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[Blwe_torch]

Mumbai belongs to all India: Sachin
Jaideep Marar, TNN 14 November 2009, 12:40am IST

MUMBAI: Sachin Tendulkar loves to parade his Maharashtrian roots but not at the cost of national pride. During a media interaction with select mediapersons on Friday, the master blaster sent out a strong message to all those supposedly upholding the Marathi cause: "I am extremely proud of being a Maharashtrian, but Mumbai is a part of India and I play for India.’’

Switching to English, Hindi and Marathi with as much ease as he lets those boundaries flow from his bat, Tendulkar was the quintessential Indian during the interaction initiated by WSG. Right from the time he first put on the India cap on a wintry November morning at Karachi in 1989 (which he termed as the "best moment’’ of his cricketing career), Tendulkar emphasised, it was a dream which "I continue to live even today’’. So what if he is two days shy of celebrating 20 years in international cricket: the batting maestro says, "After that (donning the India cap), whatever I achieved subsequently is a mere reflection in the national cause.’’

"Above all, the affection and support from the cricket fans of the country has been immense. You need people to share your success and I have more than a billion people. That is more than enough for me,’’ he remarked.
So what has been his mantra for success? "At home there was an unwritten rule: Let others talk about your past, you just have to think about the future.’’

In all, Tendulkar spent nearly six hours patiently tending to interviews, including an interaction with select media, which again was a rare sight since the batting legend often fights shy of the media spotlight.

Normally when he spends that kind of time on a cricket field, he returns with a hundred under his belt. For a change, this time he was at the receiving end. To his credit, he was rarely flustered as he patiently addressed every query, which ranged from the bold to the bizarre. Often he pointed out factual errors, but what stood out was his elephantine memory.

When somebody asked him to relive the time when was stuck on the nineties during an inter-school match, Tendulkar took over with ease. "It was a match against Don Bosco,’’ he said. "I was 96 not out and was keen to get the hundred because I often used to ask my coach (Ramakant Achrekar) to come home for lunch. He would brush it away, saying he’d come only come if I scored a century. It was also going to be my first century in competitive cricket. I couldn’t sleep the whole night. The next morning, my father and I visited a Ganpati temple on the way to the ground. I reached the century in the first over and when we returned for the lunch break, I went up to the coach and said, ‘Sir, you’ll come home now, won’t you?’ ‘’

Another query was related to a Rajasthan player, Gohil, who Tendulkar, apparently, had been on the lookout for, for many years. "We were at an u-15 camp in Indore,’’ said the master blaster. "Between the 12th and 14th day, I lost my batting pads. They were very special to me. Incidentally, the boy was also missing around the same
time as my pads.’’ Why were they special? "They were gifted to me by Sunil Gavaskar!’’

The genial side in Tendulkar then showed up. "I don’t intend to say he stole them but yes I lost them.’’

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Mumbai-belongs-to-all-India-Sachin/articleshow/5228277.cms

[dextrous]

good statement by sachin..more mumbai-wallahs need to say it

[Cover Point]

good statement by sachin..more mumbai-wallahs need to say it

mumbaikars are now all gangulians. will explain when i have some time

[Blwe_torch]

Bal Thackeray slams Sachin on Marathi remarks
TNN 16 November 2009, 10:03am IST
   
MUMBAI: Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray slammed master blaster Sachin Tendulkar in an editorial piece published in party's mouthpiece ‘Saamna’ on Monday over the latter's Marathi remark.

Tendulkar, who completed his 20 years in international cricket yesterday, had sent a 'strong message' on November 13 to all those supposedly upholding the Marathi cause.

He had said: "I am extremely proud of being a Maharashtrian, but Mumbai is a part of India and I play for India."

Criticising the star cricketer for his remarks, Bal Thackeray writes in Saamna, "Stay sway from politics and concentrate on cricket."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Bal-Thackeray-slams-Sachin-over-Mumbai-for-all-remark/articleshow/5234553.cms

[dhruvdeepak]

Bal Thackeray slams Sachin on Marathi remarks
TNN 16 November 2009, 10:03am IST
   
MUMBAI: Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray slammed master blaster Sachin Tendulkar in an editorial piece published in party's mouthpiece ‘Saamna’ on Monday over the latter's Marathi remark.

Tendulkar, who completed his 20 years in international cricket yesterday, had sent a 'strong message' on November 13 to all those supposedly upholding the Marathi cause.

He had said: "I am extremely proud of being a Maharashtrian, but Mumbai is a part of India and I play for India."

Criticising the star cricketer for his remarks, Bal Thackeray writes in Saamna, "Stay sway from politics and concentrate on cricket."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Bal-Thackeray-slams-Sachin-over-Mumbai-for-all-remark/articleshow/5234553.cms

hopefully now sachin will stop voting for thuggeray

[Blwe_torch]

BCCI, political leaders take on Thackeray for Sachin bashing
PTI 16 November 2009, 05:41pm IST

NEW DELHI: A host of political leaders, cutting across party lines, came down heavily on Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray for criticising Sachin Tendulkar, saying the cricket maestro's "Mumbai for all" remark was just right and nobody could take objection to it. ( Watch Video )

The Indian cricket board also reacted angrily to the Sena supremo's comments in the party mouthpiece 'Saamna' with its spokesman Rajiv Shukla demanding that Thackeray should be brought to book for his verbal attack on the 36-year-old.

