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[12th_Man]

Gambhir clears fitness test

Gautam Gambhir has passed his fitness test and has been cleared to play in the Champions Trophy starting on September 22. Gambhir suffered a groin injury during a domestic match last month and aggravated the injury during training on the eve of India's first match against New Zealand in the Compaq Cup in Colombo.

Gambhir was advised rest for 10 days and returned home, he then underwent rehabilitation at the National Cricket Academy in Bangalore and was pronounced fit after trials in Mumbai today.

Captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni said he was pleased with Gambhir's recovery.

"It's a relief that Gambhir is back because he solves the problem of opening," Dhoni said.

"We have had three players in the opening slot - Sachin Tendulkar, Virender Sehwag and Gambhir - but with Sehwag out due to injury the opening pair has been a problem.

"Now that Gambhir is fit, it augurs well for us."

India are due to leave tomorrow for Johannesburg and will take on Pakistan in their first match on September 26.


http://cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/19880/Gambhir-clears-fitness-test

[keep-it-cool]

Good news. This tournament will be a test for Gambhir. He'll be facing some good attacks and teams now have had a chance to study them. I hope he does well.

[ramshorns]

“The fielding standard has gone down, whatever the reason may be. We are missing run-outs, dropping a few catches. The team won’t really improve overnight. I am looking for gradual progress so that we can save about 30 runs. It can make a huge difference in a close match,” he said.

This is the comment I picked up from MSD before the departure I think as was reported in 'The Hindu'. 

Is this what you want to hear from a skipper evaluating his team.  Needs a good kick in the rear end all of them if that is the case.

[dlee1]

dhoni himself has been a culprit..misses many run outs himself.

[sudzz]

“The fielding standard has gone down, whatever the reason may be. We are missing run-outs, dropping a few catches. The team won’t really improve overnight. I am looking for gradual progress so that we can save about 30 runs. It can make a huge difference in a close match,” he said.

This is the comment I picked up from MSD before the departure I think as was reported in 'The Hindu'. 

Is this what you want to hear from a skipper evaluating his team.  Needs a good kick in the rear end all of them if that is the case.

At least a very honest assessment of the team and a very straight opinion. What must be actually transpiring within the team is not for us to know, I feel since he talks straight to media he would be obliged to do the same within the team and that must be causing enough heat by itself.

[ramshorns]

“The fielding standard has gone down, whatever the reason may be. We are missing run-outs, dropping a few catches. The team won’t really improve overnight. I am looking for gradual progress so that we can save about 30 runs. It can make a huge difference in a close match,” he said.

This is the comment I picked up from MSD before the departure I think as was reported in 'The Hindu'. 

Is this what you want to hear from a skipper evaluating his team.  Needs a good kick in the rear end all of them if that is the case.

At least a very honest assessment of the team and a very straight opinion. What must be actually transpiring within the team is not for us to know, I feel since he talks straight to media he would be obliged to do the same within the team and that must be causing enough heat by itself.

Talk.  What good does it do? I do not put too much stock into all this straight talk business.  If he thinks that a Tendulkar or a Dravid is a liability on the field and their overall contribution(Batting + Fielding) is not up to the mark he should bench them or get players who he thinks better fits the billing.  It is not as if India lacks the players to replace a Tendulkar or a Dravid in the ODI level.  It is matter of giving some of these guys chances and sticking with him.  This is not Test cricket for god's sake.  Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.  It is only that we are hung up on certain players in India where as successful teams like Australia easily part with their players be it Gilchrist or Hayden or a Bevan all better accomplished as far as team results are concerned.  Bottom line here is if Dhoni feels he does not have players to get the job done in the fielding arena he needs to walk the talk and have those players replaced with fitter and hungrier players.   That is the way I see it. 

[RicePlateReddy]

Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.

1 Champions Trophy (2002) jointly shared with Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka were very lucky, twice over that the match got washed out. Bottom line, we won.

1 Champions Trophy final (2000) which India lost due to Cairns' heroics.

1 World Cup final (2003)

[ramshorns]

Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.

1 Champions Trophy (2002) jointly shared with Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka were very lucky, twice over that the match got washed out. Bottom line, we won.

1 Champions Trophy final (2000) which India lost due to Cairns' heroics.

1 World Cup final (2003)

So what does that mean?  Why not the much touted Tendulkar come up with such heriocs like Cairns in that 2003 final for example if he is supposed to be that great and better than every one else as some of his fanatics here make it sound like.   We have what 430 games played by this man and he does not even have to worry about his place because he has a gauranteed spot no matter what.  One would expect players like that to play more relaxed in such a scenario and in big games like the WC final or a must win game vs SL in the 2007 WC for us to qualify to the next round.  Not apparently with Tendulkar seems like.

