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[LosingNow]

Obummer... Republican wins MA senate seat!

All izzz well (in the United States).

[Cover Point]

country going down the drain again.

Not even a year passed after the disaster that was Bush and people have already forgotten. I guess Fox News and the republican PR has managed to dupe the public.

First the republicans have killed any semblance of a real Health Care reform and now they have done this

[LosingNow]

Ha ha ha.. Fox news and the republican PR duped the public into voting against a democrat in the bluest of blue states!! You are really hilarious.

Before pointing fingers at others, look at the four pointing at ..... 

[dextrous]

actually it isn't a typical blue state. just look at the last 5 governors, most of them were republicans. boston isn't exactly a hippie paradise.

[Flamingo]

First the republicans have killed any semblance of a real Health Care reform and now they have done this

out of interest, would you prefer a national health system like over here?

[Cover Point]

First the republicans have killed any semblance of a real Health Care reform and now they have done this

out of interest, would you prefer a national health system like over here?

absolutely YES!

I would accept even one like in Canada. I am willing to have WN and SSL pay a few more taxes for that if needed

and WN sir ... Mass is not a blue state. Its full of rich bankers and those harvard types! You know Aapke friends

[ramshorns]

As long as Obama wins another term that is all it matters.  We do not want the (R)acist party to take over so soon.  That is all there is to know American politics.  See you again in this space in about 3 years to celebrate the beginning of another term for Mr.Barack.

[ruchir]

As long as Obama wins another term that is all it matters.  We do not want the (R)acist party to take over so soon.  That is all there is to know American politics.  See you again in this space in about 3 years to celebrate the beginning of another term for Mr.Barack.

 

Mr. O campaigned in VA, the Dem gubernatorial contender lost.

Mr. O campaigned in NJ, the Dem gubernatorial contender lost.

Mr. O campaigned in MA, the Dem senetorial contender lost the senate seat held by Dems for last 30+ years.

Oh, did I forget to say that Mr. O went to bid for Olympics and Chicago was the first city to be voted out?

In short, Mr. O has become toxic IMO. It would be prudent to open your eyes and see what majority of america thinks about him and his policies:
1. Obamacare
2. Cap &  Trade
3. EPA declaring CO2 a danger to humans
4. H1N1 handling
5. Buying senate votes for Obamacare (like it is India)
6. Saying that if Stimulus is passed unemployment will not go above 8.5% and unemployment going to 10.2% AFTER stimulus is passed
7. Giving fake numbers of jobs saved or created by stimulus. Heck, his administration was quoting jobs created/saved in cities that don't even exist!!!
8. Spending tax dollars on trying terrorists in domestic courts, rather than military tribunals
9. and now declaring that federal govt will decide how much can a bank grow?

Please, please... look at his performance, not his personality.

[ruchir]

First the republicans have killed any semblance of a real Health Care reform and now they have done this

out of interest, would you prefer a national health system like over here?

absolutely YES!

I would accept even one like in Canada. I am willing to have WN and SSL pay a few more taxes for that if needed

and WN sir ... Mass is not a blue state. Its full of rich bankers and those harvard types! You know Aapke friends

Out of curosity, Aunty --

Do you know that Senate version of Obamacare bill cuts $500 billion from Medicare and forces States to take over a big part of this amount. So, 500 billion over 10 years is $50 billion cut per year. For 50 states it is like $1 billion per state per year. Of course, more populous states will have to bear more amount than less populous states. This, when no state in US is running on a balanced budget. Where will the states find money to fund their part of Medicare except by raising all kind of taxes?

So, imagine a state like CA. It is already $26 billion in deficit. Now it gets to bear, say, $3 billion of the cut Medicare funds. Where will it get these funds from? Why will CA doctors continue to honor Medicare if their reimbursements are going to go down drastically? Already a lot of doctors are refusing Medicare. So, the old are going to be worst affected by Obamacare. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I can keep going at it.


MA is a solid blue state when it comes to national elections. You should differentiate between local and national elections. Sure, MA has elected many Rep governors, but they have been elected based on what they promise to do for MA. However, MA has not elected a whole lot of Republican Senators or Representatives in a long long time. Senators and Representatives play a national role, because they vote on national policy. It is here that MA becomes a solid solid blue state.

[dextrous]

Ruchir,
Long time..were you out campaigning against obama?

[Cover Point]

First the republicans have killed any semblance of a real Health Care reform and now they have done this

out of interest, would you prefer a national health system like over here?

absolutely YES!

I would accept even one like in Canada. I am willing to have WN and SSL pay a few more taxes for that if needed

and WN sir ... Mass is not a blue state. Its full of rich bankers and those harvard types! You know Aapke friends

Out of curosity, Aunty --

Do you know that Senate version of Obamacare bill cuts $500 billion from Medicare and forces States to take over a big part of this amount. So, 500 billion over 10 years is $50 billion cut per year. For 50 states it is like $1 billion per state per year. Of course, more populous states will have to bear more amount than less populous states. This, when no state in US is running on a balanced budget. Where will the states find money to fund their part of Medicare except by raising all kind of taxes?

So, imagine a state like CA. It is already $26 billion in deficit. Now it gets to bear, say, $3 billion of the cut Medicare funds. Where will it get these funds from? Why will CA doctors continue to honor Medicare if their reimbursements are going to go down drastically? Already a lot of doctors are refusing Medicare. So, the old are going to be worst affected by Obamacare. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I can keep going at it.


MA is a solid blue state when it comes to national elections. You should differentiate between local and national elections. Sure, MA has elected many Rep governors, but they have been elected based on what they promise to do for MA. However, MA has not elected a whole lot of Republican Senators or Representatives in a long long time. Senators and Representatives play a national role, because they vote on national policy. It is here that MA becomes a solid solid blue state.

uncle ji, i never said the current version of the bill will do anything but add to the cost. the republicans made sure of that .... almost 9 months ago! the real reform (cuts in medicare, prescriptions etc and most importantly the govt option) have already been removed by these republicans representing their respective corporations/associations and now what is left is window dressing.

The amount of waste and spending that currently goes on in the medical system cant be sustained. But for me to go into details would require me to have a bottle of rum in my hand and its too damn early in the morning. needless to say the rich have a reason to keep the status quo. We are the number #1 spender in HC in the world. We are ranked #36 in the world in care (after Cuba). All that spending does nothing for us except make the insurance companies richer and the AMA stronger. Health Care is already 1/6th of our economy. It will soon be even bigger. Did you know that YOU (assuming you are an average american) pay 18K a year in health care cost. Now do you really think YOU spend that much? Something has to change.

I am not happy with the change that is happening. Yes the bill that is going through has already been shorn of all the effective things thanks to your friends in washington. BUT SOMETHING has to happen. At this time I will take whatever that something is. It would atleast be a move in the right direction.

Ganguly Laxman sucks

[LosingNow]

the republicans made sure of that .... almost 9 months ago! the real reform (cuts in medicare, prescriptions etc and most importantly the govt option) have already been removed by these republicans representing their respective corporations/associations and now what is left is window dressing.

