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[devatha]

..and now this...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/11/iran.nuclear/index.html

This cannot be good. Hope cooler heads prevail.

Just now, read the same thing in Eenadu. Not sure, what he is trying to do by announcing it in public. "country has successfully produced low-grade enriched uranium at a level sufficient to power nuclear plants". O.K. But keep quiet, no? This unnecessarily provides ammunition to US.

Well, our Great Helmsman Vajpayee did make a grand announcement when he ordered the A-bomb testing did nt he? Its all show... partly to the home audience, partly to the intl audience, that their actions are all legit & within international laws... In fact, if he did not announce, he could easily be accused of hiding information...

But as I said before, some people will ALWAYS see the world through USA-tinted glasses...

Fever

The difference is: Everybody comes to know, once you test the bomb. Did vajpayee announce it after the test has been conducted? or when he ordered it? After it is all over, right? Then everybody comes to know about it, through seismograph readings, satellite pictures etc. Same goes for missile tests. But the enrichment stuff can stay secret, everybody only guesses, some might get the hint, but they can't prove it. What India did was we kept silent, nobody even got a hint, until we are done with it.

Announcing the enrichment stuff doesn't do any harm to US, they know Iran can do it at any time. It harms Iran, because now US has got a reason to attack Iran, may be to help further its agenda.

[feverpitch]

Bouncer, you nailed it! At the bottom of all the homilies emanating from Capitol Hill, there is always a economic cause. Always!

It was the same with Saddam, who was the first to shift from the US dollar to the Euro, just after the Euro was introduced in 2000, in his payments for the food-for-oil programme. And he started producing more oil than apparently he was allowed to. The Euro, which till then was desperate to find backers in order to become a legit universal currency against the dollar, suddenly found a powerful backer — the second biggest oil producer in the world. In fact, in the very next OPEC meeting, Arab countries were actually close to settling on choosing on Euro as their currency, before KSA [the US puppet] scuttled it. If you follow economic trends of the months succeeding the shift, suddenly the Euro became bullish! Well, can there be any bigger cardinal crime than defying the big boss in its own lair? Not that I know of. And so crime was followed by punishment, not only for Saddam, the Iraqis but also for the French and the Germans, who are the chief backers of the Euro!

In fact, the next truant child who was brought in line was Russia, when they shifted their oil dealings into Euro — that was followed by a spate of 'colour revolutions', where Russian backed despots were accused on electoral malpractice and replaced with CIA funding, by Yankee backed despots... all over the Central Asian countries...

Not for nothing are there serious rumblings against Viktor Yushchenko of Ukraine [the US backed guy] already!

Hah! So much for democracy! So much for human rights! Three cheers for Islam Karimov, the dictator for life of Uzbekistan, and the go to man for the US in Central Asia, who boils his opponents live in cauldrons in the central square of their capital [Samarkand?] and is rewarded with more weapons, US air bases and money for that!

[feverpitch]

Fever

The difference is: Everybody comes to know, once you test the bomb. Did vajpayee announce it after the test has been conducted? or when he ordered it? After it is all over, right? Then everybody comes to know about it, through seismograph readings, satellite pictures etc. Same goes for missile tests. But the enrichment stuff can stay secret, everybody only guesses, some might get the hint, but they can't prove it. What India did was we kept silent, nobody even got a hint, until we are done with it.

Announcing the enrichment stuff doesn't do any harm to US, they know Iran can do it at any time. It harms Iran, because now US has got a reason to attack Iran, may be to help further its agenda.

Did Ahmednijad say Iran was deveoping the bomb? All he said was that Iran had successfully enriched 'low grade' uranium that can ONLY be used to produce energy. Read the news carefully boss!

[feverpitch]

Devatha, we're going in circles. But I understand now, you agree with my reasoning that the USA will use any means, hook or crook, to bomb Iran, if and when they want to. I agree completely.

So all you are concerned about is why they made the announcement in public. Well, I believe it is a cat-and-mouse game now, with Iran trying to convey to the world that they are on the right side of the law in the hope that popular opinion will support them. Though IMHO, that is a misplaced trust as Saddam found out to his peril! When big bully decides — there is little that can sway his decision — except the threat of commensurate response!