[Cover Point]

Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.

1 Champions Trophy (2002) jointly shared with Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka were very lucky, twice over that the match got washed out. Bottom line, we won.

1 Champions Trophy final (2000) which India lost due to Cairns' heroics.

1 World Cup final (2003)

So what does that mean?  Why not the much touted Tendulkar come up with such heriocs like Cairns in that 2003 final for example if he is supposed to be that great and better than every one else as some of his fanatics here make it sound like.   We have what 430 games played by this man and he does not even have to worry about his place because he has a gauranteed spot no matter what.  One would expect players like that to play more relaxed in such a scenario and in big games like the WC final or a must win game vs SL in the 2007 WC for us to qualify to the next round.  Not apparently with Tendulkar seems like.

in the 2000 champions trophy final http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66179.html

Tendulkar scored 69 and ganguly scored a 100. they did their job and took the team to a very creditable 264. which was a decent total for that time. this was despite the fact that the middle order did not do much acceleration else we should have a higher total. it was the bowlers who gave it all away despite having NZ at 132/5. you cant blame sachin for that one.

again in 2003 final .... chasing 359 .... in those days that was never done ..... that was still early 2000's and even I was 15 pounds lighter! Today 359 does not sound as daunting but in those days no team got even a 1% chance of chasing that total down. To blame a Tendulkar or dravid for that is the same as we might as well blame Laxman for that. Afterall he could have done a little more jogging in his early days ... gotten a bit fitter to make the team. That one piece of laziness caused India to lose that cup. dont you agree

[12th_Man]

Smith tearing WI apart and SL pinning Pak back.
http://www.cricinfo.com/iccct2009/engine/current/match/424424.html

http://www.cricinfo.com/iccct2009/engine/current/match/424425.html

[RicePlateReddy]

If he thinks that a Tendulkar or a Dravid is a liability on the field and their overall contribution(Batting + Fielding) is not up to the mark he should bench them or get players who he thinks better fits the billing. It is not as if India lacks the players to replace a Tendulkar or a Dravid in the ODI level.  It is matter of giving some of these guys chances and sticking with him.  This is not Test cricket for god's sake.  Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.  It is only that we are hung up on certain players in India where as successful teams like Australia easily part with their players be it Gilchrist or Hayden or a Bevan all better accomplished as far as team results are concerned.  Bottom line here is if Dhoni feels he does not have players to get the job done in the fielding arena he needs to walk the talk and have those players replaced with fitter and hungrier players.   That is the way I see it.

How did you infer that Dhoni's fielding concerns have to do with Dravid and Tendulkar?

This statement was made after India's sloppy fielding effort in the final. 2 catches dropped and 3 runs outs missed. Dhoni himself was a culprit in 2 run outs, Yuvraj was the other. For the catches it was Kohli and Yusuf Pathan. Neither Dravid nor Tendulkar had anything to do with the sloppiness.

[12th_Man]

If he thinks that a Tendulkar or a Dravid is a liability on the field and their overall contribution(Batting + Fielding) is not up to the mark he should bench them or get players who he thinks better fits the billing. It is not as if India lacks the players to replace a Tendulkar or a Dravid in the ODI level.  It is matter of giving some of these guys chances and sticking with him.  This is not Test cricket for god's sake.  Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.  It is only that we are hung up on certain players in India where as successful teams like Australia easily part with their players be it Gilchrist or Hayden or a Bevan all better accomplished as far as team results are concerned.  Bottom line here is if Dhoni feels he does not have players to get the job done in the fielding arena he needs to walk the talk and have those players replaced with fitter and hungrier players.   That is the way I see it.

How did you infer that Dhoni's fielding concerns have to do with Dravid and Tendulkar?

This statement was made after India's sloppy fielding effort in the final. 2 catches dropped and 3 runs outs missed. Dhoni himself was a culprit in 2 run outs, Yuvraj was the other. For the catches it was Kohli and Yusuf Pathan. Neither Dravid nor Tendulkar had anything to do with the sloppiness.

To add to your statments, VK and YP are among couple best fielders. I haven't heard much about's SRT's sloppy fieldings in past untill our frind Rams apprised us.

[ramshorns]

If he thinks that a Tendulkar or a Dravid is a liability on the field and their overall contribution(Batting + Fielding) is not up to the mark he should bench them or get players who he thinks better fits the billing. It is not as if India lacks the players to replace a Tendulkar or a Dravid in the ODI level.  It is matter of giving some of these guys chances and sticking with him.  This is not Test cricket for god's sake.  Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.  It is only that we are hung up on certain players in India where as successful teams like Australia easily part with their players be it Gilchrist or Hayden or a Bevan all better accomplished as far as team results are concerned.  Bottom line here is if Dhoni feels he does not have players to get the job done in the fielding arena he needs to walk the talk and have those players replaced with fitter and hungrier players.   That is the way I see it.