Thackeray said that Tendulkar had, through his remark, "left the crease and moved to the pitch of politics" and this had hurt the Marathi psyche. Earlier, Tendulkar had said, "I am a Maharashtrian and I am extremely proud of that. But I am an Indian first. And Mumbai belongs to all Indians."

Chief Ministers of Maharashtra and Bihar, Ashok Chavan and Nitish Kumar, Union Ministers Salman Khurshid and RJD leader Lalu Prasad, said they congratulated Tendulkar, a Maharashtrian and a pride of India, and that he had stated what was "just right" as Mumbai belongs to all Indians.

While Chavan said that Tendulkar's comment would help unite the entire country, the Bihar Chief Minister maintained that the revered cricketer had in fact earned more respect through his remark.

Prasad, a cricket enthusiast and former Union Minister, said, "It is Thackeray's habit to make such remarks....Sachin is a very good man and what he has stated is right".

Khurshid, Union Minority Affairs Minister and a Congressman, taking a jibe at the Shiv Sena leader, said the cricketer has clean bowled Thackeray.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/BCCI-political-leaders-take-on-Thackeray-for-Sachin-bashing/articleshow/5236251.cms

[vincent]

First of all, India is a democracy, where every individual has the right to what he says especially when he says that he loves his country before his state.It would be ideal if every Indian would think so.

Secondly, after all it is these individuals who elect the government and therefore there is no reason why they can not express their opinions.

Thirdly, talking politics, if at all , is not an exclusive domain of these corrupt politicians. The electorate have the right for their opinions, especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

[flute]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

[WicketView]

Bal Thackeray slams Sachin on Marathi remarks
TNN 16 November 2009, 10:03am IST
   
MUMBAI: Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray slammed master blaster Sachin Tendulkar in an editorial piece published in party's mouthpiece ‘Saamna’ on Monday over the latter's Marathi remark.

Tendulkar, who completed his 20 years in international cricket yesterday, had sent a 'strong message' on November 13 to all those supposedly upholding the Marathi cause.

He had said: "I am extremely proud of being a Maharashtrian, but Mumbai is a part of India and I play for India."

Criticising the star cricketer for his remarks, Bal Thackeray writes in Saamna, "Stay sway from politics and concentrate on cricket."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Bal-Thackeray-slams-Sachin-over-Mumbai-for-all-remark/articleshow/5234553.cms

hopefully now sachin will stop voting for thuggeray

Sachin normally votes for him?

[Cover Point]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

exactly.

a country gets the leaders it deserves. When delhi elects a shiela dixit ... they deserve to see a manu sharma go out on bail and kill a few more women. When they elect a Khodda (or whoever that cm is) they deserve to see them sell the country and pocket 4000 carores!

time after time they vote for criminals. Heck they even elected Azhar! all the power to them! they deserve their leaders they elect.

[fineleg]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

exactly.

a country gets the leaders it deserves. When delhi elects a shiela dixit ... they deserve to see a manu sharma go out on bail and kill a few more women. When they elect a Khodda (or whoever that cm is) they deserve to see them sell the country and pocket 4000 carores!

time after time they vote for criminals. Heck they even elected Azhar! all the power to them! they deserve their leaders they elect.

Mistake is on both sides. Electorate needs to demand better, but also the pool of politicians standing in an election are all corrupt sometimes. In such situations, rather than people refraining from voting, they at least need to vote the 'lesser thug' if you will.

[keep-it-cool]

Bal Thackeray has bitten off more than he can chew this time by attacking Sachin. Raj, smart that he is, has remained silent. He is much cleverer in choosing his targets.

[WicketView]

Bal Thackeray has bitten off more than he can chew this time by attacking Sachin. Raj, smart that he is, has remained silent. He is much cleverer in choosing his targets.

That would be the interesting thing. Sachin is a real icon, and it would be worth checking if that supporters of Thackeray or his arguments choose him over Sachin.

[keep-it-cool]

Bal Thackeray has bitten off more than he can chew this time by attacking Sachin. Raj, smart that he is, has remained silent. He is much cleverer in choosing his targets.

That would be the interesting thing. Sachin is a real icon, and it would be worth checking if that supporters of Thackeray or his arguments choose him over Sachin.

Also, what separates Sachin from someone like Bachchan (who is a real icon in his own right) is that SRT is a Maharashtrian himself and does not have any political leaning.

[WicketView]

Bal Thackeray has bitten off more than he can chew this time by attacking Sachin. Raj, smart that he is, has remained silent. He is much cleverer in choosing his targets.

That would be the interesting thing. Sachin is a real icon, and it would be worth checking if that supporters of Thackeray or his arguments choose him over Sachin.

Also, what separates Sachin from someone like Bachchan (who is a real icon in his own right) is that SRT is a Maharashtrian himself and does not have any political leaning.

True again, particularly the part about being Maharashtrian ... it will be hard to dress this up as Sachin making a case for himself.

[flute]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

exactly.

a country gets the leaders it deserves. When delhi elects a shiela dixit ... they deserve to see a manu sharma go out on bail and kill a few more women. When they elect a Khodda (or whoever that cm is) they deserve to see them sell the country and pocket 4000 carores!

time after time they vote for criminals. Heck they even elected Azhar! all the power to them! they deserve their leaders they elect.

Mistake is on both sides. Electorate needs to demand better, but also the pool of politicians standing in an election are all corrupt sometimes. In such situations, rather than people refraining from voting, they at least need to vote the 'lesser thug' if you will.

disagree. Indian politicians are smart. They know what sells and what excites people. If and when they realize "development" is what gets peoples support, indian politician will deliver development.