Which is why Osama is so successful! He preys on the fear of the unknown!

[pieterSAN]

Fever,Bouncer - you are truly brilliant. Keep it coming.

[senthilpeter]

Why can't you imagine a world where there are no nuclear weapons, and where USA leads in the movement to demilitarise nuclear energy completely, and where all countries get equal share in the nuclear energy stakes?

Could it be because after all, despite the homilies, the US does have a vested interest in preserving the technology for themselves and their allies, in order to bully the world?

Fever, I honestly do imagine such a world. There's an expirement of sorts towards such a thing in Auroville, Tamil Nadu. To which I provide support in every which way. The problem with making such a imaginary world real is us humans. To really have something of that kind on Earth, we humans that are essentially ego-driven, desire-fulfilling beings will have to evolve. There is no way our collectives (Whether its nations or states or kingdoms or tribes) will ever embody greater truths and saner objectives we want until on an individual level we each live by such objectives. While every single US redisent (okay, lets exclude a super tiny majority out)  is basically consumed by his own well-being (usually in terms of his 'wealth', his 'freedoms') and judges everything from that prism, its not realistic to imagine a world where the US is leading a de-militarization.
If we think about it a bit, we'll start seeing that not just US-citizens but basically most people around the world today are heavily influenced by the economic motive and a lifestyle given to satisfaction of desire. In such a scenario our imaginary world will not happen.

About ur last sentence, no question, on some level or the other (even if not conscious) for the US its about preserving the technology for themselves.

[senthilpeter]

Incidentally, have any of you ever heard of the psychological condition called the "Stockholm Syndrome". It seems to me that many of us desis suffer from what can structurally be considered as this syndrome, wrt USA. We do know, more or less, that the hostage takers [or evil doers to use neocon-speak, in this case the USA] are upto no good, but their sheer presence and projection of ABSOLUTE POWER, along with 'small acts of individuated kindness', lead us to 'obsessively identify with the likes and dislikes of the captor which has the result of warping our own psyche in such a way that we come to sympathize with our tormenter'!

Without providing proof, I'll say I definitely dont suffer from this syndrome.

[senthilpeter]

They just enriched Uranium. Have not made a bomb, have not talked about using it in the future and unlike the great hypocrite never used it in a war against another country....

... but bouncer, the words of an Iranian president will always be laced with poison, no matter what. While the words of an American president (and subsequent actions) are for the benefit of mankind ... That's a divine ordinance ...

But commie-terrorists like you will never understand that, even when Judgement Day is upon you! Poor, poor sod!

Yes indeed. If not for the very same trick, a small variation of it. That unfortunately is why nations will continue behaving the way they do, cos their population has still got a lot to learn. And while the defeciences, stupidities, obscurities, faults may vary from population to population, I believe almost all of them these days are gullible in some way or another.

And the funny thing is that the Americans will fall for this again. They will forget all the lies about "WMD and mushroom cloud," "bringing freedom for the Iraqis", " Iraqis will greet us with flowers," "we tried our best to avoid this war."
Just wait.  Bush and his cronies will use the media (CNN, NYT included)  in hyping the threat, and the attack will come with 80% of the Americans approving of it..

[feverpitch]

Why can't you imagine a world where there are no nuclear weapons, and where USA leads in the movement to demilitarise nuclear energy completely, and where all countries get equal share in the nuclear energy stakes?

Could it be because after all, despite the homilies, the US does have a vested interest in preserving the technology for themselves and their allies, in order to bully the world?

Fever, I honestly do imagine such a world. There's an expirement of sorts towards such a thing in Auroville, Tamil Nadu. To which I provide support in every which way. The problem with making such a imaginary world real is us humans. To really have something of that kind on Earth, we humans that are essentially ego-driven, desire-fulfilling beings will have to evolve. There is no way our collectives (Whether its nations or states or kingdoms or tribes) will ever embody greater truths and saner objectives we want until on an individual level we each live by such objectives. While every single US redisent (okay, lets exclude a super tiny majority out)  is basically consumed by his own well-being (usually in terms of his 'wealth', his 'freedoms') and judges everything from that prism, its not realistic to imagine a world where the US is leading a de-militarization.
If we think about it a bit, we'll start seeing that not just US-citizens but basically most people around the world today are heavily influenced by the economic motive and a lifestyle given to satisfaction of desire. In such a scenario our imaginary world will not happen.

