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[flashpan]

For the next match we should have the courage to drop Harbhajan , the big mouth and one series wonder Ishanth . Give Mithun a chance , he cannot be worse then Ishanth. I ham sure we do not need any courage to drop the one test wonder Saha.

[LosingNow]

We have gone into this match with 3 proven batsmen.. GG (failed both innings), VS (failed once), and SRT(failed once). Vijay and Badri have shown promise ..but they are no match for Dravid and Laxman at this stage in their career.

Bowlers let us down big time!!

[12th_Man]

Importance of RD    .
The same pitch where Sharmaji and Khan saab toiled hard, Steyn and co. can make the pitch talk.
Anyway while i realise Ind is not well poised but sportsmen don't give up till it is really up.
I hope the players don't worry about too many things and just take the game hr by hr session by session. It is their home turf, just two days, who knows what is in store.
Having said that, You have to go back to selection commitee. Ask them about not having proper backups.

[12th_Man]

We have gone into this match with 3 proven batsmen.. GG (failed both innings), VS (failed once), and SRT(failed once). Vijay and Badri have shown promise ..but they are no match for Dravid and Laxman at this stage in their career.
Bowlers let us down big time!!

I had brought the topic back early on when saw the selection with no buffer bats.
However i think the duleep trophy did constrain selectors.
Issues:
1. Laxman: IMO selectors had the input from doctors and team about his healing and had to be kept in team. However where they proved to be dumbhead was not having another standby bat. While they called RS later on, but I think that was too late in game.DTrophy may have its role here.
2. Saha: I don't think selectors can be accused for having a backup keeper. However why he was selected over Karthik can be questioned, It is just unfortunate WS had to play as pure bat.
3. Additional backup batsmen: With RD out and Laxman injured, It is sheer stupidity not have bats covered if one or two get injured.

[poondu]

It was excellent spell of bowling from Steyn- Really enjoyed it. Wish it was against another team though.

This is a reality check for those comparing GG with Gavaskar. I know this is just 1 match;but I strongly believe GG would have struggled against the attacks that Gavaskar faced.

[Cernunnos]

It was excellent spell of bowling from Steyn- Really enjoyed it. Wish it was against another team though.

This is a reality check for those comparing GG with Gavaskar. I know this is just 1 match;but I strongly believe GG would have struggled against the attacks that Gavaskar faced.

Shouldn't we also re-evaluate Veeru's 317 which was against Steyn - maybe that was a brilliant match saving innings and not just flat track bullying? Also one can now fully appreciate how brilliant SG's 87 against Steyn & Morkel was on a faltering pitch in Kanpur!

I agree, this was the most awesome display of pace bowling I've seen in India since Richard Hadlee took a 6-fer in Mumbai in 1988 to win a test. Three cheers for a pace hero!

[12th_Man]

It was excellent spell of bowling from Steyn- Really enjoyed it.

Exactly... the lifeless pitch seem to get lively with these bowlers.

Wish it was against another team though.

This is a reality check for those comparing GG with Gavaskar. I know this is just 1 match;but I strongly believe GG would have struggled against the attacks that Gavaskar faced.

My be i have missed the posts/threads? But did we start the comparison or some articles in CI or other media ?

[Cover Point]

For the next match we should have the courage to drop Harbhajan , the big mouth and one series wonder Ishanth . Give Mithun a chance , he cannot be worse then Ishanth. I ham sure we do not need any courage to drop the one test wonder Saha.

Mithun sucked big time in the practice game.

[kban1]

We have gone into this match with 3 proven batsmen.. GG (failed both innings), VS (failed once), and SRT(failed once). Vijay and Badri have shown promise ..but they are no match for Dravid and Laxman at this stage in their career.

Bowlers let us down big time!!

More than the bowlers, the captain did

1) he took off Zaheer (right after he had taken 2 wickets) after just a 6 over spell, knowing fully well that Zaheer was his only spearhead.

2) Opened the bowling after lunch with Sehwag / Mishra and Ishant.

3) Lost confidence in HS too soon -- initial 8 overs where HS was struggling and then HS was banished for approx 30 overs. A spinner, especially your lead spinner needs far more of the captain;s confidence than what MSD displayed

4) Absolutely piss poor and pathetic fields for the batsmen. Despite seeing Kallis and Amla's propensity to shift outside off to play HS, he did not back up the bowler with a run saving leg side field. Other than the 2 close in fielders, every one else was guarding the boundary which means that the batsmen took a single and rotated strike (thereby disrupting the bowler and bowling plans) by just pushing the ball past the close in fielders. The same goes for Mishra

5) he couldnt figure out that on this wicket you succeed by bowling at the stumps. Other than Zaheer, no one did.