Hey, you missed something - the republicans forced John Edwards to have an affair, make a baby, not admit to the affair, not admit to the baby, then admit to the affair, then admit to being the father of the baby.

[ruchir]

uncle ji, i never said the current version of the bill will do anything but add to the cost. the republicans made sure of that .... almost 9 months ago! the real reform (cuts in medicare, prescriptions etc and most importantly the govt option) have already been removed by these republicans representing their respective corporations/associations and now what is left is window dressing.

Don't put absolutely any blame on Republicans for anything to do with Obamacare.

Dems had 60 votes in senate and 60% majority in house. If they wanted, they could have passed Obamacare alone, but they didn't. Think why. Because some wise Dems were not so sure that Obamacare would help any american at all.

You think cut in Medicare is real reform? Tell me how. Tell me how cutting $500 billion from Medicare - the plan that subsidizes health coverage for 65 yr old and above is real reform. Tell me how cutting benefits for retired senior citizens is real reform. This is ridiculous.

Tell me what was Obamacare doing to reduce cost of prescription drugs? Do you know any specifics? If you do, please educate me.

Tell me how govt option would have helped ALL people. I can discuss drawbacks of govt option with you in detail if you want to.

Republicans deliberately kept themselves out of picture for the entire duration of the Obamacare drama, so they can not be blamed for absolutely anything. Obamacare has gone down because Dems themselves were not sure that it would work.

By the way, can you explain why Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid were hiding this bill from public? Can you tell me why C-Span was kept out of the discussion that Dems were having among themselves when Obama had shouted from rooftops during campaign that anything to do with healthcare will be completely transparent and covered on C-Span so that all americans can see what is being discussed?    I am telling you.... open your eyes to see the real face of Democrat party.

The amount of waste and spending that currently goes on in the medical system cant be sustained. But for me to go into details would require me to have a bottle of rum in my hand and its too damn early in the morning. needless to say the rich have a reason to keep the status quo. We are the number #1 spender in HC in the world. We are ranked #36 in the world in care (after Cuba). All that spending does nothing for us except make the insurance companies richer and the AMA stronger. Health Care is already 1/6th of our economy. It will soon be even bigger. Did you know that YOU (assuming you are an average american) pay 18K a year in health care cost. Now do you really think YOU spend that much? Something has to change.

Aunty, let me tell you one thing.

You came to US to enjoy it's rich lifestyle, Yes or No? I know, the answer will be Yes. How do you think this rich lifestyle happen? Did it happen out of the blue? Why do you think americans make probably the highest salaries in the world? Compare your salary to your counterpart in India or Canada.

See, that is where everything boils down to. I will try to explain why healthcare is costly in US.

It starts with studies. US has some of the best medical colleges and universities. Now since they are the best, they charge high tuition fee. So doctors coming out of these universities already have huge student loans. Since they have huge loans, they expect and are paid high salaries... otherwise it would a waste of time for them to be doctors. Also, let's talk about medical malpractice cases. Doctors have to pay large amount of money to buy malpractice insurance. Why is it high? Because courts usually award tens of millions of dollars in medical cases. If you are running a clinic then you pay good salary to nurses etc. In general, what I am saying is that salaries and cost of insurance alone makes it very costly to operate a clinic or doctor's office or hospital. Add to that all the latest machines etc. that they have to buy. So, how do you think a clinic in US can survive if it does not charge you enough to meets it's expenses?

One way of reducing costs would be to reduce doctor salaries. Is that the right way to go? Would you, personally, work with same enthusiasm if you salary was reduced? Human labor is costly is US because of the lifestyle in US, because US is a developed nation. It is the same lifestyle that attracts people to come here. So, are we saying that what attracted us to come is is now turning out to be the cause of a problem? That's not right.

How about putting a cap on the amount that can be awarded in a malpractice case? If insurance companies know that they won't have to pay, say, more than a million dollars in a malpractice case, than they will charge less premium. That will make is less costly to operate the clinic. See the trickle down effect? Why aren't Dems and Obama thinking on this line?

Here's another idea I can throw for your thought. How about changing the way health insurance system operates. Currently, we go to the doctor, pay the co-pay and come back. Doctor files the claim directly to insurance company. We the consumers don't get to see how much was charged and paid. How about asking the consumer to pay the fee upfront and then consumer filing the reimbursement claim to the insurance company. What will that do? It will force the consumer to shop around for the 'cheap and best' type of doctors. Isn't that what we do in India? Once you have found the cheap and best doctor of your liking, you file a claim of lesser amount than before. Insurance company pays less and via trickle down effect your monthly insurance premiums start going down. Also, when you have to pay costs upfront, you will start asking question whenever the doctor asks you to go for some tests. Statistically, it is the wasteful tests that result in wasteful claims and payments. So if consumer questions the doctor when he prescribes tests, doctors will slowly stop prescribing wasteful tests and that will result in less claims. How about Dems taking a look at this idea? Well, they haven't even thought of it.

How about making health insurance work like Auto insurance. That will revolutionize health insurance. Imagine if you could build your health plan the way you want it... just like you do with your auto insurance. Imagine if your health insurance provider gave you annual discounts in monthly premiums if you stayed healthy throughout the year, just like your auto insurance gives you if no claims are filed. How's that for an idea that Dems and your genius Obama have not even thought about.

I don't pay 18K out of pocket per year of health insurance. I pay something like 4K in monthly premium. My employer pays around 5K. I don't know where  you got the 18K figure. If you got it from MSNBC or CNN etc., I can understand the misinformation.

Yes, something has to change. But what? If your car engine has a problem and you take your car to mechanic, does he build a new engine for you, or does he investigates the cause of the problem and fixes it? Why do you want a completely new system when the current system works for 95% of americans? I simply don't understand it, and I'm talking about govt option. Current system works for 95% of US population, and you want to scrap the system and build a new one? Why? Wouldn't you rather want to investigate the problems in the current system minutely and try to find specific solutions for them?

I am not happy with the change that is happening. Yes the bill that is going through has already been shorn of all the effective things thanks to your friends in washington. BUT SOMETHING has to happen. At this time I will take whatever that something is. It would atleast be a move in the right direction.

Again, Republicans had absolutely nothing to do with Obamacare. Don't blame them, and there was hardly anything good in either the Senate or the House version of the bill.



Ganguly Laxman Obama sucks   

[Cover Point]

the republicans made sure of that .... almost 9 months ago! the real reform (cuts in medicare, prescriptions etc and most importantly the govt option) have already been removed by these republicans representing their respective corporations/associations and now what is left is window dressing.

Hey, you missed something - the republicans forced John Edwards to have an affair, make a baby, not admit to the affair, not admit to the baby, then admit to the affair, then admit to being the father of the baby.

now what does that have to do with Healthcare reform? Should i bring out all the republicans having affairs with little boys or men?  or Rush Limbaugh's drug use? or Bush?

[Cover Point]

uncle ji, i never said the current version of the bill will do anything but add to the cost. the republicans made sure of that .... almost 9 months ago! the real reform (cuts in medicare, prescriptions etc and most importantly the govt option) have already been removed by these republicans representing their respective corporations/associations and now what is left is window dressing.

