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CLR James

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2009, 02:02:01 AM »
Dear Rams,

Boris Becker has a better head to head career record than Lendl and also a 5-1 lead against him in the Slams. Would you say that Lendl is an inferior player than Becker?
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ramshorns

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2009, 02:28:36 AM »
Dear Rams,

Boris Becker has a better head to head career record than Lendl and also a 5-1 lead against him in the Slams. Would you say that Lendl is an inferior player than Becker?
Dear CLR,

You bring up a very valid point here.  However one little correction.  Lendl had a winning record against Becker 11-10.  However I agree that Becker had an edge in the Grandslam meetings though overall Lendl still bettered him.  For your benefit I have posted his records against all the top or World No 1's Lendl had faced. Edberg had a losing record Lendl till late in Lendl's career up until 1991 or so. 

LENDL
Vs Connors: 22-13
Vs McEnroe: 21-15
Vs Wilander: 15-7
Vs Becker: 11-10
Vs Edberg: 13-14 (Edberg won the last 4 matches when Lendl was old)

Please make what you can of the above records against No 1's one time or the other.

Even then Federer's 7-13 is still a question mark against Nadal.  Remember he is the one hailed as the indisputable No 1 not Lendl and in each post I am making compelling arguments for how one can show things against Federer that raise a few question marks.  Also for the record I rated Federer slightly better than Lendl and Borg after the French open win and am astounded by his freakish GS record.   But having said we all have to understand the accomplishments of Lendl and admire and pay respects to what a phenomena he has been in Tennis.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 02:39:56 AM by ramshorns »
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2009, 02:50:17 AM »
Quote
An athlete like Navratilova has always had to live and play under the shadow of a (not always imagined) communist generation of android like athletes -- pumped up by unnatural technologies. Especially when one compared her with the soft and flowery Chris Evert. I suspect even Lendl was not spared that stigma.


Unfortunateky, navratilova became muscular after she arrived in the US. And she bulked up by working hard (aling with basketball star Nacy lieberman) so that she could beat Evert. Any photo of Navratilova in her earlier years (yes, post defection in '75) will show  a person just as soft and flowery as Chris Evert.

Whatever the slant taken by the media, there is very little substantiation to this drug usage behind the Iron curtain allegation.

Quote
But I do believe that the game 'advances' in a certain functional (and unimaginative) sense. Records get broken; technology imparts new templates of endurance and speed to the natural human body. Which is why I know that if Carl Lewis (incarnation 1984) were to race Ussain Bolt today, he would lose (the analogy actually holds kban!), but that does not mean that Bolt is necessarily a more naturally gifted athlete than Lewis. They were just products of different times and different technologies. This is why comparing sporting achievements across ages is, after a point, such a self defeating thing! But we still tend to do it. It is a harmless luxury, never a scientific affirmation, for that is not possible.


I am not sure what analogy you are referring to.

My comment was that the theory of fitter better athletes breaking records (speed records - thats the only type of record that fits the case) holds in a sport like athletics / swimminf. You are saying the same thing by providing another example from athletics.

How this is extendable to tennis is beyond me. For example, the record in tennis would be number of Grand Slams won. Why  a modern player would easily break that record (extending ganavk and your tortured logic forward for the sake of argument) just because he is fitter and stronger than a player in the distant past is beyond me.

because just as the former player was  a product of his times, so were the former players' opponents. By the same token, the modern player is also playing in an era where not only he but also his opponents are fitter and stronger.

So barring the inventionof a time machine that can transport the modern fitter player with his bionic advanced racquet back in timeto play the less fit oldie with his less advanced racquet, I dont see how being fitter and stronger leads to obliteration of records from the past in a sport like tennis.


Quote
That said, here is the one reason why I believe Federer is the greatest: he has the most complete, all court game I have ever seen. Mac's big strength was serve and volley; Connors had an astounding service return (actually his only big weapon); Borg was a great baseliner; Becker had the serve; Agassi had the punishing ground strokes hit on the up. Federer simply has all these, in 'great' proportions even though specific individuals may outstrip him in particular departments. Besides, he also has the numbers and the records to underline that. If all the greats played each other in different surfaces (and using different racquets) till kingdom come, I feel he -- battered, bruised, and humiliated -- would still be the last man standing.


Highly subjective analysis.

Things you forgot to mention:
Connors  was a great baseliner who could also volley very well.
Borg also had  a powerful serve, and incredible stamina and fitness in addition to a great return of serve.
More than Agassi's groundstrokes, its his return of serve which was special -arguably one of the best in the last 30 years or so. he could also volley, he was amazingly fit.

Federer for all his eulogies is not the prototype for the perfect tennis player, neither does he have all of these qualities in "great proportion".

Quote
PS: Dex, I do not think wooden or graphite racquets make a huge difference in terms of career records. After all, the person at the other end is using the same! That determines the speed of play and the strength and stamina it calls for.


Half correct.

Anyone who has played with a wooden racquet knows that its more difficult playing with that. The transition from wood to graphite is  a much easier transition than the other way round. It is expected that most greats would be able to make the transition eitherway. However, since the transition back to wood involves significant loss of control as well as power, it is also the likely to make some current greats (whose games rely primarily on power) less effective in the past should such a transition be required.

I dont believe that applies to Fed, but since you brought up this point, the other part needs to be mentioned as well.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 02:59:33 AM by kban1 »
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2009, 02:54:04 AM »
Quote
also a 5-1 lead against him in the Slams

I believe the 5-1 record in Slams is predicated on 3 victories on Wimbledon Grass (becker' favorite surface, lendl's least favorite surface)  --one of which was the legendary match where the 5th set was gifted by the umpire to becker, and the semi final in the year prior, which was the 4 set loss for Lendl while playing with  a heavily bandaged hamstring.

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CLR James

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2009, 02:57:46 AM »
Dear Rams,

Boris Becker has a better head to head career record than Lendl and also a 5-1 lead against him in the Slams. Would you say that Lendl is an inferior player than Becker?
Dear CLR,

You bring up a very valid point here.  However one little correction.  Lendl had a winning record against Becker 11-10.  However I agree that Becker had an edge in the Grandslam meetings though overall Lendl still bettered him.  For your benefit I have posted his records against all the top or World No 1's Lendl had faced. Edberg had a losing record Lendl till late in Lendl's career up until 1991 or so. 

LENDL
Vs Connors: 22-13
Vs McEnroe: 21-15
Vs Wilander: 15-7
Vs Becker: 11-10
Vs Edberg: 13-14 (Edberg won the last 4 matches when Lendl was old)

Please make what you can of the above records against No 1's one time or the other.

Even then Federer's 7-13 is still a question mark against Nadal.  Remember he is the one hailed as the indisputable No 1 not Lendl and in each post I am making compelling arguments for how one can show things against Federer that raise a few question marks.  Also for the record I rated Federer slightly better than Lendl and Borg after the French open win and am astounded by his freakish GS record.   But having said we all have to understand the accomplishments of Lendl and admire and pay respects to what a phenomena he has been in Tennis.

Oh I do so, in full measure, but grudgingly :). Hated the guy! I was a devastated teenager whenever he would defeat McEnroe or Becker.
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ramshorns

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2009, 03:27:00 AM »
Quote
also a 5-1 lead against him in the Slams

I believe the 5-1 record in Slams is predicated on 3 victories on Wimbledon Grass (becker' favorite surface, lendl's least favorite surface)  --one of which was the legendary match where the 5th set was gifted by the umpire to becker, and the semi final in the year prior, which was the 4 set loss for Lendl while playing with  a heavily bandaged hamstring.
Yep say what you can say of the man Ivan Lendl irrespective of the surface you had to earn your win.  He will always fight you to the death.  That is why I am honored to be his fan and showed my respect by attending his hall of fame enshrinment ceremony in Rhode Island in 2001.  Ofcourse I am lucky enough to be in the U.S.  His entire famliy Wife, Five daughters were very much in attendence.  Bille Jean King was there and she had given a great speech.  Bud Collins spoke richly of the man.  Tony Roche his ex-coach was not in attendence but sent a note that was read out.  And the man himself spoke.  It brought tears to my eyes.  That is how much I admired the man.  He is a perfectionist.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 03:28:33 AM by ramshorns »
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CLR James

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2009, 04:22:57 AM »
Quote
also a 5-1 lead against him in the Slams

I believe the 5-1 record in Slams is predicated on 3 victories on Wimbledon Grass (becker' favorite surface, lendl's least favorite surface)  --one of which was the legendary match where the 5th set was gifted by the umpire to becker, and the semi final in the year prior, which was the 4 set loss for Lendl while playing with  a heavily bandaged hamstring.
Yep say what you can say of the man Ivan Lendl irrespective of the surface you had to earn your win.  He will always fight you to the death.  That is why I am honored to be his fan and showed my respect by attending his hall of fame enshrinment ceremony in Rhode Island in 2001.  Ofcourse I am lucky enough to be in the U.S.  His entire famliy Wife, Five daughters were very much in attendence.  Bille Jean King was there and she had given a great speech.  Bud Collins spoke richly of the man.  Tony Roche his ex-coach was not in attendence but sent a note that was read out.  And the man himself spoke.  It brought tears to my eyes.  That is how much I admired the man.  He is a perfectionist.


He was a perfectionist, but he did not reach perfection. That was Vishy and Federer. :)
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2009, 04:41:30 AM »
there is only one tennis player who has even come close to perfection in the last 30 years or so

And that is McEnroe. Poetry in motion, dazzling brilliance, genius in motion.

Fed needs a few chandeliers to match such incandescence
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dextrous

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2009, 05:29:57 AM »
His career-high singles ranking was World No. 23 (in January 1985). ( Source-: Wiki)
Not 14....it was 23 as per Wiki. I got it wrong.



Yes, the ATP profile also confirms it.

What we wouldn't do to just have a top-100 men's player!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 05:34:07 AM by dextrous »
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CLR James

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2009, 05:43:50 AM »
Dear kban,

I will not reply to your rather nostalgic and thoroughly mistaken post about Mac (he is one of my favoritest players too).  ;D ;D ;D. But I will respond to your more substantial post tomorrow later in the day. You are getting too old. Accept it. Federer is also aesthetically more brilliant than John MaC, the lefty, potbellied, bald genius!  ;D.
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Blwe_torch

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #90 on: June 18, 2009, 06:03:18 AM »
Dear kban,

I will not reply to your rather nostalgic and thoroughly mistaken post about Mac (he is one of my favoritest players too).  ;D ;D ;D. But I will respond to your more substantial post tomorrow later in the day. You are getting too old. Accept it. Federer is also aesthetically more brilliant than John MaC, the lefty, potbellied, bald genius!  ;D.


That would give me serious complex..........I am getting older! :D
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 06:11:17 AM by Blwe_torch »
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ramshorns

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #91 on: June 18, 2009, 11:34:45 AM »
Quote
also a 5-1 lead against him in the Slams

I believe the 5-1 record in Slams is predicated on 3 victories on Wimbledon Grass (becker' favorite surface, lendl's least favorite surface)  --one of which was the legendary match where the 5th set was gifted by the umpire to becker, and the semi final in the year prior, which was the 4 set loss for Lendl while playing with  a heavily bandaged hamstring.
Yep say what you can say of the man Ivan Lendl irrespective of the surface you had to earn your win.  He will always fight you to the death.  That is why I am honored to be his fan and showed my respect by attending his hall of fame enshrinment ceremony in Rhode Island in 2001.  Ofcourse I am lucky enough to be in the U.S.  His entire famliy Wife, Five daughters were very much in attendence.  Bille Jean King was there and she had given a great speech.  Bud Collins spoke richly of the man.  Tony Roche his ex-coach was not in attendence but sent a note that was read out.  And the man himself spoke.  It brought tears to my eyes.  That is how much I admired the man.  He is a perfectionist.


He was a perfectionist, but he did not reach perfection. That was Vishy and Federer. :)
Dear CLR:It all depends on what your definition of perfection is.

To me what defines Lendl is his relentless pursuit to achieving the best and win each game.

He once told after the 1985 84-7 season "My aim is to go an entire year undefeated".  He did not get there but consider the below fact which again is an incredible feat given the day and age he played in.

Only male player to have won at least 90 percent of his matches in five different years

1982: 106-9;
1985: 84-7;
1986: 74-6;
1987: 74-7;
1989: 79-7.

I think Federer has it in him to eclipse the above which is no mean feat considering Lendl won 90% of his matches in a year five times at a time when even the supposed good players were darn good like Mecir, Nystrom, Leconte, Mayotte to name a few.