6) Zaheer and round the wicket bowling on the 2nd morning -- with a new ball in hand, and with overnight batsmen yet to get their eye in, Zaheer insisted (with no correction from captain) on bowling from round the wicket in the hope that he would get the rare ball that straightens. In the process he bowled 4.2 overs out of 5 round the wicket, sacrificng the left arm bowlers natural angle and advantage against "new" RHB, sacrificing his variation of the one coming in as well as the one leaving the batsman -- all for bowling wide of the off stump balls (from round the wicket) that batsmen left comfortably. In 26 balls, he was able to bowl the specialty ball just once, which the batsman missed.

And there went his first spell with a new ball against batsmen yet to get their eye in.

7) If you play a specialist keeper and you have got the chance to field first, why would you not let him keep, especially in light of the fact that you are playing a batsman short ? Wicket keeping is probably one skill that has a direct correlation with improvement in batting -- concentration, ball watching, vantage point, etc. Whats more, this was the ebst way to give  a nervous debutant (forked into the midst due to injuries and selectorial folly) a shot of confidence --have him excel in his speciality and have the confidence carry forward.

In addition to our fearless leader's numerous gaffes -- Why play Ishant ? Why not play Sreesanth ? or is SS injured ?

Ishant's bowling was atrocious -- the waste of the new ball, the number of balls the batsmen were able to leave was astounding.

Amit Mishra has still a long way to go. Even for  aleg spinner, it was ridiculous how many long hops, short balls, and full tosses he bowled.

And Harbhajan will never learn -- the habit of either bowling middle leg or consistently bowling wide outside off is inexcusable. And whatever happened to the doosra ? With batsman shuffling outside off to play the off spinner, that was the time for the doosra. But then of course, you can only try variations if you can set a batsman up -- given the captain's great field placings and singles all round, how can a bowler even try that ?

[kban1]

Hats off to Steyn though

Not since Marshall / holding and Hadlee have we seen a bowler bowl this well on Indian soil --this devastating and destructive.

[sudzz]

For the next match we should have the courage to drop Harbhajan , the big mouth and one series wonder Ishanth . Give Mithun a chance , he cannot be worse then Ishanth. I ham sure we do not need any courage to drop the one test wonder Saha.

Positively the most bizzare post I have ever seen....

but then again you admit that you "ham"...

[poondu]

It was excellent spell of bowling from Steyn- Really enjoyed it.

Exactly... the lifeless pitch seem to get lively with these bowlers.

Wish it was against another team though.

This is a reality check for those comparing GG with Gavaskar. I know this is just 1 match;but I strongly believe GG would have struggled against the attacks that Gavaskar faced.

My be i have missed the posts/threads? But did we start the comparison or some articles in CI or other media ?

I am not sure who started it, but someone did compare..

[kban1]

It was excellent spell of bowling from Steyn- Really enjoyed it.

Exactly... the lifeless pitch seem to get lively with these bowlers.

Wish it was against another team though.

This is a reality check for those comparing GG with Gavaskar. I know this is just 1 match;but I strongly believe GG would have struggled against the attacks that Gavaskar faced.

My be i have missed the posts/threads? But did we start the comparison or some articles in CI or other media ?

I am not sure who started it, but someone did compare..

Tilal did.

[Cover Point]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

[Blwe_torch]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

As usual, using your hind- sight while posting. This is not about Bengalis or any other region.
I cannot be harsh on Saha........................Gundapppa Viswanath too started his Test career with a duck in his first innings. Saha too deserves a good outing, otherwise, he too will be lost amongst those....whose career couldn't blossom due to the selectors short-sightedness.

[Cernunnos]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

[Blwe_torch]

this is all abt loose captaincy...unfortunately

[12th_Man]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.
IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.
When we started most including me thought AM and HS would be more effective than ZAK+IS considering SAF record against spin and Chawla taking 5fer in the warm up game.
MSD has kept against these bowlers  for some time and putting Saha with gloves with MSD still around was risky  IMO.

[Cernunnos]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.

Do we know that his average would not have been even better if he played as a pure bat? Giving Sanga's example I would surmise he would do better.

IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.

There was an injury to Laxman. We needed a batsman - that batsman would be MSD.

