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Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« on: July 23, 2009, 03:41:16 PM »
or would you be ok to have him deported?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_hospital_deportation

Fla. jury mulls hospital deportation case


By LAURA WIDES-MUNOZ, AP Hispanic Affairs  – Thu Jul 23, 7:24 pm ET


STUART, Fla. – A jury began deliberations Thursday in the case of a South Florida hospital that quietly chartered a plane and sent a seriously brain injured illegal immigrant back to Guatemala over the objections of his family and legal guardian.

Health care and immigration experts across the country are closely watching the lawsuit play out. Lawyers say it may be the first of its kind and underscores the dilemma facing hospitals with patients who require long-term care, are unable to pay and don't qualify for federal or state aid because of their immigration status.

Why should Martin Memorial Medical Center have to pay for a lifetime of care "for injuries we didn't even cause?" hospital attorney Scott Machaud asked the six-member jury during closing arguments of the monthlong trial. He said the hospital saved the life of 37-year-old Luis Jimenez and provided the uninsured man with $1.5 million worth of care, only to be unfairly hit with a lawsuit.

"Paging Alice in Wonderland, where up is down and down is up and no good deed goes unpunished," Machaud exclaimed.

However, under federal law, Martin Memorial was required to care for Luis Jimenez until someone else would take him. Because of his immigration status, no one else would. But hospitals that receive Medicare reimbursements are required to provide emergency care to all patients and must provide an acceptable discharge plan once the patient is stabilized.

The lawsuit seeks nearly $1 million to cover the estimated lifetime costs of his care in Guatemala, as well as damages for the hospital's alleged "false imprisonment" and punitive damages to discourage other medical centers from taking similar action.

Jimenez was a Mayan Indian who was sending money home to his wife and young sons when a drunk driver plowed into a van he was riding in in 2000, leaving him a paraplegic with the mental capability of a fourth grader. Because of his brain injury, his cousin Montejo Gaspar was made his legal guardian.

Jimenez spent nearly three years at Martin Memorial before the hospital, backed by a letter from the Guatemalan government, got a Florida judge to OK the transfer to a Guatemalan facility. Gaspar appealed.

But without telling Jimenez's family — and the day after Gaspar filed an emergency request to stop the hospital's plan — the hospital put Jimenez on a $30,000 charter flight home in the early hours of July 10, 2003.

Weeks later, Jimenez was released from the Guatemalan hospital and soon wound up in his aging mother's 1-room home in a remote mountain village.

The case has raised the question of whether a hospital and a state court should be deciding whether to deport someone — a power long held by the federal government.

In 2004, an appeals court ruled the lower court had overstepped its authority, and that the hospital did not have the right to return Jimenez to Guatemala.

Before sending them to the jury room Thursday, Martin County Senior Judge James Midelis told jurors that the appeals court had already decided that Jimenez was "unlawfully detained and deprived of liberty." Midelis said the jury's task was to decide whether the hospital's actions were "unreasonable and unwarranted under the circumstances," and whether its actions had in turn caused Jimenez damage.

Machaud said the hospital was simply following a judge's order at the time.

But in his closing arguments earlier Thursday, a lawyer for Gaspar and Jimenez said the hospital decided to secretly send Jimenez back to Guatemala to halt what would have been a long and expensive appeals process.

"The plan was designed once and for all to stop the meter from running, to stop the expenses ... to stop the case from going all the way up to the Supreme Court — because Luis Jimenez was gone," attorney Jack Hill told the packed courtroom in the sleepy South Florida town of Stuart, just north of the exclusive community of Palm Beach.

The case could set precedent in Florida and possibly beyond.

"Regardless of the decision, it will heighten the awareness of hospitals nationwide. The next time they debate shipping a patient overseas, they're going to have to do their homework because it's going to leave them open to a lot of legal challenges and questions," said Steve Larson, an assistant dean at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Medicine and medical director of a nonprofit clinic for Latino immigrants.

Linda Quick, president of the South Florida Hospital & Healthcare Association, disagreed. She said hospitals may become even more wary about providing extended care to uninsured immigrants.

Hospitals are already struggling under the staggering costs of treating the nation's roughly 47 million uninsured. Illegal immigrants make up an estimated 15 percent of this group, according to the Pew Hispanic Center.

Jimenez's guardian initially supported sending Jimenez back to Guatemala, but became concerned after it became unclear just where he would go. By the time Gaspar won his appeal to block the hospital's plan, it was too late. By then, Jimenez was living with his 73-year-old mother 12 hours from the Guatemalan capital.

A South Florida Roman Catholic priest visited Jimenez to check on his condition. In an e-mail to The Associated Press, he described Jimenez as clean and glad to see visitors.

"It seemed that he was cooperating with his caregiver and would survive, I guessed, until his first pneumonia," wrote the Rev. Frank O'Laughlin.

O'Laughlin called the lawsuit important. He and Larson say a country that relies on cheap immigrant labor for everything from agriculture, to clothing to construction, should factor in the cost of catastrophic injuries to those providing essential services — whether it means requiring employers to offer coverage for day laborers or ensuring public and nonprofit hospitals can care for them.

Carla Luggiero, a senior associate director for American Hospital Association, said that cases such as Jimenez's are rare. Most of the time, hospitals are able to work with the families to find acceptable care.

But she also warned the issue is serious, and said the federal government should address it as it debates health care reform.

"There is absolutely no discussion about it," Luggiero said.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 04:20:58 PM by kban1 »
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dextrous

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2009, 03:44:25 PM »
The hospital has no business sending people anywhere.

There's a very good reason ordinary cops do not have the right to deport immigrants, illegal or otherwise, as life would then become hell for brown-colored people in this country even those on legal status. Try explaining the different types of visas to a redneck moron.
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Cover Point

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2009, 03:45:10 PM »
i am now in agreement with Ruchir that automatic citizenship at birth is probably bad. Children born out of legal immigrants should only be automatically become citizens. If you are here illegally you have no claim to any healthcare or other government facilities.
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Cover Point

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2009, 03:47:07 PM »
The hospital has no business sending people anywhere.

There's a very good reason ordinary cops do not have the right to deport immigrants, illegal or otherwise, as life would then become hell for brown-colored people in this country even those on legal status. Try explaining the different types of visas to a redneck moron.

you dont have to ... but a cop can arrest you on suspicion and still have a judge deport you.

Similarly the hospital should not (and did not) make the decision to deport. that decision was made by the judge (in this case the bleeding hearts say that even the judge did not have the authority). The hospital just acted quickly.

Do you know how much it costs to keep someone in the hospital for a year?
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ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2009, 04:27:54 PM »
The hospital has no business sending people anywhere.

There's a very good reason ordinary cops do not have the right to deport immigrants, illegal or otherwise, as life would then become hell for brown-colored people in this country even those on legal status. Try explaining the different types of visas to a redneck moron.

First of all, it is extremely in bad taste (maybe racist) to call a cop a redneck. You don't even know who the cops are. Just like you wouldn't like to be called a brownie, it would be in equal bad taste to call a cop a redneck. I doubt if a black cop or a latino cop would like being called a redneck.

BTW, FYI - Cops don't deport people. Cops merely hand them over to ICE. It is ICE who has the responsibility to deport people.

Another FYI - Cops are much more intelligent than what you think they are. Cops don't decide on residential status based on skin color. They decide that after verifying the driver's license.

Another FYI - Have you heard of a program called E-Verify? E-Verify is an online program run by DHS - Dept of Homeland Security, that verifies whether a SSN is given to the person claiming it or not. Every single federal and state department is supposed to be using E-Verify for any new Hires. Cops get the SSN from DMV records within few seconds and match it to the name via E-Verify. E-Verify matches SSN, date of birth, Name etc. This is the first level of verification that Cops do. 100% of legal resident pass through this initial verification without fail. Yes.... 100% of legal resident pass. If the held-up person fails this test, then cops ask more question to know who the person is.

SSA - Social Security Administration, keeps a flag against all SSNs, to differentiate between who is a citizen, who is a greencard holder, who is on what kind of other Visas. It is this flag that helps cops in deciding what to do next.

If the held-up person does not have any identification at all, and can not answer satisfactorily about his presence in USA, then cops take him to station for further questioning, before handing him over to ICE. If you think this is moronic, can you think of a better procedure?

So, before you start another of your racist ramblings against cops being rednecks or morons, first try to gather information on how cops work, then decide whether they are moron or not. If you don't do that, you yourself look like the adjective you use for cops. I'm sure you are a brown-colored person. How many times have you been stopped by cops for no reason? My brother lives in Virginia, which was the first state to give powers to police to check residential status of people they were stopping for other violations. He has never been stopped by cops, and he is a brown color person. So are all his Indian friends, none of whom have been stopped, or if stopped then asked about their residential status.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2009, 04:31:49 PM »
i am now in agreement with Ruchir that automatic citizenship at birth is probably bad. Children born out of legal immigrants should only be automatically become citizens.
I somewhat agree with the sentiment but disagree with the recommendation. Practical execution poses serious challenges. What if a US citizen has a kid with an illegal immigrant? Is one parent being a citizen good enough? This will lead to paternity testing (birth certificates only require identification of the mother). What if the US citizen has a kid with a visitor, or a person on an H1 - essentially any non-immigrant?