Ofcourse the perfection Vishy and Federer achieved is entirely different keeping aside the records etc though Federer even in that department too has not that badly himself if anything better than anyone else.   Vishy is Vishy.  So no debate there.  We both know how lucky we are to admire and understand his genius.   He is simply the best.  Coming to Federer do not get me wrong he is a genius too and very pleasing to watch but to me on that front I am with Kban.  To me Johnny Mc's stab volley's at the net is a poetry in motion and everything else comes next in Tennis from a viewers perspective.  So slight disagreement there though you cannot go wrong with Federer.
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2009, 01:45:02 PM »
Quote
You are getting too old. Accept it. Federer is also aesthetically more brilliant than John MaC, the lefty, potbellied, bald genius!   ;D.

I accept that I am getting old.

But I have not lost my memory -- unlike a few others who seem to remember McEnroe as potbellied, and see Federer as more pleasing aesthetically  ::Whip::
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atticus

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2009, 03:15:31 PM »
If only Federer was not as good as he is on clay. Then he wouldn't have met Nadal 4 times in a row at the French Open and lost them all and his overall record against him would be 7-9 instead of 7-13  :evil4:

Of course, this could mean that he does not have the French open title and he would still not be the greatest. Anyway, for those who claim that competition is not the strongest in this era - what exactly should Federer do or have done to make claim to being the greatest? Forget about Federer, is anyone born in the early 80's doomed to not being the greatest because no other great player was born during that period? Even if one agrees that the competition today is not great, I would say Federer has actually done everything he can against such competition. He did reach 20 consecutive semis in grandslam (and counting...). Think about it - he did not miss anything due to injury or fatigue. He never had that one off day that most sportsmen have (Becker, Sampras all arguably better players on grass did lose early in Wimbledon even during their peak years because of one off day). He has barely lost to anyone outside of the top 10 over the past 4-5 years. What else can he do? Sure he could've beaten Nadal more than he has so far. But, if he did so, then his competition would now be termed even more "weaker" since Nadal the only player who is considered "good" would not have 6 Grand slams. There is no question that he belongs in the "greatest" discussion (a discussion that can never ever be conclusive in any field). We should just leave it at that. In tennis, right now that field has Laver, Sampras, Federer, and Borg in my opinion. For some others, it may include a Agassi or a Lendl or a McEnroe. But, there is no question that Federer belongs.
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WicketView

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2009, 04:38:57 PM »
Atticus,

I think the argument that people are making is not that he should not be considered the greatest because of the lack of quality opposition. Your reply would quite correctly answer that.

What they are trying to say is that if you consider Fed the greatest simply because of the mind boggling number of his grand slam wins, which is significantly higher than those of greats of the 80s for example, then you may be misled by the difference in quality. In other words, the large number of wins is still not significantly higher, once you account for this quality change. The argument is similar to how much higher than a 'good' test average, must one's domestic average be to be considered greater than the test players ...  a question that could come up when talking about someone like Barry Richards.

Now, the preferable but subjective way to answer the question is to be able compare his game with others. But, then this requires a lot more expertise, and will still be subject to debates and arguments.
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WicketView

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2009, 04:54:46 PM »
Quote
Actually both Safin and Roddick before Nadal.

 believe the same criteria should hold for Safin as well. For  a player as extraordinarily talented as he was, his failure to raise his game is on him rather than a credit to federer's brilliance as is being argued about here.
Obviously ... and I think what you talk of is possibly a nice way of either confirming or refuting your point as to whether Federer was responsible for keeping his down.
Quote
 
I am sure you are familiar with seedings. the no 1 player gets to play the no 2 in the finals. And usually no 4 in the semis provided there are no upsets. The no 2 and no 3 player plays in the other semis.

So if federer has 3 such great rivals who could not reach greatness because of federer's divinity, then given a large sample, it is conceivable that he would meet the # 2 or # 3 in the finals more often than not. And meet the #4 in the semis.
the seedings system does not always recognize players on the rise. For example, in Federer's first W win, he also beat Roddick
though the final was against Phillippousis. I recall that he also played Nadal vey early once.
Quote
Now extend ganavk's argument further and choose 3 great but not great (by virtue of Fed stonewalling them through his brilliance) players --his 3 greatest rivals excluding Nadal and see if they show up consistently in the GS finals list or even as the losing semi finalist (loss to federer) on a consistent basis!
...
I like this idea. But I would suggest a few refinements.
1) Excluding Nadal does not make sense at all to me. So I think we should include everyone.
2) There should be a comparison with other greats too. For example, if you say Borg/McEnroe was great in the 75-81/79-85 stretch, we should check how their competitors match up against this comparison.
3)It is somewhat useful to also think about rankings at the time of playing. As a competitor to Edberg/Becker say, McEnroe in 1990 was really nobody, and so he should not be thought of as the same McEnroe as the 1981. This will however be too much work, so I will not go into those details.

If anyone would like to suggest things that have been missed, or even better ideas (I had an idea which I posted earlier), please shoot away.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 04:58:27 PM by WicketView »
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2009, 05:09:46 PM »
Quote
Obviously ... and I think what you talk of is possibly a nice way of either confirming or refuting your point as to whether Federer was responsible for keeping his down.

Disagree -- there is little ambiguity here because Safin won 1 and lost 1 against federer. Federer did not obliterate Safin.

Safin's injuries and his lack of motivation / mental focus / competition was the reason he never was able to mount a successful challenge against Federer's reign. Of all the players (other than Nadal), he had the game to be a great, but frittered it away.

I fail to see why it should be argued that federer prevented his greatness -- a bolder misstatement couldnt be made.

Quote
the seedings system does not always recognize players on the rise. For example, in Federer's first W win, he also beat Roddick though the final was against Phillippousis. I recall that he also played Nadal vey early once.


Yes, the seeding system does not recognize players on the rise. Just as it does not recognize players on the decline. Which is precisely why a player on the rise or on the decline should be accorded less gravity than one in his prime.

For example, no one credits Connors as having beaten a great opponent when he defeated a 40 year old Rosewell In his first Wimbledon final. Connors's quality of opposition is judged by oppnents he played when his opponents were in their prime.

Similarly, no one credits Lendl as having beaten a great opponent when he beat a 16 and 17 year old Andre Agassi in successive US Open Semi finals. Rather Lendl's quality of opposition is judged by oppnents he played when his opponents were in their prime.


Quote
1) Excluding Nadal does not make sense at all to me. So I think we should include everyone.

nadal was not excluded to deny fed's greatness. Nadal's greatness as a player is already acknowledged. He was excluded only because his record against Fed is well known.

The context of the discussion was "Who other than Nadal has federer played that might be legitimately considered as a great in terms of opposition"

Quote
2) There should be a comparison with other greats too. For example, if you say Borg/McEnroe was great in the 75-81/79-85 stretch, we should check how their competitors match up against this comparison.

Nobody excluded that.
Borg had Connors, McEnroe, and Vilas to contend with.
Connors had Borg, McEcnroe, Vilas, Lendl to contend with
McEnroe had Borg, Connors, Vilas, Lendl to contend with
lendl had Connors, McEnroe, Wilander, Becker, Edberg to contend with

In each of the above scenarios, the contenders were all in their prime --not rising stars and not fading stars.

Quote
3)It is somewhat useful to also think about rankings at the time of playing. As a competitor to Edberg/Becker say, McEnroe in 1990 was really nobody, and so he should not be thought of as the same McEnroe as the 1981.


Nobody mentions McEnroe as a competitor to Edberg and Becker, even though in the latter stages of his career he was a reasonably potent force and a dangerous competitor.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 05:29:54 PM by kban1 »
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2009, 05:28:32 PM »
atticus:

If only Federer was not as good as he is on clay. Then he wouldn't have met Nadal 4 times in a row at the French Open and lost them all and his overall record against him would be 7-9 instead of 7-13  :evil4:

Of course, this could mean that he does not have the French open title and he would still not be the greatest. Anyway, for those who claim that competition is not the strongest in this era - what exactly should Federer do or have done to make claim to being the greatest? Forget about Federer, is anyone born in the early 80's doomed to not being the greatest because no other great player was born during that period? Even if one agrees that the competition today is not great, I would say Federer has actually done everything he can against such competition. He did reach 20 consecutive semis in grandslam (and counting...). Think about it - he did not miss anything due to injury or fatigue. He never had that one off day that most sportsmen have (Becker, Sampras all arguably better players on grass did lose early in Wimbledon even during their peak years because of one off day). He has barely lost to anyone outside of the top 10 over the past 4-5 years. What else can he do? Sure he could've beaten Nadal more than he has so far. But, if he did so, then his competition would now be termed even more "weaker" since Nadal the only player who is considered "good" would not have 6 Grand slams. There is no question that he belongs in the "greatest" discussion (a discussion that can never ever be conclusive in any field). We should just leave it at that. In tennis, right now that field has Laver, Sampras, Federer, and Borg in my opinion. For some others, it may include a Agassi or a Lendl or a McEnroe. But, there is no question that Federer belongs.

Wv has already responded to your post and his post echoes a majority of my thoughts.

I would only answer one question of yours -- which is what should federer have done ?

And the answer is this:

Federer's claim to the greatest is based primarily over his consistency in winning and the astounding numbers he put up. 12 out of 12 GS finals at one stage means a 100% conversion rate.

However, when you put that up against the success rate (inclusive of nadal) and more specifically against Nadal, then it shows that his success rate is similar to that of prior era greats and not phenomenally stupendous as the 12 out of 12 suggests.

Ergo, the inference that had he played quality opposition (such as nadal), his numbers would have been comparatively less impressive.

It is in this context that your question is answered -- what did he need to do more ? he needed to be more successful with Nadal in the fray.

Your counter argument that had he done as well against Nadal, people would have refused to acknowledge Nadal's worth as a player and consequently still refused federer his due is countered on 2 different levels:

One - history.
Lendl won his first GS in his 7th GS Final. yet despite that, there was never any doubt about Lendl's quality as a player or as an opponent. Observers could make that distinction for lendl just as they would have for Nadal, even if federer had beaten nadal.

Two
The record would have shown Nadal meeting Federer in 6 GS finals and losing all or a majority of them. So even with Nadal's losses, Fed would have gotten his due because aside from observation of Nadal's game, people would say that he consistently shows up. Only under this hypothetical condition (of Fed having beaten nadal consistently) would ganavk's logic of Federer denying others' their greatness have some merit.
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CLR James

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2009, 06:00:49 PM »
Quote
Unfortunateky, navratilova became muscular after she arrived in the US. And she bulked up by working hard (aling with basketball star Nacy lieberman) so that she could beat Evert. Any photo of Navratilova in her earlier years (yes, post defection in '75) will show  a person just as soft and flowery as Chris Evert.

Whatever the slant taken by the media, there is very little substantiation to this drug usage behind the Iron curtain allegation.

Bad research on my part apropos Navratilova (I had the idea that she had defected later), but the overall perception stands. Anyway, this is not central to the discussion.

Quote
I am not sure what analogy you are referring to.

My comment was that the theory of fitter better athletes breaking records (speed records - thats the only type of record that fits the case) holds in a sport like athletics / swimminf. You are saying the same thing by providing another example from athletics.

How this is extendable to tennis is beyond me. For example, the record in tennis would be number of Grand Slams won. Why  a modern player would easily break that record (extending ganavk and your tortured logic forward for the sake of argument) just because he is fitter and stronger than a player in the distant past is beyond me.

because just as the former player was  a product of his times, so were the former players' opponents. By the same token, the modern player is also playing in an era where not only he but also his opponents are fitter and stronger.

So barring the inventionof a time machine that can transport the modern fitter player with his bionic advanced racquet back in timeto play the less fit oldie with his less advanced racquet, I dont see how being fitter and stronger leads to obliteration of records from the past in a sport like tennis.


The point that was being made was that the game has 'advanced' in terms of speed and power. What would have been a sure cross court winner against Connors is now easily reached by Nadal. Ergo, pound for pound, Nadal or Federer are better physically equipped athletes than Connors or Borg. This has not much to do with individual talent but with an overall technologization of the sporting field. I agree with the rest of your observation that it is, after a point counter-factual to argue that Fed the natural talent would have done any worse had he been playing in the seventies, or Borg would have done any worse had he been playing today.

Quote
Highly subjective analysis.

Things you forgot to mention:
Connors  was a great baseliner who could also volley very well.
Borg also had  a powerful serve, and incredible stamina and fitness in addition to a great return of serve.
More than Agassi's groundstrokes, its his return of serve which was special -arguably one of the best in the last 30 years or so. he could also volley, he was amazingly fit.

Federer for all his eulogies is not the prototype for the perfect tennis player, neither does he have all of these qualities in "great proportion".

Of course these greats were not one trick ponies! But Federer has a much more rounded game and has MANY (more than the next man in line) of these attributes in great proportions. If you think differently that is fine, but his 'perfectness' requires no further endorsement from either you or me. More than any other player in living memory, his PEER evaluations, made by current and former players who know a think or two about the game, point in that direction. That group, BTW, includes McEnroe. It is all, as you say, subjective analyses, but many more people have weighed in as far as Fed is concerned than they have for other contenders (I have never seen Mac wax so eloquent about Sampras). Again, let me remind you that my subjective claim, that Fed is the greatest, rests on the rounded perfection of his game, not on idle fantasies involving time machines.