When we started most including me thought AM and HS would be more effective than ZAK+IS considering SAF record against spin and Chawla taking 5fer in the warm up game.
MSD has kept against these bowlers  for some time and putting Saha with gloves with MSD still around was risky  IMO.

Fair point. On the other hand, they are all professionals and expected to do their job at any given time. I am working under the assumption that WS >= keeper than Dhoni.

[gouravk]

why saha was played at all is the bigger question

[12th_Man]

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.

Do we know that his average would not have been even better if he played as a pure bat? Giving Sanga's example I would surmise he would do better.

And that is the point, We do not know for sure that MSD would perform better.
Let me add this is a very important series unlike the BD series we had. Ind asked SA to play these test matches shrinking the ODI's. Team that wins series retain top spot.
Sanga increasing his avg by focussing more on batting after giving up gloves, necessarily would not translate in MSD giving his gloves to a WK who just a night before wasn't sure he may have to keep in game.
I have no issues if this is handled as process rather then a forced decision. If MSD has to play as pure bat, in past(BD series) he should have started this process. I am afraid what would have happened if Saha missed a stumping or catch  and MSD still failed ?
Sangakkara in my books is far more accomplished batsman with different style than MSD even when he was keeper.
MSD's batting style seem to evolve from street playing rather the cricket coaching manuals.Anyway the point being, we do not know one way or the other if MSD will increase his avg as pure bat. This also should be a planned process rather split second decision.

IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.

There was an injury to Laxman. We needed a batsman - that batsman would be MSD.

Not too sure what you mean here-  MSD was anyway in team and not because of Laxmans injury.
Rohit was asked to cover for MSD. Rohits last minute injury got Saha in.

If the point is - MSD should have never kept in the series to start with:
I have no issues with this one. As i said above- Give the confidence to Saha, you are going to keep in series, Let him get accimilated to bowlers he has to keep - introduce him . I am fine with this approach

When we started most including me thought AM and HS would be more effective than ZAK+IS considering SAF record against spin and Chawla taking 5fer in the warm up game.
MSD has kept against these bowlers  for some time and putting Saha with gloves with MSD still around was risky  IMO.

Fair point. On the other hand, they are all professionals and expected to do their job at any given time. I am working under the assumption that WS >= keeper than Dhoni.

Again these can be debated who among MSD,PP,DK,WS is the best keeper. But even keeping the assumption WS is a better keeper than MSD and is professional player ready to pick the gloves anytime against any bowler, my point still harping on same lines i have been saying above, it was a risky proposition unless WC was given the confidence and kept against team bowlers. However if MSD feels the need any time, he can turn it to Saha considering he was/is getting tired.

To surmise: If we work with assumption WS>= keeper than MSD for current team bowlers on the day1 of test(not generic but specific) - There is no reason MSD should have kept.
My point was with all facts taken including late iunduction of Saha, MSD should have kept for the inngs.
   

[RicePlateReddy]

7) If you play a specialist keeper and you have got the chance to field first, why would you not let him keep, especially in light of the fact that you are playing a batsman short ? Wicket keeping is probably one skill that has a direct correlation with improvement in batting -- concentration, ball watching, vantage point, etc. Whats more, this was the ebst way to give  a nervous debutant (forked into the midst due to injuries and selectorial folly) a shot of confidence --have him excel in his speciality and have the confidence carry forward.

Absolutely! Dhoni could have truly demonstrated some leadership by assuming the mantle of a regular batsman and focussing on that, apart from the captaincy. Moreover, he could have done this mid-innings too, when it was clear that we were up against a mighty wall.

In addition to our fearless leader's numerous gaffes -- Why play Ishant ? Why not play Sreesanth ? or is SS injured ?

Yes, I believe Sreesanth too was injured.

[Cernunnos]

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.

Do we know that his average would not have been even better if he played as a pure bat? Giving Sanga's example I would surmise he would do better.

And that is the point, We do not know for sure that MSD would perform better.
Let me add this is a very important series unlike the BD series we had. Ind asked SA to play these test matches shrinking the ODI's. Team that wins series retain top spot.
Sanga increasing his avg by focussing more on batting after giving up gloves, necessarily would not translate in MSD giving his gloves to a WK who just a night before wasn't sure he may have to keep in game.
I have no issues if this is handled as process rather then a forced decision. If MSD has to play as pure bat, in past(BD series) he should have started this process. I am afraid what would have happened if Saha missed a stumping or catch  and MSD still failed ?
Sangakkara in my books is far more accomplished batsman with different style than MSD even when he was keeper.
MSD's batting style seem to evolve from street playing rather the cricket coaching manuals.Anyway the point being, we do not know one way or the other if MSD will increase his avg as pure bat. This also should be a planned process rather split second decision.

IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.

There was an injury to Laxman. We needed a batsman - that batsman would be MSD.

Not too sure what you mean here-  MSD was anyway in team and not because of Laxmans injury.
Rohit was asked to cover for MSD. Rohits last minute injury got Saha in.

What I mean is of the two scenarios:

1. MSD replaces VVS, WS replaces MSD as keeper
2. WS replaces VVS

scenario 1 is the more natural one as the replacements are credible replacements,
while scenario 2 is a ludicrous situation as WS is nowhere comparable to VVS, and by going with scenario 2 we have become a laughing stock and given a huge boost to the opposition.

Also, the whole idea of selecting WS in the squad seems to be that they wanted to revert to the pure keeper as against the batsman-keeper (I think the consensus is that WS is the best pure keeper in the country.) So if we ever had to play WS, it had to be only as keeper. Now if they were shy of trying out a pure keeper, they should have selected another semi-keeper like PP and not bothered with Saha in the first place.
 

[WicketView]

Well, exactly how good is WS behind the stumps? I recall someone bringing up the point that he was  very good behind the stumps and in batting (suddz,kop... not sure?), but I also read in a thread that PP was now a good wicket keeper, and then we all saw how much he had improved from his 2004 days.

so, it is important to first examine how good he is. Have people seen him keeping or batting?

[dextrous]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

And, what, Dhoni is a makeshift keeper? I'm not sure why Saha, who is mainly here due to his batting exploits in the IPL, rather than his superior keeping, is somehow considered better than Dhoni.

[12th_Man]

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.

Do we know that his average would not have been even better if he played as a pure bat? Giving Sanga's example I would surmise he would do better.

And that is the point, We do not know for sure that MSD would perform better.
Let me add this is a very important series unlike the BD series we had. Ind asked SA to play these test matches shrinking the ODI's. Team that wins series retain top spot.
Sanga increasing his avg by focussing more on batting after giving up gloves, necessarily would not translate in MSD giving his gloves to a WK who just a night before wasn't sure he may have to keep in game.
I have no issues if this is handled as process rather then a forced decision. If MSD has to play as pure bat, in past(BD series) he should have started this process. I am afraid what would have happened if Saha missed a stumping or catch  and MSD still failed ?
Sangakkara in my books is far more accomplished batsman with different style than MSD even when he was keeper.
MSD's batting style seem to evolve from street playing rather the cricket coaching manuals.Anyway the point being, we do not know one way or the other if MSD will increase his avg as pure bat. This also should be a planned process rather split second decision.

IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.

There was an injury to Laxman. We needed a batsman - that batsman would be MSD.

Not too sure what you mean here-  MSD was anyway in team and not because of Laxmans injury.
Rohit was asked to cover for MSD. Rohits last minute injury got Saha in.

What I mean is of the two scenarios:

1. MSD replaces VVS, WS replaces MSD as keeper
2. WS replaces VVS

scenario 1 is the more natural one as the replacements are credible replacements,
while scenario 2 is a ludicrous situation as WS is nowhere comparable to VVS, and by going with scenario 2 we have become a laughing stock and given a huge boost to the opposition.

Also, the whole idea of selecting WS in the squad seems to be that they wanted to revert to the pure keeper as against the batsman-keeper (I think the consensus is that WS is the best pure keeper in the country.) So if we ever had to play WS, it had to be only as keeper. Now if they were shy of trying out a pure keeper, they should have selected another semi-keeper like PP and not bothered with Saha in the first place.

If all agree that WS is the best keeper in the country and can keep better than MSD in this match. Then I guess the only possible argument left is MSD's dictat.

[dextrous]

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.

Do we know that his average would not have been even better if he played as a pure bat? Giving Sanga's example I would surmise he would do better.

And that is the point, We do not know for sure that MSD would perform better.
Let me add this is a very important series unlike the BD series we had. Ind asked SA to play these test matches shrinking the ODI's. Team that wins series retain top spot.
Sanga increasing his avg by focussing more on batting after giving up gloves, necessarily would not translate in MSD giving his gloves to a WK who just a night before wasn't sure he may have to keep in game.
I have no issues if this is handled as process rather then a forced decision. If MSD has to play as pure bat, in past(BD series) he should have started this process. I am afraid what would have happened if Saha missed a stumping or catch  and MSD still failed ?
Sangakkara in my books is far more accomplished batsman with different style than MSD even when he was keeper.
MSD's batting style seem to evolve from street playing rather the cricket coaching manuals.Anyway the point being, we do not know one way or the other if MSD will increase his avg as pure bat. This also should be a planned process rather split second decision.

IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.

There was an injury to Laxman. We needed a batsman - that batsman would be MSD.

Not too sure what you mean here-  MSD was anyway in team and not because of Laxmans injury.
Rohit was asked to cover for MSD. Rohits last minute injury got Saha in.

What I mean is of the two scenarios:

1. MSD replaces VVS, WS replaces MSD as keeper
2. WS replaces VVS

scenario 1 is the more natural one as the replacements are credible replacements,
while scenario 2 is a ludicrous situation as WS is nowhere comparable to VVS, and by going with scenario 2 we have become a laughing stock and given a huge boost to the opposition.

Also, the whole idea of selecting WS in the squad seems to be that they wanted to revert to the pure keeper as against the batsman-keeper (I think the consensus is that WS is the best pure keeper in the country.) So if we ever had to play WS, it had to be only as keeper. Now if they were shy of trying out a pure keeper, they should have selected another semi-keeper like PP and not bothered with Saha in the first place.

If all agree that WS is the best keeper in the country and can keep better than MSD in this match. Then I guess the only possible argument left is MSD's dictat.

Except I doubt most forum members have actually seen Saha keep considering he didn't even keep for KKR where McCullum and even van Wyk were preferred

[kban1]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

And, what, Dhoni is a makeshift keeper? I'm not sure why Saha, who is mainly here due to his batting exploits in the IPL, rather than his superior keeping, is somehow considered better than Dhoni.

Sorry, he just looks a better keeper than Dhoni. from the limited opportunities (admittedly small sample size), he looks a better keeper than Dhoni.

[Cernunnos]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

And, what, Dhoni is a makeshift keeper? I'm not sure why Saha, who is mainly here due to his batting exploits in the IPL, rather than his superior keeping, is somehow considered better than Dhoni.

Dhoni is definitely a better keeper than the ones in the past - but in my book he is a batsman-keeper (like Gilly), as opposed to someone like Healey who was a keeper-batsman.

I don't follow IPL. I am going by what SG had said about Saha after watching him in FC cricket, and if there is anyone who has an eye for talent in Indian cricket, it is SG.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wriddhiman-saha-next-bengal-star-ganguly/425575/2

Again, I am not saying Saha should have been selected. I'm saying that once he is there, play him according to his strength, which certainly is not batting.

[kban1]

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.

Do we know that his average would not have been even better if he played as a pure bat? Giving Sanga's example I would surmise he would do better.

And that is the point, We do not know for sure that MSD would perform better.
Let me add this is a very important series unlike the BD series we had. Ind asked SA to play these test matches shrinking the ODI's. Team that wins series retain top spot.
Sanga increasing his avg by focussing more on batting after giving up gloves, necessarily would not translate in MSD giving his gloves to a WK who just a night before wasn't sure he may have to keep in game.
I have no issues if this is handled as process rather then a forced decision. If MSD has to play as pure bat, in past(BD series) he should have started this process. I am afraid what would have happened if Saha missed a stumping or catch  and MSD still failed ?
Sangakkara in my books is far more accomplished batsman with different style than MSD even when he was keeper.
MSD's batting style seem to evolve from street playing rather the cricket coaching manuals.Anyway the point being, we do not know one way or the other if MSD will increase his avg as pure bat. This also should be a planned process rather split second decision.

IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.

There was an injury to Laxman. We needed a batsman - that batsman would be MSD.

Not too sure what you mean here-  MSD was anyway in team and not because of Laxmans injury.
Rohit was asked to cover for MSD. Rohits last minute injury got Saha in.

What I mean is of the two scenarios:

1. MSD replaces VVS, WS replaces MSD as keeper
2. WS replaces VVS

scenario 1 is the more natural one as the replacements are credible replacements,
while scenario 2 is a ludicrous situation as WS is nowhere comparable to VVS, and by going with scenario 2 we have become a laughing stock and given a huge boost to the opposition.

Also, the whole idea of selecting WS in the squad seems to be that they wanted to revert to the pure keeper as against the batsman-keeper (I think the consensus is that WS is the best pure keeper in the country.) So if we ever had to play WS, it had to be only as keeper. Now if they were shy of trying out a pure keeper, they should have selected another semi-keeper like PP and not bothered with Saha in the first place.