Quote
If you are here illegally you have no claim to any healthcare

This is very inhumane. What if an illegal immigrant is badly injured and suffering and needs serious medical attention. In the article you posted, poor Jose was hit by a drunk driver. Yes, I think we as tax paying citizens have to suffer the cost and subsidize such health care. I am not happy doing that, but I think we have no choice.

Our ire should be directed at the lax rules in allowing illegal immigrants to enter the country and the double standards in exploiting them as a labor force. Farming in the US would be hugely impacted without the illegal immigrant labor work force. Many extremely hard working and generally honest illegal immigrants do the most menial of jobs. Attack the fundamental problem, not a side effect.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:38:56 PM by ஓஓஓஓஓ »
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2009, 05:07:18 PM »
Quote
So, before you start another of your racist ramblings against cops being rednecks or morons, first try to gather information on how cops work, then decide whether they are moron or not.

 Ruchir, after your recent 'A Suggestion' thread , surprised to see such post from you. Above has the potential to derail this thread, don't you think? because, now Dex has to come up with either his own * to throw at you or go into detailed analysis as to why he is not racist, both of which approaches will not add much to topic under discussion.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 05:45:04 PM by flute »
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2009, 05:33:00 PM »
i am now in agreement with Ruchir that automatic citizenship at birth is probably bad. Children born out of legal immigrants should only be automatically become citizens.
I somewhat agree with the sentiment but disagree with the recommendation. Practical execution poses serious challenges. What if a US citizen has a kid with an illegal immigrant? Is one parent being a citizen good enough? This will lead to paternity testing (birth certificates only require identification of the mother). What if the US citizen has a kid with a visitor, or a person on an H1 - essentially any non-immigrant?
well ... just because things are murky does not mean we have no answers. lets have some discussions and solve that problem.

So for example 1 illegal father + 1 illegal mother = kid has no citizenship. Lets agree on that. That takes care of about 80% of the problems .... wild guess.

Then other cases can be discussed.

Quote
Quote
If you are here illegally you have no claim to any healthcare

This is very inhumane. What if an illegal immigrant is badly injured and suffering and needs serious medical attention. In the article you posted, poor Jose was hit by a drunk driver. Yes, I think we as tax paying citizens have to suffer the cost and subsidize such health care. I am not happy doing that, but I think we have no choice.

Our ire should be directed at the lax rules in allowing illegal immigrants to enter the country and the double standards in exploiting them as a labor force. Farming in the US would be hugely impacted without the illegal immigrant labor work force. Many extremely hard working and generally honest illegal immigrants do the most menial of jobs. Attack the fundamental problem, not a side effect.

it is inhumane. but let me repeat. if you are here illegally you have NO CLAIM. does the us have any responsibility to take care of someone who gets hit by a car on the streets of Mexico city? we may do some humanitarian aid for some but does not make it our obligation. Same way ... if someone is dying ... on a humanitarian basis we may give them urgent care ... but why does that make us liable for their long term care?

To me, if someone is dying they should get taken to the hospital. They may receive care but then the hospital should be required to disclose their illegal status to the authorities and deport the person. If this stops the illegals from seeking care then its their fault. Everyone has to make a choice of their own healthcare. I chose to go or not go to the hospital.

the other part of the argument is fair. they should be stopped from coming in. But two wrongs dont make a right. stop that illegal immigration ... but failing to stop one crime does not make us owe them anything.
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ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2009, 05:38:44 PM »
Quote from: ruchir link=topic=21615.msg284331#msg284331
So, before you start another of your racist ramblings against cops being rednecks or morons, first try to gather information on how cops work, then decide whether they are moron or not.
Ruchir, after your recent 'A Suggestion' thread , surprised to see such post from you. Above has the potential to derail this thread, don't you think? because, now Dex has to come up with either his own * to throw at you or go into detailed analysis as to why he is not racist, both of which approaches will not add much to topic under discussion.

Excuse you, but I had a disclaimer in that post -- that I love such kind of posts. Also, I tried to edit as much as I could but felt the necessity to leave something behind.

Actually, the part that you have quoted, I don't see absolutely anything wrong with it. I am simply asking Dex to do some homework before calling people rednecks and morons. Is that too much to ask? You should have actually quote the part I am quoting below:
Quote
If you don't do that, you yourself look like the adjective you use for cops.

This is where I tell Dex that he is making himself look like the adjective he is using for cops because he is making his statements based on incomplete information. And even in doing so, I am being extremely polite. I don't even use the word he has used. I'm not sure what more I can do to let my feelings being known politely.
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flute

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2009, 05:49:07 PM »
Quote from: ruchir link=topic=21615.msg284331#msg284331
So, before you start another of your racist ramblings against cops being rednecks or morons, first try to gather information on how cops work, then decide whether they are moron or not.
Ruchir, after your recent 'A Suggestion' thread , surprised to see such post from you. Above has the potential to derail this thread, don't you think? because, now Dex has to come up with either his own * to throw at you or go into detailed analysis as to why he is not racist, both of which approaches will not add much to topic under discussion.

Excuse you, but I had a disclaimer in that post -- that I love such kind of posts. Also, I tried to edit as much as I could but felt the necessity to leave something behind.

Actually, the part that you have quoted, I don't see absolutely anything wrong with it. I am simply asking Dex to do some homework before calling people rednecks and morons. Is that too much to ask? You should have actually quote the part I am quoting below:
Quote
If you don't do that, you yourself look like the adjective you use for cops.

This is where I tell Dex that he is making himself look like the adjective he is using for cops because he is making his statements based on incomplete information. And even in doing so, I am being extremely polite. I don't even use the word he has used. I'm not sure what more I can do to let my feelings being known politely.
if you think calling a poster racist is conducive to debate and still think you are consistent with the spirit of your own "suggestion" thread, then I have no response for you. :)

apology accepted. To each his own, if you felt the need to leave something behind, what gives you the right to suggest to others not to leave something(you seem to take the full authority to define this something) behind as long as it is within rules?

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ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2009, 06:04:56 PM »
I somewhat agree with the sentiment but disagree with the recommendation. Practical execution poses serious challenges. What if a US citizen has a kid with an illegal immigrant? Is one parent being a citizen good enough? This will lead to paternity testing (birth certificates only require identification of the mother). What if the US citizen has a kid with a visitor, or a person on an H1 - essentially any non-immigrant?

Advocates of change in automatic citizenship law (me included) say that in order for a child born in USA to get citizenship, at least one parent should be legal resident of the country. Legal resident means just that - legal resident. It can be citizenship, greencard, any kind of visa. However, advocates also suggest a change in the manner in which citizenship is given:

1) If one of the parent of the child is US citizen, then the child gets automatic citizenship.

2) If neither of the parents of the child are US citizens, but one of them is legal resident, the child does not get citizenship but a similar dependent visa as that of legal parent, expiring the day visa of legal parent expires. So, if parent is on H1, child gets H4. If parent is greencard holder, child gets a greencard.

3) If both parents of child are illegal residents, the child does not get any legal residential status. It becomes illegal too, since a child can not be separated from the parents.

4) The child can not be used by any or both parents as a tool to extend their stay in USA. If they are on visa and their visa expires and can not be extended, then they take the child back to their country of birth.

Case example - My wife and I applied for citizenship by naturalization. We got it. But do you know that our son got provisional citizenship only!! His proof of citizenship is his US passport, not the certificate of naturalization. We still have his greencard. Why so? Because according to law, when he reaches age of 18, he will make the choice whether he wants to retain US citizenship or go back to Indian citizenship. He will have to file that paperwork to get his certificate.

So, if US is not giving automatic citizenship to child of those who are becoming citizens by naturalization, then what is the logic of giving automatic citizenship to the child whose both parents are in US illegally?



This is very inhumane. What if an illegal immigrant is badly injured and suffering and needs serious medical attention. In the article you posted, poor Jose was hit by a drunk driver. Yes, I think we as tax paying citizens have to suffer the cost and subsidize such health care. I am not happy doing that, but I think we have no choice.

Inhumane.... maybe so....


But here is a fact fo you. In US, by law no emergency room can deny service to anyone if there is life threatening emergency. This law is already in place and all illegals visit emergency room. They visit if they have cold, fever, whatever. So, what you are asking is already in place. I disagree with it in principle because Jose should not have been here in the first place (to get hit by anything) but I am willing to live with it as a matter of humanity.


Our ire should be directed at the lax rules in allowing illegal immigrants to enter the country and the double standards in exploiting them as a labor force. Farming in the US would be hugely impacted without the illegal immigrant labor work force. Many extremely hard working and generally honest illegal immigrants do the most menial of jobs. Attack the fundamental problem, not a side effect.

Absolutely correct. We have to take measures to stop illegals from coming in, to shut down businesses who hire illegals. Also, it does not matter what jobs illegals do. Their doing menial jobs is not the issue. The issue is them using US health care for free, without paying for it.

Free access to health care, free citizenship to kids, and using anchor babies are the three biggest reasons why illegals come here. I submit that it is very difficult to completely stop illegal immigration. They will find ways and means to cross over illegally.