Having no sqeaky clean candiate is just an excuse and an intelligent electorate will never stand behind such defeatist excuses, afterall, what is stopping a clean candidate from contesting elections? if a really good candidate stands in a constituency you think such good candidates will invariably win? A big NO, this good candidate WILL have to talk to electorate in terms of caste, creed, locality, family history etc. in order to win. Lok Satta provided clean alternative candidates across the state in AP, only for the electorate to go for same old corrupt congress MLAs and MPs. An intelligent electorate as alleged by Vincent would have simply gone Lok Satta way.

[Cover Point]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

exactly.

a country gets the leaders it deserves. When delhi elects a shiela dixit ... they deserve to see a manu sharma go out on bail and kill a few more women. When they elect a Khodda (or whoever that cm is) they deserve to see them sell the country and pocket 4000 carores!

time after time they vote for criminals. Heck they even elected Azhar! all the power to them! they deserve their leaders they elect.

Mistake is on both sides. Electorate needs to demand better, but also the pool of politicians standing in an election are all corrupt sometimes. In such situations, rather than people refraining from voting, they at least need to vote the 'lesser thug' if you will.

disagree. Indian politicians are smart. They know what sells and what excites people. If and when they realize "development" is what gets peoples support, indian politician will deliver development.

Having no sqeaky clean candiate is just an excuse and an intelligent electorate will never stand behind such defeatist excuses, afterall, what is stopping a clean candidate from contesting elections? if a really good candidate stands in a constituency you think such good candidates will invariably win? A big NO, this good candidate WILL have to talk to electorate in terms of caste, creed, locality, family history etc. in order to win. Lok Satta provided clean alternative candidates across the state in AP, only for the electorate to go for same old corrupt congress MLAs and MPs. An intelligent electorate as alleged by Vincent would have simply gone Lok Satta way.

exactly. we get the leaders we deserve.

there is a general malaise in the electorate in india. not only is corruption accepted ..... infact i would say it is encouraged by the general population. everyone has a bone to pick with following the rules. everyone wants to pay off the local policeman to get away from a parking ticket. they all want to pay the rto to get a drivers license. thats the money that eventually feeds mayavati.

[flute]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

exactly.

a country gets the leaders it deserves. When delhi elects a shiela dixit ... they deserve to see a manu sharma go out on bail and kill a few more women. When they elect a Khodda (or whoever that cm is) they deserve to see them sell the country and pocket 4000 carores!

time after time they vote for criminals. Heck they even elected Azhar! all the power to them! they deserve their leaders they elect.

Mistake is on both sides. Electorate needs to demand better, but also the pool of politicians standing in an election are all corrupt sometimes. In such situations, rather than people refraining from voting, they at least need to vote the 'lesser thug' if you will.

disagree. Indian politicians are smart. They know what sells and what excites people. If and when they realize "development" is what gets peoples support, indian politician will deliver development.

Having no sqeaky clean candiate is just an excuse and an intelligent electorate will never stand behind such defeatist excuses, afterall, what is stopping a clean candidate from contesting elections? if a really good candidate stands in a constituency you think such good candidates will invariably win? A big NO, this good candidate WILL have to talk to electorate in terms of caste, creed, locality, family history etc. in order to win. Lok Satta provided clean alternative candidates across the state in AP, only for the electorate to go for same old corrupt congress MLAs and MPs. An intelligent electorate as alleged by Vincent would have simply gone Lok Satta way.

exactly. we get the leaders we deserve.

there is a general malaise in the electorate in india. not only is corruption accepted ..... infact i would say it is encouraged by the general population. everyone has a bone to pick with following the rules. everyone wants to pay off the local policeman to get away from a parking ticket. they all want to pay the rto to get a drivers license. thats the money that eventually feeds mayavati.

CPji, are you not contradicting yourself based on our earlier debate regarding corruption?
here you are saying everybody wants to pay off the local policeman but earlier you said they have no option, the change has to come from the top. You called my prescription as idealism and FL too agreed with you I think. Did you change your opinion?

[Cover Point]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

exactly.

a country gets the leaders it deserves. When delhi elects a shiela dixit ... they deserve to see a manu sharma go out on bail and kill a few more women. When they elect a Khodda (or whoever that cm is) they deserve to see them sell the country and pocket 4000 carores!

time after time they vote for criminals. Heck they even elected Azhar! all the power to them! they deserve their leaders they elect.

Mistake is on both sides. Electorate needs to demand better, but also the pool of politicians standing in an election are all corrupt sometimes. In such situations, rather than people refraining from voting, they at least need to vote the 'lesser thug' if you will.

disagree. Indian politicians are smart. They know what sells and what excites people. If and when they realize "development" is what gets peoples support, indian politician will deliver development.

Having no sqeaky clean candiate is just an excuse and an intelligent electorate will never stand behind such defeatist excuses, afterall, what is stopping a clean candidate from contesting elections? if a really good candidate stands in a constituency you think such good candidates will invariably win? A big NO, this good candidate WILL have to talk to electorate in terms of caste, creed, locality, family history etc. in order to win. Lok Satta provided clean alternative candidates across the state in AP, only for the electorate to go for same old corrupt congress MLAs and MPs. An intelligent electorate as alleged by Vincent would have simply gone Lok Satta way.

exactly. we get the leaders we deserve.

there is a general malaise in the electorate in india. not only is corruption accepted ..... infact i would say it is encouraged by the general population. everyone has a bone to pick with following the rules. everyone wants to pay off the local policeman to get away from a parking ticket. they all want to pay the rto to get a drivers license. thats the money that eventually feeds mayavati.