Don't put absolutely any blame on Republicans for anything to do with Obamacare.

Dems had 60 votes in senate and 60% majority in house. If they wanted, they could have passed Obamacare alone, but they didn't. Think why. Because some wise Dems were not so sure that Obamacare would help any american at all.

You think cut in Medicare is real reform? Tell me how. Tell me how cutting $500 billion from Medicare - the plan that subsidizes health coverage for 65 yr old and above is real reform. Tell me how cutting benefits for retired senior citizens is real reform. This is ridiculous.

Tell me what was Obamacare doing to reduce cost of prescription drugs? Do you know any specifics? If you do, please educate me.

Tell me how govt option would have helped ALL people. I can discuss drawbacks of govt option with you in detail if you want to.

Republicans deliberately kept themselves out of picture for the entire duration of the Obamacare drama, so they can not be blamed for absolutely anything. Obamacare has gone down because Dems themselves were not sure that it would work.

By the way, can you explain why Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid were hiding this bill from public? Can you tell me why C-Span was kept out of the discussion that Dems were having among themselves when Obama had shouted from rooftops during campaign that anything to do with healthcare will be completely transparent and covered on C-Span so that all americans can see what is being discussed?    I am telling you.... open your eyes to see the real face of Democrat party.

The amount of waste and spending that currently goes on in the medical system cant be sustained. But for me to go into details would require me to have a bottle of rum in my hand and its too damn early in the morning. needless to say the rich have a reason to keep the status quo. We are the number #1 spender in HC in the world. We are ranked #36 in the world in care (after Cuba). All that spending does nothing for us except make the insurance companies richer and the AMA stronger. Health Care is already 1/6th of our economy. It will soon be even bigger. Did you know that YOU (assuming you are an average american) pay 18K a year in health care cost. Now do you really think YOU spend that much? Something has to change.

Aunty, let me tell you one thing.

You came to US to enjoy it's rich lifestyle, Yes or No? I know, the answer will be Yes. How do you think this rich lifestyle happen? Did it happen out of the blue? Why do you think americans make probably the highest salaries in the world? Compare your salary to your counterpart in India or Canada.

See, that is where everything boils down to. I will try to explain why healthcare is costly in US.

It starts with studies. US has some of the best medical colleges and universities. Now since they are the best, they charge high tuition fee. So doctors coming out of these universities already have huge student loans. Since they have huge loans, they expect and are paid high salaries... otherwise it would a waste of time for them to be doctors. Also, let's talk about medical malpractice cases. Doctors have to pay large amount of money to buy malpractice insurance. Why is it high? Because courts usually award tens of millions of dollars in medical cases. If you are running a clinic then you pay good salary to nurses etc. In general, what I am saying is that salaries and cost of insurance alone makes it very costly to operate a clinic or doctor's office or hospital. Add to that all the latest machines etc. that they have to buy. So, how do you think a clinic in US can survive if it does not charge you enough to meets it's expenses?

One way of reducing costs would be to reduce doctor salaries. Is that the right way to go? Would you, personally, work with same enthusiasm if you salary was reduced? Human labor is costly is US because of the lifestyle in US, because US is a developed nation. It is the same lifestyle that attracts people to come here. So, are we saying that what attracted us to come is is now turning out to be the cause of a problem? That's not right.

How about putting a cap on the amount that can be awarded in a malpractice case? If insurance companies know that they won't have to pay, say, more than a million dollars in a malpractice case, than they will charge less premium. That will make is less costly to operate the clinic. See the trickle down effect? Why aren't Dems and Obama thinking on this line?

Here's another idea I can throw for your thought. How about changing the way health insurance system operates. Currently, we go to the doctor, pay the co-pay and come back. Doctor files the claim directly to insurance company. We the consumers don't get to see how much was charged and paid. How about asking the consumer to pay the fee upfront and then consumer filing the reimbursement claim to the insurance company. What will that do? It will force the consumer to shop around for the 'cheap and best' type of doctors. Isn't that what we do in India? Once you have found the cheap and best doctor of your liking, you file a claim of lesser amount than before. Insurance company pays less and via trickle down effect your monthly insurance premiums start going down. Also, when you have to pay costs upfront, you will start asking question whenever the doctor asks you to go for some tests. Statistically, it is the wasteful tests that result in wasteful claims and payments. So if consumer questions the doctor when he prescribes tests, doctors will slowly stop prescribing wasteful tests and that will result in less claims. How about Dems taking a look at this idea? Well, they haven't even thought of it.

How about making health insurance work like Auto insurance. That will revolutionize health insurance. Imagine if you could build your health plan the way you want it... just like you do with your auto insurance. Imagine if your health insurance provider gave you annual discounts in monthly premiums if you stayed healthy throughout the year, just like your auto insurance gives you if no claims are filed. How's that for an idea that Dems and your genius Obama have not even thought about.

I don't pay 18K out of pocket per year of health insurance. I pay something like 4K in monthly premium. My employer pays around 5K. I don't know where  you got the 18K figure. If you got it from MSNBC or CNN etc., I can understand the misinformation.

Yes, something has to change. But what? If your car engine has a problem and you take your car to mechanic, does he build a new engine for you, or does he investigates the cause of the problem and fixes it? Why do you want a completely new system when the current system works for 95% of americans? I simply don't understand it, and I'm talking about govt option. Current system works for 95% of US population, and you want to scrap the system and build a new one? Why? Wouldn't you rather want to investigate the problems in the current system minutely and try to find specific solutions for them?

I am not happy with the change that is happening. Yes the bill that is going through has already been shorn of all the effective things thanks to your friends in washington. BUT SOMETHING has to happen. At this time I will take whatever that something is. It would atleast be a move in the right direction.

Again, Republicans had absolutely nothing to do with Obamacare. Don't blame them, and there was hardly anything good in either the Senate or the House version of the bill.



Ganguly Laxman Obama sucks   

abhi zara sushi khaane jaa raha hoon ... aa ke jawaab doonga

[LosingNow]

now what does that have to do with Healthcare reform?

EGGJACKTLY!!

[Cover Point]

now what does that have to do with Healthcare reform?

EGGJACKTLY!!

sorry. had a company party last night and maybe i had too many drinks. zara samjhao to sahi. I did not understand that.

[ruchir]

now what does that have to do with Healthcare reform?

EGGJACKTLY!!

sorry. had a company party last night and maybe i had too many drinks. zara samjhao to sahi. I did not understand that.

What WN is saying is that just like it is ridiculous to think that Republicans had anything to do with Edwards having an affair, it is as much ridiculous to think that Republicans derailed Obamacare bill because Dems had supermajority in Senate and House till this Moday... and yet they could not pass Obamacare. If the bill was good, Dems would have had it passed without a single Republican vote.


Aunty ki daaru ka nahin hai jawaaaaab,
Main bhi kharaab, Tu bhi kharaab....

[Cover Point]

now what does that have to do with Healthcare reform?