How did you infer that Dhoni's fielding concerns have to do with Dravid and Tendulkar?

This statement was made after India's sloppy fielding effort in the final. 2 catches dropped and 3 runs outs missed. Dhoni himself was a culprit in 2 run outs, Yuvraj was the other. For the catches it was Kohli and Yusuf Pathan. Neither Dravid nor Tendulkar had anything to do with the sloppiness.

I think no skipper will be naive enough to pick on a team based on 2-3 dropped catches in a game.  Read his statement carefully again.  He genuinely feels this team does not have sharp fielders and to me Tendulkar who cannot throw from the deep on a consistent basis because of a bad shoulder which he will never reveal about nor Dravid who is electric by any stretch of the imagination are part of the problem as I read it and I agree with that.    Dropped catches are part of the problem too and as is the ground fielding and the sum total is a medicore fielding unit.   Tendulkar and Dravid are definitely part of the problem IMO when one were to just focus on fielding overall.   It is much more than just holding on to the catches that come your way if you are to beat the Aussies or SA's at their best.

[ramshorns]

If he thinks that a Tendulkar or a Dravid is a liability on the field and their overall contribution(Batting + Fielding) is not up to the mark he should bench them or get players who he thinks better fits the billing. It is not as if India lacks the players to replace a Tendulkar or a Dravid in the ODI level.  It is matter of giving some of these guys chances and sticking with him.  This is not Test cricket for god's sake.  Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.  It is only that we are hung up on certain players in India where as successful teams like Australia easily part with their players be it Gilchrist or Hayden or a Bevan all better accomplished as far as team results are concerned.  Bottom line here is if Dhoni feels he does not have players to get the job done in the fielding arena he needs to walk the talk and have those players replaced with fitter and hungrier players.   That is the way I see it.

How did you infer that Dhoni's fielding concerns have to do with Dravid and Tendulkar?

This statement was made after India's sloppy fielding effort in the final. 2 catches dropped and 3 runs outs missed. Dhoni himself was a culprit in 2 run outs, Yuvraj was the other. For the catches it was Kohli and Yusuf Pathan. Neither Dravid nor Tendulkar had anything to do with the sloppiness.

To add to your statments, VK and YP are among couple best fielders. I haven't heard much about's SRT's sloppy fieldings in past untill our frind Rams apprised us.

Read the above post for my POV where I tried to break it down in detail.

[ramshorns]

Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.

1 Champions Trophy (2002) jointly shared with Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka were very lucky, twice over that the match got washed out. Bottom line, we won.

1 Champions Trophy final (2000) which India lost due to Cairns' heroics.

1 World Cup final (2003)

So what does that mean?  Why not the much touted Tendulkar come up with such heriocs like Cairns in that 2003 final for example if he is supposed to be that great and better than every one else as some of his fanatics here make it sound like.   We have what 430 games played by this man and he does not even have to worry about his place because he has a gauranteed spot no matter what.  One would expect players like that to play more relaxed in such a scenario and in big games like the WC final or a must win game vs SL in the 2007 WC for us to qualify to the next round.  Not apparently with Tendulkar seems like.

in the 2000 champions trophy final http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66179.html

Tendulkar scored 69 and ganguly scored a 100. they did their job and took the team to a very creditable 264. which was a decent total for that time. this was despite the fact that the middle order did not do much acceleration else we should have a higher total. it was the bowlers who gave it all away despite having NZ at 132/5. you cant blame sachin for that one.

again in 2003 final .... chasing 359 .... in those days that was never done ..... that was still early 2000's and even I was 15 pounds lighter! Today 359 does not sound as daunting but in those days no team got even a 1% chance of chasing that total down. To blame a Tendulkar or dravid for that is the same as we might as well blame Laxman for that. Afterall he could have done a little more jogging in his early days ... gotten a bit fitter to make the team. That one piece of laziness caused India to lose that cup. dont you agree

That is why if that team which had all these 10k stars managed to win their share of the finals we would not have to dissect each game and wonder what if?   We can keep on finding excuses but the memories of these stars letting down the team and the fans far out weigh what they really accomplished as a team in the ODI arena as opposed to Tests where they won some really big games in the last 9 or so years.  Wouldn't you agree.

[Cover Point]

Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.

1 Champions Trophy (2002) jointly shared with Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka were very lucky, twice over that the match got washed out. Bottom line, we won.