What US should do is to take certain measures that actually discourages illegal immigration. The best ways are stopping the facilities that are most attractive to them -- jobs, health care, citizenship to kids. You take away these 3 things from illegals and in my estimation illegal immigration will drop by 80%-90%. If that happens, it will be a huge huge relief on already straining US economy.

Reagan granted asylum to 6 million illegals in 1980s and in 2000s we have about 20 million of them. If we grant asylum to 20 million, how many will we have in 2020? More importantly, will US be able to handle/absorb/sustain all of them?
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ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2009, 06:14:16 PM »
if you think calling a poster racist is conducive to debate and still think you are consistent with the spirit of your own "suggestion" thread, then I have no response for you. :)

Did I call him a racist? I read my post again and couldn't find the part where I called him a racist!! I called part of his post racist because he was calling cops - redneck.


apology accepted. To each his own, if you felt the need to leave something behind, what gives you the right to suggest to others not to leave something(you seem to take the full authority to define this something) behind as long as it is within rules?

Thanks for apologizing. I don't need permission or rights from anyone to make a suggestion. I can give free advice to any one, whenever I want and wherever I want to give. No one can stop me from doing that. In fact, no one can stop you from doing that too!!! Whether people take the advice or not is their prerogative. Also, I don't make any rule, neither have I professed any. I have asked people not to comment on the poster but on the post. I myself have done exactly that here.

(you seem to take the full authority to define this something) - Couldn't understand this. Can you please explain?
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ramshorns

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2009, 06:56:14 PM »
I would want to see a day in the U.S. when all of the so called illegals who work so hard many harder than the citizens themselves be granted citizenship.  What we have 20 million of them or so.  That is fine.  U.S. is gaining big time from them for all the services they provide and get pittance in return for all the risks they take to make it here for betterment of their lives.  No big deal grant them the papers. 

I hope Obama does it.   If he does I will again vote for him.   Actually I take that back.  No matter what I am voting for a Democrat because by abbreviation the party (R) denotes racist IMO. :)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 07:04:31 PM by ramshorns »
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dextrous

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2009, 07:12:20 PM »
I'd like to see why white construction workers working in the Arizona heat to earn minimum wage. Maybe when the day comes the whole of Phoenix will stop looking like a construction zone.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2009, 08:13:56 PM »
I just don't get it..isn't the Hypocrisy of us all, including the citizens and legal migrants not obvious especially the brown folks? indians are the first ones who run to an illegal migrant for any handy man work, knowing full well, they will get a good deal, but you don't want to take care of their health? It is the humane thing to do...if not, it is as if we are saying, they can stay illegal as long as they work real hard for pittance, but as soon as they need health coverage or other expenses, we are going to deport them.

Let us not fool ourselves, IS IT NOT OBVIOUS? the world's sole super power with the world's latest tecnhology and best systems at its disposal would never have allowed illegal immigrants into US if they were really not needed for the economy? It is a nice , lil arrangement, allow them to sneak in illegal so that we can make them work hard at third world salaries in a first world economy. There is a reason why there are so many labour related restrictions on a high tech job applying for a H1B. your avg american is competing for those jobs and they want to protect them, but not the menial work those illegals are willing to do.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2009, 08:21:19 PM »
I somewhat agree with the sentiment but disagree with the recommendation. Practical execution poses serious challenges. What if a US citizen has a kid with an illegal immigrant? Is one parent being a citizen good enough? This will lead to paternity testing (birth certificates only require identification of the mother). What if the US citizen has a kid with a visitor, or a person on an H1 - essentially any non-immigrant?

Advocates of change in automatic citizenship law (me included) say that in order for a child born in USA to get citizenship, at least one parent should be legal resident of the country. Legal resident means just that - legal resident. It can be citizenship, greencard, any kind of visa. However, advocates also suggest a change in the manner in which citizenship is given:

1) If one of the parent of the child is US citizen, then the child gets automatic citizenship.

2) If neither of the parents of the child are US citizens, but one of them is legal resident, the child does not get citizenship but a similar dependent visa as that of legal parent, expiring the day visa of legal parent expires. So, if parent is on H1, child gets H4. If parent is greencard holder, child gets a greencard.

3) If both parents of child are illegal residents, the child does not get any legal residential status. It becomes illegal too, since a child can not be separated from the parents.

4) The child can not be used by any or both parents as a tool to extend their stay in USA. If they are on visa and their visa expires and can not be extended, then they take the child back to their country of birth.

Case example - My wife and I applied for citizenship by naturalization. We got it. But do you know that our son got provisional citizenship only!! His proof of citizenship is his US passport, not the certificate of naturalization. We still have his greencard. Why so? Because according to law, when he reaches age of 18, he will make the choice whether he wants to retain US citizenship or go back to Indian citizenship. He will have to file that paperwork to get his certificate.

So, if US is not giving automatic citizenship to child of those who are becoming citizens by naturalization, then what is the logic of giving automatic citizenship to the child whose both parents are in US illegally?

Good points, that I feel are reasonable. As I mentioned, I am with you in spirit on this. I am now sold! What I feel could be impractical is proof of legality of a father who had a kid with an illegal immigrant mother, with the non-trivial stats on out of wedlock childbirth today. I agree that this is unlikely to be an appreciable percentage.

Quote
This is very inhumane. What if an illegal immigrant is badly injured and suffering and needs serious medical attention. In the article you posted, poor Jose was hit by a drunk driver. Yes, I think we as tax paying citizens have to suffer the cost and subsidize such health care. I am not happy doing that, but I think we have no choice.

Inhumane.... maybe so....


But here is a fact fo you. In US, by law no emergency room can deny service to anyone if there is life threatening emergency. This law is already in place and all illegals visit emergency room. They visit if they have cold, fever, whatever. So, what you are asking is already in place. I disagree with it in principle because Jose should not have been here in the first place (to get hit by anything) but I am willing to live with it as a matter of humanity.

I am aware of the law and I agree with you that he should have not been here. I am glad you see the humanitarian side, once he got seriously injured and had to be hospitalized.

Quote
Our ire should be directed at the lax rules in allowing illegal immigrants to enter the country and the double standards in exploiting them as a labor force. Farming in the US would be hugely impacted without the illegal immigrant labor work force. Many extremely hard working and generally honest illegal immigrants do the most menial of jobs. Attack the fundamental problem, not a side effect.

Absolutely correct. We have to take measures to stop illegals from coming in, to shut down businesses who hire illegals. Also, it does not matter what jobs illegals do. Their doing menial jobs is not the issue. The issue is them using US health care for free, without paying for it.

Free access to health care, free citizenship to kids, and using anchor babies are the three biggest reasons why illegals come here. I submit that it is very difficult to completely stop illegal immigration. They will find ways and means to cross over illegally.

The bolded part is not at all true, Ruchir! While I am positive that some have crossed the border for precisely those reasons, the overwhelming majority are here for sending money back home because of the abject poverty they live in. I am not an emotional guy at all, but it has moved me greatly on occasion to see how hard some of these folks work for a pittance. Many of them sport a work culture that this generation of Americans must salute.

Having said that, I am with you that selective citizenship rules like you have laid out causes the US citizen children and anchor baby issues to be moot. You seem to be with me that emergent care has to be provided for humanitarian reasons, once they happen to be here, legal or not. So the sore point appears to be  health care expenses for non-emergent situations. I would love to see figures for how much this burden is on the tax payers. If I am not mistaken, a doctor can refuse services on lack of payment/insurance if it is non-emergent,  although I do acknowledge that in unclear situations, they provide service anyway.
 

Quote
What US should do is to take certain measures that actually discourages illegal immigration. The best ways are stopping the facilities that are most attractive to them -- jobs, health care, citizenship to kids. You take away these 3 things from illegals and in my estimation illegal immigration will drop by 80%-90%. If that happens, it will be a huge huge relief on already straining US economy.

Reagan granted asylum to 6 million illegals in 1980s and in 2000s we have about 20 million of them. If we grant asylum to 20 million, how many will we have in 2020? More importantly, will US be able to handle/absorb/sustain all of them?

We are in agreement that illegal immigrants should be stopped. Employers of illegal immigrants should be held hugely liable. Where we disagree is your belief that suspending citizenship privileges for their children would cause the illegal immigration rates to plummet. I don't think that will have appreciable effect. The reason they are here is overwhelmingly economic, even if citizenship is totally off the table. I am not making the case that, hence, "selective citizenship" should not be implemented. It perhaps should, but it will hardly dent the magnitude of illegal immigration we have going on.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 10:09:38 PM by ஓஓஓஓஓ »
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 08:29:26 PM »
indians are the first ones who run to an illegal migrant for any handy man work, knowing full well, they will get a good deal.

Blind generalization. Some Indian immigrants I know (and me too) have hired only legal folks when we could have taken the less expensive way out. I disagree that Indians are worse than other demographic groups in displaying such hypocrisy.
 