Quote
Half correct.

Anyone who has played with a wooden racquet knows that its more difficult playing with that. The transition from wood to graphite is  a much easier transition than the other way round. It is expected that most greats would be able to make the transition eitherway. However, since the transition back to wood involves significant loss of control as well as power, it is also the likely to make some current greats (whose games rely primarily on power) less effective in the past should such a transition be required.

I dont believe that applies to Fed, but since you brought up this point, the other part needs to be mentioned as well.

Now you are being highly subjective and suspect. I have played only once with a wooden piece, that too about twenty years ago in North Bengal. I also admit that I am not good at tennis. But kindly explain why did Borg, when he attempted a come back in the early nineties, opt for a wooden racquet? He is a great champion with pride. Surely he did not want to make a fool of himself. He opted for a primitive instrument against the grain of professional play because he had control issues with the new one. This, despite the fact that he had all the time in the world (more than a decade) to get used to the new tennis environment. Nobody held a gun on his head and asked him to return in say two weeks! Actually our subjective takes must take into account the basic realities of our own subjective positions and those of others. Being a part of our subjective world, we will look at a wooden racquet from a point of view that has the graphite one in the center as normative. Just as for a person belonging to a previous generation like Borg, the graphite racquet must be looked at according to a world view that has the wooden one at its heart. Difficulties in terms of adjustment from one to the other is always relative.





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ganavk

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2009, 06:27:44 PM »
Quote
Obviously ... and I think what you talk of is possibly a nice way of either confirming or refuting your point as to whether Federer was responsible for keeping his down.

Disagree -- there is little ambiguity here because Safin won 1 and lost 1 against federer. Federer did not obliterate Safin.

Safin's injuries and his lack of motivation / mental focus / competition was the reason he never was able to mount a successful challenge against Federer's reign. Of all the players (other than Nadal), he had the game to be a great, but frittered it away.

I fail to see why it should be argued that federer prevented his greatness -- a bolder misstatement couldnt be made.
indeed..do you ever consider lack of motivation also could be due to your incandescent brilliance of your opponent across the net ? Guess not...
Anyway...as CLR mentioned in other post...it does not matter whether I and you argue over whether Fed is the greatest or not. Luminaries such as Sampras, John McConroe , Agassi ( and most of his opponents including Nadal) have mentioned it and I think that is argument enough IMO
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atticus

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2009, 08:07:56 PM »
Atticus,

I think the argument that people are making is not that he should not be considered the greatest because of the lack of quality opposition. Your reply would quite correctly answer that.

What they are trying to say is that if you consider Fed the greatest simply because of the mind boggling number of his grand slam wins, which is significantly higher than those of greats of the 80s for example, then you may be misled by the difference in quality.

But who does that? He does not even have more than Sampras for now. I don't know anyone who specifically mentions that the number of GS (and that alone) makes him the greatest. It is a great contributing factor, obviously.
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2009, 08:21:02 PM »
Quote
The point that was being made was that the game has 'advanced' in terms of speed and power. What would have been a sure cross court winner against Connors is now easily reached by Nadal. Ergo, pound for pound, Nadal or Federer are better physically equipped athletes than Connors or Borg. This has not much to do with individual talent but with an overall technologization of the sporting field. I agree with the rest of your observation that it is, after a point counter-factual to argue that Fed the natural talent would have done any worse had he been playing in the seventies, or Borg would have done any worse had he been playing today.


The point you are missing is that it is highly prejudicial to compare current players with past because players are a product of the prevailing fitness regimen. You further build on that and compare today's fitter player with yesteryears' comparatively less fitter player to draw conclusions about how they would have fared.

This ignores the fact that Connors court coverage was usually superb.

And I really wish you would have left Borg out of the comparison because Borg's stamina, fitness, and court coverage were legendary, definitely one of the best in that regard if not definitively the best (as some tennis observers believe).

Quote
Of course these greats were not one trick ponies! But Federer has a much more rounded game and has MANY (more than the next man in line) of these attributes in great proportions. If you think differently that is fine, but his 'perfectness' requires no further endorsement from either you or me. More than any other player in living memory, his PEER evaluations, made by current and former players who know a think or two about the game, point in that direction. That group, BTW, includes McEnroe. It is all, as you say, subjective analyses, but many more people have weighed in as far as Fed is concerned than they have for other contenders (I have never seen Mac wax so eloquent about Sampras). Again, let me remind you that my subjective claim, that Fed is the greatest, rests on the rounded perfection of his game, not on idle fantasies involving time machines.


That Federer has a more well rounded game is subjective --suffice to say not everyone thinks so.

As regards to former greats and their opinions --its always worth noting that in most cases, greatness bestows upon the great a sense of humility and self deprecation, and perhaps also the knowledge that their legacy is strong enough to survive their own effusive praise of another. It would have been more surprising to me if any of the former greats said differently about Federer.

Read what you will of that.

Quote
Now you are being highly subjective and suspect. I have played only once with a wooden piece, that too about twenty years ago in North Bengal. I also admit that I am not good at tennis.


No, I am not being subjective. I played for several years with wooden racquet before switching to a graphite one. I believe I am right on the money with this.

Quote
But kindly explain why did Borg, when he attempted a come back in the early nineties, opt for a wooden racquet? He is a great champion with pride. Surely he did not want to make a fool of himself. He opted for a primitive instrument against the grain of professional play because he had control issues with the new one. This, despite the fact that he had all the time in the world (more than a decade) to get used to the new tennis environment. Nobody held a gun on his head and asked him to return in say two weeks!


I wish I could explain. There were a lot of things that didnt make sense in that Borg comeback.

For one, he chose an oddball as his coach when his former coach Lennart Bergelin was waiting in the wings, and was actually hurt that Borg ignored him.

It didnt makes sense that he made a comeback at the age of 35 after having taken 10 years off the professional tour. He certainly didnt come back for the game, he came back because he was bankrupt.

It didnt make sense that he prepared less than a few months while making a comeback at 35 after 10 yrs of forced absence.

It also didnt make sense that he barely practiced an hour or so a day as opposed to 4-5 hours of practice and training that other players did --at the time of his comeback.

So, a lot of perplexing and ill thought out decisions which made little sense to anyone.

And oh, by the way, while Borg started out with a wooden racquet in his comeback because he said thats what he felt comfortable with, within a short period of time he had switched to a graphite mid sized head racquet.

So maybe he realized his mistake.

Even so, given that he was a phenomenal athlete in supreme condition during his proper playing days (one of the best in tennis history according to some), was powerful and muscular (Sports Illustrated in 1979 called him the most perfectly musculatered athlete in any sport at any time), and had a strong game (he was hitting outright winners from the baseline with a wooden racquet in the wooden era), you can see why he trusted the teried and tested wooden racquet for his comeback, no matter how poorly chosen a weapon it was given the changes in the game in the 10 years he was away.

Quote
Actually our subjective takes must take into account the basic realities of our own subjective positions and those of others. Being a part of our subjective world, we will look at a wooden racquet from a point of view that has the graphite one in the center as normative. Just as for a person belonging to a previous generation like Borg, the graphite racquet must be looked at according to a world view that has the wooden one at its heart. Difficulties in terms of adjustment from one to the other is always relative.


Sorry to be blunt but this is just plain wrong

Ask the bunch of players who have played with both a wooden and a graphite racquet. Or the experts or the crtitics. It wasnt out of subjective preference that the entire group of 900+ mens tennis players and 900+ women's tennis players changed en masse to the metal / graphite racquet from wood in the early 1980's. For the record, that many individual subjective takes would be considered an UNANIMOUS CONSENSUS.

or even easier, try out both on  a tennis court.
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2009, 08:24:44 PM »
Quote
indeed..do you ever consider lack of motivation also could be due to your incandescent brilliance of your opponent across the net ? Guess not...

Oh I am sure that such lack of motivation only afflicted one generation of tennis players in the 80+ years of tennis being played as a professional sport.

But that same "lack of motivation" plague didnt affect Nadal.

Quote
Anyway...as CLR mentioned in other post...it does not matter whether I and you argue over whether Fed is the greatest or not. Luminaries such as Sampras, John McConroe , Agassi ( and most of his opponents including Nadal) have mentioned it and I think that is argument enough IMO

Read my response to CLR. The greatness of greats lies in being complimentary to others even to the point of deprecating their own legacy. That is hardly the barometer for judging the greatest.
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #103 on: June 18, 2009, 08:27:09 PM »
Quote
But who does that? He does not even have more than Sampras for now. I don't know anyone who specifically mentions that the number of GS (and that alone) makes him the greatest. It is a great contributing factor, obviously.

its is one of the biggest contributing factors of course.

the reason he scores over Sampras (even in my book, although I do not believe Fed was the greatest ever) is his results in french.

Even without the French win of 2009, his results in french show he is adept at clay, something Sampras would never ever stake a claim to.
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atticus

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #104 on: June 18, 2009, 08:39:03 PM »
Federer's claim to the greatest is based primarily over his consistency in winning and the astounding numbers he put up. 12 out of 12 GS finals at one stage means a 100% conversion rate.

However, when you put that up against the success rate (inclusive of nadal) and more specifically against Nadal, then it shows that his success rate is similar to that of prior era greats and not phenomenally stupendous as the 12 out of 12 suggests.

Ergo, the inference that had he played quality opposition (such as nadal), his numbers would have been comparatively less impressive.

Maybe true, may not be true. We'll never know what his numbers would have been with a different level of opposition. That is just an extrapolation that has no right/wrong answer.

Quote
One - history.
Lendl won his first GS in his 7th GS Final. yet despite that, there was never any doubt about Lendl's quality as a player or as an opponent. Observers could make that distinction for lendl just as they would have for Nadal, even if federer had beaten nadal.

Two
The record would have shown Nadal meeting Federer in 6 GS finals and losing all or a majority of them. So even with Nadal's losses, Fed would have gotten his due because aside from observation of Nadal's game, people would say that he consistently shows up. Only under this hypothetical condition (of Fed having beaten nadal consistently) would ganavk's logic of Federer denying others' their greatness have some merit.

Nadal's playing style means that he has a very small shelf life. I think he will last maximum another couple of years before his knees completely give. So, if Fed had actually beaten Nadal say 4 out of 6 times when they met in the finals, I think Nadal would have finished with not more than 2-3 GS's (obviously pure speculation on my part). The comparison with Lendl does not hold because Lendl played for a long time and won a lot more later. So I do believe that Nadal would've been dismissed as serious opposition just like Safin has been (whose problem was mental) or Nalbandian (again a mental case. His game is much more complete than what his results show and he always provides a tough test to Federer) and others who are now non-factors. 

I don't think Fed denied his contemporaries' greatness, but there is no question he denied them their share of GS's. In almost all era's you can easily find one or two surprise GS winners - not that those winners are not great players, obviously to win 7 5-setters is an arduous task and that player must have played at a high level to win the cup. The fact that Fed never took a day off, puts him in the "greatest" field for me. He can only play what he has in front of him and he has always given his best. After losing for so long to Nadal, he could've easily just played one bad semi here or one bad 4th round there in French to avoid meeting him and losing to him again. No one would've said anything because clay is obviously not his strongest. But he still willed himself to keep going to the finals. To keep trying. That is a quality that I admire.
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2009, 08:50:31 PM »
Quote
Maybe true, may not be true. We'll never know what his numbers would have been with a different level of opposition. That is just an extrapolation that has no right/wrong answer.


I agree.

And its that lack of definitiveness that makes me acknowledge him as an all time great but not the greatest ever.

Quote
Nadal's playing style means that he has a very small shelf life. I think he will last maximum another couple of years before his knees completely give. So, if Fed had actually beaten Nadal say 4 out of 6 times when they met in the finals, I think Nadal would have finished with not more than 2-3 GS's (obviously pure speculation on my part). The comparison with Lendl does not hold because Lendl played for a long time and won a lot more later. So I do believe that Nadal would've been dismissed as serious opposition just like Safin has been (whose problem was mental) or Nalbandian (again a mental case. His game is much more complete than what his results show and he always provides a tough test to Federer) and others who are now non-factors. 


You may be right about Nadal's attritional playing style.

However, even if Lendl never won more than 2 or 3 GS but made about 8 finals (instead of 8 slams and 19 finals), would one really be able to dismiss him as a formidable opponent ? I think not - not on the basis of records and not on the basis of quality of play. He may not have been called an all time great but he wouldnt ever be dismissed as piddly opposition.

I believe the same would have held true for Nadal even if Fed won a majority of those matches.