1 Champions Trophy final (2000) which India lost due to Cairns' heroics.

1 World Cup final (2003)

So what does that mean?  Why not the much touted Tendulkar come up with such heriocs like Cairns in that 2003 final for example if he is supposed to be that great and better than every one else as some of his fanatics here make it sound like.   We have what 430 games played by this man and he does not even have to worry about his place because he has a gauranteed spot no matter what.  One would expect players like that to play more relaxed in such a scenario and in big games like the WC final or a must win game vs SL in the 2007 WC for us to qualify to the next round.  Not apparently with Tendulkar seems like.

in the 2000 champions trophy final http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66179.html

Tendulkar scored 69 and ganguly scored a 100. they did their job and took the team to a very creditable 264. which was a decent total for that time. this was despite the fact that the middle order did not do much acceleration else we should have a higher total. it was the bowlers who gave it all away despite having NZ at 132/5. you cant blame sachin for that one.

again in 2003 final .... chasing 359 .... in those days that was never done ..... that was still early 2000's and even I was 15 pounds lighter! Today 359 does not sound as daunting but in those days no team got even a 1% chance of chasing that total down. To blame a Tendulkar or dravid for that is the same as we might as well blame Laxman for that. Afterall he could have done a little more jogging in his early days ... gotten a bit fitter to make the team. That one piece of laziness caused India to lose that cup. dont you agree

That is why if that team which had all these 10k stars managed to win their share of the finals we would not have to dissect each game and wonder what if?   We can keep on finding excuses but the memories of these stars letting down the team and the fans far out weigh what they really accomplished as a team in the ODI arena as opposed to Tests where they won some really big games in the last 9 or so years.  Wouldn't you agree.

we all would love our team to do far better than they did. But there are some games where there are genuine reasons and others where you can call excuses.

To blame any of the maharathis for THOSE games .... atleast the ones you pointed out .... is wrong. Heck EVEN I wont even blame GANGULY for them. Point is in atleast the examples  you pointed out the maharathis did their job. Its a team game and other around them flat out failed. 

We have to differentiate between serious criticism vs just riding some players. For example I blame Ganguly for global warming. Thats a fair statement. But we all know it is not just his fault. The hot air from his singing and dancing is only part of the reason for it

In seriousness we can blame the team for being inconsistent over their tenure. But we never had the kind of support around them as the aussies have had to build that level of consistency. Its easy to be disappointed with our stars and I am sure Sachin would stand up and take blame for many games where he did not perform.  But its unfair specially when we are blaming them for games where they could not do anything. Once the opposition has scored 359 ... what did you expect Sachin to do? Play cautiously and score a gavaskar type inning? He had to go after the bowling and it just did not come off. I wont blame him for that. That game belongs to the bolwers led by our very own Javelin bhai.

To put this in perspective what was our win % during Vishy's career? For the longest time we had the best batsmen (gavaskar and vishy) playing together and what were the numbers for us then? Were we the number one team in the world? were we even close? No. They just did not have the support. Should they be called crappy players due to that? 

[ramshorns]

Besides how many WC's or Champion trophies did we win with Tendulkar and Dravid I ask for us to miss them.

1 Champions Trophy (2002) jointly shared with Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka were very lucky, twice over that the match got washed out. Bottom line, we won.

1 Champions Trophy final (2000) which India lost due to Cairns' heroics.

1 World Cup final (2003)

So what does that mean?  Why not the much touted Tendulkar come up with such heriocs like Cairns in that 2003 final for example if he is supposed to be that great and better than every one else as some of his fanatics here make it sound like.   We have what 430 games played by this man and he does not even have to worry about his place because he has a gauranteed spot no matter what.  One would expect players like that to play more relaxed in such a scenario and in big games like the WC final or a must win game vs SL in the 2007 WC for us to qualify to the next round.  Not apparently with Tendulkar seems like.

in the 2000 champions trophy final http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66179.html

Tendulkar scored 69 and ganguly scored a 100. they did their job and took the team to a very creditable 264. which was a decent total for that time. this was despite the fact that the middle order did not do much acceleration else we should have a higher total. it was the bowlers who gave it all away despite having NZ at 132/5. you cant blame sachin for that one.

again in 2003 final .... chasing 359 .... in those days that was never done ..... that was still early 2000's and even I was 15 pounds lighter! Today 359 does not sound as daunting but in those days no team got even a 1% chance of chasing that total down. To blame a Tendulkar or dravid for that is the same as we might as well blame Laxman for that. Afterall he could have done a little more jogging in his early days ... gotten a bit fitter to make the team. That one piece of laziness caused India to lose that cup. dont you agree

That is why if that team which had all these 10k stars managed to win their share of the finals we would not have to dissect each game and wonder what if?   We can keep on finding excuses but the memories of these stars letting down the team and the fans far out weigh what they really accomplished as a team in the ODI arena as opposed to Tests where they won some really big games in the last 9 or so years.  Wouldn't you agree.

we all would love our team to do far better than they did. But there are some games where there are genuine reasons and others where you can call excuses.