About ur last sentence, no question, on some level or the other (even if not conscious) for the US its about preserving the technology for themselves.

Hats off to you, senthil for your personal contribution!

One last word. IMHO, the reason the US preserves its military superiority is to a large extent to preserve its capacity of arm-twisting through the projection of its invincible power. It all ends up in economic benefit, directly or otherwise for them. For truant subjects, there is the overt and covert imposition of military might... otherwise, there is always the commercial benefit to be had from the sale of arms and the development of high technology. Much of the modern high tech, including the very internet that connects us, is a by-product of the US military-industrial complex!

[achutank]

there's one solution to this problem and that is live and let live, the *hian way

[senthilpeter]

One last word. IMHO, the reason the US preserves its military superiority is to a large extent to preserve its capacity of arm-twisting through the projection of its invincible power. It all ends up in economic benefit, directly or otherwise for them. For truant subjects, there is the overt and covert imposition of military might... otherwise, there is always the commercial benefit to be had from the sale of arms and the development of high technology. Much of the modern high tech, including the very internet that connects us, is a by-product of the US military-industrial complex!

Amen.

[senthilpeter]

there's one solution to this problem and that is live and let live, the *hian way

macha, the solution has long been found/known. the talk now is about how to achieve that. Got ideas? 

[LosingNow]

Bouncer, you nailed it! At the bottom of all the homilies emanating from Capitol Hill, there is always a economic cause. Always!

It was the same with Saddam, who was the first to shift from the US dollar to the Euro, just after the Euro was introduced in 2000, in his payments for the food-for-oil programme. And he started producing more oil than apparently he was allowed to. The Euro, which till then was desperate to find backers in order to become a legit universal currency against the dollar, suddenly found a powerful backer — the second biggest oil producer in the world. In fact, in the very next OPEC meeting, Arab countries were actually close to settling on choosing on Euro as their currency, before KSA [the US puppet] scuttled it. If you follow economic trends of the months succeeding the shift, suddenly the Euro became bullish! Well, can there be any bigger cardinal crime than defying the big boss in its own lair? Not that I know of. And so crime was followed by punishment, not only for Saddam, the Iraqis but also for the French and the Germans, who are the chief backers of the Euro!

In fact, the next truant child who was brought in line was Russia, when they shifted their oil dealings into Euro — that was followed by a spate of 'colour revolutions', where Russian backed despots were accused on electoral malpractice and replaced with CIA funding, by Yankee backed despots... all over the Central Asian countries...

Not for nothing are there serious rumblings against Viktor Yushchenko of Ukraine [the US backed guy] already!

Hah! So much for democracy! So much for human rights! Three cheers for Islam Karimov, the dictator for life of Uzbekistan, and the go to man for the US in Central Asia, who boils his opponents live in cauldrons in the central square of their capital [Samarkand?] and is rewarded with more weapons, US air bases and money for that!

Yes, it is all about money..isnt that the reason why you are "selling" yourself by living in this "morally repugnant country".

[achutank]

there's one solution to this problem and that is live and let live, the *hian way

macha, the solution has long been found/known. the talk now is about how to achieve that. Got ideas? 

hand the whole region over to dalmiya, suddenly all the games will be forgotten and everybody will become a marketing expert

[bouncer]

Bouncer, you nailed it! At the bottom of all the homilies emanating from Capitol Hill, there is always a economic cause. Always!

It was the same with Saddam, who was the first to shift from the US dollar to the Euro, just after the Euro was introduced in 2000, in his payments for the food-for-oil programme. And he started producing more oil than apparently he was allowed to. The Euro, which till then was desperate to find backers in order to become a legit universal currency against the dollar, suddenly found a powerful backer — the second biggest oil producer in the world. In fact, in the very next OPEC meeting, Arab countries were actually close to settling on choosing on Euro as their currency, before KSA [the US puppet] scuttled it. If you follow economic trends of the months succeeding the shift, suddenly the Euro became bullish! Well, can there be any bigger cardinal crime than defying the big boss in its own lair? Not that I know of. And so crime was followed by punishment, not only for Saddam, the Iraqis but also for the French and the Germans, who are the chief backers of the Euro!