Quote
Let us not fool ourselves, IS IT NOT OBVIOUS? the world's sole super power with the world's latest tecnhology and best systems at its disposal would never have allowed illegal immigrants into US if they were really not needed for the economy? It is a nice , lil arrangement, allow them to sneak in illegal so that we can make them work hard at third world salaries in a first world economy. There is a reason why there are so many labour related restrictions on a high tech job applying for a H1B. your avg american is competing for those jobs and they want to protect them, but not the menial work those illegals are willing to do.

I agree that there is double standard at play and it needs to be addressed; I said so in my initial post on the thread for what it is worth. I disagree that it is carefully/viciously planned and executed, if you are implying that. What has happened has happened and it is not politically expedient for the government to clamp down.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2009, 02:46:13 AM »
I would want to see a day in the U.S. when all of the so called illegals who work so hard many harder than the citizens themselves be granted citizenship.

Nothing but blatant lie and misinformation spread by democrats. There is absolutely no proof to support this allegation, except "quote" from democrats and their supporters. However, if you want I can provide you with facts on how illegals are harming US economy.


What we have 20 million of them or so.  That is fine.  U.S. is gaining big time from them for all the services they provide and get pittance in return for all the risks they take to make it here for betterment of their lives.  No big deal grant them the papers. 

US has gained nothing from illegal aliens. Oh yes, actually they have gained diseases, that were eradicated from US long ago, they have gained crime, they have gained poverty. As I said, in 1980s Reagan granted amnesty to 6 million illegals and 20 years later their number has grown to 20 million. So do your math, whether it is a big deal or not. Simple common sense, my friend.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2009, 03:04:13 AM »
I just don't get it..isn't the Hypocrisy of us all, including the citizens and legal migrants not obvious especially the brown folks? indians are the first ones who run to an illegal migrant for any handy man work, knowing full well, they will get a good deal, but you don't want to take care of their health? It is the humane thing to do...if not, it is as if we are saying, they can stay illegal as long as they work real hard for pittance, but as soon as they need health coverage or other expenses, we are going to deport them.

Speak about yourself, my friend. Don't make such generalizing and degrade other immigrants. For the record, I moved cities a couple years ago and did not go driving to a 711, trying to find illegals. I hired people from a professional company (BTW they were all blacks) and shelled out $1100.00 from pocket. Unlike others (whom you may be pointing toward) I try to practice what I opine.


Let us not fool ourselves, IS IT NOT OBVIOUS? the world's sole super power with the world's latest tecnhology and best systems at its disposal would never have allowed illegal immigrants into US if they were really not needed for the economy? It is a nice , lil arrangement, allow them to sneak in illegal so that we can make them work hard at third world salaries in a first world economy. There is a reason why there are so many labour related restrictions on a high tech job applying for a H1B. your avg american is competing for those jobs and they want to protect them, but not the menial work those illegals are willing to do.

Agree. If US politicians want, they can stop illegal immigration tomorrow. And I am against every politician (as far as immigration reform goes) who says that it is difficult to stop illegal immigration. Sure some will still sneak in, but if you can reduce it by 90%-95%, that will be a job well done. So, when I argue against giving free health care to illegals, I argue with a mind set that they should not be here in the first place, no matter what.

Disagree about visa restrictions. You have never applied for a janitor visa, or lettuce picker visa, or a landscaper visa, so you don't know what restrictions are there and aren't. Truth is that there are lot of restrictions on visas for landscape workers, aggri workers. That's the reason why these workers cross over illegally. Because of their geographical proximity, these workers find it very easy to cross into the country illegally, while so-called high tech job applicants find it near impossible to come to US illegally because they don't live in Mexico. Believe me, if Mexico had college graduates, and they could cross over illegally, there would be no need whatsoever of giving H1s and other working visas. Mexicans would fill these job illegally anyways.
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ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2009, 03:32:34 AM »
Quote
What I feel could be impractical is proof of legality of a father who had a kid with an illegal immigrant mother

Well, if the mother wants her child to be a citizen or have a visa, she needs to bring the father up. You can't expect govt to give citizenship when an illegal mother is hiding identity of the father.


Quote
While I am positive that some have crossed the border for precisely those reasons, the overwhelming majority are here for sending money back home because of the abject poverty they live in. I am not an emotional guy at all, but it has moved me greatly on occasion to see how hard some of these folks work for a pittance. Many of them sport a work culture that this generation of Americans must salute.

That's what they say, the reason of immigration being money. Census stats show that 27% of jailed inmates for violent crimes are illegal aliens. Considering that illegals are 20 million in count, the fact that they make up 27% of prison population gives a completely different picture. You personally get to see only a select few illegals out of the entire sect of this population. If you look at the bigger picture, you see a different image. Sure there are many who take their work very seriously because they know their work ethics is the only thing that can guarantee continuous employment. But not everyone is like them. At least Census figures give a different picture.


Quote
I would love to see figures for how much this burden is on the tax payers. If I am not mistaken, a doctor can refuse services on lack of payment/insurance if it is non-emergent,  although I do acknowledge that in unclear situations, they provide service anyway.

I will provide figures. Yes, a doctor can refuse service, but illegals are smart too. It is well documented that they don't go to doctors. They go straight to emergency rooms, for everything, from cold to fever to heart attack. How do they know that they should go to emergency rooms for free service? Mexican govt has printed pamphlets that are distributed in Mexico on what to do after you have entered US illegally. Also, the coyotes, who act as guides for these people during cross over, provide them with all the guidance they need to survive in US after crossing over. Anyway, back to the point of getting health care, ilegals don't go to the doctors, they go to emergency rooms. Result - 57 emergency rooms in PA closed last year because they could not sustain loses they were incurring in giving out free services.


Quote
Where we disagree is your belief that suspending citizenship privileges for their children would cause the illegal immigration rates to plummet. I don't think that will have appreciable effect. The reason they are here is overwhelmingly economic, even if citizenship is totally off the table.

OK... so you do believe that there is abject poverty in Mexico, right? If there is abject poverty, then surely Mexican health services can not be top notch too. Right? On top of that, Mexico does not have a universal healthcare system. On top of that, whatever emergency rooms or whatever they are called there, are in Mexico, they don't provide free health service to anyone who walks in. Mexico does not have such a law. SO, now comes the big point. You have a poor Mexican. He needs money. He looks at USA. These days he sees that economy is bad, so maybe not a big chance of landing something immediately. Still illegal immigration has not seen a big drop. So what prompts the poor Mexican to come to US? Surely it has to be the knowledge that if he gets sick, he will have a chance of getting free doctor service in an ER; that if he survives and hooks up with a woman and becomes a father, he can try to stay in US by filing a court case based on the parentage of the child should be be found and deported.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2009, 04:14:00 AM »
Quote
While I am positive that some have crossed the border for precisely those reasons, the overwhelming majority are here for sending money back home because of the abject poverty they live in. I am not an emotional guy at all, but it has moved me greatly on occasion to see how hard some of these folks work for a pittance. Many of them sport a work culture that this generation of Americans must salute.

That's what they say, the reason of immigration being money. Census stats show that 27% of jailed inmates for violent crimes are illegal aliens. Considering that illegals are 20 million in count, the fact that they make up 27% of prison population gives a completely different picture. You personally get to see only a select few illegals out of the entire sect of this population. If you look at the bigger picture, you see a different image. Sure there are many who take their work very seriously because they know their work ethics is the only thing that can guarantee continuous employment. But not everyone is like them. At least Census figures give a different picture.

I have seen different figures being thrown about, who do you trust? It would be helpful to provide a reference with the numbers. If I accept that illegal immigrants are a disproportionately high number among incarcerated persons, how does that in any way void my contention that their primary reason for illegally immigrating is primarily economic? Poorer people - especially undocumented workers with no bank accounts and living below poverty levels - like illegal immigrants - are more likely to commit crimes. Of course, I don't condone it, but it does not imply their reason for illegally immigrating was to steal from individuals / rape / murder.

Quote
Quote
I would love to see figures for how much this burden is on the tax payers. If I am not mistaken, a doctor can refuse services on lack of payment/insurance if it is non-emergent,  although I do acknowledge that in unclear situations, they provide service anyway.

I will provide figures. Yes, a doctor can refuse service, but illegals are smart too. It is well documented that they don't go to doctors. They go straight to emergency rooms, for everything, from cold to fever to heart attack. How do they know that they should go to emergency rooms for free service? Mexican govt has printed pamphlets that are distributed in Mexico on what to do after you have entered US illegally. Also, the coyotes, who act as guides for these people during cross over, provide them with all the guidance they need to survive in US after crossing over. Anyway, back to the point of getting health care, ilegals don't go to the doctors, they go to emergency rooms. Result - 57 emergency rooms in PA closed last year because they could not sustain loses they were incurring in giving out free services.

If they go to emergency rooms for common non-emergent ailments, physicians do not admit them in the hospital. The costs go sky-high when admitting. Yet, I concede the costs are bad enough for even visitation without admittance. They may hand over a few medicine samples out of compassion, but they do not cover the cost of antibiotics or prescription medicine, unless admitted. The emergency room visits alone can't make for a high percentage of unreimbursed ER costs as a whole. I will stand corrected and revise my opinion if you dig up credible stats on this.