CPji, are you not contradicting yourself based on our earlier debate regarding corruption?
here you are saying everybody wants to pay off the local policeman but earlier you said they have no option, the change has to come from the top. You called my prescription as idealism and FL too agreed with you I think. Did you change your opinion?

dont remember sir. but people have to want the change. i dont think the general public can expect the politicians to be better than they are themselves.

[indcric]

It is easy to blame the people voting for a corrupt politician or for bribing to get things done.

Flute, did you ever try standing in an election? Did you ever canvas for Loksatta or some other honest individual in an election? Did you try to educate and influence at least 10 people to vote for Loksatta or some other honest individual? Can you guarantee that Loksatta JP will not indulge in corrupt practices after he comes into power? Did you ever go to an MRO office and get some certificate in one day without bribing?

I tried to convince 5 people to vote for Loksatta. Only one of them voted for Loksatta. It is difficult to convince, when you have no previous examples and evidences of an "honest politician". It seems people are thinking that the words "honest" and "politics" are contradictory to each other.

I got different answers from each one of them. One person asked about the guarantee that Loksatta will be free from corruption. One person ridiculed JP for resigning to an IAS post and trying to change this rotten political scenario. One person asked even if he somehow believes Loksatta will be different, can JP control this particular individual MLA from our constituency from taking bribes? One person said, even if he believes Loksatta & votes for Loksatta, most people do not vote for Loksatta, so my vote will go waste. What is the point in voting, when he doesn't win? If I go & vote for Congress, at least I will get Rs.500 or Rs.1000 per vote. When no body develops your constituency, settle for Rs. 500.

As you can see from the answers I got, people are ready to believe Loksatta. They just need some evidences of "honest politicians". Let JP prove that he is different and let him show the "development" and "transparency" in Kukatpally constituency and I am sure I can convince at least 20 people to vote for Loksatta in my own constituency.

Main problem with JP is that he doesn't talk the language most people understand. Learn from a Lalu or even KCR. I mean most people don't understand the meaning behind the terms like new generation politics, second freedom movement, surajya etc. BJP got into power just by the Advani's Rathyatra and Babri demolition and asking for a chance.

People are ready to believe, just show them some proofs. The fact that JP was elected from Kukatpally itself shows that people are ready to believe in right candidates and vote for them. But where are those honest politicians?

Second problem with JP is that he is targetting only educated & intelligent electorate. But most educated & intelligent people don't have time & interest to go to polling booth, stand in a long queue & vote. See the Congress, it targets other people, compensate them for the money they can earn in a day, and get them to vote for your party.

JP is not  building a good vote base of people who will vote for him always. He has to build the party organization properly. He has to choose right candidates & ask them to build the organization by inducting educated people who are willing to go into the public & educate the public using the public's language and convince them to vote for Loksatta.

People are ready to believe, if you can convince them with some proofs.

What did the honest Prime Ministers like Vajpayee & MMS do to change the corruption in politics? They had all the power to stop corruption at all levels. If they were tied by the poliitical equations to stop corruption at highest levels, what stopped them to eradicate corruption at the lower levels?

[WicketView]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

exactly.

a country gets the leaders it deserves. When delhi elects a shiela dixit ... they deserve to see a manu sharma go out on bail and kill a few more women. When they elect a Khodda (or whoever that cm is) they deserve to see them sell the country and pocket 4000 carores!

time after time they vote for criminals. Heck they even elected Azhar! all the power to them! they deserve their leaders they elect.

Mistake is on both sides. Electorate needs to demand better, but also the pool of politicians standing in an election are all corrupt sometimes. In such situations, rather than people refraining from voting, they at least need to vote the 'lesser thug' if you will.

disagree. Indian politicians are smart. They know what sells and what excites people. If and when they realize "development" is what gets peoples support, indian politician will deliver development.

Having no sqeaky clean candiate is just an excuse and an intelligent electorate will never stand behind such defeatist excuses, afterall, what is stopping a clean candidate from contesting elections? if a really good candidate stands in a constituency you think such good candidates will invariably win? A big NO, this good candidate WILL have to talk to electorate in terms of caste, creed, locality, family history etc. in order to win. Lok Satta provided clean alternative candidates across the state in AP, only for the electorate to go for same old corrupt congress MLAs and MPs. An intelligent electorate as alleged by Vincent would have simply gone Lok Satta way.

exactly. we get the leaders we deserve.

there is a general malaise in the electorate in india. not only is corruption accepted ..... infact i would say it is encouraged by the general population. everyone has a bone to pick with following the rules. everyone wants to pay off the local policeman to get away from a parking ticket. they all want to pay the rto to get a drivers license. thats the money that eventually feeds mayavati.

CPji, are you not contradicting yourself based on our earlier debate regarding corruption?
here you are saying everybody wants to pay off the local policeman but earlier you said they have no option, the change has to come from the top. You called my prescription as idealism and FL too agreed with you I think. Did you change your opinion?

dont remember sir. but people have to want the change. i dont think the general public can expect the politicians to be better than they are themselves.