In fact, the next truant child who was brought in line was Russia, when they shifted their oil dealings into Euro — that was followed by a spate of 'colour revolutions', where Russian backed despots were accused on electoral malpractice and replaced with CIA funding, by Yankee backed despots... all over the Central Asian countries...

Not for nothing are there serious rumblings against Viktor Yushchenko of Ukraine [the US backed guy] already!

Hah! So much for democracy! So much for human rights! Three cheers for Islam Karimov, the dictator for life of Uzbekistan, and the go to man for the US in Central Asia, who boils his opponents live in cauldrons in the central square of their capital [Samarkand?] and is rewarded with more weapons, US air bases and money for that!

Yes, it is all about money..isnt that the reason why you are "selling" yourself by living in this "morally repugnant country".

?
Do not engage in personal attacks. Nobody here said that USA is a morally repugnant country. Its administration from time to time has engaged in that kind of nefarious activities though. And Fever is not willing to kill others for money...So where is the comparison?

This is the last weapon of the right-wingers. If you criticize US policies, engage in personal attack!

[bouncer]

And a funny true story on this...

On 770AM, NYC, the morning call-in show is Curtis & Kuby.
Curtis- founder of Guardian Angels, right-wing, never went to college
Kuby- Civil rights lawyer, left-wing

One morning in 2003 summer,

Curtis- Did you hear what Deepak Chopra said? The new-age Guru. He compared Bush with Hitler!
Kuby-  Not quite. he said that a lot of his policies, and the way the party is trashing anyone who is against this war, remind him of Nazis.
Curtis- It is the same thing. But one thing this guy should know. Why is he in this country? He came here for a better life, earning a lot of money, and now trashing this country! He should have stayed back in India, where all he could do was to make cowdung briquette for a living!

After sometime a caller calls.

Caller- I would like to talk about Deepak Chopra. Curtis, do you know he has a Ph.D.? A Ph.D. in India has decent earning potential. But yes, a guy with your education will surely has to make cowdung briquette for a living!

Curtis- (I could not see his face, but he surly was fuming) hmmmm, smarty pant? Do you hate this country too?
 
 

[pieterSAN]

Come on Fever, Bouncer. Encore!! Entertain us!!

[senthilpeter]

And a funny true story on this...

On 770AM, NYC, the morning call-in show is Curtis & Kuby.
Curtis- founder of Guardian Angels, right-wing, never went to college
Kuby- Civil rights lawyer, left-wing

One morning in 2003 summer,

Curtis- Did you hear what Deepak Chopra said? The new-age Guru. He compared Bush with Hitler!
Kuby-  Not quite. he said that a lot of his policies, and the way the party is trashing anyone who is against this war, remind him of Nazis.
Curtis- It is the same thing. But one thing this guy should know. Why is he in this country? He came here for a better life, earning a lot of money, and now trashing this country! He should have stayed back in India, where all he could do was to make cowdung briquette for a living!

After sometime a caller calls.

Caller- I would like to talk about Deepak Chopra. Curtis, do you know he has a Ph.D.? A Ph.D. in India has decent earning potential. But yes, a guy with your education will surely has to make cowdung briquette for a living!

Curtis- (I could not see his face, but he surly was fuming) hmmmm, smarty pant? Do you hate this country too?
 
 

LMAO... Good anecdote/joke bouncer... appl..

[j]

Bouncer, you nailed it! At the bottom of all the homilies emanating from Capitol Hill, there is always a economic cause. Always!