If all agree that WS is the best keeper in the country and can keep better than MSD in this match. Then I guess the only possible argument left is MSD's dictat.

Except I doubt most forum members have actually seen Saha keep considering he didn't even keep for KKR where McCullum and even van Wyk were preferred

mCCullum actually didnt keep in some of the matches in IPL II.

And Saha plyed as a WK in IPL 1 too.

So, some of us had opportunities to see Saha keep. As a pure wicket keeper (not Wk-batsman), he looked more natural and tidy than MSD.

[dextrous]

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.

Do we know that his average would not have been even better if he played as a pure bat? Giving Sanga's example I would surmise he would do better.

And that is the point, We do not know for sure that MSD would perform better.
Let me add this is a very important series unlike the BD series we had. Ind asked SA to play these test matches shrinking the ODI's. Team that wins series retain top spot.
Sanga increasing his avg by focussing more on batting after giving up gloves, necessarily would not translate in MSD giving his gloves to a WK who just a night before wasn't sure he may have to keep in game.
I have no issues if this is handled as process rather then a forced decision. If MSD has to play as pure bat, in past(BD series) he should have started this process. I am afraid what would have happened if Saha missed a stumping or catch  and MSD still failed ?
Sangakkara in my books is far more accomplished batsman with different style than MSD even when he was keeper.
MSD's batting style seem to evolve from street playing rather the cricket coaching manuals.Anyway the point being, we do not know one way or the other if MSD will increase his avg as pure bat. This also should be a planned process rather split second decision.

IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.

There was an injury to Laxman. We needed a batsman - that batsman would be MSD.

Not too sure what you mean here-  MSD was anyway in team and not because of Laxmans injury.
Rohit was asked to cover for MSD. Rohits last minute injury got Saha in.

What I mean is of the two scenarios:

1. MSD replaces VVS, WS replaces MSD as keeper
2. WS replaces VVS

scenario 1 is the more natural one as the replacements are credible replacements,
while scenario 2 is a ludicrous situation as WS is nowhere comparable to VVS, and by going with scenario 2 we have become a laughing stock and given a huge boost to the opposition.

Also, the whole idea of selecting WS in the squad seems to be that they wanted to revert to the pure keeper as against the batsman-keeper (I think the consensus is that WS is the best pure keeper in the country.) So if we ever had to play WS, it had to be only as keeper. Now if they were shy of trying out a pure keeper, they should have selected another semi-keeper like PP and not bothered with Saha in the first place.

If all agree that WS is the best keeper in the country and can keep better than MSD in this match. Then I guess the only possible argument left is MSD's dictat.

Except I doubt most forum members have actually seen Saha keep considering he didn't even keep for KKR where McCullum and even van Wyk were preferred

mCCullum actually didnt keep in some of the matches in IPL II.

And Saha plyed as a WK in IPL 1 too.

So, some of us had opportunities to see Saha keep. As a pure wicket keeper (not Wk-batsman), he looked more natural and tidy than MSD.

Disagree. While MSD's build is not typical of past Indian keepers, and he may not appear natural, he's very effective and rarely drops easy catches which used to happen a lot with all the child prodigies that played for India after Mongia/Karim. Saha, may or may not be a better keeper, but I don't see that as an absolute. The one line of reasoning I can agree with is tha he should ahve asked Saha to keep so he could focus on his batting--I can see that. Although, one could argue that Dhoni, who is so used to keeping, could be a liability on the field.

[dextrous]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

And, what, Dhoni is a makeshift keeper? I'm not sure why Saha, who is mainly here due to his batting exploits in the IPL, rather than his superior keeping, is somehow considered better than Dhoni.

Dhoni is definitely a better keeper than the ones in the past - but in my book he is a batsman-keeper (like Gilly), as opposed to someone like Healey who was a keeper-batsman.

I don't follow IPL. I am going by what SG had said about Saha after watching him in FC cricket, and if there is anyone who has an eye for talent in Indian cricket, it is SG.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wriddhiman-saha-next-bengal-star-ganguly/425575/2

Again, I am not saying Saha should have been selected. I'm saying that once he is there, play him according to his strength, which certainly is not batting.

Sure, I agree with you that Saha's strength is keeping, but the question that Dhoni has to analyze (with Kirsten) is that is Saha, on debut against SA, going to turn out to be a better keeper than Dhoni? If one has to look at the team's collective goal, then it makes sense to have the best keeper keep.