EGGJACKTLY!!

sorry. had a company party last night and maybe i had too many drinks. zara samjhao to sahi. I did not understand that.

What WN is saying is that just like it is ridiculous to think that Republicans had anything to do with Edwards having an affair, it is as much ridiculous to think that Republicans derailed Obamacare bill because Dems had supermajority in Senate and House till this Moday... and yet they could not pass Obamacare. If the bill was good, Dems would have had it passed without a single Republican vote.


Aunty ki daaru ka nahin hai jawaaaaab,
Main bhi kharaab, Tu bhi kharaab....

na na na na na. aise kaise jaane doonga!

Ofcourse Edwards was responsible for his own downfall BUT republicans and big money was indeed responsible for the dilution and eventual killing of any meaningful reform. No one said that All dems are saints. Many of them have been influenced by big money too ... and thus the super majority did not mean anything

[Shukla]

now what does that have to do with Healthcare reform?

EGGJACKTLY!!

sorry. had a company party last night and maybe i had too many drinks. zara samjhao to sahi. I did not understand that.

What WN is saying is that just like it is ridiculous to think that Republicans had anything to do with Edwards having an affair, it is as much ridiculous to think that Republicans derailed Obamacare bill because Dems had supermajority in Senate and House till this Moday... and yet they could not pass Obamacare. If the bill was good, Dems would have had it passed without a single Republican vote.


Aunty ki daaru ka nahin hai jawaaaaab,
Main bhi kharaab, Tu bhi kharaab....

Filibuster-proof dem majority in senate is a joke with Lieberman caucusing with Dems. He would have filibustered anything with a public option.

[ruchir]

Ofcourse Edwards was responsible for his own downfall BUT republicans and big money was indeed responsible for the dilution and eventual killing of any meaningful reform. No one said that All dems are saints. Many of them have been influenced by big money too ... and thus the super majority did not mean anything

Filibuster-proof dem majority in senate is a joke with Lieberman caucusing with Dems. He would have filibustered anything with a public option.

 

I seriously want to know what planet you guys are living on and if you are dinking MSNBC kool-aid or not.

Jokes aside, Lieberman voted with Dems to start the process of debate in senate on Obamacare, did he not? He did so when Dems were saying that Obamacare has public option. From that point onwards, Lieberman knew that if Dems got 60 votes to start the debate they will eventually not need 60 votes to pass it as a law. They could do it with just 50 senate votes by calling the reconciliation process that is only used for passing budgets. Even now I have heard comments of some Dems who want to use reconciliation process. It's just that many other Dems are now frightened seeing the loss in MA.

And they should be frightened. Take absolutely any poll. You will see that 60% americans are now aprehensive of Obamacare, as it is being show-cased, and they don't want it anymore. So what should the Dems do? Still behave like ostrich and carry on with Obamacare, and ultimately lose 2010 and 2012 elections or stop and re-evaluate what they were doing?

Aunty, please show me an incident (prior to MA results) where a Republican was in a position to stop Obamacare, or even in a position to dilute it. An example would be helpful in understanding what you want to say.

FYI Aunty - Obama said that he would keep lobbyists out of his administration, then why did he invite lobbyists from big pharma companies to help Dems write the Obamacare bill? He said he will tax all "Caddilac health plans" to generate money for Obamacare, then why did he agree to exempt members of SEIU, having Caddlia health plans, from being taxed? You have to understand one thing - Obamacare was being used to not provide health insurance to uninsured, but to make sure that Obama has enough votes to win again in 2012. That's my analysis of Obamacare. Obamacare is by far the most flawed piece of legislation that I have seen in my 11 years in USA.

[Cover Point]

Ofcourse Edwards was responsible for his own downfall BUT republicans and big money was indeed responsible for the dilution and eventual killing of any meaningful reform. No one said that All dems are saints. Many of them have been influenced by big money too ... and thus the super majority did not mean anything

Filibuster-proof dem majority in senate is a joke with Lieberman caucusing with Dems. He would have filibustered anything with a public option.

 

I seriously want to know what planet you guys are living on and if you are dinking MSNBC kool-aid or not.

Jokes aside, Lieberman voted with Dems to start the process of debate in senate on Obamacare, did he not? He did so when Dems were saying that Obamacare has public option. From that point onwards, Lieberman knew that if Dems got 60 votes to start the debate they will eventually not need 60 votes to pass it as a law. They could do it with just 50 senate votes by calling the reconciliation process that is only used for passing budgets. Even now I have heard comments of some Dems who want to use reconciliation process. It's just that many other Dems are now frightened seeing the loss in MA.

And they should be frightened. Take absolutely any poll. You will see that 60% americans are now aprehensive of Obamacare, as it is being show-cased, and they don't want it anymore. So what should the Dems do? Still behave like ostrich and carry on with Obamacare, and ultimately lose 2010 and 2012 elections or stop and re-evaluate what they were doing?

Aunty, please show me an incident (prior to MA results) where a Republican was in a position to stop Obamacare, or even in a position to dilute it. An example would be helpful in understanding what you want to say.

FYI Aunty - Obama said that he would keep lobbyists out of his administration, then why did he invite lobbyists from big pharma companies to help Dems write the Obamacare bill? He said he will tax all "Caddilac health plans" to generate money for Obamacare, then why did he agree to exempt members of SEIU, having Caddlia health plans, from being taxed? You have to understand one thing - Obamacare was being used to not provide health insurance to uninsured, but to make sure that Obama has enough votes to win again in 2012. That's my analysis of Obamacare. Obamacare is by far the most flawed piece of legislation that I have seen in my 11 years in USA.

in that case you must have missed the 8 bush years! And I guess the patriot act did not exist?

Listen. I will be the first to agree that the Health Care bill (which no longer should be called Obamacare without the public option) has tons of flaws. The deal with the pharma was terrible. The exemption to the unions is terrible.

Obama has had to make a lot of deals due to the misinformation spread by the republicans and the American Joe public isnt the smartest bulb of them all either. Democrats are a bunch of wussies. They get jittery. Even though what they set out to do was the right thing .... the republicans made sure that they killed anything substantial.

Remember the hot chick's death panels? I mean the biggest load of crap became gospel truth and Obama had to scramble to limit the damage. This the kind of Joe Public Obama has to deal with. Yes, i wish he had the bravado of Bush who despite not knowing anything .... would just do things. But Obama has always been an intellectual. He tries to have a debate where he should have just ridiculed those ideas.

[ruchir]

in that case you must have missed the 8 bush years! And I guess the patriot act did not exist?

You are deviating, Aunty. You didn't start the discussion on Bush. You started about Obamacare. Bush has nothing to do with Obamacare. Bush has not been the president for last 1 year.

Listen. I will be the first to agree that the Health Care bill (which no longer should be called Obamacare without the public option) has tons of flaws. The deal with the pharma was terrible. The exemption to the unions is terrible.

Thank you realizing the above. It is still Obamacare, though.

Obama has had to make a lot of deals due to the misinformation spread by the republicans and the American Joe public isnt the smartest bulb of them all either.