You have a point, but people in general tend to be like this. Take the US for example. Obviously, no one will even dream of bribing the policeman issuing him a ticket, because the consequences are really bad. However, think about speeding rules ...how many people feel free to break those on a daily basis? There is, I agree, a difference in the morality of breaking a rule and bribing someone. But it seems that the main reason is that it is less likely to be caught and drastically punished.

[Cover Point]

WV, the punishment should fit the crime. if one speeds he pays a $100 fine. thats a fair punishment. as long as the policeman does not let a person go with $20 or something its fair.

In india too you can pay a fine of Rs 500 or some such .... people just choose to pay a 100 rs bribe ...... thats the issue here

[WicketView]

WV, the punishment should fit the crime. if one speeds he pays a $100 fine. thats a fair punishment. as long as the policeman does not let a person go with $20 or something its fair.

In india too you can pay a fine of Rs 500 or some such .... people just choose to pay a 100 rs bribe ...... thats the issue here

The 100 dollar fine is fine as a fair punishment. However, the reason most people speed as often as they do, is that they know that the police won't catch them. What I am saying is that people anywhere will cut corners by illegal parking or speeding if they know they can get away with it ... either because the police is not monitoring the situation or because they can pay a bribe.

[indcric]

The fault is not with politicians and corrupt officials. They are born to loot.

The fault is not with ignorant or uneducated people. Most often, they don't have a choice.

The fault is with "the educated & intelligent". What are we doing to change this? Are we educating enough people to vote for honest people? Are we educating enough people to resist the temptation to bribe & oppose it? Are we trying to do within our limits to do anything for a change in the mentality of public?  Try to influence at least 3 people and ask each one of them to influence 3 more people (Sorry, copied the idea from a movie).

The public will change. India will change.

Change doesn't come from vaccum. Change has to come from each one of us.

[flute]

It is easy to blame the people voting for a corrupt politician or for bribing to get things done.

Flute, did you ever try standing in an election? Did you ever canvas for Loksatta or some other honest individual in an election? Did you try to educate and influence at least 10 people to vote for Loksatta or some other honest individual? Can you guarantee that Loksatta JP will not indulge in corrupt practices after he comes into power? Did you ever go to an MRO office and get some certificate in one day without bribing?

I tried to convince 5 people to vote for Loksatta. Only one of them voted for Loksatta. It is difficult to convince, when you have no previous examples and evidences of an "honest politician". It seems people are thinking that the words "honest" and "politics" are contradictory to each other.

I got different answers from each one of them. One person asked about the guarantee that Loksatta will be free from corruption. One person ridiculed JP for resigning to an IAS post and trying to change this rotten political scenario. One person asked even if he somehow believes Loksatta will be different, can JP control this particular individual MLA from our constituency from taking bribes? One person said, even if he believes Loksatta & votes for Loksatta, most people do not vote for Loksatta, so my vote will go waste. What is the point in voting, when he doesn't win? If I go & vote for Congress, at least I will get Rs.500 or Rs.1000 per vote.

As you can see from the answers I got, people are ready to believe Loksatta. They just need some evidences of "honest politicians". Let JP prove that he is different and let him show the "development" and "transparency" in Kukatpally constituency and I am sure I can convince at least 20 people to vote for Loksatta in my own constituency.

Indcric, in fact I did contribute my time and money for Lok Satta and am involved actively in lok satta activities. I did obtain MRO certificates and other things without bribing but not in one day. But, things are not really that bad if you have principles. People, in fact young people, who never tried it, latch onto this cynism and take the easy way out and then complain. In my personal experience, it is possible to do things without paying bribe in India as long as you are willing to sacrifice your time a bit instead of sitting around and complaining.

As for evidence, it is true performance is important barometer but I think you are missing the point here. Those few people you talked to, aren't they screwed up in their thinking and priorities as electorate based on the type of questions they asked you?

one person asked about the guarantee that Loksatta will be free from corruption.

did any party give this guarantee? then why ask Lok Satta? Why are the agenda, constitution, the way candidates are picked etc. being ignored? Don't you think an intelligent voter will take note of such things instead of asking for proof of honesty? Don't you think the very question itself smacks of defeatist tendency? Voters in India still want rulers not legislators and executive. You vote and expect elected members to be honest and you ask for proof of honesty before voting, how stupid is that? You vote based on agenda, plans and party idealogy and inner party democracy, after voting as a citizen you keep this new bunch on their toes to push them to perform. Instead this fellow wants guarantees so that he can sleep and bribe his way as usual without performing his citizenship responsibilities. poof

One person ridiculed JP for resigning to an IAS post and trying to change this rotten political scenario.

I don't think we need to add credibility to such cynicism by responding to it. Do you think an intelligent voter will resort to such ridicule instead of rejoicing for the new option?

One person asked even if he somehow believes Loksatta will be different, can JP control this particular individual MLA from our constituency from taking bribes?

Again the same vote and sleep on your state, country attitude. WHY should JP control his MLA? what is the electorate going to do, eat and sleep? as long as we continue to have this attitude of we vote, it is done, you rule whatever way you want, we cannot be called intelligent electorate.

One person said, even if he believes Loksatta & votes for Loksatta, most people do not vote for Loksatta, so my vote will go waste.

This person does not understand the idea of setting the agenda using your vote, what can we say? he is willing to sell his vote, noway we can call him intelligent.