Quote
I don't think Fed denied his contemporaries' greatness, but there is no question he denied them their share of GS's. In almost all era's you can easily find one or two surprise GS winners - not that those winners are not great players, obviously to win 7 5-setters is an arduous task and that player must have played at a high level to win the cup. The fact that Fed never took a day off, puts him in the "greatest" field for me. He can only play what he has in front of him and he has always given his best. After losing for so long to Nadal, he could've easily just played one bad semi here or one bad 4th round there in French to avoid meeting him and losing to him again. No one would've said anything because clay is obviously not his strongest. But he still willed himself to keep going to the finals. To keep trying. That is a quality that I admire.

of course. Fed is one of the all time greats by any definition.

and his play and record and the fact that he has so few off days is hugely admirable.

I guess I stop short of anointing him the "greatest ever". the magnitude of that sobriquet deserves a far more exacting and conclusive evidentiary standard in my mind.

Of course at the end of the day we are both spectators and our opinions are bound to vary.
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atticus

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2009, 09:12:29 PM »
Kban,

Regarding Lendl - I think he would still be hailed as a great competitor even if we won only 2 GS because he played in the "super-competitive" era. I don't think the same holds true for Nadal/Fed. If Fed had dismissed Nadal in those finals, I do think Nadal would've been considered as one more of the other guys. This is just my opinion - nothing I can prove.

Yes, I do agree that "greatest" is always subjective and it is fine to disagree.
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dextrous

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2009, 09:30:04 PM »
Quote
Actually our subjective takes must take into account the basic realities of our own subjective positions and those of others. Being a part of our subjective world, we will look at a wooden racquet from a point of view that has the graphite one in the center as normative. Just as for a person belonging to a previous generation like Borg, the graphite racquet must be looked at according to a world view that has the wooden one at its heart. Difficulties in terms of adjustment from one to the other is always relative.
Surely, CLR, you write this in jest?! Playing tennis with a wooden racquet is like playing pingpong with a pen. My college coach's favorite speech was about how "you're lucky to have made that shot with the bad swing"!
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2009, 09:36:34 PM »
http://www.tennisweek.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=503656

(This is dated 2007, so it did not count Federer's exploits).

1. I think Federer has some distance to go before he can claim he is beyond Rod Laver.

2. I also am with the folks above who opine that his opposition, save Nadal, has not been as top drawer and brilliant as the cluster of players who shared the stage in years past. And Federer has not pulled clearly past Nadal. The only consistently brilliant players in the last few years have been Nadal and Federer. I don't think it is fair to say these two have prevented their competition from being brilliant.

3. The 'peer' admiration factor is very important and Federer is something special. I think it is fitting to compare him with Tendulkar. Tendulkar gets rich, "best-ever" praise from his great peers, like Warne and Lara. Even the Don thought Tendulkar played like him. But it is questionable if Tendulkar easily walks into the top 5 batsmen ever.
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #109 on: June 18, 2009, 10:33:38 PM »
SSL, thanks for the awesome article   :icon_thumleft: -- I think this deserves a post in itself.

************************************************************************
http://www.tennisweek.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=503656

Greatest Player Of All Time: A Statistical Analysis

By Raymond Lee Friday,

September 14, 2007   

I have been watching and reading about tennis players and following the history of tennis for many years now.  The question that come up every year without fail is "Who is the greatest player of all time?"  Since the Open Era began in 1968 there have been many World Champions. 

The first recognized World Champion of the Open Era was the Australian, Rodney George Laver popularly known as "The Rocket." After his Grand Slam in 1969 which was the first "Open Grand Slam" (major tournaments open to amateurs and professionals) many called Laver the Greatest of All Time.

A few years later, in 1974 Jimmy Connors came along and dominated the game with one of the most incredible years a player has ever had, winning three out of three majors entered (he was banned from the French Open because he dared commit the sin of playing World Team Tennis) and 99 of 103 matches played. Connors was called by many to be the Greatest of All Time. Succeeding Connors as number one was Bjorn Borg, who dominated tennis for many years with his seemingly infallible baseline play and passing shots. Borg was also called the Greatest of All Time. Later in the 1970’s came John McEnroe with his great serve and volley and fine touch game. He had a year in 1984 which was something to be believed, winning 13 of 15 tournaments and two of the three majors entered and in the one major he lost that season, Roland Garros, McEnroe led Ivan Lendl by two sets to none in the final. Guess what McEnroe was called by many? The Greatest of All Time! What a surprise!

The same is true for Pete Sampras and currently Roger Federer. They each has been widely extolled as, the You-Know-What of All Time. Well doesn’t it seem strange to you that we have so many players who have been crowned "The Greatest Player of All Time?" Thus far I have only gone back only as far as the year 1968 and it seems that everyone, including your little sister's 2-year-old son has been the crowned the You-Know-What at one time or another.

Tennis has been around way before 1968 so you would think that perhaps some of the top players before that must have been pretty good also. Tennis is a wonderful sport, with a long and glorious history. One of the problems with researching tennis history is that we have very few numbers to back up many of the stories and information that the old players and tennis historians have spoken and written about over the years. The numbers we do have are basically since 1968 and those numbers are often inaccurate. For example Rod Laver has been cited by different sources to have earned 39, 47 or 54 total tournament victories. Those numbers don’t count tournaments before 1968 and don’t include his Grand Slam of 1962 as part of his total tournament victory total. Yet these same sources admit he won the four majors in 1962! Think about this, they don’t count the Australian Championship, French Championship, Wimbledon or the United States Championship (all four major tournaments) in 1962 as one of his career tournament victories but they do count each as one of the majors he won. The players who played before 1968 don’t have any of their tournament victories counted in their records, even if they won majors. All of that is unusual bookkeeping to me and frankly not logical! What the records tell you is that the players pre-1968 didn’t exist and yet on occasion existed! Sounds silly but true nevertheless. Perhaps some scientist who understands Quantum Physics may understand this but I fail to comprehend it.

Since we are not privy to all the tennis records as is the case in many other sports like the NBA or Major League Baseball in the United States we don’t know who is the best statistically. Because of that we often rate players by how smooth their strokes are or how powerfully they can hit the ball. But think about it: It is not how good the player looks, but the results that count. Some players may be beautiful-looking ball strikers but never win anything and some players can have some ugly strokes but they can win majors.

The equipment we use to play tennis has changed dramatically in the last few decades. Today we have super large rackets constructed with space age materials filled with polyester string that allows players to rip the ball as hard as the can and still generate the necessary topspin to keep the ball in the court. With the larger hitting surface there are far fewer mis-hits and it makes it much easier to hit with great spin, especially topspin. The lightness of the materials of these new rackets allow for greater racket head speed which also helps with power and spin. People marvel at Roger Federer’s wonderful shotmaking and are stunned at the angles he can hit. We are amazed at the power of the wonderful female players like Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Justin Henin and Maria Sharapova and how they hit the ball perhaps even harder than the male players of yesteryear! Gee, I wonder what the reason could be?

I’m sure most of the seemingly magical shotmaking is due to the players, but a good percentage of it is owed to the new hi-tech rackets. These rackets even allow a hacker like me to mi s-hit less and that’s saying something! Many of the players of the past would do quite well if magically they were allowed to play with the current rackets in their physical prime. I’m sure Pancho Gonzalez would be able to hit a topspin backhand much more efficiently if he had the rackets of today! But does anyone think that another Gonzalez — Fernando Gonzalez would be able to hit 42 winners and have only three unforced errors in a match several months ago without the current super rackets we have today? I don’t think so.

Rod Laver with his massive left arm and wrist (his left wrist was measured to be as large as the world heavyweight boxing champion) produced topspin off both sides with the small wooden racket-face he used and probably would produce more power and sharper angles than in his best years if today's equipment was available to him in his prime.

One thing that often bothers me about people giving reasons for why they say one player or another is the best ever in tennis history is when they give the amount of total majors won without giving the amount of majors a player has entered. For example Pete Sampras holds the current record for total majors won (Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, United States Open) with 14 but they never say how many of the majors he has entered. Sampras entered 4 majors a year, the maximum possible for a calendar year for the majority of his career. He entered 52 majors and won 14. This is superb but hardly superhuman. It’s just the law of numbers and probability that Sampras, considering he’s great player would win a lot of majors if he entered enough majors. Of course this is assuming he maintains his talent and skill level.

To put it into perspective, Don Budge entered only 11 majors in his entire career, winning 6. Jack Kramer entered only 9 majors in his career, winning 3. They both entered fewer majors than Sampras won! Combined they entered less than half the majors Sampras entered (granted the fields they faced were not nearly as deep as the depth of the game in recent years).

Conditions affecting tournament tennis and the importance of the major tournaments have differed over the years. For example many players in the 1970’s to early 1980’s did not want to play the Australian Open. The reason for this was because while it technically was a major the players did not think it was an important tournament. The other reason was the timing of the event. It was often played toward the end of the year during major holidays in which the players wanted to relax and be with their families. I’m sure if Bjorn Borg, Jimmy Connors or John McEnroe entered the Australian in those days, they would have picked up a few more Australian titles. Borg probably would have won at least three Australian Open titles in my opinion if he played in it from 1976 to 1981, even if all the best players entered. The event was played on grass in those days and Borg was the dominant player on grass for most of that time.

Nowadays with airplane travel the players can easily enter every major tournament with no problems. In Bill Tilden’s, Ellsworth Vines’, Fred Perry’s and Don Budge’s day they would have to travel by boat and lose many weeks of time in travel. Most players did not want to do that at the time because not only would they lose the time but it would affect their play. By affecting their play I mean by travel lag, loss of training time and tournament play because of the lost time spent on a boat to get to the destination.

So a player like Bill Tilden only won 10 majors but he easily could have won more majors if he was able to play in more major tournaments during his peak years.

Here’s a list of the top players we will compare statistically and what type of players they were in their day.

Bill Tilden — The first major superstar in men’s tennis. He was primarily a baseliner as most were during his day. Tilden had wonderful forehand and excellent backhand. He was considered to be the best server of his time. Tilden was not a “natural” at the game. His backhand was a very poor shot (relatively speaking of course) until he worked on his offensive backhand during the winter of 1919-1920 in Providence, Rhode Island. Once he mastered his offensive backhand he became virtually unbeatable and was the best player in the world. He was a very versatile player who could hit with a variety of spins and angles as well as great power. While he was not an exceptional net player he was good enough. Tilden was a brilliant student of the game. His book “Match Play and the Spin of the Ball” is a classic. Generations of tennis players studied and grew up on this book. Tilden was named the “Player of the Half Century” by an Associate Press poll in 1950. Will he still be the Greatest up to now in the 21st century? Perhaps.

Ellsworth Vines — is considered by many to be one of the hardest hitter of the ball in tennis history. Many people including Jack Kramer (who may be a bit partial since he and Vines were good friends and he admits that Vines was his idol) and the noted tennis writer Allison Danzig believe that when Vines was on that he was the best player ever. Legend has it when Vines served his final ace on match point of the 1932 Wimbledon final against Bunny Austin that the ball was hit so hard that Austin did not know which side the ball aced him on. Frankly I find it a bit hard to believe but I suppose it was to make the point about how hard the ball was hit on that match point. Vines was known for his huge serve and his very powerful flat forehand. The forehand had to clear the net by a small margin or else the ball would go out. The backhand was good and Vines had an excellent net game and overhead.

Fred Perry — The top British player of all time. The British have been trying for over 70 years so far to find a replacement for him. It’s almost an impossible task since Perry won Wimbledon three years in a row from 1934 to 1936 and won every major tournament over the course of his amateur career. Perry was extremely fast with seemingly unlimited stamina. He had a consistent backhand and was a good volleyer, but he was known for his strong continental forehand that was hit on the rise. It has been rated by some as one of the best forehands of all time. In "Tennis Myth and Method" by Ellsworth Vines and Gene Vier., Bobby Riggs described Perry as "The most ruthless player who ever walked on a court. An inexorable determination which even outdid Kramer’s or Gonzalez’s. Not only did Perry have the ultimate in competitive spirit but a stamina which was a constant source of awe to opponents. Such a big edge it’s unbelievable."

Don Budge —The first Grand Slam winner. Budge won the Australian, French, Wimbledon and United States Championships in 1938. He had an excellent serve, but he was known for his consistent and powerful groundstrokes and his amazing return of serve. It was said that no one could serve and volley against him and win. His stamina was only average but few players could last long enough to wear him down. There was really no such thing as a "Grand Slam" before Budge won it. His goal was to win the tennis championships of the four top nations, Australia, France, England and the United States but there was no name for it. He put the pressure on himself to win it but it was termed a "Grand Slam" later by a writer. While I’m sure Budge had enormous pressure on him to win the tournaments, I can’t imagine it being as much pressure as Hoad, Laver, Connolly, Court or Graf had when they attempted to complete their Grand Slam attempts with all the people watching and knowing the significance that they could make history. Budge was famous for his fantastic backhand that destroyed net rushers. It was a consistent and powerful shot that he often hit on the rise to pressure his opponents. It has been called the greatest backhand in the history of tennis. Tilden said of Budge, in a comment published in Bud Collins' Tennis Encyclopedia: "I consider him the finest player, 365 days a year, who ever lived."