[Cernunnos]

BCCI needs to really do a better job of making pitches. I mean with all the money they have instead of using it for their own selfish parties, why not make two pitches for the game. Allow India to bat on a featherbed and give SA a different pitch to bat on ... one that maybe a bit of a crumbler.

By the way, seriously, hope the Bengalis are happy after spoiling Saha's career! This is what happens when you try to play politics. Things can backfire.

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

And, what, Dhoni is a makeshift keeper? I'm not sure why Saha, who is mainly here due to his batting exploits in the IPL, rather than his superior keeping, is somehow considered better than Dhoni.

Dhoni is definitely a better keeper than the ones in the past - but in my book he is a batsman-keeper (like Gilly), as opposed to someone like Healey who was a keeper-batsman.

I don't follow IPL. I am going by what SG had said about Saha after watching him in FC cricket, and if there is anyone who has an eye for talent in Indian cricket, it is SG.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wriddhiman-saha-next-bengal-star-ganguly/425575/2

Again, I am not saying Saha should have been selected. I'm saying that once he is there, play him according to his strength, which certainly is not batting.

Sure, I agree with you that Saha's strength is keeping, but the question that Dhoni has to analyze (with Kirsten) is that is Saha, on debut against SA, going to turn out to be a better keeper than Dhoni? If one has to look at the team's collective goal, then it makes sense to have the best keeper keep.

I honestly don't feel he would have been worse. Moreover, you have to factor that MSD had to rest his back as well due to which he missed a test. As kban pointed out, there were major gaffes in the captaincy, which also got affected by his having to handle so many roles.

[kban1]

Disagree. While MSD's build is not typical of past Indian keepers, and he may not appear natural, he's very effective and rarely drops easy catches which used to happen a lot with all the child prodigies that played for India after Mongia/Karim. Saha, may or may not be a better keeper, but I don't see that as an absolute.

I said tidy as in tidy glovework. MSD's glovework is not really tidy, and yes, he does drop a few catches -- you cant say he doesnt drop them.  he is def ahead of PP and at this point, KKD. The equation with WS is not as easy.

The one line of reasoning I can agree with is tha he should ahve asked Saha to keep so he could focus on his batting--I can see that. Although, one could argue that Dhoni, who is so used to keeping, could be a liability on the field.

No, Dhoni wouldnt be a liability on the field --he is the strongest and fastest of the Indian players.

[12th_Man]

Why was Saha played as a specialist batsman and not a specialist keeper? As a result of this foolishness, Dhoni got out early in a tired looking fashion. Sanga averages 74 when he is not keeping, and 40 when he is keeping. Dhoni had no business wearing the gloves for 2 long days with a thin batting line up. To add to that, I can recall at least one edge that flew between Dhoni and first slip which a specialist keeper better than Dhoni (which I presume Saha is) might have snapped.

I am in favor of MSD keeping in this match. MSD has been keeping and batting since some time continuing to keep a good avg.

Do we know that his average would not have been even better if he played as a pure bat? Giving Sanga's example I would surmise he would do better.

And that is the point, We do not know for sure that MSD would perform better.
Let me add this is a very important series unlike the BD series we had. Ind asked SA to play these test matches shrinking the ODI's. Team that wins series retain top spot.
Sanga increasing his avg by focussing more on batting after giving up gloves, necessarily would not translate in MSD giving his gloves to a WK who just a night before wasn't sure he may have to keep in game.
I have no issues if this is handled as process rather then a forced decision. If MSD has to play as pure bat, in past(BD series) he should have started this process. I am afraid what would have happened if Saha missed a stumping or catch  and MSD still failed ?
Sangakkara in my books is far more accomplished batsman with different style than MSD even when he was keeper.
MSD's batting style seem to evolve from street playing rather the cricket coaching manuals.Anyway the point being, we do not know one way or the other if MSD will increase his avg as pure bat. This also should be a planned process rather split second decision.

IMO having WS keep in a important match against SAF was too risky unless MSD was injured.

There was an injury to Laxman. We needed a batsman - that batsman would be MSD.

Not too sure what you mean here-  MSD was anyway in team and not because of Laxmans injury.
Rohit was asked to cover for MSD. Rohits last minute injury got Saha in.