It was the same with Saddam, who was the first to shift from the US dollar to the Euro, just after the Euro was introduced in 2000, in his payments for the food-for-oil programme. And he started producing more oil than apparently he was allowed to. The Euro, which till then was desperate to find backers in order to become a legit universal currency against the dollar, suddenly found a powerful backer — the second biggest oil producer in the world. In fact, in the very next OPEC meeting, Arab countries were actually close to settling on choosing on Euro as their currency, before KSA [the US puppet] scuttled it. If you follow economic trends of the months succeeding the shift, suddenly the Euro became bullish! Well, can there be any bigger cardinal crime than defying the big boss in its own lair? Not that I know of. And so crime was followed by punishment, not only for Saddam, the Iraqis but also for the French and the Germans, who are the chief backers of the Euro!

In fact, the next truant child who was brought in line was Russia, when they shifted their oil dealings into Euro — that was followed by a spate of 'colour revolutions', where Russian backed despots were accused on electoral malpractice and replaced with CIA funding, by Yankee backed despots... all over the Central Asian countries...

Not for nothing are there serious rumblings against Viktor Yushchenko of Ukraine [the US backed guy] already!

Hah! So much for democracy! So much for human rights! Three cheers for Islam Karimov, the dictator for life of Uzbekistan, and the go to man for the US in Central Asia, who boils his opponents live in cauldrons in the central square of their capital [Samarkand?] and is rewarded with more weapons, US air bases and money for that!

Yes, it is all about money..isnt that the reason why you are "selling" yourself by living in this "morally repugnant country".

?
Do not engage in personal attacks. Nobody here said that USA is a morally repugnant country. Its administration from time to time has engaged in that kind of nefarious activities though. And Fever is not willing to kill others for money...So where is the comparison?

This is the last weapon of the right-wingers. If you criticize US policies, engage in personal attack!

What is wrong in saying that this is morally repugnant country?

[bouncer]

Bouncer, you nailed it! At the bottom of all the homilies emanating from Capitol Hill, there is always a economic cause. Always!

It was the same with Saddam, who was the first to shift from the US dollar to the Euro, just after the Euro was introduced in 2000, in his payments for the food-for-oil programme. And he started producing more oil than apparently he was allowed to. The Euro, which till then was desperate to find backers in order to become a legit universal currency against the dollar, suddenly found a powerful backer — the second biggest oil producer in the world. In fact, in the very next OPEC meeting, Arab countries were actually close to settling on choosing on Euro as their currency, before KSA [the US puppet] scuttled it. If you follow economic trends of the months succeeding the shift, suddenly the Euro became bullish! Well, can there be any bigger cardinal crime than defying the big boss in its own lair? Not that I know of. And so crime was followed by punishment, not only for Saddam, the Iraqis but also for the French and the Germans, who are the chief backers of the Euro!

In fact, the next truant child who was brought in line was Russia, when they shifted their oil dealings into Euro — that was followed by a spate of 'colour revolutions', where Russian backed despots were accused on electoral malpractice and replaced with CIA funding, by Yankee backed despots... all over the Central Asian countries...

Not for nothing are there serious rumblings against Viktor Yushchenko of Ukraine [the US backed guy] already!

Hah! So much for democracy! So much for human rights! Three cheers for Islam Karimov, the dictator for life of Uzbekistan, and the go to man for the US in Central Asia, who boils his opponents live in cauldrons in the central square of their capital [Samarkand?] and is rewarded with more weapons, US air bases and money for that!

Yes, it is all about money..isnt that the reason why you are "selling" yourself by living in this "morally repugnant country".

?
Do not engage in personal attacks. Nobody here said that USA is a morally repugnant country. Its administration from time to time has engaged in that kind of nefarious activities though. And Fever is not willing to kill others for money...So where is the comparison?

This is the last weapon of the right-wingers. If you criticize US policies, engage in personal attack!

What is wrong in saying that this is morally repugnant country?

That is a different debate. But the point is nobody said or implied that during the course of this discussion

[toney]

What is wrong in saying that this is morally repugnant country?

That is a different debate. But the point is nobody said or implied that during the course of this discussion

Yeah, right. And Prince Charles is a lesbian.

[senthilpeter]

J, why is this a morally repugnant country? and which country out there is not.

[j]

J, why is this a morally repugnant country? and which country out there is not.

Most of them are  but US leads the pack. I can write a book on why it is but it would be much simpler if you try to prove otherwise.