What I have heard and read, but again have no authoritative stats on -- is that illegal aliens tend to come into the ERs when it is already late and the illness has gone to a stage where it is serious. If health care were affordable, or if they were insured, they might have visited earlier and engaged in pro-active prevention. I am not arguing that this suggests that they should be given free care always or anything of that sort. I am using this observation made by many, to suggest they generally delay their ER visits because of their situation, making those eventual visits more serious in nature.

Quote
Quote
Where we disagree is your belief that suspending citizenship privileges for their children would cause the illegal immigration rates to plummet. I don't think that will have appreciable effect. The reason they are here is overwhelmingly economic, even if citizenship is totally off the table.

OK... so you do believe that there is abject poverty in Mexico, right? If there is abject poverty, then surely Mexican health services can not be top notch too. Right? On top of that, Mexico does not have a universal healthcare system. On top of that, whatever emergency rooms or whatever they are called there, are in Mexico, they don't provide free health service to anyone who walks in. Mexico does not have such a law. SO, now comes the big point. You have a poor Mexican. He needs money. He looks at USA. These days he sees that economy is bad, so maybe not a big chance of landing something immediately. Still illegal immigration has not seen a big drop. So what prompts the poor Mexican to come to US? Surely it has to be the knowledge that if he gets sick, he will have a chance of getting free doctor service in an ER; that if he survives and hooks up with a woman and becomes a father, he can try to stay in US by filing a court case based on the parentage of the child should be be found and deported.

As I have said, I am sure these examples of motivation you provide are accurate for some of these illegal immigrants. I reject how you strongly conclude that they are the primary motivator for a majority, just because the economy has tanked. The tanking US economy still allows more opportunities than those found back home for them, from a net income perspective.

A majority of the persons who come over are not sick and do not plan to exploit the situation anticipating sickness. A majority do not use "anchor babies" to latch on to the country. And the majority work in farm jobs and other manual labor where the industries have only been too keen to have non-unionized, undocumented workers with minimal wage pressure. 

Finally, let us face it. If there is collective will, this problem can be remedied wrt future illegal immigrants. The politicians and the electorate just lack this will.


« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 04:24:02 AM by ஓஓஓஓஓ »
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2009, 06:34:11 AM »
I find this whole reaction over illegal immigrants very tacky. Why are you guys so touchy about getting taxed and supporting illegal immigrants? Why are you losing your sleep? Even India has subsidized your education( with Indian tax-payers' money) and yet you guys are settled in USA and serving there. Do the tax-payers here in India act so touchy? And I think we are having bigger problems of accountability here.
Even we in India support a whole lot of illegal immigrants by paying taxes, but I don't  see this kind of reaction here.
I feel, your attitude betrays a touch of pseudo-elitism. I am sorry...I just feel so.
I can understand that you guys are legal US citizens, but why make such a big deal of it here in this forum, or wherever you live.
Is poor Jose pinching your pocket that hard?!
This is the difference may be, between India and America..........the element of humanism. Now don't list out the number of charities that you are sponsoring.....it hardly makes a difference with an attitude like yours.( I am sorry about this).
Bless your stars that you have made it, while simultaneously, thousands of equally or more qualified ppl couldn't.

P.S-: I'll contribute towards Jose's treatment, if it comes to that.....and I don't pay taxes to the US Govt.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 07:31:24 AM by Blwe_torch »
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flute

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2009, 12:20:07 PM »
I find this whole reaction over illegal immigrants very tacky. Why are you guys so touchy about getting taxed and supporting illegal immigrants? Why are you losing your sleep? Even India has subsidized your education( with Indian tax-payers' money) and yet you guys are settled in USA and serving there. Do the tax-payers here in India act so touchy? And I think we are having bigger problems of accountability here.
Even we in India support a whole lot of illegal immigrants by paying taxes, but I don't  see this kind of reaction here.
I feel, your attitude betrays a touch of pseudo-elitism. I am sorry...I just feel so.
I can understand that you guys are legal US citizens, but why make such a big deal of it here in this forum, or wherever you live.
Is poor Jose pinching your pocket that hard?!
This is the difference may be, between India and America..........the element of humanism. Now don't list out the number of charities that you are sponsoring.....it hardly makes a difference with an attitude like yours.( I am sorry about this).
Bless your stars that you have made it, while simultaneously, thousands of equally or more qualified ppl couldn't.

P.S-: I'll contribute towards Jose's treatment, if it comes to that.....and I don't pay taxes to the US Govt.
Blwe, after so many years, for the first time  :) Well said. ::cheers::
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2009, 12:39:08 PM »
Speak about yourself, my friend. Don't make such generalizing and degrade other immigrants. For the record, I moved cities a couple years ago and did not go driving to a 711, trying to find illegals. I hired people from a professional company (BTW they were all blacks) and shelled out $1100.00 from pocket. Unlike others (whom you may be pointing toward) I try to practice what I opine.
ruchir babu, sab kuch aap ke bhare mein nahi hain.. :) aap itna bhi mahan nahi hain :D I was of course generalizing..it doesn't mean I am rejecting or denying exceptions.   You might have or might not have hired illegals, personally, I too hired illegals at times and I liked working with them. I found them honest and hard working but unprofessional and undisciplined. But specific examples are irrelevent here. From my experience, many many indians have no qualms about hiring illegals, and in cases where they hire professionals, it was for their own personal selfish reasons and definitely not for the legal/illegal immigrant reason. I know it is easy to reject it as your own example, but remember, I travelled from coast to coast including texas etc., and I met a cross section of indians of various back grounds, regions and at various stages of their immigrant status. NONE, absolutely NO ONE had any reservations about hiring an illegal immigrant. It is not even an issue for us. Still, I am not rejecting exceptions.

Like Blwe mentioned, this whole country is built on immigration, being so touchy and self righteous about these illegals ( whose very existence in this country points to legal resident's hypocrisy) is simply out of place. IMO, this country needs more diversity and more infusion of diverse cultural and religious strains. Broad cultural diversity will move this country away from the ever-at-war attitude.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2009, 01:30:54 PM »
I find this whole reaction over illegal immigrants very tacky. Why are you guys so touchy about getting taxed and supporting illegal immigrants? Why are you losing your sleep? Even India has subsidized your education( with Indian tax-payers' money) and yet you guys are settled in USA and serving there. Do the tax-payers here in India act so touchy? And I think we are having bigger problems of accountability here.
Even we in India support a whole lot of illegal immigrants by paying taxes, but I don't  see this kind of reaction here.
I feel, your attitude betrays a touch of pseudo-elitism. I am sorry...I just feel so.
I can understand that you guys are legal US citizens, but why make such a big deal of it here in this forum, or wherever you live.
Is poor Jose pinching your pocket that hard?!
This is the difference may be, between India and America..........the element of humanism. Now don't list out the number of charities that you are sponsoring.....it hardly makes a difference with an attitude like yours.( I am sorry about this).
Bless your stars that you have made it, while simultaneously, thousands of equally or more qualified ppl couldn't.

P.S-: I'll contribute towards Jose's treatment, if it comes to that.....and I don't pay taxes to the US Govt.

well ... put your money where your dirty mouth is. lets see you shell out your share. Your first installment will be about $2000.  Make the check out to CP and i will make sure that it gets to the right person :)

and now that your high horse will be done and your dum will be between your legs again, understand one thing ... many of us did not study on the government dime .... neither in govt schools or gov colleges. But even for those who did, they look at what they return to the country. The telephone booth that you operate pays you a big dime courtesy of the opening of the economy fueled by a lot of NRI investment. I have run into a lot of incompetent idiots in India who would have been selling seeng dana on the streets of bangalore but for the NRI's who have promoted India as a outsourcing center.

now to the american immigration system that you know nothing about. Legal immigrants have worked hard to get to where they did. We pay taxes ... and possibly due to their higher incomes, higher taxes than the average jose or blwe. It is fair to expect to have an opinion on where my money should be spent.

and talking of humanism? How many examples would suffice where an Indian dies on the road side due to lack of care where his fellow country men walk right by him  and the same govt fails to provide any level of care ... because the telephone booth operators making big bucks (among a whole lot of others) just find ways not to pay enough taxes to take care of their own.

and yeh doosron ko paise denge? yeah right. Humanism my toe!
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ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2009, 01:56:50 PM »
I have seen different figures being thrown about, who do you trust? It would be helpful to provide a reference with the numbers. If I accept that illegal immigrants are a disproportionately high number among incarcerated persons, how does that in any way void my contention that their primary reason for illegally immigrating is primarily economic? Poorer people - especially undocumented workers with no bank accounts and living below poverty levels - like illegal immigrants - are more likely to commit crimes. Of course, I don't condone it, but it does not imply their reason for illegally immigrating was to steal from individuals / rape / murder.


There is a big difference in saying that they come here primarily to work and saying that they come here primarily for economic reason.

If you say they come here to work, then it makes sense... that they want to earn an honest living. If you say they come here for economic reasons, then it does not mean that they want to earn their living honestly. It can also mean that they just want money. Since they are not finding it in Mexico, they come to USA to make money by whatever means possible. THIS is why the incarceration figure is important, because it clearly shows that Mexicans don't come here simply to work. They come here to make money by whatever means possible. That is why I personally don't want them here.