Jack Kramer — The man who popularized the serve and volley game and percentage tennis. Kramer arguably had the best total serving game in tennis history. They said he was a master of all the different types of serves and could place them anywhere. His second serve was possibly the most effective of all time. This was combined with a powerful volley and overhead made it incredibly hard to break his serve. People have said that Kramer won more sets on one service break than anyone they have ever seen. Kramer had excellent groundstrokes with a very powerful forehand that was somewhat modeled after his idol and teacher Ellsworth Vines. Unlike Vines, Kramer was a very consistent groundstroker and did not make the errors that Vines often did in attempting to hit a winner. Kramer had a solid slice backhand for ground stroking rallies. He was not the quickest player and while his backhand was solid, he could not pass with it as well as his forehand but that of course would be true of a lot of players.

Pancho Gonzalez — Gonzalez was one of the top athletes of all time in tennis and during his prime one of the most natural athletes competing in any sport. Gonzalez probably had the most powerful single weapon in the history of tennis, his awesome serve, which was hit incredibly hard with a smooth effortless motion. Because of that Pancho could serve as hard in the fifth set as in the first. Pancho was particularly good in getting his first serve in on pressure points i.e., break points etc. Gonzalez had an excellent forehand and a good consistent backhand for backcourt exchanges. He usually sliced the ball on his approach shots on his backhand but in the backcourt he varied his shots on that side, slicing it, top spinning, and hitting the ball very flat. He usually did not drive the ball back on his service return but tended to block the ball back softly against the powerful serve and volleyers of his day. He had an awesome net game with tremendous reach. Gonzalez was not generally a hard volleyer in the style of a Sampras, Edberg or Becker, but he tended to angle his volleys away which was also extremely effective. Gonzalez was not a true power player like an Ellsworth Vines or a Don Budge even though he could play that way. Gonzalez was more of touch player who could rally with you with a variety of spins and angles. Many people including Bobby Riggs, Jimmy Connors and Bud Collins have said if they had to pick a player to play one match for their life, they would pick Pancho Gonzalez.

Ken Rosewall — The Doomsday Stroking Machine also nicknamed "The Little Master." Rosewall had groundstrokes that he could hit until Doomsday, or so they say. Rosewall was known for his incredible slice backhand which he never seemed to miss and with which he could hit with great power and accuracy. It is possibly the best slice backhand ever. The Little Master’s forehand was not on the level of his backhand but it was a good consistent shot. Rosewall’s lob was particular tough on the forehand side, which was disguised well. To paraphrase a bit, one player said "That by the time you figured out Rosewall has lobbed on the forehand side, the ball is bouncing on the baseline." Ken’s volley was one of the strongest of all time. It was a consistent penetrating volley on both sides. Despite the fact he was relatively small, he could blanket the net because of his amazing quickness. Rosewall’s speed and footwork was about as good as any player that ever lived. He always seemed to be in the right position to hit the right shot at any time and never seemed rushed. Rosewall was also known for his methodical return of serve. The ball always seemed to come back, often at unusual angles that bothered his opponents. He did not hit winners on the return as much as a Connors or an Agassi (even though he hit more than his share) but he used the return to set up his second shot on the return, much like a Federer does today. Because of his amazing reflexes and quickness Rosewall was rarely aced. It was clearly the outstanding return of his time and possibly of all time.

Rod Laver — The Rockhampton Rocket. The only two-time winner of the Grand Slam which he won in 1962 and 1969. He was a lefty serve and volley player whose had an left arm that was compared to King Kong’s. With the incredible strength in that arm and wrist, he was able to flick winners at astonishingly high speeds. From the baseline Laver usually hit his forehand with topspin but his usual shot from the backhand side was a heavy underspin that was deep with excellent speed. Laver could also hit an incredible amount of topspin winners from that either side when he was on. Laver had enormous speed and stamina. His footwork was exemplary and he was so fast that he could hit winners when the ball seemed out of human reach. He was an excellent volleyer with a great backhand volley hit at sharp angles and great pace. The forehand volley was similar but he could net it at times. Like many players on this list Laver was very versatile and capable of playing many different ways.

Jimmy Connors — The master of the service return. Arguably the best service return of all time. Connors is a lefthanded groundstroker who hit with unbelievable depth, accuracy and power. While Connors had moderate spin on his serve, his strokes were basically flat. His lefty backhand is one of the great shots of all time, but his forehand was also excellent. His only major weakness was a short low no pace ball to his forehand which he could net or over hit at times. Connors did not have an overpowering serve but he moved the ball around and served at a very high percentage. His approach shots were generally so good that he was often left with an easy volley put away. Connors was one of the top competitors of all time. He never gave up on a point and often made astonishing gets like his mind boggling shot against Panatta in the 1978 U.S. Open in which he made an amazing return of a sharp angled Panatta volley on his backhand side and hit it around the net post passed a stunned Panatta. That shot helped Connors win a close match and he went on to win the tournament, beating a young John McEnroe and later Bjorn Borg in the final. Connors had such solid strokes that he rarely mis-hit the ball. He hit the ball more in the center of the racket than just about any player I have ever seen. Connors was possibly the outstanding pure ball striker in tennis history, on a short list that would include several others in this article. He was a consistent player that always played at a high level. He rarely had a bad day and before of that was rarely upset by inferior players.

Bjorn Borg — The Swedish Assassin and the Iceman. Bjorn Borg is possibly the top baseliner of all time. Borg had a two handed backhand usually hit with heavy topspin and a very powerful forehand also hit with heavy topspin. The man seemed to make an error every decade and yet if you rushed the net against him he could pass you with a sharp angle passing shot. Despite the fact Borg is remembered as a baseliner he also backed it up with one of the best serves in tennis. The way he was able to bang service winners or aces on crucial points reminded one of Pancho Gonzalez. He was able to serve and volley effectively if he wanted to. Borg wasn’t the volleyer that McEnroe was (few are) but he was a good volleyer, when moving in off a good approach, and could set himself up for the volley with excellent approach shots. For example Borg charged the net often and effectively in his crushing victory over Jimmy Connors at Wimbledon in 1978. Despite the fact he was facing a man with some of the greatest passing shots in history in Connors, Borg was able to win the huge majority of points at the net. Borg won that match 6-2, 6-2, 6-3. People often mention the McEnroe victory over Connors in 1984 as one of the greatest performances ever at Wimbledon by a player but I think this victory ranks right up there with McEnroe’s. The reason is that in 1984 Connors was over the hill, still good but over the hill. During the 1978 Wimbledon Jimmy was 25 and at the peak of his powers. Connors with the exception of double faulting more than usual played very well and still only won seven games in three sets. Borg seemed to own the French Open, winning there six times and losing twice, both times to the gifted Adriano Panatta. Borg was born for the red clay surface which was slow and allowed him to hit his infinite groundstrokes. With his superhuman speed and stamina (his pulse was measured at 35 beats per minute) he could beat anyone on that surface. People talk about his now legendary victory over John McEnroe in the 1980 Wimbledon final. It was an unbelievable match of course but the match I almost rate on par with that was Borg’s victory over Adriano Panatta and the Italian fans in the 1978 Italian Open final. Panatta, to be honest should not have even been in the final if his opponent, the excellent clay court player Jose Higueras (who was leading by 6-0 5-1) didn’t have coins and cans thrown onto the court when he (Higueras) was playing. Higueras, obviously disturbed by the events, lost the second set, left the court and was defaulted. In the final Borg also had coins and cans thrown at him. The calls were to be nice, a bit dubious. Borg has all this, the crowds was screaming at him and he had a terrific opponent in Panatta to play. How could anyone win under those circumstances? Well Borg calmly picked up some of the coins and put them in his pocket. This lessened the amount of debris being thrown at him because the coins did not have the desired effect of disturbing Borg. Borg won the match in the fifth set. It might have been won in straight sets by Borg under normal conditions. Considering everything, it was one of Borg’s greatest performances. He never played the Italian Open again. Borg accomplished the great feat of winning the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year 3 years in a row from 1978 to 1980. To switch from a slow surface like red clay to an extremely fast surface like grass in a short period of time is amazing. Bjorn Borg was a unique talent the likes of which we may never see again.

John McEnroe — One of the most gifted players of all time. A lefty serve and volleyer who was a superb touch player. That is such a unique combination. He didn’t have the power of an Ivan Lendl for example off the ground but it was good enough. He had an amazing variety of shots and unbelievable versatility. His net play was second to none. In 1984 he had possibly the best year statistically of the open era, winning 13 of 15 tournament, 2 of 3 majors with a 82-3 won-loss record. That’s great but the numbers don’t truly do justice on how wonderfully McEnroe played that year. Observing him that year was like watching a great artist at work. There seemed nothing he couldn’t do. Difficult shots were seemingly made so easily and he seemed to turn screaming passing shots by his opponents into delicate angled drop shot winners at will. His serve was invincible that year but in his prime years it was at worst one of the best if not the best serve in tennis. In the Wimbledon final McEnroe only made two unforced errors in the entire match on grass against Jimmy Connors! McEnroe crushed him by a score of 6-1, 6-1, 6-2 and he didn’t even think it was the best match he played that year.

Ivan Lendl — Lendl was the consummate professional. He was not a natural in the manner of McEnroe or a Gonzalez but he was extremely talented and had a great work ethic. He had the best forehand of his day. It was a terrifyingly powerful shot that was extremely accurate and consistent. His backhand was also extremely strong in backcourt exchanges and very consistent. However he tended to vary his shots more on the backhand side, slicing the ball, top spinning the ball etc. One of his few weaknesses, if you can call it that was that his backhand return was not of the level of a Borg, Connors and a few others. It was not a bad backhand return but it could be attacked. His volley was not at the top level although it was adequate enough for his few attempts to go to the net. Lendl’s serve was very fast but I believe the strength of his serving game was that he had a nice variety of serves which he also placed very well. His second serve was top caliber and was very hard to attack. Being a player who trained constantly, his stamina was excellent and it helped him in long grueling tournaments like the French Open. Lendl was best on surfaces that allowed him to use his consistent and powerful groundstrokes. Grass was probably his weakest surface but he reached the Wimbledon final twice, losing to Boris Becker in 1986 and Pat Cash in 1987. It is a tribute to him that he did so well on grass despite the fact the surface did not suit him.

Pete Sampras — The current holder of the title of most majors won in a career with 14. Pete Sampras is a powerful serve and volleyer with such a very powerful forehand and a good backhand. His volley was excellent but his serve clearly stood out above anything else. Sampras dominated the serving statistics in the 1990’s, winning the most important category of percentage of holding serve in most years. Some players may hit more aces, some may hit the serve a bit harder but no one in the 1990’s backed up his serve better. Sampras also had perhaps the best second serve in the game in his time. People currently are talking about how Roger Federer may eventually break Sampras’ record seemingly unbreakable record of 14 career majors. Well to be honest while it is great that Sampras won 14 majors I don’t think the record for majors would have been at 14 if tennis allowed the players to play in the majors once they turned pro in the Pre Open days prior to 1968 and travel conditions were the same as today. Bill Tilden for example may very well have won over 20 majors if open tennis was around in those days and if he could have traveled on modern airplanes.

Roger Federer — The current number one player and the current candidate for mythical greatest of all time title. Federer is a classical player with a one handed backhand and an awesome forehand, considered currently to be the best in tennis. Roger has an excellent serve with a good volley. In watching Federer nowadays people raved about his ability to seemingly hit winners out of nowhere but I believe the strength of his game is his ability to win points when he is in a defensive position. He has the ability, like many great players to prolong the point and win so many points when it seemed like a lost cause. One of his most underrated shots is the sharp crosscourt slice backhand hit relatively softly. The current players are often puzzled whether they should come in or just move back to the baseline and more often than not, they seem to lose the point. While that shot is a wonderful shot for him, I often wonder how an Edberg, McEnroe or a Sampras, with their great approach shots and net play would have handled that shot. Federer has great movement and anticipation. He is a great player and potentially, if he keeps it up for many years can possibly have the finest record in the history of tennis.

The rating system is similar to the one in which I rated the greatest players of the open era. As in the past I used the following criteria to evaluate the champions with a few minor differences:

Career won-loss percentage
Best won-loss percentage for a five-year period
Career tournament titles
Tournament titles won in a best five-year period
Career percentage of tournaments won
Percentage of tournaments won in a best five-year period
Career Grand Slam titles
Slams won in a best five-year period
Career Grand Slam winning percentage
Percentage of Grand Slams won in a best five-year period

The one problem I had was with the older players like Tilden, Budge, Kramer and Gonzalez who played a high percentage of the time on tours against other all-time greats like Lew Hoad, Ken Rosewall, Frank Sedgman and Tony Trabert among others. I finally decided to put the tours in a separate category and rate them often on the strength of the opponent at the time they played. The other thing I decided to do was to add some points for special achievements like a traditional Grand Slam (winning the Australian, French, Wimbledon and U.S. Open) or a Pro Grand Slam.