Your statement in bold... could be used against Obama too!!! I mean, American Joe public really really showed that they are the dumbest bulbs of all when they voted Obama into presidency. That's my opinion IF you have your opinion. You just can't say that americans are stupid when they don't agree with you and say they are smart when they agree with you. If they are stupid, then they are stupid for voting of Obama as much as they are stupid for rejecting Obamacare.

Republicans spreading misinformation? So, public is stupid to believe the misinformation spread by Republicans, then they must be equally stupid to initially believe Obama's canary songs on how good Obamacare is. And Obama must be the biggest stupid of all because he can't make stupid people believe his words!!!! I mean, these are the same stupid people who voted for him. He is supposed to be the best orator in US. So what happened?

If you are selling a product that you know is good, then how difficult it is for you to sell it if you are in the best position to sell it - position of President? If Obamacare is really so brilliant then why are Dems having such a difficult time selling it to public? Dems are in power in Congress, Dems have presidency, they have 4 TV news channels backing them, so why the hell can't they sell Obamacare? There has to be something seriously wrong with it, that most americans can now see but you can't.

Democrats are a bunch of wussies. They get jittery. Even though what they set out to do was the right thing .... the republicans made sure that they killed anything substantial.

Again, if you want a discussion on pros and cons of Obamacare bill, we can do that.

Remember the hot chick's death panels? I mean the biggest load of crap became gospel truth and Obama had to scramble to limit the damage. This the kind of Joe Public Obama has to deal with.

You are contradicting yourself, Aunty. If death panels was the biggest load of crap, then why did Obama scramble to do ANYTHING? If it is a lie then you should be easily able to prove that it is a lie. Right? Why go insane trying to do so?

Death panels was not a lie and Obamacare proved it, actually. Cutting $500 billion from Medicare reimbursement is going to kill Senior Citizens. Putting a clause that doctors accepting govt option will have to talk to senior citizens about end-of-life is what the so called hot chick was calling death panel.

BTW, why are Dem supporters so angry all the time? Why are they always ready to insult, personally attack the other side all the time? You just called an ex-governor "hot chick". Why? Why couldn't you just say Palin? After all, she has been an ex-mayor, ex-governor, something Obama wasn't before becoming president.

Yes, i wish he had the bravado of Bush who despite not knowing anything .... would just do things. But Obama has always been an intellectual. He tries to have a debate where he should have just ridiculed those ideas.

Obama and intellectual is an oxymoron. Did you hear him on Stephonopolus? He was being such an intellectual there that he nearly strangled himself in his own argument?

When GS asked Obama what he thought about Brown victory in MA, Obama said that it was the same anger that brought Brown to victory, that had brought him to presidency.

What??

According to Obama, public was angry at Bush, so they voted for him. And then he says it is the same anger that was responsible for Brown victory. Meaning, because public was angry at Bush, they voted a Republican to victory?

What??

Oh my god!!!! How could I miss this intellectualism? Oh my god....

[Cover Point]

Cant do post manipulation fr my iPhone. So leeping it brief.

First I wad responding to ur statement about worse legislation in 11 years when I brought up patriot act. So no don't want to discuss bush. It's an insult to se one of obama's intelligence to bring bush in the same post as Obama.

Will respond to rest when I have more time. On palin u should be happy I used her best quality to talk about her. Next comes db and that would not ne too nice.    

[dextrous]

so every jilla parishad election now is a referandum on obama...funny.

[ruchir]

so every jilla parishad election now is a referandum on obama...funny.

 

This one made my day.... A seat held by Ted Kennedy goes to Republicans and you call it a jilla parishad election? Is that the best you could come up with?

And of course it is a referendum on Obama. Scott Brown was shouting from roof tops that he was going to vote against Obamacare. Obama went and campaigned for Coakley. What else can we make out of it? This is as much a referendum on Obama as NJ, VA elections were.

[ruchir]

Cant do post manipulation fr my iPhone. So leeping it brief.

First I wad responding to ur statement about worse legislation in 11 years when I brought up patriot act. So no don't want to discuss bush. It's an insult to se one of obama's intelligence to bring bush in the same post as Obama.

Will respond to rest when I have more time. On palin u should be happy I used her best quality to talk about her. Next comes db and that would not ne too nice.

Patriot Act vs Obamacare... okay I get it, but you sure you want to get angry and personal talking about Palin? I mean, remember, you voted for a druggie for president. If you think voting for druggie Bush was bad then making the same mistake again with druggie Obama is worse. And taking drugs is his least bad quality IMO.

[vincent]

The rightist propa*a can go a long way in influencing naive people who are in majority in most of the countries. How about this one below against Islam? Of course, the same people will write tomorrow about Obama like this as they are already doing in Fox News regardless of all the calamities that the Bush Administration has brought upon the country.

                      http://www.redcounty.com/islam-tax/36184

                 

[dextrous]

the AZ Republican challenging McCain believes Obama is a foreigner haha...

i think people sometimes forget how crazy * was a year back

[Cover Point]

the AZ Republican challenging McCain believes Obama is a foreigner haha...

i think people sometimes forget how crazy * was a year back

The problem with the republicans is that they are being ruled by the far far right and play on the ignorance of the general public.

While the dems have failed because they really tried to go the middle of the road (HC reform and everything was far closer to the middle than extreme left) Republicans are just driven by extreme right and the ignorance of the masses.

The fact that McCain was never destined to win or was beaten by BUSH 9 years ago is In my mind overshadowed that Palin actually gave McCain a boost!!! Yikes. A woman who could not sit through ONE interview without coming across for the moron that she was gave McCain a boost.

I consider myself a fiscal conservative and would lean towards the definition of compassionate conservative. Republicans should appeal to me but when I look at them ALL I see is extremists and ignorant idiots. They are driven by the likes of Palin and racists like Joe Wilson. You hardly hear the relatively sane voices like McCain.

The problem with these republicans is that all they want to do is say no to any change either on the wall street OR in healthcare. Where are the republican ideas ? If they have a problem with the HC reform as is can they propose changes ? No. Because they would rather keep status quo which goes well with their rich constituents. Screw the rest of the country.

To me there are some good ideas from the right too (limit law suits to 250K for example) but they have to be implemented in the overall scheme of HC reform. Bring the effing costs down.

[dextrous]

the AZ Republican challenging McCain believes Obama is a foreigner haha...

i think people sometimes forget how crazy * was a year back

The problem with the republicans is that they are being ruled by the far far right and play on the ignorance of the general public.

While the dems have failed because they really tried to go the middle of the road (HC reform and everything was far closer to the middle than extreme left) Republicans are just driven by extreme right and the ignorance of the masses.

The fact that McCain was never destined to win or was beaten by BUSH 9 years ago is In my mind overshadowed that Palin actually gave McCain a boost!!! Yikes. A woman who could not sit through ONE interview without coming across for the moron that she was gave McCain a boost.

I consider myself a fiscal conservative and would lean towards the definition of compassionate conservative. Republicans should appeal to me but when I look at them ALL I see is extremists and ignorant idiots. They are driven by the likes of Palin and racists like Joe Wilson. You hardly hear the relatively sane voices like McCain.