As for figures, here are some links:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1604385/posts
Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2007/270707Statistics.htm
Fortunately, a number of congressmen requested that the General Accountability Office (GAO) investigate and report information on criminal aliens incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails. The resulting GAO report, published in April 2005, revealed that illegal aliens make up 27% of the prison population.

I'm sure there will be many site claiming just the opposite, so it depends on the reader on what you want to believe.



If they go to emergency rooms for common non-emergent ailments, physicians do not admit them in the hospital. The costs go sky-high when admitting. Yet, I concede the costs are bad enough for even visitation without admittance. They may hand over a few medicine samples out of compassion, but they do not cover the cost of antibiotics or prescription medicine, unless admitted. The emergency room visits alone can't make for a high percentage of unreimbursed ER costs as a whole. I will stand corrected and revise my opinion if you dig up credible stats on this.

What I have heard and read, but again have no authoritative stats on -- is that illegal aliens tend to come into the ERs when it is already late and the illness has gone to a stage where it is serious. If health care were affordable, or if they were insured, they might have visited earlier and engaged in pro-active prevention. I am not arguing that this suggests that they should be given free care always or anything of that sort. I am using this observation made by many, to suggest they generally delay their ER visits because of their situation, making those eventual visits more serious in nature.


Quite possible that they delay their ER visits. So what? There is nothing we can do about it. They guys are here illegally. Actually, their residential status don't matter. Everyone in USA pays something to get healthcare, so should they. Having said that, I will submit that yes, there are many uninsured people who avail the ER facilities for free. And my comment on that is that - So what? Any US citizen or legal resident should have access to ER facility because he/she pays or have paid taxes early in their life. They have paid their dues to the govt so unless another solution is found for them, if they use ER facilities I personally will not have that big a heartburn that I will have when an illegal immigrant uses the ER for free.

Do illegals pay taxes? No, they don't because they are usually paid in cash. Since they don't pay taxes they should not be allowed to use any public funded welfare programs, and that includes ER, food stamps etc. etc. I don't like to involve any emotion here. Illegals break US law as soon as they enter in US illegally. Add to that the fact that they don't pay taxes. Hence they should not be allowed to use any public funded welfare program.

Some figures:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm
In Texas, where the state comptroller estimates illegal immigrants cost hospitals $1.3 billion in 2006, the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston is considering denying cancer care to such immigrants.


http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm
In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.



As I have said, I am sure these examples of motivation you provide are accurate for some of these illegal immigrants. I reject how you strongly conclude that they are the primary motivator for a majority, just because the economy has tanked. The tanking US economy still allows more opportunities than those found back home for them, from a net income perspective.

A majority of the persons who come over are not sick and do not plan to exploit the situation anticipating sickness. A majority do not use "anchor babies" to latch on to the country. And the majority work in farm jobs and other manual labor where the industries have only been too keen to have non-unionized, undocumented workers with minimal wage pressure. 

Finally, let us face it. If there is collective will, this problem can be remedied wrt future illegal immigrants. The politicians and the electorate just lack this will.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. It does not matter to me that these illegals work in bad conditions. Why? Because no one asked them to come here!!!!!!! They come here knowing fully well that they will not be treated properly, that they will be exploited, and yet they still come. So why should I bother in what conditions they are working? They let themselves be exploited. Had they come through proper channel (by getting a visa) I can guarantee you that they would have had some sort of medical coverage, got minimum pay, would have been able to live decently and without fear. Yet, they choose to come here illegally. They reap what they sow, and I don't shed a tear for them.

Still......

Latino population is the largest growing group of population in US, according to census dept. Latino population will become the largest minority, overtaking blacks, by 2025. Still you think majority of illegals don't use "anchor babies"? IMO the alarming Latino growth and alarming growth in illegal immigration are interlinked. I have seen many programs on TV where representative of Latino groups (who are against illegal immigration) say clearly that they know for sure that as soon as a Mexican couple lands in US illegally, the first thing they do is to try to conceive a baby (not literally but figuratively). Even if they come single, they try to hook up with illegals of opposite gender and try to have a baby because the current US law gives automatic citizenship to any child born here. And after the child is born, even if the parents are caught, they file a lawsuit through ACLU to stay in the country on the ground that US can't throw out a minor US citizen and as parents they should be allowed to stay back to take care of the US citizen child. You may choose to disbelieve this but this is told by a legal resident who happens to be a Mexican and knows first hand that this happens all the time, every time.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2009, 02:32:40 PM »
ruchir babu, sab kuch aap ke bhare mein nahi hain.. :) aap itna bhi mahan nahi hain :D I was of course generalizing..it doesn't mean I am rejecting or denying exceptions.   You might have or might not have hired illegals, personally, I too hired illegals at times and I liked working with them. I found them honest and hard working but unprofessional and undisciplined. But specific examples are irrelevent here. From my experience, many many indians have no qualms about hiring illegals, and in cases where they hire professionals, it was for their own personal selfish reasons and definitely not for the legal/illegal immigrant reason. I know it is easy to reject it as your own example, but remember, I travelled from coast to coast including texas etc., and I met a cross section of indians of various back grounds, regions and at various stages of their immigrant status. NONE, absolutely NO ONE had any reservations about hiring an illegal immigrant. It is not even an issue for us. Still, I am not rejecting exceptions.

I have no doubts on my mahanta.

As for saying that some Indians hire these people when they need them, why should they object when these illegals use free medical services -- read below.

When anyone hires an illegal for a job, he is not giving that person full time employment. He is giving that person very limited employment and paying that person an hourly rate for the work done. That's it. The relationship ends there. Just because you hired a person does not mean that now you have to support the person for rest of his life, or you should not object to that person using free public welfare scheme without paying any taxes.

Example - let us say you are working for your employer (in IT or any other field) on an hourly basis. In this scenario, does your employer give you health insurance? No he doesn't. He expects you to pay for your own health insurance. However, since you are paying taxes on your salary, you can make use of a public welfare scheme should the need arise. Does the illegal alien pay taxes? No. So why should he be able to use any public welfare scheme that is funded by tax money that he is not paying?

So, it does not matter whether anyone hires illegals or not. It is completely irrelevant to the issue. Just look at them as any other hourly working individuals. Every one either buys their own insurance or pays for their medical bills. Why should illegals be an exception to this rule? I don't understand this. If they don't pay taxes that fund the public welfare schemes, then why allow them to use it?

And now I'm sure you will come up with a reasoning that if not paying taxes is whats causing heartburn then why not tax illegals. To this I will say - yeah, go ahead, try that. Ask employers of these illegals to start paying them by check so that they can be taxed and see how many employers do that. That will be the end of this argument. Question - since you have hired illegals, would you have been able to pay them by check, so that they could pay taxes and satisfy the criteria to use public welfare? I ask this question because I know they would have refused the check and asked for cash.




Like Blwe mentioned, this whole country is built on immigration, being so touchy and self righteous about these illegals ( whose very existence in this country points to legal resident's hypocrisy) is simply out of place. IMO, this country needs more diversity and more infusion of diverse cultural and religious strains. Broad cultural diversity will move this country away from the ever-at-war attitude.

This is for you and BLWE --

You guys either don't know or don't want to understand the history of immigration in USA. I have typed this many times before and am typing it again.

Immigration was encouraged in late 1800s and early 1900s, in USA from Europe because at that time US was growing and it did not have enough people to do all kinds of jobs.

That is when politicians of that time came up with the "automatic citizenship" law. This law was specifically designed to invite immigrants from Europe to come and settle in USA. However, the main important point here is that this law was designed keeping in mind the situation of THAT time and era.

As time passed, this law became defunct and unnecessary but was never repealed or modified to keep up with changing times. In today's world USA does not need immigrants to come in droves. Yes, USA was built by immigrants, but it does not mean that for ever and ever till this planet lasts, USA should allow uncontrolled immigration - simply because at the early age of this nation it encourage immigration.

Anyway, in today's time (keeping in mind the national security), USA needs very controlled immigration. USA does not need to give automatic citizenship to every child born here. This law needs to be changed, but no politician has balls to do it.


Another thing to chew on.... No country on this planet can survive for long if it faces a continuous and uncontrolled immigration of POOR people. Yes, I said it. As bad as it may sound, I said it. No country can provide for a huge number of poor people. In India we talk about poverty and sub standard living conditions. Well, if illegal immigration does not stop, USA will soon become a third world country. Why do I say that? I say that because rich people don't come here illegally. ONLY POOR people come here illegally. Poor people bring with them lots of diseases too. There have been outbreaks of many eradicated diseases in Arizona, Texas, California. How did that happen? Is it a good thing that eradicated diseases are showing up again in USA? Is it a good thing that you have 20 million poor people living in USA when they should not be here at all??? Just think about it. Show me one country on this planet that has been able to provide for 20 million poor people, who don't pay taxes but use public welfare scheme. No country has done it before and USA will not be able to do it.

Any kind of immigration has to be controlled immigration. If USA needs unskilled people to do unskilled or low paying jobs and there are not enough americans found then by all means invite people from Mexico to do these jobs... but do that in a legal way. If you do that legally, at least you can be sure that there are very high chances that these people won't be criminals and won't be sick.