Some players like Ken Rosewall for example won the Pro Grand Slam (Pro Grand Slam is winning all the top three major pro titles — French Pro, Wembley Professional Championships and the U.S. Pro Championships) in 1963 which was amazing considering the unparalleled competition he faced with all time greats like Anderson, Hoad, Trabert, Laver, Gimeno and Segura among others. These players were all champions. Budge and Laver got credit for Grand Slams also.

One other problem was the timeline problem. In general players are bigger today and may be better athletes today than the players of yesteryear. It stands to reason that the players in general may be somewhat better today than years ago. The depth of the game today is better also in that there are more good players. The top players cannot breeze through the early rounds like they used to in the past. However I believe the top players are no better today than they were years ago. Players like Gonzalez or Hoad, given the equipment of today would do quite well against the top players of today.

One major exception concerning the level of play may have been those players who played in the Professional Tours in the late 1940’s to the late 1960’s. The level of competition at that time in the pro ranks may have been superior to what it was today by a good margin. The reason is that in the Pros in those days, only the top players would turn pro to earn a living. So you would have the top players turning pro like Lew Hoad, Tony Trabert, Ken Rosewall etc. All of these players are major tournament winners, often former World number ones. So if you are playing in the pro ranks, you are playing the best of the best all the time. Many of these players were all time greats. These players had to improve even from their amazingly high levels just to be competitive. My opinion is that the level of play in those days may have been the highest of all time.

If you take into account the amateur player then perhaps the level of play today may have been better but the players in the pro circuit those days never played the amateurs and therefore never had a breather. For example Rod Laver won a small round robin tournament in 1964 in Australia. It doesn’t seem like a big deal except he beat Frank Sedgman, Lew Hoad and Ken Rosewall! All of these players have been on top ten lists as far as tennis all-timers are concerned. All were still excellent players at that time. In another tournament that year Pancho Gonzalez defeated Mal Anderson (former winner of the United States Championship), Rod Laver (one of the all time greats and at that time a Grand Slam winner with a Grand Slam coming in the future), Lew Hoad (multi winner of Grand Slam titles) and Ken Rosewall, also one of the greats with many victories in the majors. This was not unusual. The level of competition was that high.

So because of what I consider the general improvement of the tournament players I awarded some extra timeline points for the players playing in more recent times as opposed to for example, Bill Tilden in the 1920’s and 1930’s. Federer and Sampras would get more timeline points than Tilden and Budge for example.

I also had some problems with some percentages concerning some players because while we were able to find more tournaments victories than the "official" records we were not able to match the exact percentages after we added the additional tournaments. In this case we simply pro rated the percentages and assumed they were about the same as before.

The other problem were the tournament victory totals. For example we know Rod Laver won at least 188 tournaments but he may have won more. In certain cases we estimated the amount of career tournaments won by a player.

Without further delay I will announce the all time tennis champion. That player is Rodney George Laver aka Rod Laver!

1) Laver
Laver’s accomplishments needs no introduction, he is the only person to ever win the Grand Slam twice! He also won a Pro Grand Slam in 1967 for a total of three Grand Slams in his career. The Pro Slam in 1967 was interesting in that while Laver won the three Pro majors that year, Laver also won the first Pro Tournament at Wimbledon that year over Rosewall in straight sets. The Wimbledon World Pro was perhaps the most important Pro Tournament that year even though it wasn’t a Pro major. In a way you can argue that Laver won five straight Wimbledons if you count the Wimbledon World Pro. The Wimbledon World Pro was so successful that it paved the way for Open Tennis at Wimbledon the next year.

Many people assume Laver was at his peak in 1969 when he won the first Open Grand Slam but Laver was 31 that year and already on the decline. He just was so great that even after the decline he was still by far the best in the world in 1969. I believe Laver was at his best from about 1964 to 1967. These were the years he and Rosewall dominated pro tennis. The level of competition there was extremely high.

2. (tie) Bjorn Borg
Borg was astonishing in this study considering he basically retired at age 25. Borg finished second in the study, tied with Tilden. People are now talking about how Roger Federer today is the greatest of all time and how Federer is tracking ahead of all the old timers like Borg. Frankly that is so wrong. Federer as of September 9, 2007 has won 51 tournaments. Federer is 26 now so a comparison at about the same age between the two is quite appropriate. Borg won 77 tournaments by the time he retired at age 25, which is 26 more than Federer had done at this present time at the age of 26. Borg won 11 majors in 27 attempts. Federer has won 12 majors but in 5 more attempts. Borg has a lifetime .855 winning percentage and Federer as of now has a .803 lifetime winning percentage. How can Federer be called the greatest of all time right now if he’s not even the best player of his own age. This is not meant to downgrade Federer but it’s to show the greatness of Borg that he can leave a great player like Federer in the dust. The competition during Borg’s playing career was excellent. Borg played among others McEnroe, Connors, Vilas, Laver, Rosewall, Ashe, Nastase, Orantes, Newcombe, Tanner all while they were in their prime or at worst still excellent players. Borg can be argued to be the greatest player of all time and is clearly by a decent margin the best of the Open Era.

2. (tie) Bill Tilden
The Legendary Bill Tilden finished tied for second. Tilden is amazing in his almost unreal domination of men’s tennis. It’s a pity he was limited by the lack of plane travel in his day. He was truly a genius of the game. Tilden had an exceptionally long career and was still a competitive World Class player into his 50’s! For example he almost defeated Bobby Riggs in 1946 (when Riggs was Pro Champion) in a match losing only after leading 5-2 in the fifth set.

4. Roger Federer
The current candidate for all time number one. Roger has had an incredible record the last few years. He has an outside chance to make it to number one but it will be extremely hard. He is 137 tournaments away from Laver’s all time tournament victory record so I can’t imagine him breaking that record. He is 11 away from Rosewall’s all time major’s record (including pro majors) so reaching that is a possibility but it won’t be easy. The mere fact that Federer even has an outside chance to reach number one on this study speaks of his greatness. He has to do it quickly however because at 26 years old he’s no youngster. You figure there will be inevitable decline so he must strike now while the window of opportunity presents itself. Federer finished fourth in this study but as I wrote earlier he can move up a bit if he can continue his incredible pace of the last few years.

5. Pancho Gonzalez
The magnificent Pancho Gonzalez finished fifth in the study. Gonzalez was tough to rate since he played a great portion of his career on tours. Gonzalez defeated so many all time greats and his record is one that you can’t help but be stunned at how great it was. Gonzalez defeated players like Tilden, Budge, Kramer, Segura, Laver, Rosewall, even a promising left hander called Jimmy Connors. But his most legendary matches were those against Lew Hoad. Many people feel Lew Hoad was, when he was playing well, the best of all time. Hoad’s downfall was the injury problems that undermined his career or else he would have easily made this list. On that tour against Hoad, Hoad led early 18 matches to 9 but Gonzalez eventually caught up and defeated Hoad by a score of 51 to 36. The level of play on that tour was perhaps the highest ever between two players. It is unfortunate so many people have forgotten about Pancho Gonzalez nowadays and many don’t even rate him in the top ten. He is a legend and the only reason people don’t mention him is his lack of majors because he turned pro early.

6. Ken Rosewall
Another player that people rarely mention when they talk about the all time greats. Ken Rosewall was the top player in tennis for many years but this fact was hidden in the old pro days. Rosewall was far superior to players like Roy Emerson who is often placed ahead of him because he won more majors than Rosewall. That is just a number because if Rosewall was allowed to play the majors at the time Emerson did, Emerson wouldn’t have too many majors and Rosewall would probably have the all time majors title even now. One problem Rosewall had in this study is that while he was an excellent player even at the end of his extremely long career, his numbers are lowered a bit because he did not win too many tournaments toward the end. Yet at the same time he was very competitive and went deep into tournaments like the 1974 Wimbledon and U.S Open in which he reached the final. Another thing people mention was that Rosewall didn’t have enough power to handle the players of today. That doesn’t make sense since Rosewall could hit as hard as anyone when he was number one and with the rackets today he would hit with great power. He was a great pure ball striker who almost never mis-hit the ball. In that way he was similar to Jimmy Connors except he was faster than Jimmy when he was in his prime. If you combine all this with his great touch you had a very tough player that is an all time great. Rosewall finished sixth in this study.

7. Don Budge
When I was young reading about Budge I got the impression he was this awesome player that never lost a match. He was awesome and his record in finishing seventh in this study proves it. What surprised me was that he didn’t win nearly as many tournaments as I expected but he was clearly a great player.

8. Ivan Lendl
With his amazing 143 tournament victories and great consistency Lendl finished eighth in our study. He could have done much better if he won a higher percentage of finals in the majors he played in. Lendl lost 11 of 19 finals in the majors. Of course many of his opponents in finals were all time greats like Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Becker, Wilander etc. Lendl had some major back problems that led to his early retirement. We added 49 victories to Lendl’s official total of 94. This is because of many invitational and tournaments missed by the ATP but nevertheless were true tennis tournaments. Lendl finished eighth in our study.

9. Jimmy Connors
Jimmy Connors is the official ATP all time tournament victories champion with 109 however we found 12 more tournament victories for Jimbo which makes his career total 121, the second highest of the Open Era next to Lendl. He was a super consistent player that rarely had bad days and on some days he could play at inspired levels. That plus the fact he had as great a will to win as any player make him one of the great players of all time. Jimmy finished ninth in the study.

10. Pete Sampras
Sampras is no doubt an awesome player. He is arguably the best grass court player of all time and the number 1 Wimbledon player ever! However he never really had the super dominant year or series of dominant years that people like Tilden, Borg, Laver, McEnroe, Connors or Federer have had. For example Sampras never had a year which he won over 90 percent of his matches. Sampras never won more than two majors in a year. He only won 64 tournaments in his career that while that’s good it doesn’t compare to Connors’ 121, Rosewall’s 130 among others. Sampras has had a Hall of Fame career and his matches and courage under pressure are etched in our memory. Despite all his excellent results he finishes tenth in our study. It was still very close to many of the other players. It’s actually very good considering the legends he was competing against. Sampras’ results in finishing number one six years in a row shows his greatness as a player. It was a tremendous accomplishment against tennis superstars like Andre Agassi, Boris Becker, Stefan Edberg, Lleyton Hewitt, Michael Chang, Gustavo Kuerten, Goran Ivanisevic, Patrick Rafter and Jim Courier.

11. John McEnroe
If I had told you that after John McEnroe’s awesome 1984 season, one of the most dominating seasons that any player has ever that John McEnroe would never win another major, people would have thought I was nuts and understandably so. McEnroe has a series of injury problems that contributed to his decline. It’s a shame. It’s quite possible that when McEnroe was playing his best, his level of tennis was better than anyone that ever played the game but you can say that of a few others in this study and a few players not in this study. McEnroe finished eleventh in our study.

12. Jack Kramer
There is no doubt Kramer was a superb player but he didn’t play enough to rate any higher. Kramer only won about 35 tournaments in his career. Many of the points he accumulated in the study was due to the many tours he played. One thing should be mentioned, Kramer crushed a young Pancho Gonzalez on tour by a score of 96 to 27. If you just look at the names you would think it was a great victory for Kramer but if you look at full picture, you realize while it’s good result, it’s just not that impressive. First of all Kramer was a veteran of many tournaments and was seven years older than Gonzalez. Second Gonzalez learned tennis rather late in life and also delayed his tennis development by joining the Navy at age 17 and being in the Navy for 2 and a half years. Gonzalez won the United States Championship and was signed to a contract to play the World Champion Jack Kramer. For all intents and purposes Gonzalez was a rank amateur with very little playing experience. Gonzalez won the U.S. Championship because of his amazing talent and at this point sending Gonzalez to play Kramer was like sending a lamb to the lions to be slaughtered. Considering all of this I think the 27 match wins by Gonzalez on that tour speaks more of Gonzalez’s greatness than Jack Kramer’s dominance. Aside from that Kramer’s victories on tour were legendary. He destroyed Bobby Riggs to win the title of Pro Champion by 69 matches to 20. He defeated Pancho Segura 64 matches to 28 and Frank Sedgman by 54 to 41. I already wrote about the Gonzalez tour which was still a very good accomplishment. Kramer never lost a tour and retired unbeaten in tours, an excellent accomplishment under any rating system. Kramer’s tennis career declined because he developed a case of severe arthritis was he was 29! This led to an early retirement from active play a few years later except for filling in occasionally when people couldn’t play. Otherwise it’s possible he would have gone on to a much better tennis career than he had. After Kramer’s tournament career as a true competitor was over he devoted himself into promoting Professional Tennis. He also became a very well respected broadcaster and analyst of the game. Kramer finished twelfth in our study.