To blame any of the maharathis for THOSE games .... atleast the ones you pointed out .... is wrong. Heck EVEN I wont even blame GANGULY for them. Point is in atleast the examples  you pointed out the maharathis did their job. Its a team game and other around them flat out failed. 

We have to differentiate between serious criticism vs just riding some players. For example I blame Ganguly for global warming. Thats a fair statement. But we all know it is not just his fault. The hot air from his singing and dancing is only part of the reason for it

In seriousness we can blame the team for being inconsistent over their tenure. But we never had the kind of support around them as the aussies have had to build that level of consistency. Its easy to be disappointed with our stars and I am sure Sachin would stand up and take blame for many games where he did not perform.  But its unfair specially when we are blaming them for games where they could not do anything. Once the opposition has scored 359 ... what did you expect Sachin to do? Play cautiously and score a gavaskar type inning? He had to go after the bowling and it just did not come off. I wont blame him for that. That game belongs to the bolwers led by our very own Javelin bhai.

You are entitled to your views and that is fine.

I have mine and pretty well justified when I point fingers at Tendulkar's exploits in most of the finals.  He to me is not a difference maker as can be made out for the number of big games won by India having a player with 15k runs and 430 games and never even worth considered to be dropped.  One expects better results which seemed to have only recently improved under Dhoni.

Also it is just chickening out saying that 359 is a mean total to get to.  Everyone gets that and knows where the blame goes outside of Tendulkar.   But still if this team won a chunk of other big games one would not have to question the team's mental toughness which is pretty obvious in the 18 or 19 finals they failed to clinch in ODI's.  Also one more thing keeping the WC2003 final aside what happended to the 2007 WC chase in a must win game against SL(chasing less than 250) that would have made us qualify for the next round.   I mean where does it end.   It is easy to get carried away by the records.  I for one am not.  I say where are the big results or our share of trophies for the number of them we play or played since 2000.

To put this in perspective what was our win % during Vishy's career? For the longest time we had the best batsmen (gavaskar and vishy) playing together and what were the numbers for us then? Were we the number one team in the world? were we even close? No. They just did not have the support. Should they be called crappy players due to that?

I thought Vishy was not voted by many here as a great batsman as they did with Tendulkar.   If Tendulkar is that great why is the team that had him have their share of wins in big games even if it is a team game.  How cum he never inspired his team mates and willed them.  Is it a coincidence Dhoni took a team without Tendulkar and won a 20-20 cup.  A fair question to ask.  All of a sudden when the time comes for someone to blame Tendulkar it becomes a team game and if not he is the man he is the automatic he is the one to be never dropped or asked to retire after the 2007 WC in the lines of Gilly and Hayden all great players who saw better success.

CP looks like we look at this issue little different when it comes to Tendulkar and ODI's.

[Cover Point]

You are entitled to your views and that is fine.

I have mine and pretty well justified when I point fingers at Tendulkar's exploits in most of the finals.  He to me is not a difference maker as can be made out for the number of big games won by India having a player with 15k runs and 430 games and never even worth considered to be dropped.  One expects better results which seemed to have only recently improved under Dhoni.

Also it is just chickening out saying that 359 is a mean total to get to.  Everyone gets that and knows where the blame goes outside of Tendulkar.   But still if this team won a chunk of other big games one would not have to question the team's mental toughness which is pretty obvious in the 18 or 19 finals they failed to clinch in ODI's.  Also one more thing keeping the WC2003 final aside what happended to the 2007 WC chase in a must win game against SL(chasing less than 250) that would have made us qualify for the next round.   I mean where does it end.   It is easy to get carried away by the records.  I for one am not.  I say where are the big results or our share of trophies for the number of them we play or played since 2000.

To put this in perspective what was our win % during Vishy's career? For the longest time we had the best batsmen (gavaskar and vishy) playing together and what were the numbers for us then? Were we the number one team in the world? were we even close? No. They just did not have the support. Should they be called crappy players due to that?

I thought Vishy was not voted by many here as a great batsman as they did with Tendulkar.   If Tendulkar is that great why is the team that had him have their share of wins in big games even if it is a team game.  How cum he never inspired his team mates and willed them.  Is it a coincidence Dhoni took a team without Tendulkar and won a 20-20 cup.  A fair question to ask.  All of a sudden when the time comes for someone to blame Tendulkar it becomes a team game and if not he is the man he is the automatic he is the one to be never dropped or asked to retire after the 2007 WC in the lines of Gilly and Hayden all great players who saw better success.