The problem with these republicans is that all they want to do is say no to any change either on the wall street OR in healthcare. Where are the republican ideas ? If they have a problem with the HC reform as is can they propose changes ? No. Because they would rather keep status quo which goes well with their rich constituents. Screw the rest of the country.

To me there are some good ideas from the right too (limit law suits to 250K for example) but they have to be implemented in the overall scheme of HC reform. Bring the effing costs down.

good post, cp. hearing the republican senate leader talk about how "finally a segment of population that didnt have rights has rights now" (about corporations), seems straight out of an absurd kafka novel but nobody even blinks or laughs about what is being said

[indcric]

Ruchir

You seem to make a lot of sense and seem to have an idea of what health care reform should look like. I really didn't understand much of the health care reform from the news websites.

I understood that you think that a health care reform is needed.

Can you please propose a few points you want to see in the health care reform and a few points in the current health care reform approved by the House (not the senate) that you do not want?

I guess most people agree that there should be a limit on the amount that should be paid to resolve malpractice cases.

I don't agree with your point that Health insurance should be a lot like auto insurance. Health care is a much more complex topic than handling an automobile. Not all individuals understand it good enough. Not many individuals including me can't build a health plan like I build an auto insurance policy. The health plan I have now is more complex than the auto insurance policy that I have. If I mess with my policy and make a bad decision of say having lower limits to decrease my premiums, at the most I may damage my vehicle  and other vehicles on the road and end up paying for them out of pocket or at the most I get bankrupt. My credit history goes totally bad and I may not be able to buy any vehicle later.

But what if I mess with my health plan and opt for lower limits? How many people know how to maintain their weight or lose weight? How many people know how to stay healthy? How many people know how much damage can be done by just skipping breakfast for a few years? Is health in our hands always? What if there is an epidemic like H1N1 or some other hereditary disease? When I can no longer pay the claims, I become bankrupt and I can't get any other health policy from any insurance company, what about my current diseases? How do I treat them?

I can't simply pay a portion of the cost upfront, because most of the procedures cost more than my monthly savings. Later claiming it from insurance company? Don't you know how much complex and risky it is? Did you ever see a claim handled properly by these insurance people? Don't you know how long you have to wait on the phone to talk to a claims representative?What if the claim is not processed to my satisfaction? Do I have to go to court or whatever the government regulatory authority? What are the costs of hiring an attorney for every claim?

Almost every time, even now, my doctor tells me why a test is needed. So, I don't need to argue with him for that. May be that is because of the HMO plans that I have. These HMO plans didn't prevent me from asking a doctor to prescribe more tests to diagnose the symptoms correctly beyond my doubt, even when the doctor was quite sure of the problem. I am mostly fine with what I have right now.

The premiums are a bit high, because for a 4 member family I am paying 1/6th of my monthly salary. That is huge. The premiums should be brought down, but how?

Currently, I have to wait for a doctor's appointment for more than a month, how can we reduce that wait time, without actually paying for a PPO?

Lot of people don't have any kind of insurance. How do you expand insurance to those people who can't afford the current premiums?

[Cover Point]

Insurance was the biggest racket that has been purported on the American population. There has never been ANYONE who has benefited by ADDING a middleman. That is what Insurance is a middle man who takes my money and gives a smaller part of it to the doctors/hospitals.

Did you know insurance was started in the 30's or 40's just as a way to increase hospital business of elective procedures?

The whole effing system is such that it is pitted far in favor of the rich. If you have a job AND are willing to pay a big part of your pay monthly, u are covered. If you are unlucky enough to be screwed over by the rich republican wall street guys and have happened to lose your job .... Eff you ..... no HC for you. Unless ofcourse you are a Stinking rich prick willing to shell over big bucks for COBRA .... then you are back in again.

The current system does not provide care when someone needs it the most ... when they are vulnerable.

But these republicans dont want to talk about any of the real problems. They want to talk about death panels. "Oooh Obama wants to kill Grandma... That racist <add N word here>"

I will be the first to admit that the Democratic plan is not perfect. It was much better earlier but has slowly been diluted. Heck I will admit even the initial proposal was not perfect. If the republicans really wanted to help they could have worked with the president to add some of the saner ideas. As early as last march when Obama gave the speech he had mentioned he wants to work with some of the republican ideas (he specifically mentioned the 250K tort limit).

BUT all we heard in response was death panels! So much so that the Bimbo is now the star of the right! There is talk of the Bimbo being considered for the presidency. People have I guess already forgotten about the Bush years.

[indcric]

Insurance was the biggest racket that has been purported on the American population. There has never been ANYONE who has benefited by ADDING a middleman. That is what Insurance is a middle man who takes my money and gives a smaller part of it to the doctors/hospitals.

This is totally incorrect. I support what you say about the current republican leaders but not that the insurance is a waste of money. Insurance helped many people, who can pay current premiums. They don't even have to be rich, they just have to pay around $400 per month per person in any state except NY.

Did you hear any case of premature delivery of a 7 month old baby and how the insurance helped the baby live? Can you imagine some one who earns around 50K that can afford a premature delivery on his own without insurance? This is the most common case of being helped by insurance. There are thousands of babies who are born premature every month.

[dextrous]

Insurance was the biggest racket that has been purported on the American population. There has never been ANYONE who has benefited by ADDING a middleman. That is what Insurance is a middle man who takes my money and gives a smaller part of it to the doctors/hospitals.

This is totally incorrect. I support what you say about the current republican leaders but not that the insurance is a waste of money. Insurance helped many people, who can pay current premiums. They don't even have to be rich, they just have to pay around $400 per month per person in any state except NY.

Did you hear any case of premature delivery of a 7 month old baby and how the insurance helped the baby live? Can you imagine some one who earns around 50K that can afford a premature delivery on his own without insurance? This is the most common case of being helped by insurance. There are thousands of babies who are born premature every month.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. That's what insurance is SUPPOSED to do. But most of the time, it doesn't. Even for simple things, you have to fight with them to get any sort of money. Should we be thankful that insurance let's us visit a doctor now? What's that got to do with anything?

And yes, I can imagine a premature delivery without insurance. How do you think they do it in Europe? Doctors make it happen, not insurance.

And $400 for good insurance, really? And that's cheap? That's my car payment right there.

[Cover Point]

Insurance was the biggest racket that has been purported on the American population. There has never been ANYONE who has benefited by ADDING a middleman. That is what Insurance is a middle man who takes my money and gives a smaller part of it to the doctors/hospitals.

This is totally incorrect. I support what you say about the current republican leaders but not that the insurance is a waste of money. Insurance helped many people, who can pay current premiums. They don't even have to be rich, they just have to pay around $400 per month per person in any state except NY.

Did you hear any case of premature delivery of a 7 month old baby and how the insurance helped the baby live? Can you imagine some one who earns around 50K that can afford a premature delivery on his own without insurance? This is the most common case of being helped by insurance. There are thousands of babies who are born premature every month.

You are jumping too quick before thinking. Since insurance paid for that premature baby doesnt mean that insurance is good.