13. Ellsworth Vines 
Vines was amazing in Big Tournaments with the best percentage record of all the top players. He became more consistent and was a better player as a pro. Vines had some back problems and with his increasing interest in Professional Golf led to his decline and retirement from tennis at a very young age. Later he became an excellent Pro Golfer. Vines finished thirteenth in the study but he may be the best combination tennis/golfer in history.

14. Fred Perry
The Royalty of British Tennis. Perry was outstanding in the area of career percentage of tournaments won, finishing second only to Tilden and he was also very good in percentage of tournaments won over a best five-year period. Other than that his career was not up to the level of many of the top players. A lot of it had to do with some major injuries Perry suffered and never could quite recover from. Perry finished 14th in our study.

As always I couldn’t do this without the tireless help of the incredible Robert Geist. He is the seeker of the truth in tennis. Much of the information was from "The History of Professional Tennis" by Joe McCauley, and "Bud Collins Total Tennis."

Conclusion: Rod Laver, Bjorn Borg, Bill Tilden, Roger Federer, Pancho Gonzalez and Ken Rosewall are clearly the class of the All Time Field in this study.

Laver’s 188 tournament victory total and three total Grand Slams may be the Mount Olympus of tennis records. Tilden’s total dominance of tennis in the early to mid 1920’s has rarely been matched. Bjorn Borg is clearly the class of the players who played their entire careers in the Open Era but Federer has a chance to surpass him. Still considering that he basically retired from tennis at 25 what Borg accomplished at such a young age may never be surpassed.

Consider this, Tilden didn’t start winning majors until he was 27 and by 27 Borg was retired, already considered an immortal of tennis. In most of the percentage numbers Borg was at the top or close to the top. Borg winning the French and Wimbledon in the same year three years in a row (1978 to 1980) is one of the legendary accomplishments in tennis history and can be rated as high as a Grand Slam, perhaps higher!

You can easily make a case for Borg as the best player in the history of tennis. The two players who deserve considerable respect should be Pancho Gonzalez and Ken Rosewall. It is unbelievable how these two dynamic players have been forgotten when people mention the all time greats. They were a threat in every tennis competition they played in. Both of these two should always be in the arguments when you talk about the all time best. Gonzalez and Rosewall, while their style of play was very different were very much alike in the fact they played for an exceptionally long time at a very high level. Both were top world class players who were a threat in majors into their 40’s. If they did not win the tournament they often were in the semifinals or finals.

Here’s a list of the records of the top players on this list and how often they reached the semifinals, finals or won the title in Big Tournament events.

Rosewall (52 times),
Tilden (35 times),
Laver (32 times),
Connors (31 times),
Gonzalez (29 times),
Lendl (28 times),
Budge (23 times),
Sampras (23 times),
McEnroe (19 times),
Borg (17 times),
Perry (17 times),
Federer (16 times),
Vines (11 times),
Kramer (7 times).

In this case it shows that generally if Rosewall did not win the tournament he always was deep in the Big Tournament and was a threat to win the title.

The records of Tilden, Laver, Connors and Gonzalez are also exceptional in this area. Rosewall for example reached the finals of Wimbledon and the U.S. Open in 1974, the year he turned 40. He lost to Jimmy Connors in both finals but defeated top players like Stan Smith, Roscoe Tanner and John Newcombe in these tournaments. Newcombe was defeated in both the 1974 Wimbledon and the 1974 U.S. Open by Rosewall. Even in this study Rosewall may be vastly underrated. These players are the Super Six of Tennis.

Raymond Lee is a tennis historian who lives in New York. His previous articles for Tennis Week include Numbers Reveal The No. 1 Player Of The Open Era, a statistical study of the top male players of the Open Era, The Best Of The Best, a comparison of the Open Era's top women and The Natural, a profile of Hall of Famer Pancho Gonzalez.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 11:09:17 PM by kban1 »
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CLR James

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2009, 12:45:34 AM »
Quote
Actually our subjective takes must take into account the basic realities of our own subjective positions and those of others. Being a part of our subjective world, we will look at a wooden racquet from a point of view that has the graphite one in the center as normative. Just as for a person belonging to a previous generation like Borg, the graphite racquet must be looked at according to a world view that has the wooden one at its heart. Difficulties in terms of adjustment from one to the other is always relative.
Surely, CLR, you write this in jest?! Playing tennis with a wooden racquet is like playing pingpong with a pen. My college coach's favorite speech was about how "you're lucky to have made that shot with the bad swing"!

No I write in pure ignorance :). kban caught me on that one. I was, however, always intrigued by Borg opting for the wooden racquet for his come back. The question of the racquet however seems to overlook one thing: The person on the other side of the net plays with the same advantages and disadvantages.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 12:56:05 AM by CLR James »
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2009, 01:48:39 AM »
Quote
The question of the racquet however seems to overlook one thing: The person on the other side of the net plays with the same advantages and disadvantages. 


Isnt that what I have been saying all along while some others have been judging the older guys with their old racquets and comparing that with the newer guys playing with new racquets ?
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WicketView

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #112 on: June 19, 2009, 02:08:15 AM »
Quote
Obviously ... and I think what you talk of is possibly a nice way of either confirming or refuting your point as to whether Federer was responsible for keeping his down.

Disagree -- there is little ambiguity here because Safin won 1 and lost 1 against federer. Federer did not obliterate Safin.

Safin's injuries and his lack of motivation / mental focus / competition was the reason he never was able to mount a successful challenge against Federer's reign. Of all the players (other than Nadal), he had the game to be a great, but frittered it away.

I fail to see why it should be argued that federer prevented his greatness -- a bolder misstatement couldnt be made.
I fail to see why this should not be apparent in the test that you suggested.  In fact, if it is not, we would have to say that the test is bad.
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the seedings system does not always recognize players on the rise. For example, in Federer's first W win, he also beat Roddick though the final was against Phillippousis. I recall that he also played Nadal vey early once.


Yes, the seeding system does not recognize players on the rise. Just as it does not recognize players on the decline. Which is precisely why a player on the rise or on the decline should be accorded less gravity than one in his prime.

For example, no one credits Connors as having beaten a great opponent when he defeated a 40 year old Rosewell In his first Wimbledon final. Connors's quality of opposition is judged by oppnents he played when his opponents were in their prime.

Similarly, no one credits Lendl as having beaten a great opponent when he beat a 16 and 17 year old Andre Agassi in successive US Open Semi finals. Rather Lendl's quality of opposition is judged by oppnents he played when his opponents were in their prime.
Your answer relates to the ranking stuff I said. And I think you are saying considering the ranking is important. Here what I was talking about was a young Federer beating an established Roddick ... sort of the equivalent of the  16 year Agassi beating Lendl ... and that ought to count.
Quote
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1) Excluding Nadal does not make sense at all to me. So I think we should include everyone.

nadal was not excluded to deny fed's greatness. Nadal's greatness as a player is already acknowledged. He was excluded only because his record against Fed is well known.

The context of the discussion was "Who other than Nadal has federer played that might be legitimately considered as a great in terms of opposition"
With the level of specification that we have been talking about, I don't think that is enough. The question is where does Nadal's standing against Federer as opposed to a Becker's standing against Lendl?
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2) There should be a comparison with other greats too. For example, if you say Borg/McEnroe was great in the 75-81/79-85 stretch, we should check how their competitors match up against this comparison.

Nobody excluded that.
Borg had Connors, McEnroe, and Vilas to contend with.
Connors had Borg, McEcnroe, Vilas, Lendl to contend with
McEnroe had Borg, Connors, Vilas, Lendl to contend with
lendl had Connors, McEnroe, Wilander, Becker, Edberg to contend with

In each of the above scenarios, the contenders were all in their prime --not rising stars and not fading stars.
Now, for example Lendl for example faced a Connors and McEnroe in their prime only in the early part of his career, Wilander during the middle, and Edberg (who rose somewhat after Becker ... ) towards the end. Add to that the clean division .... Edberg, Becker dominated on grass while Lendl dominated on anything else. Therefore, I suggest there should be a comparison.
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3)It is somewhat useful to also think about rankings at the time of playing. As a competitor to Edberg/Becker say, McEnroe in 1990 was really nobody, and so he should not be thought of as the same McEnroe as the 1981.


Nobody mentions McEnroe as a competitor to Edberg and Becker, even though in the latter stages of his career he was a reasonably potent force and a dangerous competitor.
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kban1

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #113 on: June 19, 2009, 02:52:53 AM »
Quote
I fail to see why this should not be apparent in the test that you suggested.  In fact, if it is not, we would have to say that the test is bad.

You have completely lost me here. I have no clue what you are talking about.

Quote
Your answer relates to the ranking stuff I said. And I think you are saying considering the ranking is important. Here what I was talking about was a young Federer beating an established Roddick ... sort of the equivalent of the  16 year Agassi beating Lendl ... and that ought to count.

I never denied that it ought to count if an Agassi beat a Lendl or some equivalent scenario in Federer's era. Unfortunately Roddick is no Lendl.  In my books, he is a mediocre player and an underachiever. I fail to see the equivalence between the 2 scenarios.

Furthermore ----

Pardon me, a younger Federer ???

Federer was born in 1981. Roddick was born in 1982.


An up and coming Federer against an established Roddick ???

Federer won his first slam in Wimbledon in 2003. Roddick's first slam was US Open 2003.

In federer's first Slam title, the one in which he beat roddick in the semis, federer was seeded #4, Roddick was seeded #5.

Even in the US Open that Roddick won, he was seeded #5, Federer was seeded #2.

Only after he won the US open did he become World no 1, only to surrender the no 1 ranking for good to Federer at the 2004 Australian 4 & 1/2 months down the line.


I am afraid, this line of reasoning is wrong on the basis of facts. More importantly its wrong on the basis of the quality of player Roddick is.

Quote
With the level of specification that we have been talking about, I don't think that is enough. The question is where does Nadal's standing against Federer as opposed to a Becker's standing against Lendl?

I am sorry but you lost me again.

What specification are you talking about ? I really dont follow.

You seem to be making a point in a different contextual plane than my comments earlier.  My comments were made in the context of the fact that Federer really hasnt faced quality opposition other than Nadal.

Where, how, and why this needs to be substantiated with respect to becker's standing vis-a-vis Lendl escapes me because I have obviously missed the context of your comments.

Quote
Now, for example Lendl for example faced a Connors and McEnroe in their prime only in the early part of his career, Wilander during the middle, and Edberg (who rose somewhat after Becker ... ) towards the end. Add to that the clean division .... Edberg, Becker dominated on grass while Lendl dominated on anything else. Therefore, I suggest there should be a comparison.


This is not factually correct.

Lendl was born in 1960, McEnroe in 1959 --they are one year apart and they were very much rivals all through because their careers coincided. 
Wilander, despite being born in 1964, was a competitor of Lendl almost all through his career because Wilander came into prominence a lot earlier --as an 18 year old who won the French unseeded.

lendl faced Edberg and Becker from the middle to the latter part of his career, that I agree.

Connors on the other hand was  quite  abit older than both McEnroe and Lendl (Connors was born in 1952) but even so, because of his longevity (he made the US semis at 39 yrs, won Wimbledon and US opens at 30, made Wimbledon and US Semis at 35 and 36 respectively), he had a longer prime than the traditional tennis player which meant he and Lendl competed into the mid 80's.
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CLR James

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #114 on: June 19, 2009, 10:21:23 PM »
Unlike the statistician, here is a piece by a person who knows a thing or two about tennis. I also wonder why the discussion about Federer being the GOAT started so remarkably early in his career. This article was written in June, 2005, after Fed's 3rd Wimbledon and 5th GS overall. I wonder why nobody has yet started a discussion about Nadal, even though he has 6 titles already?



Swiss magic is truly something to behold

By Nick Bollettieri, The Independent

Roger Federer is virtually indescribable. Whatever we say about him cannot express the jaw-dropping, breathtaking brilliance of his play. He moves like a whisper and executes like a wrecking ball. It is simply impossible to explain how he does what he does.

He is not unbeatable - no one is ever unbeatable - but he's as close it comes, especially on grass. He is a genius, a magician. He is an athlete of such complete mental and physical power and calm combined that he is, I believe, unique in the history of tennis.

In winning a third consecutive Wimbledon title yesterday against Andy Roddick, he joined Bjorn Borg and Pete Sampras as the only men since the 1930s to achieve the feat. I saw both of them play, in their prime. Federer does not yet have the 14 Grand Slam titles of the record holder, Sampras, or the 11 of Borg. And he may not get them. No one knows what tomorrow will bring, when an injury or a personal crisis could change your life and end your career. But in my opinion, shot for shot, Federer is the best player who has ever played the game.