Not one question from above makes sense from an intelligent electorate perspective. People complain about lack of choice, now that the choice is there, they want iron clad proof of honesty which makes no sense. So, the bigger challenge before Lok Satta is not honesty certification, but rather it is electorate education to make them aware of democratic principles and responsibilities as a citizen.

The biggest block I found in talking about Lok Satta was the party fund all members have to contribute. People want others to sacrifice their life and family before they get up and do something. They are incredulous that a political party wants membership fee. If you are not willing to pay, where will you bring the change from? should we get some alien power with magic wand?

[flute]

especially when they are more intelligent than these politicians, which is almost always the case.

YOU SURE? 100%? wonder how a more intelligent electorate manages to get screwed over and over again only to bend over again for more?

exactly.

a country gets the leaders it deserves. When delhi elects a shiela dixit ... they deserve to see a manu sharma go out on bail and kill a few more women. When they elect a Khodda (or whoever that cm is) they deserve to see them sell the country and pocket 4000 carores!

time after time they vote for criminals. Heck they even elected Azhar! all the power to them! they deserve their leaders they elect.

Mistake is on both sides. Electorate needs to demand better, but also the pool of politicians standing in an election are all corrupt sometimes. In such situations, rather than people refraining from voting, they at least need to vote the 'lesser thug' if you will.

disagree. Indian politicians are smart. They know what sells and what excites people. If and when they realize "development" is what gets peoples support, indian politician will deliver development.

Having no sqeaky clean candiate is just an excuse and an intelligent electorate will never stand behind such defeatist excuses, afterall, what is stopping a clean candidate from contesting elections? if a really good candidate stands in a constituency you think such good candidates will invariably win? A big NO, this good candidate WILL have to talk to electorate in terms of caste, creed, locality, family history etc. in order to win. Lok Satta provided clean alternative candidates across the state in AP, only for the electorate to go for same old corrupt congress MLAs and MPs. An intelligent electorate as alleged by Vincent would have simply gone Lok Satta way.

exactly. we get the leaders we deserve.

there is a general malaise in the electorate in india. not only is corruption accepted ..... infact i would say it is encouraged by the general population. everyone has a bone to pick with following the rules. everyone wants to pay off the local policeman to get away from a parking ticket. they all want to pay the rto to get a drivers license. thats the money that eventually feeds mayavati.

CPji, are you not contradicting yourself based on our earlier debate regarding corruption?
here you are saying everybody wants to pay off the local policeman but earlier you said they have no option, the change has to come from the top. You called my prescription as idealism and FL too agreed with you I think. Did you change your opinion?

dont remember sir. but people have to want the change. i dont think the general public can expect the politicians to be better than they are themselves.

You have a point, but people in general tend to be like this. Take the US for example. Obviously, no one will even dream of bribing the policeman issuing him a ticket, because the consequences are really bad. However, think about speeding rules ...how many people feel free to break those on a daily basis? There is, I agree, a difference in the morality of breaking a rule and bribing someone. But it seems that the main reason is that it is less likely to be caught and drastically punished.

you are right about the speeding issue, but I don't think people all over are as flexible as Indians. Indian's outrage and breaking points are almost unknown. They rarely complain even about loss of life which is what emboldens the political class with each passing day. When they do reach breaking point, it usually manifests as violent goondagiri rather than non-violent democracy enriching , system enriching protest.

[indcric]

Flute

I am not saying they are intelligent. If they were intelligent, I didn't have to try hard to convince them. I was only saying that most people in India think that way, their mindset is tuned that way, because of the political contamination started by Congress and the british rule.

What I am trying to say is that, the problem is not with the people. Not many people understand what Loksatta stands for, what JP says etc. The problem is with the "educated & intelligent" people who don't contribute their time to educating their relatives & neighbors. If every educated person spends at least half an hour with each of their relatives/neighbors before election day, he will at least be able to convert 5% of them to vote for honest people.

Let JP do what he says in Kukatpally, it will make it easy for thousands of these educated people to convince at least 40% more of their relatives/neighbors to vote for Loksatta. 45% is enough vote for any party to come into power.

The onus is now on the very rare honest politicians & the educated people. It is not right to blame the uneducated & ignorant people. Whenever somebody starts a movement and convinces them in the language they understand, people are always ready to participate. Example: BJP coming to power. JP winning Kukatpally. Lakhs of innocent people (not all of them blind fans, most of them just had some hope) who believed Chiranjeevi and voted for PRP thinking that he will cleanse the politics.

[flute]

Flute

I am not saying they are intelligent. If they were intelligent, I didn't have to try hard to convince them. I was only saying that most people in India think that way, their mindset is tuned that way, because of the political contamination started by Congress and the british rule.

What I am trying to say is that, the problem is not with the people. Not many people understand what Loksatta stands for, what JP says etc. The problem is with the "educated & intelligent" people who don't contribute their time to educating their relatives & neighbors. If every educated person spends at least half an hour with each of their relatives/neighbors before election day, he will at least be able to convert 5% of them to vote for honest people.

Let JP do what he says in Kukatpally, it will make it easy for thousands of these educated people to convince at least 40% more of their relatives/neighbors to vote for Loksatta. 45% is enough vote for any party to come into power.