CP looks like we look at this issue little different when it comes to Tendulkar and ODI's.

i am not that enamored by tendulkar myself. you  know i blamed him as much for 2007 world cup loss as anyone else. His selfishness for not wanting to play in the middle order is well documented (by me).

but lets come back to the topic. So you blame tendulkar for not inspiring his peers to do better and dont consider him as good but then how can YOU rate Vishy that high when he not only did not inspire his peers even scored fewer runs.

I am just pointing out that the same logic can be used both ways.

At the end of the day sachin has had some good times (desert storm), the last one year in key matches and some not so good times. I can pick any player in the world and show the same pattern.

[ramshorns]

You are entitled to your views and that is fine.

I have mine and pretty well justified when I point fingers at Tendulkar's exploits in most of the finals.  He to me is not a difference maker as can be made out for the number of big games won by India having a player with 15k runs and 430 games and never even worth considered to be dropped.  One expects better results which seemed to have only recently improved under Dhoni.

Also it is just chickening out saying that 359 is a mean total to get to.  Everyone gets that and knows where the blame goes outside of Tendulkar.   But still if this team won a chunk of other big games one would not have to question the team's mental toughness which is pretty obvious in the 18 or 19 finals they failed to clinch in ODI's.  Also one more thing keeping the WC2003 final aside what happended to the 2007 WC chase in a must win game against SL(chasing less than 250) that would have made us qualify for the next round.   I mean where does it end.   It is easy to get carried away by the records.  I for one am not.  I say where are the big results or our share of trophies for the number of them we play or played since 2000.

To put this in perspective what was our win % during Vishy's career? For the longest time we had the best batsmen (gavaskar and vishy) playing together and what were the numbers for us then? Were we the number one team in the world? were we even close? No. They just did not have the support. Should they be called crappy players due to that?

I thought Vishy was not voted by many here as a great batsman as they did with Tendulkar.   If Tendulkar is that great why is the team that had him have their share of wins in big games even if it is a team game.  How cum he never inspired his team mates and willed them.  Is it a coincidence Dhoni took a team without Tendulkar and won a 20-20 cup.  A fair question to ask.  All of a sudden when the time comes for someone to blame Tendulkar it becomes a team game and if not he is the man he is the automatic he is the one to be never dropped or asked to retire after the 2007 WC in the lines of Gilly and Hayden all great players who saw better success.

CP looks like we look at this issue little different when it comes to Tendulkar and ODI's.

i am not that enamored by tendulkar myself. you  know i blamed him as much for 2007 world cup loss as anyone else. His selfishness for not wanting to play in the middle order is well documented (by me).

Ofcourse he does not want to play in the middle order in ODI's like in Tests because unlike in Tests the ODI's are a shorter version and it does not give him enough time to settle down and take his time to score the runs.  Say what you want about him.  I mean not you but I am saying this in general.  This man wants records and he recently said SMG wants him to scores 15k Test runs.  What kind of a wish is that.  I understand to a degree someone urging a player or motivate them but this constant mention of records at each point of the way makes one's desire obvious and what matters to them.  I hope people put a proper perspective on things.   I try to when it comes to Tendulkar and records.

but lets come back to the topic. So you blame tendulkar for not inspiring his peers to do better and dont consider him as good but then how can YOU rate Vishy that high when he not only did not inspire his peers even scored fewer runs.

I am just pointing out that the same logic can be used both ways.

I do not mind if people do not regard Vishy highly.  I only try to do a good job of making people understand how great a player he was.  Do you know Wisden has 2 of Vishy's knocks in the top 100 when Tendulkar could manage 0 and SMG just 1 both having played 35 Tests more than Vishy when the list came out.   Those two knocks one a 97* against WI(team total less 200) and another a 114 against Australia(team total less than 240) were both in wins and no other player crossed 30 for the team.   I mean there should be a reason why his knocks were included despite the so called bias towards the non-english players as per some here.   Plus one other secret I will let out here is all his team mates be it Kapil or Srikanth or Shastri always said he was the man they looked up to when it came to what a team player should be despite having SMG in the ranks.  Vishy sure did inspire his teammates no less a player  than Kapil Dev.   Not saying Tendulkar did not or is bad but somehow to me he is lacking somewhere and I cannot put a finger on it somehow.  But I can feel it and see the number of times he disappointed the fans when they expected more from someone who they touted as the next coming of Bradman.  I hope it is clear enough this time on what I mean.