A simple question to answer would be " would you or anyone like his/her children to grow up here"?

[pieterSAN]

J, why is this a morally repugnant country? and which country out there is not.

Most of them are  but US leads the pack. I can write a book on why it is but it would be much simpler if you try to prove otherwise.

A simple question to answer would be " would you or anyone like his/her children to grow up here"?

I would prefer the U.S to most places. I would not mind having them spend their childhood in Europe either. Point is moot though as I am not likely to have children.

[senthilpeter]

J, why is this a morally repugnant country? and which country out there is not.

Most of them are  but US leads the pack. I can write a book on why it is but it would be much simpler if you try to prove otherwise.

A simple question to answer would be " would you or anyone like his/her children to grow up here"?

The answer to your question may be a resounding Yes if I were american.
Your question does not take into account the fact that most of us are Indian, brought up in that country and culture. So its only natural for us to want our kids to grow up there. If you can gaurantee that their desi-ness will match the desi-ness of homegrown ones, I'm sure a whole lot of NRIs will happily settle here and see them group up here.

So your question does not reflect on the morally repugnant part of things.

[LosingNow]

Bush the delegator..clueless!
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/yyAaAI1qG-A&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/yyAaAI1qG-A&rel=0</a>

..and humorous?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/rZLNABx6TDE&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/rZLNABx6TDE&rel=0</a>

[cardus]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1754307,00.html

Britain took part in mock Iran invasion

Pentagon planned for Tehran conflict with war game involving UK troops

Julian Borger in Washington and Ewen MacAskill
Saturday April 15, 2006
The Guardian

British officers took part in a US war game aimed at preparing for a possible invasion of Iran, despite repeated claims by the foreign secretary, Jack Straw, that a military strike against Iran is inconceivable.

The war game, codenamed Hotspur 2004, took place at the US base of Fort Belvoir in Virginia in July 2004.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman played down its significance yesterday. "These paper-based exercises are designed to test officers to the limit in fictitious scenarios. We use invented countries and situations using real maps," he said.

The disclosure of Britain's participation came in the week in which the Iranian crisis intensified, with a US report that the White House was contemplating a tactical nuclear strike and Tehran defying the United Nations security council.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, who sparked outrage in the US, Europe and Israel last year by calling for Israel to be wiped off the face of the Earth, created more alarm yesterday. He told a conference in Tehran in support of the Palestinians: "Like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm."

The senior British officers took part in the Iranian war game just over a year after the invasion of Iraq. It was focused on the Caspian Sea, with an invasion date of 2015. Although the planners said the game was based on a fictitious Middle East country called Korona, the border corresponded exactly with Iran's and the characteristics of the enemy were Iranian.

A British medium-weight brigade operated as part of a US-led force.

The MoD's Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, which helped run the war game, described it on its website as the "year's main analytical event of the UK-US Future Land Operations Interoperability Study" aimed at ensuring that both armies work well together. The study "was extremely well received on both sides of the Atlantic".

According to an MoD source, war games covering a variety of scenarios are conducted regularly by senior British officers in the UK, the US or at Nato headquarters. He cited senior military staff carrying out a mock invasion of southern England last week and one of Scotland in January.

However, Hotspur took place at a time of accelerated US planning after the fall of Baghdad for a possible conflict with Iran. That planning is being carried out by US Central Command, responsible for the Middle East and central Asia area of operations, and by Strategic Command, which carries out long-range bombing and nuclear operations.

William Arkin, a former army intelligence officer who first reported on the contingency planning for a possible nuclear strike against Iran in his military column for the Washington Post online, said: "The United States military is really, really getting ready, building war plans and options, studying maps, shifting its thinking."

A Foreign Office spokesman said: "The foreign secretary has made his position very clear that military action is inconceivable. The Foreign Office regards speculation about war, particularly involving Britain, as unhelpful at a time when the diplomatic route is still being pursued."

After the failure of a mission to Tehran on Thursday by Mohammed ElBaradei, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Russia announced a diplomatic initiative yesterday. It is to host a new round of talks in Moscow on Tuesday with the US, the EU and China.