The onus is now on the very rare honest politicians & the educated people. It is not right to blame the uneducated & ignorant people. Whenever somebody starts a movement and convinces them in the language they understand, people are always ready to participate. Example: BJP coming to power. JP winning Kukatpally. Lakhs of innocent people (not all of them blind fans, most of them just had some hope) who believed Chiranjeevi and voted for PRP thinking that he will cleanse the politics.

not sure if your usage of "educated" means somebody who went to school and college. If it is, then in fact , they are the people who need education and awareness more than anybody else.

but yes, I do agree with your broad points of onus  being on people who are aware and see the issue clearly to spread the word.

[indcric]

Flute

I am not saying they are intelligent. If they were intelligent, I didn't have to try hard to convince them. I was only saying that most people in India think that way, their mindset is tuned that way, because of the political contamination started by Congress and the british rule.

What I am trying to say is that, the problem is not with the people. Not many people understand what Loksatta stands for, what JP says etc. The problem is with the "educated & intelligent" people who don't contribute their time to educating their relatives & neighbors. If every educated person spends at least half an hour with each of their relatives/neighbors before election day, he will at least be able to convert 5% of them to vote for honest people.

Let JP do what he says in Kukatpally, it will make it easy for thousands of these educated people to convince at least 40% more of their relatives/neighbors to vote for Loksatta. 45% is enough vote for any party to come into power.

The onus is now on the very rare honest politicians & the educated people. It is not right to blame the uneducated & ignorant people. Whenever somebody starts a movement and convinces them in the language they understand, people are always ready to participate. Example: BJP coming to power. JP winning Kukatpally. Lakhs of innocent people (not all of them blind fans, most of them just had some hope) who believed Chiranjeevi and voted for PRP thinking that he will cleanse the politics.

not sure if your usage of "educated" means somebody who went to school and college. If it is, then in fact , they are the people who need education and awareness more than anybody else.

but yes, I do agree with your broad points of onus  being on people who are aware and see the issue clearly to spread the word.

My usage of educated is not for people who went  to school and college. I am talking about people who are aware of the evils in the society and what needs to be done to change it.

By the way, I just came across this news and this piece of critical observation.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/11/17/corruption.list.somalia/index.html

"When essential institutions are weak or non-existent, corruption spirals out of control and the plundering of public resources feeds insecurity and impunity," the group said.

On the other hand, countries that fared well in the survey have oversight to stem corruption. These include a well-performing judiciary, an independent media, and vigorous law enforcement, it said.

India lacks all the 3 in my opinion.

NO case is resolved within a short time frame. Lot of judges can be bought.

Media these days is not independent in a true sense. Most regional news papers have their own political affiliations and hide/restate the facts to suit them. Often media concentrates on sensational news than the useful and informative news and pointing out & bringing out corrupt practices.

Law Enforcement is not independent of politics. It is fully corrupt. Not just the police, but vigilance, excise, CBI, ACB all are corrupt.

This is where I blame Vajpayee & MMS. They could have changed/created the mechanism of overseeing each department (in a top-down fashion). They could have done it, if they put significant effort.

MMS is now trying to create more courts to provide speedy justice. He is also trying to make a legislation on forcing the judges to declare assets and to bring the corrupt judges to trial.

But what did he do in his first term? What happened to the proposal of making the police department & CBI independent of elected politicians?

[WicketView]

...
you are right about the speeding issue, but I don't think people all over are as flexible as Indians. Indian's outrage and breaking points are almost unknown. They rarely complain even about loss of life which is what emboldens the political class with each passing day. When they do reach breaking point, it usually manifests as violent goondagiri rather than non-violent democracy enriching , system enriching protest.

I guess we have left the topic of the thread far behind and maybe should be split ... but yes, I agree with you on the fact. What I am trying to say is that I think one must try to understand the reason for this difference in 'flexibility' as you put it, because that is the key to change. If you take that difference as a given fact then it follows that no change is possible.

[sudzz]

Having read all that has been said about politicians, I think we are missing the point totally.

1. People are not as ignorant as they are made out to be
 
2. People actually vote for safety more than anything else

3. People know X is corrupt or Y is a alchoholic etc etc but they still vote for her/him because they know that these people can get things done

4. People are inherently sceptical about new people, people carrying the honesty plank, people who are completely independent because every voter understands that politicians are in a eco system and the same food chain logic applies even in politics as it does in other walks of life.

5. Finally it all comes down to at least some semblance of track record -after 60 years of independence people have established a pattern even to corruption and therefore there is a base level thats become acceptable therefore the same goons will keep coming back irrespective of Lok Satta or others.

[keep-it-cool]

Moved to ETC - hardly about cricket.

[ramshorns]

Moved to ETC - hardly about cricket.

Agree. 

On top of that anytime we discuss about the Indian poltical system it is redundant.   It is a waste of time.  Nothing  changes in a zillion years.

[Cover Point]

Moved to ETC - hardly about cricket.

i disagree .... one word Azhar!

[keep-it-cool]

Moved to ETC - hardly about cricket.

i disagree .... one word Azhar!

there is sachin also for that matter ...

[flute]

1. People are not as ignorant as they are made out to be

is it just a gut feeling or can you provide some instances of enlightened voting anywhere in India? I hope you are not trying to be politically correct. Whatever is said about electorate ignorance is with lot of evidence over years of voting pattern. Can you deny that indian voters strongly consider caste in voting? can you deny wide spread cash for vote practice?
can you deny voters falling for cheap tricks like color TVs and 2kg rice and free electricity?

