selection, coaching etc.. And a lot of that is being done. But players also need to be willing to take on the responsibility and run with it rather than go off on commentary / media pursuits (as was the case with SMG and Shastri)

as for More, his kirkut, administration, and hobnobbing all shine thru...

[keep-it-cool]

I don't see what playing ability has to do with administration. How much cricket has Dalmiya or Pawar or Modi played?

so is it your contention the above are administrators par excellence? if not, how will their mere presence butress the point you are making?

Dalmiya and Modi definitely are.

In any case, how does that matter to my point? FP's point was that it is surprising how More could make it to where he is without great playing credentials. If he cant or should not, then why should the likes of Dalmiya, Pawar or Modi or Srinivasan do? They havent even played or achieved as much as More as in cricket.

[feverpitch]

I don't see what playing ability has to do with administration. How much cricket has Dalmiya or Pawar or Modi played?

so is it your contention the above are administrators par excellence? if not, how will their mere presence butress the point you are making?

Dalmiya and Modi definitely are.

In any case, how does that matter to my point? FP's point was that it is surprising how More could make it to where he is without great playing credentials. If he cant or should not, then why should the likes of Dalmiya, Pawar or Modi or Srinivasan do? They havent even played or achieved as much as More as in cricket.

nope. my point was More made it to the India team with better ppl around, and as admin withe better ppl around too...

[keep-it-cool]

I don't see what playing ability has to do with administration. How much cricket has Dalmiya or Pawar or Modi played?

so is it your contention the above are administrators par excellence? if not, how will their mere presence butress the point you are making?

Dalmiya and Modi definitely are.

In any case, how does that matter to my point? FP's point was that it is surprising how More could make it to where he is without great playing credentials. If he cant or should not, then why should the likes of Dalmiya, Pawar or Modi or Srinivasan do? They havent even played or achieved as much as More as in cricket.

nope. my point was More made it to the India team with better ppl around, and as admin withe better ppl around too...

i dont remember who he was competing with as a player ...but as an admin, which better people did he leave behind? after all, not everyone is willing to get into admin

[WicketView]

I would point out that while Viswanath was a better wicket keeper, More did improve and in particular had a very good stint against our spin based attack. For a fair amount of time, he was the better than other contemporary international wicketkeepers led by Dujon and Healy.

[dextrous]

his batting was too atrocious to command a place in the team

clearly, either he's lucky or knows the right people..not just as a player but even after that

[WicketView]

his batting was too atrocious to command a place in the team

clearly, either he's lucky or knows the right people..not just as a player but even after that

At that point the disease of picking wicketkeepers for their batting ability had not taken the strong roots that it went on to take later. People still believed that the runs scored by wicketkeeper were a bonus, and he was primarily in the team for keeping. Of course, people were already thinking about it to some extent. 

[RicePlateReddy]

7 S Sharath: Tough not to get a single int'l.

one of many!!

Top of the heap! Bad timing I guess that his time coincided with the peak of the big 4, considering Khurasiya, Martin etc. played international games not too long after!

[RicePlateReddy]

I would point out that while Viswanath was a better wicket keeper, More did improve and in particular had a very good stint against our spin based attack. For a fair amount of time, he was the better than other contemporary international wicketkeepers led by Dujon and Healy.

Seriously? I don't remember More being in that league at all!

[RicePlateReddy]

dhruv deepak

But he never scored. 

[Cover Point]

dhruv deepak

But he never scored. 

except by himself

[WicketView]

I would point out that while Viswanath was a better wicket keeper, More did improve and in particular had a very good stint against our spin based attack. For a fair amount of time, he was the better than other contemporary international wicketkeepers led by Dujon and Healy.

Seriously? I don't remember More being in that league at all!

Seriously. And I am only talking about wicketkeeping and not batting. His stumpings were outstanding, with a few off the widish deliveries that the spinner would push in to foil an advancing batsman. This is rather difficult to pull off inspite of it being the batsman being completely beaten, simply because the distance from the stumps of the wicketkeeper when he is collecting it gives
the batsman ample time to correct his follies. Recall that he had to stand up to a spin based attack ... and I think all the spinners of that time are pretty good compared to the average quality today. Keeping to Hirwani during his debut, or Kumble in his initial days
was a major challenge. Something his best peers Dujon did not face. Healy of course, did keep to Warne later.
At the peak of his career, More probably demonstrated the adage that you do not hear about the a wicketkeeper if he is doing his job well. All of that said, there is no reason why an initially better wicket keeper should not have had the chance to improve instead of him.

[RicePlateReddy]

I would point out that while Viswanath was a better wicket keeper, More did improve and in particular had a very good stint against our spin based attack. For a fair amount of time, he was the better than other contemporary international wicketkeepers led by Dujon and Healy.

Seriously? I don't remember More being in that league at all!

Seriously. And I am only talking about wicketkeeping and not batting. His stumpings were outstanding, with a few off the widish deliveries that the spinner would push in to foil an advancing batsman. This is rather difficult to pull off inspite of it being the batsman being completely beaten, simply because the distance from the stumps of the wicketkeeper when he is collecting it gives
the batsman ample time to correct his follies. Recall that he had to stand up to a spin based attack ... and I think all the spinners of that time are pretty good compared to the average quality today. Keeping to Hirwani during his debut, or Kumble in his initial days
was a major challenge. Something his best peers Dujon did not face. Healy of course, did keep to Warne later.
At the peak of his career, More probably demonstrated the adage that you do not hear about the a wicketkeeper if he is doing his job well. All of that said, there is no reason why an initially better wicket keeper should not have had the chance to improve instead of him.

But I recollect him dropping quite a few that ought to have been held against fast bowlers. Dujon and Healy in the first part of his career didn't have that many opportunities to keep against effective spinners. So one can't judge them on that angle.

This was More dropping Gooch on 36 (when he went on to score a triple century).

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/N3GdQXWGZCg&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/N3GdQXWGZCg&rel=0</a>

[dhruvdeepak]

dhruv deepak

But he never scored. 

except by himself

gavaskar will tell you it doesnt matter how you score as long as the runs are on the board

[Cover Point]

dhruv deepak

But he never scored. 

except by himself

gavaskar will tell you it doesnt matter how you score as long as the runs are on the board

congratulations. You are officially the MASTER of your DOMAIN