At the end of the day sachin has had some good times (desert storm), the last one year in key matches and some not so good times. I can pick any player in the world and show the same pattern.

The bad times outweigh the good as far as I am concerned.  IMO there is no need to bring in other players as no one I mean none whatsoever including the one's that have had better team success(Ponting, Gilly, Jaya to name a few) were hyped as much as Tendulkar or given a free pass no matter what.   I know that good and bad are part of sports but to me somehow the number of times Tendulkar let down the team outweighs the times he did not by quite a bit despite all his records in my estimates.

[12th_Man]

I read an article on Vishy in cricbuzz today 
here:
http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/19915/Vishy-rates-his-debut-ton-as-his-best-innings
Vishy rates his debut ton as his best innings
GR Viswanath reckons his second innings knock of 137 on debut against Bill Lawry's Australia as his
 
GR Viswanath reckons his second innings knock of 137 on debut against Bill Lawry's Australia as his best.[© AFP]All the 14 centuries he had scored for India were either match-winning or match-saving knocks, but former captain Gundappa Viswanath reckons his second innings knock of 137 on his Test debut at Kanpur in 1969-70 against Bill Lawry's Australia as his best.

"It was my first Test and I had been dismissed for zero in the first. While returning to the pavilion, I thought of the stories of chai (tea) and matka (pot) thrown at cricketers at Green Park, but I was treated like a hero after the second innings," he recalled at the Castrol awards function here.

Viswanath, renowned for his gutsy display against the world's fastest bowlers on the fiercest wickets despite his short stature, received the Lifetime Achievement award worth Rs 5 lakh and a trophy at the gathering last evening.

Vishy was apprehensive he may not get to play for India after the first innings duck. He not only scored a century in the second but also became the first batsman from India to add to his Test centuries tally after a debut Test ton.

"After not opening my account in the first innings, I thought of not getting a second innings and whether I would get to play for India again," he recalled.

"But as it happened, I got a second chance and it turned to be a very good wicket, the ball did not spin till the fifth day and I could play my natural innings," said the erstwhile middle order virtuoso whose centuries have either aided the team to win or earn a draw in Tests.

Vishwanath was given the lifetime achievement award by his brother-in-law and long time friend Sunil Gavaskar.

The 60-year-old Vishy, known for his sportsmanship and calm demeanour, said that the then Indian skipper Mansur Ali Khan Pataudi did not want to declare the innings as he desired he get past 150 because of the debut ton jinx.

"(Captain Mansur Ali Khan) Pataudi said he was not going to declare and that I should try and get 150 because no previous Indian batsman had scored a second century after making a century on debut," said the Bangalore-based former cricketer and chief selector.

He gave credit to Pataudi, considered among the shrewdest of captains the country ever had, for giving him tips to strengthen his wrists after his glorious ton on debut.

"After the 137, Pataudi told me that I was hitting well, but the ball was not racing to the fence and I should lift dumb bells to strengthen my wrist. I lifted bucketfuls of water at home," he said.

Vishy, who scored 6,080 runs in 91 Tests with 14 centuries, said he was pleased that he could contribute to the team's cause whenever it needed him.

"I think I have contributed to the team when needed the most," he said.

Among the current lot of Indian batsmen, Vishy said he enjoyed watching Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid and Virender Sehwag play.

"Well, I enjoy the batting of Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid and Virender Sehwag and many others," he said.

[12th_Man]

New Zealand 237 v Warriors 239/8 (48.5 ov)     
Warriors won by 2 wkts (with 7 balls remaining) 
 
Pakistan 306/8 v Sri Lanka 198 (46.5 ov)     
Pakistan won by 108 runs   
South Africa 388/4 v West Indies 200 (41.1 ov)     
South Africa won by 188 runs 

[keep-it-cool]

This Umar Akmal chap appears to be a very handy player.

[ganavk]

I read an article on Vishy in cricbuzz today 
here:
http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/19915/Vishy-rates-his-debut-ton-as-his-best-innings
Vishy rates his debut ton as his best innings
GR Viswanath reckons his second innings knock of 137 on debut against Bill Lawry's Australia as his best
 

This can't be true even if Vishy has told that. It is not in Wisden top 100 innings. 

[12th_Man]

This Umar Akmal chap appears to be a very handy player.

Both bros seem to be crucial( recent performing) in pak batting line up.

[12th_Man]

I am surprised MSD not giving ball to ANayar in their warm up match agianst NZ. While mishra nd PK have been tried,  Does not seem like Nayar will get to play a game in CT going forward.

[keep-it-cool]

Dravid taking Bond to the cleaners!