2. People actually vote for safety more than anything else

what safety are you talking about?
again any insight as to why you think they vote for safety?

most of the reports, analysis seem to suggest voting for basic needs roti,kapda aur makhan. But indian voter is not educated or smart enough about democracy and its workings. They fall easy pray to promises like color TV, 2 kg rice etc. These promises directly address voter's needs but a smart voter will immediately realize that it is a total con scheme. How ridiculous is it to actually offer color TVs and voters actually voting for TV?  How ridiculous is it that Rajiv *hi got 400+ seats in 84?

3. People know X is corrupt or Y is a alchoholic etc etc but they still vote for her/him because they know that these people can get things done

true but exactly there in lies the problem.

For people, getting things done is something like karunanidhi is corrupt and has huge soft corner for his kith and kin, but he gets things done, atleast he gives us color TV, that jaya amma did not give us that, so lets us vote for karuna kind of thinking. If you think that is smart voting, then I have nothing more to say.

It is stupid of them to set their expectations low. "Things get done"? serious?
The endemic problems we face are mainly because the type of people we elect have no idea how to get things done in the interest of the people.

"Things get done"? thinking is actually biggest problem because I elect my MLA to predominantly legislate, why should he actually do things? what is the police, beaurocracy doing? Agreed in Indian democracy there is no clear division between executive and legislature, but still even in our system, MLA/MP role is predominantly to legislate not execute. Chief minister should  predominantly legislate not rule.

In fact, a huge huge majority of voters in India do not start with the thinking that what they expect from the Govt. is their RIGHT, they still think in terms of rulers and subjects. In a democracy there is no room for subjects. This thinking is still to sink into our voters, even in urban areas. It is our biggest bane but I digress.

4. People are inherently sceptical about new people, people carrying the honesty plank, people who are completely independent because every voter understands that politicians are in a eco system and the same food chain logic applies even in politics as it does in other walks of life.

again I do not agree with this thinking and it is quite clearly cynicism because of 60+ years of corruption. It is not intelligent way of voting.

Walking into a govt. office and getting things done in a timely manner withotu bribe or influence is our right and we should expect it as a minimum, otherwise there is no meaning to our democracy. In fact, this was working quite ok in the first 15 yrs only to deteriorate because of lack of demand/expectation from people.

Any govt. related activity right from tenders to low level govt. office for a minor certificate should and can be transparent. Any transgressions which come out should be punished to a large extent. Above is not utopia, it is a minimum requirement and for people to not demand/expect it and think it is not possible is short selling their vote and it is not smart.

5. Finally it all comes down to at least some semblance of track record -after 60 years of independence people have established a pattern even to corruption and therefore there is a base level thats become acceptable therefore the same goons will keep coming back irrespective of Lok Satta or others.

what track record? what base level? looting of India is only increasing every passing year, what base level are the political class accountable to? It is getting so ridiculous now that it is just unbelievable. I think it is now almost equivalent to what the British did to India in terms of looting, same as in british raj, the loot is leaving the country.

I think we will not get anywhere if we try to justify/explain away the caste ridden, stupid voting patterns of Indian voter. The need of the hour is to spread awareness and educate masses about their rights. It is a long and slow process but that is the only way. To think our masses are not ignorant is to close our eyes to reality. It may sound arrogant , so be it, but there is no point in closing our eyes to reality staring in our eyes election after election.

But in all this doom and gloom, there is one silver lining which might bring about a change. Indian economy is expanding at a rapid pace and in about 10-15 yrs, our middle class will increase substantially and then the election issues can no longer be about color TV or free electricity. Once middle class aspirations take center stage, things will start to change very rapidly IMO.

[flute]

Moved to ETC - hardly about cricket.

Agree. 

On top of that anytime we discuss about the Indian poltical system it is redundant.   It is a waste of time.  Nothing  changes in a zillion years.

as opposed to indian cricket system which changes rapidly based on what we discuss here huh? discussion about cricket adds value and is not waste because things change in like million yrs? let people discuss whatever they want, why discourage just because you have nothing to add?

[ramshorns]

Moved to ETC - hardly about cricket.

Agree. 

On top of that anytime we discuss about the Indian poltical system it is redundant.   It is a waste of time.  Nothing  changes in a zillion years.

as opposed to indian cricket system which changes rapidly based on what we discuss here huh? discussion about cricket adds value and is not waste because things change in like million yrs? let people discuss whatever they want, why discourage just because you have nothing to add?

This is a cricket discussion group.   So it is natural for people to expect to talk cricket weather or not things change based on what people weigh in.

For the rest of the issues like Indian politics there is a etc. section and people can say what they want there.  No one is stopping anyone but they need to come to this etc. corner for things like that.  Appropriate one would think.

It is irrelevent here if you or someone else has something to add or not. 
 

[flute]

Moved to ETC - hardly about cricket.

Agree. 

On top of that anytime we discuss about the Indian poltical system it is redundant.   It is a waste of time.  Nothing  changes in a zillion years.

as opposed to indian cricket system which changes rapidly based on what we discuss here huh? discussion about cricket adds value and is not waste because things change in like million yrs? let people discuss whatever they want, why discourage just because you have nothing to add?

This is a cricket discussion group.   So it is natural for people to expect to talk cricket weather or not things change based on what people weigh in.

For the rest of the issues like Indian politics there is a etc. section and people can say what they want there.  No one is stopping anyone but they need to come to this etc. corner for things like that.  Appropriate one would think.

It is irrelevent here if you or someone else has something to add or not.

I did not object to moving to etc folder..your original post came across as discouragement of discussion even in etc. section hence my post.