Let me ask you a question. You want to buy a car. Do you just go and just buy the most expensive car or do you do some price shopping. Insurance effectively makes gadha and ghoda the same. A great private doctor and one who barely scraped through medical school at the bottom of his class get paid by insurance exactly the same. And more so there is no incentive for the consumer to price shop. Your co pay is always 10 dollars (or 20 or 30 or whatever).

Now if you were paying the doctors from your own pocket you may think .... this is my general basic fever let me go to that bottom scraper and get him to give me the $10 advise vs going to the top guy who rightly should be charging 100.

Today insurance pays them all the same and you pay them all the same.

Thats just one point. Insurance also inflates the price for everyone else. Since the doctors dont need to compete in the open market (just dealing with one or 2 insurance companies is enough) they can charge any amount for their regular fees. So a poor uninsured joe schmo walks in and is faced with $175 doctor fee. Exactly what happened to me. Had to take my kid to an eye doctor for basic glasses. We were stupid enough to go to a regular eye doctor (as opposed to a place like Sam's club or america's best) and the bill was $175 (Iinsurance barely pays $45 for the same). Since our insurance did not cover this I am out $175 for something which if competing in open market should be $45!

Insurance as a concept is never meant for routine daily things. You dont have car insurance to cover your oil changes. It is for catastrophic events like a car crash or in health care for emergencies only. By extending it to daily things .... one will on average go to a doctor 3-4 times a year, you have made it just out of whack. We dont see what exactly we pay for medical care. Our insurance (through us or through or employers) is around $18K a year.  A big chunk goes to the medical insurance companies just to keep them profitable. Thats the BS of insurance that I am talking about.

Ii am ok with insurance for catastrophic events that a normal person can not plan out. Like a car crash or a heart attack or hospitalization.

Open up the medical field for a bit more competition and you will see prices drop. And these are not liberal concepts. These are conservative, open market concepts but the effing republicans dont want you to hear them. It hurts the big money guys and the kettle just lap it all up!

[indcric]

Insurance was the biggest racket that has been purported on the American population. There has never been ANYONE who has benefited by ADDING a middleman. That is what Insurance is a middle man who takes my money and gives a smaller part of it to the doctors/hospitals.

This is totally incorrect. I support what you say about the current republican leaders but not that the insurance is a waste of money. Insurance helped many people, who can pay current premiums. They don't even have to be rich, they just have to pay around $400 per month per person in any state except NY.

Did you hear any case of premature delivery of a 7 month old baby and how the insurance helped the baby live? Can you imagine some one who earns around 50K that can afford a premature delivery on his own without insurance? This is the most common case of being helped by insurance. There are thousands of babies who are born premature every month.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. That's what insurance is SUPPOSED to do. But most of the time, it doesn't. Even for simple things, you have to fight with them to get any sort of money. Should we be thankful that insurance let's us visit a doctor now? What's that got to do with anything?

And yes, I can imagine a premature delivery without insurance. How do you think they do it in Europe? Doctors make it happen, not insurance.

And $400 for good insurance, really? And that's cheap? That's my car payment right there.

Did you read what coverpoint said? He said insurance is like adding a middleman. It is not. It is supposed to cover for unexpected events. Insurance in these circumstances like the one I quoted pays way over what we pay them. In normal cases, Insurance makes money. Do I need to explain this simple thing?

Doctors make it happen. But how? Who is going to pay the hospital costs for months of intensive care? Doctors?

Read my first post on this thread again. I never said premiums are cheap. They need to be reduced. But you don't have to be rich to afford them. You just have to earn a decent salary. I pay just 250 per person in my family, and this is in Los Angeles metro area. It is even less in other areas. But in some areas, it is around 400.

[Cover Point]

Insurance was the biggest racket that has been purported on the American population. There has never been ANYONE who has benefited by ADDING a middleman. That is what Insurance is a middle man who takes my money and gives a smaller part of it to the doctors/hospitals.

This is totally incorrect. I support what you say about the current republican leaders but not that the insurance is a waste of money. Insurance helped many people, who can pay current premiums. They don't even have to be rich, they just have to pay around $400 per month per person in any state except NY.

Did you hear any case of premature delivery of a 7 month old baby and how the insurance helped the baby live? Can you imagine some one who earns around 50K that can afford a premature delivery on his own without insurance? This is the most common case of being helped by insurance. There are thousands of babies who are born premature every month.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. That's what insurance is SUPPOSED to do. But most of the time, it doesn't. Even for simple things, you have to fight with them to get any sort of money. Should we be thankful that insurance let's us visit a doctor now? What's that got to do with anything?

And yes, I can imagine a premature delivery without insurance. How do you think they do it in Europe? Doctors make it happen, not insurance.

And $400 for good insurance, really? And that's cheap? That's my car payment right there.

Did you read what coverpoint said? He said insurance is like adding a middleman. It is not. It is supposed to cover for unexpected events. Insurance in these circumstances like the one I quoted pays way over what we pay them. In normal cases, Insurance makes money. Do I need to explain this simple thing?

Doctors make it happen. But how? Who is going to pay the hospital costs for months of intensive care? Doctors?

Read my first post on this thread again. I never said premiums are cheap. They need to be reduced. But you don't have to be rich to afford them. You just have to earn a decent salary. I pay just 250 per person in my family, and this is in Los Angeles metro area. It is even less in other areas. But in some areas, it is around 400.

nopes it is not. You pay $1000 for a family for either crappy insurance or your employer foots the other part of the bill. Average insurance cost for a family are around $18000 a year!

That is Effing a HUGE part of a normal person's income. So only the Rich can afford it.

[indcric]

Insurance was the biggest racket that has been purported on the American population. There has never been ANYONE who has benefited by ADDING a middleman. That is what Insurance is a middle man who takes my money and gives a smaller part of it to the doctors/hospitals.

This is totally incorrect. I support what you say about the current republican leaders but not that the insurance is a waste of money. Insurance helped many people, who can pay current premiums. They don't even have to be rich, they just have to pay around $400 per month per person in any state except NY.

Did you hear any case of premature delivery of a 7 month old baby and how the insurance helped the baby live? Can you imagine some one who earns around 50K that can afford a premature delivery on his own without insurance? This is the most common case of being helped by insurance. There are thousands of babies who are born premature every month.

You are jumping too quick before thinking. Since insurance paid for that premature baby doesnt mean that insurance is good.

Let me ask you a question. You want to buy a car. Do you just go and just buy the most expensive car or do you do some price shopping. Insurance effectively makes gadha and ghoda the same. A great private doctor and one who barely scraped through medical school at the bottom of his class get paid by insurance exactly the same. And more so there is no incentive for the consumer to price shop. Your co pay is always 10 dollars (or 20 or 30 or whatever).

Now if you were paying the doctors from your own pocket you may think .... this is my general basic fever let me go to that bottom scraper and get him to give me the $10 advise vs going to the top guy who rightly should be charging 100.

Today insurance pays them all the same and you pay them all the same.