5.6
 Bond to Dravid, no run
 
5.5
 Bond to Dravid, FOUR, inside edge, past the keeper
 
5.4
 Bond to Dravid, FOUR, guided to thirdman
 
5.3
 Bond to Dravid, FOUR, beautiful cover drive, racing away to the boundry
 
5.2
 Bond to Dravid, no run
 
5.1
 Bond to Dravid, FOUR, short ball, pulled away to deep square
 

[12th_Man]

read that GG may not be fit for 1st match against Pak on 26th.
Think tank did good job by not playing SRT. RD cementing his position as opener for next game

[keep-it-cool]

Vettori gets KKD. 58/1 in 9.2 overs.

[ganavk]

Dravid taking Bond to the cleaners!

5.6
 Bond to Dravid, no run
 
5.5
 Bond to Dravid, FOUR, inside edge, past the keeper
 
5.4
 Bond to Dravid, FOUR, guided to thirdman
 
5.3
 Bond to Dravid, FOUR, beautiful cover drive, racing away to the boundry
 
5.2
 Bond to Dravid, no run
 
5.1
 Bond to Dravid, FOUR, short ball, pulled away to deep square

Good over for RD but spoiled by that four..inside edge. 

[keep-it-cool]

RD falls, bowled by Jeetan Patel for 37 (34 balls).

It is a bit worrying that RD is unable to convert his starts into bigger scores these days. Playing the sheet anchor is fine as long as he is able to carry on to more 70/80+ scores.

[Cover Point]

RD falls, bowled by Jeetan Patel for 37 (34 balls).

It is a bit worrying that RD is unable to convert his starts into bigger scores these days. Playing the sheet anchor is fine as long as he is able to carry on to more 70/80+ scores.

37 off 34 ...sheet what?

[12th_Man]

While he scoed 37 off 34, but we know RD was drafted for consistency and avoid MO becoming spine less incase needs to hold up till end. I think KIC's point is not criticising him about a score of 37 off 34, but about connversion to big score. RD was second highiest scorer after Nayar.
Looking at scores, seems Karthik, MSD,YP,YS etc were bigger culprits than Nayar, SR,RD etc.
IMO, MSD was trying to play a typical RD role in this match.
I haven't seen how RD got bowled, but if that was while trying to score, I would not hold anything. It is not  typical of RD getting bolwed by a spinner trying to defend.
Anyway, I am getting more and more uncomfortable by YPathan's game and Indias no7 bat/bowl position.
Abhishek produced a better knock(atleast on paper) than YP.  Also this is not just one off game YP has not scored when needed. Won't be averse to Mishra taking that spot in the next game. not sure why Nayar was not bowled by MSD 
 

Batting scores
==================================
 India innings (target: 302 runs from 50 overs) R B 4s 6s SR 
 KD Karthik  c Oram b Vettori  20 29 4 0 68.96 
 9.2 caught Oram 58/1
 
 R Dravid  b Patel  37 34 6 0 108.82 
 13.1 bowled 70/2
 
 SK Raina  run out (Guptill)  31 42 2 1 73.80 
 22.4 Vettori to Pathan, run out (Guptill) 112/4
 
 MS Dhoni*†  c Guptill b Vettori  9 22 1 0 40.90 
 20.1 caught Guptill 101/3
 
 YK Pathan  c †McCullum b Bond  13 28 1 0 46.42 
 27.3 fine snick through to the keeper 128/6
 
 Yuvraj Singh  b Bond  9 8 0 1 112.50 
 25.6 bowled 125/5
 
 AM Nayar  b Oram  41 36 6 0 113.88 
 39.3 bowled 197/8
 
 P Kumar  run out (Guptill/Elliott)  1 4 0 0 25.00 
 28.2 Butler to Nayar, run out (Guptill/Elliott) 130/7
 
 A Mishra  c Tuffey b Oram  26 35 3 0 74.28 
 39.5 caught Tuffey 198/9
 
 RP Singh  c †McCullum b Tuffey  1 4 0 0 25.00 
 40.3 fine edge on the onside, keeper takes the catch 198/10
 
 I Sharma  not out  0 1 0 0 0.00 
 
 Extras (b 1, w 9) 10     
       
 Total (all out; 40.3 overs) 198 (4.88 runs per over)

[Cover Point]

anyone worried about Dhoni's batting form?

[12th_Man]

I thought he systematically took his competetion out by not even trying Karthik to keep in immaterial games.

[feverpitch]

anyone worried about Dhoni's batting form?

No... but on the other hand, Keeping form... yes, I'm verrry worried... just rewind to the Compaq Cup final and juxtapose Sanga with Dhoni and you'll see exactly why!!!!