Diversity and Culture bull* has nothing to do with this topic. There are already many people of different religion and cultures who live in USA legally. So, it is irrelevant to the topic of illegal immigration. How the phuck does it matter what religion or culture the illegal immigrant is of? Would I be softer on an Indian illegal immigrant? Heck NO. Would I be harder on a Mexican illegal immigrant? Heck NO.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2009, 03:11:39 PM »
There is a big difference in saying that they come here primarily to work and saying that they come here primarily for economic reason.

If you say they come here to work, then it makes sense... that they want to earn an honest living. If you say they come here for economic reasons, then it does not mean that they want to earn their living honestly. It can also mean that they just want money. Since they are not finding it in Mexico, they come to USA to make money by whatever means possible. THIS is why the incarceration figure is important, because it clearly shows that Mexicans don't come here simply to work. They come here to make money by whatever means possible.


Your leap to 'make money by whatever means possible' is not backed even by the links you provided. And thanks for the links, by the way, it is worth digging into. As I mentioned, there is likely to be higher crime from much poorer, more desperate, less educated folks -- the strata in which illegal immigrants squarely fall. I am not condoning it and I feel it is a consequence of their situation than an outright goal which you claim.

Anecdotally, have you commonly heard folks who hire illegal immigrants worry about their safety. These folks are widely hired for labor jobs - moving houses as you mentioned. A largely criminal and exploitative mindset in that group would not cause most people to hire from the group irrespective of the low costs, would it?

If you are making the point that they should be prevented because of the higher crime stats, I am with you. But I will not agree with the assertion that they come here to intentionally engage in crime.

Quote
Quite possible that they delay their ER visits. So what? There is nothing we can do about it. They guys are here illegally. Actually, their residential status don't matter. Everyone in USA pays something to get healthcare, so should they. Having said that, I will submit that yes, there are many uninsured people who avail the ER facilities for free. And my comment on that is that - So what? Any US citizen or legal resident should have access to ER facility because he/she pays or have paid taxes early in their life. They have paid their dues to the govt so unless another solution is found for them, if they use ER facilities I personally will not have that big a heartburn that I will have when an illegal immigrant uses the ER for free.

Do illegals pay taxes? No, they don't because they are usually paid in cash. Since they don't pay taxes they should not be allowed to use any public funded welfare programs, and that includes ER, food stamps etc. etc. I don't like to involve any emotion here. Illegals break US law as soon as they enter in US illegally. Add to that the fact that they don't pay taxes. Hence they should not be allowed to use any public funded welfare program.


I understand why this causes heartburn for legal, tax paying citizens. I was contesting your claim that illegal immigrants go the ER for small causes that you suggested, arguing the opposite. I am not claiming it justifies their use of the ER with the tax payers subsidizing it.

Quote
Some figures:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm


Thanks - will read them to get a better appreciation of the numbers.

Quote
I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. It does not matter to me that these illegals work in bad conditions. Why? Because no one asked them to come here!!!!!!! They come here knowing fully well that they will not be treated properly, that they will be exploited, and yet they still come. So why should I bother in what conditions they are working?


I did not make this a centerpiece of the argument at all, and did not ask that people should appreciate the conditions they work under. We agree to disagree on 2 things, as far as I can tell:

(1) Illegal immigrants are a major cause for ER financial  / service efficiency mess-ups. I will try to find the data and understand what percentage share illegal immigrants contribute before I harden my opinion.
(2) Illegal immigrants come here primarily to make money through criminal means.


Quote
Even if they come single, they try to hook up with illegals of opposite gender and try to have a baby because the current US law gives automatic citizenship to any child born here. And after the child is born, even if the parents are caught, they file a lawsuit through ACLU to stay in the country on the ground that US can't throw out a minor US citizen and as parents they should be allowed to stay back to take care of the US citizen child. You may choose to disbelieve this but this is told by a legal resident who happens to be a Mexican and knows first hand that this happens all the time, every time.


This is absurd. The number of such cases is very tiny as a proportion to the illegal immigrant population, and invariably each case makes it into the news like the Elvira/Saul Arellano case. You may recall that the mother Elvira made this a flash point by seeking refuge in a church that supported her cause of not being separated from the US citizen child. ACLU got involved, yet she was deported. You seem to suggest that this is the overwhelming trend - it is far from that. The few cases I know of entail some very serious ailment and hospitalization for the child, where a Congressman had to step in and sponsor.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 03:44:19 PM by ஓஓஓஓஓ »
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2009, 04:07:52 PM »
Ruchir,

One question: How many times have people known to you visited the doctor? (Both a rough estimate of the number of people you know and the number of visits). I totally get it that you claim that these illegals would go to the emergency room where the rest of us would go to the doctor for ailments like cold/fever etc. So the number of visits should be comparable.
Now, recall that for a cold the ER doctors should be able to throw the guy out without proper treatment. Why, then, would anyone want to come to the US for healthcare?
This just does not make any sense. Even in the US, there is a constant projection of US as a land of dreams ... if I recall correctly even one of your posts alluded to it as the land of milk and honey. Does it not sound much more likely that these people come here for money .... and when here, they abuse the healthcare system because it presents them a loophole when sick?
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2009, 04:22:25 PM »
Quote from: ruchir
Census stats show that 27% of jailed inmates for violent crimes are illegal aliens.

The Census would be a very credible source and the proportion is quite alarming. Could you please provide a url reference, if available, here?


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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2009, 06:11:36 PM »
Your leap to 'make money by whatever means possible' is not backed even by the links you provided. And thanks for the links, by the way, it is worth digging into. As I mentioned, there is likely to be higher crime from much poorer, more desperate, less educated folks -- the strata in which illegal immigrants squarely fall. I am not condoning it and I feel it is a consequence of their situation than an outright goal which you claim.

For a second, let us assume that it is a consequence of their situation, not their aim, how does it matter? Does it matter WHY they are committing crimes? Who asked them to come here, feel hardship because of their poverty and commit crimes? If they have to commit crimes, it in your own country. Illegal alien criminals are those who should not be in this country to begin with, and this means that if they were not here, the crimes they commit would also not have happened.



Anecdotally, have you commonly heard folks who hire illegal immigrants worry about their safety. These folks are widely hired for labor jobs - moving houses as you mentioned. A largely criminal and exploitative mindset in that group would not cause most people to hire from the group irrespective of the low costs, would it?

If you are making the point that they should be prevented because of the higher crime stats, I am with you. But I will not agree with the assertion that they come here to intentionally engage in crime.

We can disagree, but I will maintain that a sizeable chunk of illegals come to make easy money - via criminal activity.

You talk about illegals being hired as labor, and that if they were thought to be criminally minded, people would not hire them. Let me ask you this - if you personally hired some illegals to help you move house, would you do their background check before hiring them? No you wouldn't. And so wouldn't thousands and millions others who would hire them. Why? Because there would be no means of doing this check.

Since it is not possible to do any kind of verification on an illegal, most people don't even think about it. Now, let me ask you this - if you were looking for a babysitter for your child, would you select someone who did not have any reference, someone whom no one knew? I doubt you would. You would choose someone whom someone knows. But when you go out to hire labor, you don't do that. The mindset is that you already know that it is impossible to have their background checked, so why bother. Also, if a businessman is hiring them, he knows that they are not going to work inside HIS house, so why bother.

Bottom line is that these people find job because they charge least amount of money. People hire them because they know that by taking risk of hiring an unknown person for a small amount of time, they will save money. That's why these people find jobs. Not because people are so sure of them that they put 100% faith in their honesty. When you hire an illegal, you don't know what kind of person you are hiring. That's the truth no one can deny. So, if you are willing to take a risk, go ahead, no one is stopping you.




This is absurd. The number of such cases is very tiny as a proportion to the illegal immigrant population, and invariably each case makes it into the news like the Elvira/Saul Arellano case. You may recall that the mother Elvira made this a flash point by seeking refuge in a church that supported her cause of not being separated from the US citizen child. ACLU got involved, yet she was deported. You seem to suggest that this is the overwhelming trend - it is far from that. The few cases I know of entail some very serious ailment and hospitalization for the child, where a Congressman had to step in and sponsor.

Sir, you are assuming it is a tiny proportion who does that. Legal Mexicans living here are saying the exact opposite. Whom should I believe?

I don't have to tell you why politicians may support such people, but I can tell you why church has started supporting them. There has been a growing trend in US that less number of people visit church now than before. Churches always need more bodies so that they can keep getting money from various sources. Mexicans (specially them) are considered to be very religious minded people, very orthodox. Churches see them potential clients that would increase the head count. That's why some churches have come out in support of any illegal taking their help. Effectively, they are saying that if you come to us, we will give you as much help as possible (while forgetting that you should not be here in the first place).
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ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2009, 06:19:47 PM »
Ruchir,

One question: How many times have people known to you visited the doctor? (Both a rough estimate of the number of people you know and the number of visits). I totally get it that you claim that these illegals would go to the emergency room where the rest of us would go to the doctor for ailments like cold/fever etc. So the number of visits should be comparable.
Now, recall that for a cold the ER doctors should be able to throw the guy out without proper treatment. Why, then, would anyone want to come to the US for healthcare?
This just does not make any sense. Even in the US, there is a constant projection of US as a land of dreams ... if I recall correctly even one of your posts alluded to it as the land of milk and honey. Does it not sound much more likely that these people come here for money .... and when here, they abuse the healthcare system because it presents them a loophole when sick?