Thats just one point. Insurance also inflates the price for everyone else. Since the doctors dont need to compete in the open market (just dealing with one or 2 insurance companies is enough) they can charge any amount for their regular fees. So a poor uninsured joe schmo walks in and is faced with $175 doctor fee. Exactly what happened to me. Had to take my kid to an eye doctor for basic glasses. We were stupid enough to go to a regular eye doctor (as opposed to a place like Sam's club or america's best) and the bill was $175 (Iinsurance barely pays $45 for the same). Since our insurance did not cover this I am out $175 for something which if competing in open market should be $45!

Insurance as a concept is never meant for routine daily things. You dont have car insurance to cover your oil changes. It is for catastrophic events like a car crash or in health care for emergencies only. By extending it to daily things .... one will on average go to a doctor 3-4 times a year, you have made it just out of whack. We dont see what exactly we pay for medical care. Our insurance (through us or through or employers) is around $18K a year.  A big chunk goes to the medical insurance companies just to keep them profitable. Thats the BS of insurance that I am talking about.

Ii am ok with insurance for catastrophic events that a normal person can not plan out. Like a car crash or a heart attack or hospitalization.

Open up the medical field for a bit more competition and you will see prices drop. And these are not liberal concepts. These are conservative, open market concepts but the effing republicans dont want you to hear them. It hurts the big money guys and the kettle just lap it all up!

Insurance in most cases, never forces you to go to a gadha. It is your choice. Most insurers have a network of doctors, from whom you can choose. If you are not satisfied with your doctor, you can change him.

I get your basic idea of paying the same amount of money for a consultation for any doctor in any scenario. I agree that insurance does that. But it has far more benefits than this drawback.

Exactly as you said, you should never judge insurance w.r.t normal events. Insurance is supposed to cover unexpected and high cost events. Since you never know what will happen in future, you pay a regular premium. You should always judge insurance w.r.t unusual events. That is why, I picked up that premature baby scenario. Insurance is good because it helps me handle those high cost events, which I can't pay from my pocket. If I can pay from pocket for everything, why do I need insurance? We are saying the same thing I guess, but you see insurance as evil because it inflates prices for ordinary events. I see it as good, because it covers me for extraordinary events. And that is what insurance is for, extraordinary events. So, it is good, isn't it?

Yes. Insurance has drawback. It inflates rates for ordinary events. And you said it doesn't allow you to price shop? In the scenario of eye glasses that you mentioned, you had the opportunity, but you didn't. Why on earth, you didn't price shop, when it is not covered by insurance? This is what I meant when I said health insurance shopping is complex. Even well educated guys make mistakes in choosing the right policy and choosing the right doctor/facility for a given condition.

Are you suggesting that health insurance company should start with a lesser premium and increase your premium, when they find that you have a serious illness that needs long term treatment? That is another debate. Hmm? It might lead to denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, which might not be good.

You should always choose insurance based on your lifestyle and family history. Are you a significantly healthy person with right life style of regular exercise and good eating habits and no hereditary disease history? Then, choose HSA. If not, choose a HMO plan that covers most. If your medical condition needs expert doctors and good hospitals, choose PPO.

The medical field is open to competition. Did you ever talk to a network doctor whether he is open to a regular visit without insurance? Most doctors are. If you are a healthy person, choose a plan with low premium and low co-pay which only covers catastrophic events. Then go to this doctor with whom you have an agreement for normal visits like fever.

[indcric]

Insurance was the biggest racket that has been purported on the American population. There has never been ANYONE who has benefited by ADDING a middleman. That is what Insurance is a middle man who takes my money and gives a smaller part of it to the doctors/hospitals.

This is totally incorrect. I support what you say about the current republican leaders but not that the insurance is a waste of money. Insurance helped many people, who can pay current premiums. They don't even have to be rich, they just have to pay around $400 per month per person in any state except NY.

Did you hear any case of premature delivery of a 7 month old baby and how the insurance helped the baby live? Can you imagine some one who earns around 50K that can afford a premature delivery on his own without insurance? This is the most common case of being helped by insurance. There are thousands of babies who are born premature every month.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. That's what insurance is SUPPOSED to do. But most of the time, it doesn't. Even for simple things, you have to fight with them to get any sort of money. Should we be thankful that insurance let's us visit a doctor now? What's that got to do with anything?

And yes, I can imagine a premature delivery without insurance. How do you think they do it in Europe? Doctors make it happen, not insurance.

And $400 for good insurance, really? And that's cheap? That's my car payment right there.

Did you read what coverpoint said? He said insurance is like adding a middleman. It is not. It is supposed to cover for unexpected events. Insurance in these circumstances like the one I quoted pays way over what we pay them. In normal cases, Insurance makes money. Do I need to explain this simple thing?

Doctors make it happen. But how? Who is going to pay the hospital costs for months of intensive care? Doctors?

Read my first post on this thread again. I never said premiums are cheap. They need to be reduced. But you don't have to be rich to afford them. You just have to earn a decent salary. I pay just 250 per person in my family, and this is in Los Angeles metro area. It is even less in other areas. But in some areas, it is around 400.

nopes it is not. You pay $1000 for a family for either crappy insurance or your employer foots the other part of the bill. Average insurance cost for a family are around $18000 a year!

That is Effing a HUGE part of a normal person's income. So only the Rich can afford it.

O.K. Tell me which area you live in and I will give you a good insurance plan. For $1000 to $1200, you get good HMO Plan for a 4 member family in most locations. What do you mean by crappy insurance? If you call this is unaffordable, can you tell me what is your auto insurance? Around $100 to $150 per vehicle per month? Health insurance is around $250 to $300 per person per month.

Can you tell me, which is more common? Meeting with an accident? or getting an illness? Can you tell me, which is more important? Maintaining a car? Maintaining good health? For more common, more important, more costly events, you need to pay more for insurance.

Yes, it is a huge part of a person's income. It is not affordable as it is for poor people. But for people who make around 100K, you can afford $1000 to $1200. You don't have a choice, if you maintain a bad life style or have a bad family history.

Yes, it should be made more affordable. Premiums need to come down, by making the system more efficient. That is why there needs to be a reform. But remember, with reduced premiums, come long waits to visit a doctor or to get a surgery done. The people who can afford it (again not the Rich, they can always get done anything faster)  should be able to go to a doctor or get a surgery done without a long waiting period.

Can you tell me whom do you call rich? The guys who make over 100K? or the guys who make over 250K? I guess most people say it is guys making over 250K. The guys who make 100K should be able to visit a doctor fairly faster. The guys who make less, obviously will wait. It is not fair for a socialist, but US is not a socialist country.

Finally, the insurance companies are there to make profit for their shareholders. That is not BS. Even I thought these companies are making huge profits, when my premiums went up. I checked the financial statements. To my surprise, they are not making huge profits, but just nominal profits. There is huge competition in the industry. It will drive down the profits. It is a price-competitive industry. Check the financial statements of a few health insurance companies and let me know.

Are they charities to make zero profit? Do you want a public option or a non-profit insurance organization?  That is part of the reform.

But it is wrong to say that the idea of insurance is useless and it only acts as a middleman. That is the part I debated against.