What I mean is of the two scenarios:

1. MSD replaces VVS, WS replaces MSD as keeper
2. WS replaces VVS

scenario 1 is the more natural one as the replacements are credible replacements,
while scenario 2 is a ludicrous situation as WS is nowhere comparable to VVS, and by going with scenario 2 we have become a laughing stock and given a huge boost to the opposition.

Also, the whole idea of selecting WS in the squad seems to be that they wanted to revert to the pure keeper as against the batsman-keeper (I think the consensus is that WS is the best pure keeper in the country.) So if we ever had to play WS, it had to be only as keeper. Now if they were shy of trying out a pure keeper, they should have selected another semi-keeper like PP and not bothered with Saha in the first place.

If all agree that WS is the best keeper in the country and can keep better than MSD in this match. Then I guess the only possible argument left is MSD's dictat.

Except I doubt most forum members have actually seen Saha keep considering he didn't even keep for KKR where McCullum and even van Wyk were preferred

And that is why i was debating the issue. There is no black and white who's better.
Please also consider, we are comparing him against a WK who has been keeping at international level for few years now against the same attack that was in this match, and just faced with a situation last minute we say MSD should not have kept.
There have been quite few times DK and MSD have played together, with consensus being DK was better keeper than MSD, Still MSD has kept. When DK was given the gloves in a match, he had his share of misses.
Even considering that WS as better Keeper (in generic terms- not specific to this test):
The point i was emphasizing is  Saha was playing in MSD's team not the other way round. Had MSD been captaining the Bengal Ranji team(with similar scenario) where Saha keeps regularly for his bowlers, This would have been a no brainer. Saha had to keep in the game.

So there is more that comes into play then a pure keeper aspect here. That is the long term coordination and understing with bowlers, their lengths, their turns mid over unspoken communications e.g. pointing to Mishra to bowl on leg side etc..

Also i don't subscribe to view that Saha was selected in team(XV) to keep wickets.
I think he was selected to be given a confidence that he was in scheme of things and also to assimilate with the seniors.
This may also have been message to DK to shape up, who's dropping still has me puzzled.
If Saha was selected in team to keep wickets preferred over MSD, that would put a rest to all discussions, I am afraid it wasn't so.

[RicePlateReddy]

And, what, Dhoni is a makeshift keeper? I'm not sure why Saha, who is mainly here due to his batting exploits in the IPL, rather than his superior keeping, is somehow considered better than Dhoni.

Dhoni might well be the better keeper. He might not be either - no way to definitely tell until Saha has got a look in.

The point is two fold:
* Saha is not a poor keeper from all indications. He has made it to the elite rung of keepers largely on merit, even if the exact timing of his elevation is a little surprising.

* Given the selection woes and the compulsion to play Saha, Dhoni is foolish to not make him pad up. This is not an argument about the best keeper. It is about having two keepers in the team, one who is an established, strong batsman who is also captain and secure, and one who is a debutant.  There is extremely low risk in allowing the possibly inferior wicketkeeper who also happens to be a debutant in a difficult situation (not of his creation) to wicket-keep!

As the adage goes, when life gives you a lemon, make lemonade. Not that Saha is a lemon! Dhoni instead chose to make lime pickle and eat it with curd and rice (ask Badri). He has really integrated well with the Chennai Super Kings.

[12th_Man]

  Can make a pickle out of lemon if lemonade is available.

Don't think MSD was foolish not to pad him in the beginning.
Only different thing preferred would have been  handing gloves to Saha somewhere in the middle of inngs when Indian team was completely defensive and the idea was just to stop the run flow.
Most of the captains would have taken a similar decision to start with their trial and tested keeper unless the other keeper was somebody like DK who has kept against the same team bowler(s) in recent past.
I also do not agree it was a low risk, it became low risk only when we were on backfoot.
As mentioned earlier, AM and HS were supposed to be two key bowlers when we started, MSD having kept against these gave him a better edge to wear the gloves.

[WicketView]

One must ask why tests are played on such a terrible ground. The pitch is bad, the outfield is bad and of course there is no one to watch the game.

[dextrous]

One must ask why tests are played on such a terrible ground. The pitch is bad, the outfield is bad and of course there is no one to watch the game.

still, no excuse for india's performance.

[WicketView]

One must ask why tests are played on such a terrible ground. The pitch is bad, the outfield is bad and of course there is no one to watch the game.

still, no excuse for india's performance.

Oh the comment had nothing to do with excuses .... it was simply about the suitability of venues. And about the pitch ... I was talking about the point near the bowler's crease where they seem to have trouble with the landing.