No. of doctor visits per year = 3-4, I would say.

No, once you enter an ER, the doctor can not throw you out untreated even if you have non-life threatening illness. That's the law. Once you enter ER, you have to be treated, irrespective of whether you pay or not. If you don't pay, ER sends you a bill at the address you provided.

Look at the links I have posted above. California spends around $10 billion per year on health and education services for illegals. FYI - California has a deficit of $26 billion this year. Imagine, just imagine, if California was not spending $10 billions on illegals, it's deficit would be $16B instead of $26B. Bad, but not as bad as it is now.

I have never portrayed US as land of milk and honey. At least in this thread I have talked mostly about illegal immigration. So, I don't know how to respond to this comment. I have said that getting free health care is one of the 3 reasons why illegals are attracted to US IMO.
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ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2009, 06:20:43 PM »
Quote from: ruchir
Census stats show that 27% of jailed inmates for violent crimes are illegal aliens.

The Census would be a very credible source and the proportion is quite alarming. Could you please provide a url reference, if available, here?

I'm sorry, my mistake. It is not Census but GAO, which is as much credible. It is in the links I provided above.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2009, 06:49:44 PM »
Ruchir - we can go in circles on some of this and get nowhere. Suffice to say I am not supporting illegal immigration in any form. We went off on a tangent where we took opposite sides on their intent when making money. I think the numbers support me, you think otherwise - in the end that is a detail when we agree on the bigger, tangible issue. Thanks for the GAO reference, I will educate myself on the numbers further.

One thing I am rather sure off: lawsuits based on "anchor babies" and family reunification using a minor child effectively as a sponsor, is a rarity. I don't know who your sources are on this, and I struggle to find an authoritative link that shows what I claim are a paltry number of such cases. I was quite intimately apprised of immigration law until 2002 or so and I am certain it was very rare then.

See, if such lawsuits were rampant or even remotely successful, the illegal immigrant number should be shrinking as they legalize! Also, you must be aware of the rule that any criminal activity prevents a person from immigrating. So if crime from them is rampant, even in the (incorrect) case you make of rampant "anchor baby" based immigration, they will be debarred because of a criminal record!

I will stop with this post as I will not have anything further to add to the conversation and you can have the last word.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2009, 03:25:48 AM »
ஓஓஓஓஓ -

Sure we can disagree, but I will say that I had a nice discussion with you.
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Cover Point

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2009, 05:50:30 AM »
more from the apologists. now they are complaining about deporting the criminals too. un-freaking-believable!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/us/26secure.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2009, 11:02:04 AM »
The hospital has no business sending people anywhere.

There's a very good reason ordinary cops do not have the right to deport immigrants, illegal or otherwise, as life would then become hell for brown-colored people in this country even those on legal status. Try explaining the different types of visas to a redneck moron.

First of all, it is extremely in bad taste (maybe racist) to call a cop a redneck. You don't even know who the cops are. Just like you wouldn't like to be called a brownie, it would be in equal bad taste to call a cop a redneck. I doubt if a black cop or a latino cop would like being called a redneck.

Didn't you jump the gun there, my dear Sheriff Vaat Herp(es)? I don't see how dex's words can be understood to mean cops=rednecks. They appear in separate sentences and are not linked. Besides, why are rednecks called so? And historically by whom? The answers to the above q's should indicate the reasons why the term 'redneck' is not racist!


BTW, FYI - Cops don't deport people. Cops merely hand them over to ICE. It is ICE who has the responsibility to deport people.

I don't see dex raising the topic of cops deporting people, but rather your very own wannabe Jindal — CP doing so. Working for US govt has surely made you as dumb as your adopted countrymen.
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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2009, 11:41:24 AM »
The hospital has no business sending people anywhere.

There's a very good reason ordinary cops do not have the right to deport immigrants, illegal or otherwise, as life would then become hell for brown-colored people in this country even those on legal status. Try explaining the different types of visas to a redneck moron.

First of all, it is extremely in bad taste (maybe racist) to call a cop a redneck. You don't even know who the cops are. Just like you wouldn't like to be called a brownie, it would be in equal bad taste to call a cop a redneck. I doubt if a black cop or a latino cop would like being called a redneck.

Didn't you jump the gun there, my dear Sheriff Vaat Herp(es)? I don't see how dex's words can be understood to mean cops=rednecks. They appear in separate sentences and are not linked. Besides, why are rednecks called so? And historically by whom? The answers to the above q's should indicate the reasons why the term 'redneck' is not racist!


there. I made it a large font for you. Dex can teach you english too if needed. If that is not calling a cop redneck then i dont know what is.


Quote
BTW, FYI - Cops don't deport people. Cops merely hand them over to ICE. It is ICE who has the responsibility to deport people.

I don't see dex raising the topic of cops deporting people, but rather your very own wannabe Jindal — CP doing so. Working for US govt has surely made you as dumb as your adopted countrymen.

Me Jindal? nice. Appreciate your faith in my greatness.

and very nice of you to set the bar by calling another mod "dumb".  assuming you dont get banned, i will be sure to use this in every argument from here on out against Dexy and Blwe.
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Busting Gangulian chops since eternity.

ruchir

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2009, 01:55:20 PM »
This is what I loooooove about this DG...  ;D ;D

The hospital has no business sending people anywhere.

There's a very good reason ordinary cops do not have the right to deport immigrants, illegal or otherwise, as life would then become hell for brown-colored people in this country even those on legal status. Try explaining the different types of visas to a redneck moron.


First of all, it is extremely in bad taste (maybe racist) to call a cop a redneck. You don't even know who the cops are. Just like you wouldn't like to be called a brownie, it would be in equal bad taste to call a cop a redneck. I doubt if a black cop or a latino cop would like being called a redneck.


Didn't you jump the gun there, my dear Sheriff Vaat Herp(es)? I don't see how dex's words can be understood to mean cops=rednecks. They appear in separate sentences and are not linked. Besides, why are rednecks called so? And historically by whom? The answers to the above q's should indicate the reasons why the term 'redneck' is not racist!


Good for you, to accept that you have herp(es). Now we know whom to stay away from.

Now it's education time for our very own Mr. Herp(es)....

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/redneck

–noun
1.    an uneducated white farm laborer, esp. from the South.
2.    a bigot or reactionary, esp. from the rural working class.


There you go, Mr. Herp(es). Are you educated now, as to why "redneck" can be a racist term, specially if it is used for a group of people, many of whom are not white, are not bigots, are not poor and are not from south?

If you still have doubts, you can go to your gynecologist and have your merkins checked out to see why you are not 'getting it'.



BTW, FYI - Cops don't deport people. Cops merely hand them over to ICE. It is ICE who has the responsibility to deport people.


I don't see dex raising the topic of cops deporting people, but rather your very own wannabe Jindal — CP doing so. Working for US govt has surely made you as dumb as your adopted countrymen.


Now, how do you know I work for US govt? Did your merkins whisper that in your ears? If they did, I wonder what they were doing up there, or what your ears were doing down there. Wow... what a mystery to solve!!
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dextrous

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Re: Will you pay for Jose's hospitalization?
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2009, 05:37:32 PM »
I find this whole reaction over illegal immigrants very tacky. Why are you guys so touchy about getting taxed and supporting illegal immigrants? Why are you losing your sleep? Even India has subsidized your education( with Indian tax-payers' money) and yet you guys are settled in USA and serving there. Do the tax-payers here in India act so touchy? And I think we are having bigger problems of accountability here.
Even we in India support a whole lot of illegal immigrants by paying taxes, but I don't  see this kind of reaction here.
I feel, your attitude betrays a touch of pseudo-elitism. I am sorry...I just feel so.
I can understand that you guys are legal US citizens, but why make such a big deal of it here in this forum, or wherever you live.
Is poor Jose pinching your pocket that hard?!
This is the difference may be, between India and America..........the element of humanism. Now don't list out the number of charities that you are sponsoring.....it hardly makes a difference with an attitude like yours.( I am sorry about this).
Bless your stars that you have made it, while simultaneously, thousands of equally or more qualified ppl couldn't.

P.S-: I'll contribute towards Jose's treatment, if it comes to that.....and I don't pay taxes to the US Govt.


Very well said blwe. Indians are also known as the 'model minorities' and lots of them think they have some superior reason to be in America than others, so feel justified in sticking their noses at the Joses of the world. At the same time, Indians will not hesitate for a second in keeping their H-1 intact when out of a job by going to the friendly Indian fake IT company guy who can transfer the H-1.

It is ironical in some way to see Indians so materialistic (esp. some hardcore Hindus)--the prime lesson from the Bhagvad Gita seems to be lost on them--tum kya lay the jo tume kho diya! you come with nothing and die with nothing. What's the use of losing words or sleep over the unfortunate ones?
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