Sampras was a wonderful champion, a great, no question. But he did have weaknesses, including a less than perfect return of serve on the backhand side sometimes. And great though his mobility was, Federer's is better. He makes everything look so easy, almost effortless.

Borg was another true great, but he was a machine. He broke you down mentally. He did not overpower you in the way that Federer does. Federer's shots can be so blistering, so uncannily placed that they leave nothing to say but "How?"

We can talk about details. Federer held seven of his service games to love yesterday. He had not a single double-fault. He hit 49 winners, many of them stunning cross-court forehands from nowhere that he had any right to be, or backhands down that line that left you thinking "Holy mackerel. Awesome. How?"

If one single point exemplified what Federer did yesterday it was the first point of the seventh game in the third set, with Roddick serving. After a 16-shot rally that almost defied belief, Federer hit a running forehand rocket down the line past Roddick. Unbelievable.

But these are just details. Federer is on another level to any other player in the world right now. And when you push him, he just plays better. Not always, of course. No one can do always. But as close as it comes. He hits shots that bamboozle, confuse and defeat. He is consistently beating the very best players that the world has to offer, and beating them comfortably.

It will be no consolation to Roddick today, but it would not have mattered who Federer faced yesterday. He would have won. Roddick did not play badly. Lleyton Hewitt did not play badly in the semi-final. It's just that Federer's talent is not of this planet.

Roddick's only chance at all was to serve massively the whole time and not make a single error. He did OK, and he was coming to the net, but you cannot give Federer more than one volley because he's better than you. Simply better.

Very few people in the history of sport have such a dominance, an aura, in their prime. Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky spring to mind. Federer is that good. He is so calm. His composure just does not slip. He has something within him, something so special that whatever the future brings, we should just be glad we have seen him play.

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CLR James

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #115 on: June 19, 2009, 10:31:11 PM »
However, more than a Sampras or an Agassi and so many others, to me what settles the issue is the endorsement, made in 2007, by Jack Kramer, the father of professional tennis and perhaps the most authoritative source of tennis history alive. From Tilden to Nadal, he has seen them all and played and beat quite a few on rout to becoming himself a GOAT candidate.


Jack the lad
Jack Kramer was men's champion in 1947, but he has been an outcast for much of the past 60 years. Now, at last, he is being honoured. Richard Evans reports
Buzz up!
Digg it
Richard Evans
The Observer,    Sunday 24 June 2007
Article history
Silly how you get the wrong impression of someone just reading the newspapers. When I was at school, I kept reading about 'tennis mogul' Jack Kramer signing up another Wimbledon champion for some exorbitant sum of money for the pro circuit that toured the world under his name.

I envisaged some balding little man in glasses with a fat cigar sitting in the back room of dingy stadiums counting his money. Then, when I became a young reporter, I was sent to the Westbury Hotel in Mayfair to interview Kramer because he had just signed the then British number one, Mike Davies.

I was unprepared for the figure of the man who opened his hotel room door. 'Come in, kid, what'ya want to know?' The friendly, open smile belonged to a rangy athlete of more than six feet who was not only capable of playing with all the players he signed but beating the heck out of them for good measure.

There are those who will tell you that Kramer was as good, if not better, than most of the players of his era. So let's take a look at the list - Pancho Gonzalez, Frank Sedgman, Lew Hoad, Ken Rosewall, Tony Trabert... 'Jack was a tough son of a b***h,' says the other Pancho - Segura - whose double-fisted forehand was considered by Hoad and others to be the most dangerous shot they ever faced. 'Jack had a massive serve and he'd keep on coming at you, volleying like crazy.'

'Actually, they all made me a better player,' says Kramer, now 85. 'I had to become more of an attacker and improve my volley because the competition was so fierce. Winning a couple of tours against those guys was the achievement I'm most proud of as a player. Winning night after night was a huge test, because if you lost you were out of a job.'

That was no exaggeration. We are talking of the late 1940s and 1950s, when Kramer was providing the only money in the game. The Wimbledon champions of the day had to stay with rich families; hope the tournament provided lunch and be grateful for the Mappin & Webb voucher they received for winning. A semi-finalist? 'Thank you for coming. See you next year.' Kramer was never going to settle for the voucher. After leaving the US Navy at the end of the war, this son of a Las Vegas railroad worker had his plan mapped out. Win Wimbledon in 1946 and then join Bobby Riggs, Don Budge and Fred Perry on the professional tour.

'But it didn't work out,' Kramer remembers. 'I got held up a year because Jaroslav Drobny beat me in the quarters. Then in '47 I was lucky enough to get Tom Brown in the final and he was a player who could never beat me.' Not many could. When Riggs, the 1939 Wimbledon singles, doubles and mixed champion, decided to go off and live with some rich lady friend, Kramer, with his natural eye for business, took over the tour and soon made himself number-one enemy in Australia by pinching all their great players as soon as they won a grand-slam title. Sedgman, Hoad and Rosewall were just the beginning. Ashley Cooper, Rod Laver and Mal Anderson followed - all of them unable to refuse the kind of money Kramer was offering. It ranged from fifty to a hundred thousand dollars for about six months a year on the road - real riches in those days.

Driving from city to city for one-night stands across America, taking three days to fly to South Africa, playing on canvas stretched over basketball courts - it was not an easy or glamorous life for fine athletes who were banned from Wimbledon and the other great citadels of the amateur game. They yearned for 'open' tennis, but it did not arrive until 1968.

By then Kramer had resigned from his position in charge of the tour because his great friend from the other side of the game - Philippe Chatrier, president of the French federation - told him he had become so controversial that he was a stumbling block to any hope of rapprochement between the amateur and professional games.

When it happened, thanks to Wimbledon throwing open its doors, Kramer quickly formed an alliance with Chatrier and it was at the Frenchman's apartment near the Arc de Triomphe in Paris that he unveiled his plan for a grand prix of tennis - a series of worldwide tournaments linked by a points system.

But Kramer, as an ill-suited member of the establishment, was an uneasy fit and soon the players came calling. Arthur Ashe, Cliff Drysdale, John Newcombe, Mark Cox and a few others formed the Association of Tennis Professionals in 1972 and they knew that only a man of Kramer's prestige would suffice as their leader. So Kramer was in charge as CEO when the definitive battle lines between the new professional order and the old amateur establishment were drawn in 1973.

The fact that Nikki Pilic of Yugoslavia had been banned from playing in the Davis Cup by his national federation was merely the excuse for a showdown. After midnight meetings back at the Westbury, Kramer called for a vote of his board and the outcome was to boycott Wimbledon. The fact that 90 players did so stunned the sporting world and made Kramer a pariah in the parochial British press.

Making stars such as Ashe, Newcombe and little Ken Rosewall villains of the piece was too a hard a sell, so the media settled for Kramer. Such was the furore that his job as a summariser for BBC television at Wimbledon alongside Dan Maskell, with whom he had forged a hugely popular partnership, became untenable.

'That was a big disappointment to me,' Kramer admits. 'But they needed a scapegoat and it goes with the territory.' For years he was persona non grata at Wimbledon, but time moves on and it is wholly appropriate that the All England Club chairman Tim Phillips and his committee have seen fit to honour Kramer, 60 years after he began a personal odyssey that kept pro tennis alive in the dark days of shamateurism - federations were actually paying players not to turn pro - and recognise his unrivalled contribution to the game he played with such panache.

Although a few broken bones have limited his mobility in recent years, he has been following the game from the comfort of his home in Los Angeles and, as someone who is better placed than most to analyse players through the ages, he is ready to anoint Roger Federer as the best he has seen.

'I thought Ellsworth Vines and Don Budge were pretty good,' he says. 'And Gonzalez and Hoad could play a bit, too, but I have never seen anyone play the game better than Federer. He serves well and has a great half-volley. I've never known anyone who can do as many things on a court as he can.' Aware of the game's past and being the kind of person he is, Federer will no doubt be honoured to shake Kramer's hand when they meet in the Royal Box. Both members of the same club; champions of similar stature, reaching across 60 years of history.
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LosingNow

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #116 on: June 19, 2009, 10:50:38 PM »
Quote
Although a few broken bones have limited his mobility in recent years, he has been following the game from the comfort of his home in Los Angeles and, as someone who is better placed than most to analyse players through the ages, he is ready to anoint Roger Federer as the best he has seen.
..and this was 2 years ago. WOW!!!!

Let me dig up NY Times' profile of Federer that Mock/Pip had posted a couple of years ago in the DG..
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 10:56:00 PM by winningnow »
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LosingNow

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #117 on: June 19, 2009, 10:59:03 PM »
Actually this was 3 years ago..

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php/topic,5290.0.html

Simply worth re-posting...

--
The beauty of Roger Federer

He's the best tennis player in the world. And apart from being supremely efficient at beating opponents - right now he's cruising towards the US Open final - he is also pure poetry in motion. So what exactly is it that makes the Swiss master such a joy to watch? David Foster Wallace believes it's a sublime blend of the technical and the metaphysical

Thursday September 7, 2006
The Guardian

Almost anyone who loves tennis and follows the men's tour on television has, over the past few years, had what might be termed Federer moments. These are times, as you watch the young Swiss play, when the jaw drops and eyes protrude and sounds are made that bring spouses in from other rooms to see if you're OK.

The moments are more intense if you've played enough tennis to understand the impossibility of what you just saw him do. We've all got our examples. Here is one. It's the finals of the 2005 US Open, Federer serving to Andre Agassi early in the fourth set. There's a medium-long exchange of groundstrokes, one with the distinctive butterfly shape of today's power-baseline game, Federer and Agassi yanking each other from side to side, each trying to set up the baseline winner ... until suddenly Agassi hits a hard, heavy cross-court backhand that pulls Federer way out wide to his ad (left) side, and Federer gets to it but slices the stretch backhand short, a couple feet past the service line, which, of course, is the sort of thing Agassi dines out on, and as Federer is scrambling to reverse and get back to centre, Agassi is moving in to take the short ball on the rise, and he smacks it hard right back into the same ad corner, trying to wrong-foot Federer, which in fact he does - Federer's still near the corner but running toward the centreline, and the ball's heading to a point behind him now, where he just was, and there's no time to turn his body around ... and what Federer now does is somehow instantly reverse thrust and sort of skip backward three or four steps, impossibly fast, to hit a forehand out of his backhand corner, all his weight moving backward, and the forehand is a topspin screamer down the line past Agassi, who lunges for it but the ball's past him, and it flies straight down the sideline and lands exactly in the deuce corner of Agassi's side, a winner - Federer's still dancing backward as it lands. And there's that familiar little second of shocked silence from the New York crowd before it erupts, and John McEnroe on TV says (mostly to himself, it sounds like), "How do you hit a winner from that position?" And he's right. It was impossible. It was like something out of The Matrix. I don't know what sounds were involved, but my spouse says she hurried in and there was popcorn all over the couch and I was down on one knee and my eyeballs looked like novelty-shop eyeballs.

Anyway, that's one example of a Federer moment, and that was merely on TV - and the truth is that TV tennis is to live tennis pretty much as video porn is to the felt reality of love.

Journalistically speaking, there is no hot news to offer you about Roger Federer. He is, at 25, the best tennis player alive. Maybe the best ever. Bios and profiles abound. It's all just a Google search away. This present article is more about a spectator's experience of Federer, and its context.

Beauty is not the goal of competitive sports, but high-level sports are a prime venue for the expression of human beauty. The relation is roughly that of courage to war. The human beauty we're talking about here is beauty of a particular type; it might be called kinetic beauty. Its power and appeal are universal. It has nothing to do with sex or cultural norms. What it seems to have to do with, really, is human beings' reconciliation with the fact of having a body. Of course, in men's sport no one ever talks about beauty or grace or the body. Men may profess their "love" of sport, but that love must always be cast and enacted in the symbology of war: elimination v advance, hierarchy of rank and standing, obsessive statistics, technical analysis, tribal and/or nationalist fervour, uniforms, mass noise, banners, chest-thumping, face-painting, etc. For reasons that are not well understood, war's codes are safer for most of us than love's. You too may find them so, in which case Spain's mesomorphic and totally martial Rafael Nadal is the man's man for you.

A top athlete's beauty is next to impossible to describe directly. Or to evoke. Federer's forehand is a great liquid whip, his backhand a one-hander that he can drive flat, load with topspin, or slice - the slice with such snap that the ball turns shapes in the air and skids on the grass to maybe ankle height. His serve has world-class pace and a degree of placement and variety no one else comes close to; the service motion is lithe and uneccentric, distinctive (on TV) only in a certain eel-like all-body snap at the moment of impact. His anticipation and court sense are otherworldly, and his footwork is the best in the game - as a child, he was also a soccer prodigy. All this is true, and yet none of it really explains anything or evokes the experience of watching this man play. Of witnessing, firsthand, the beauty and genius of his game. You have to come at the aesthetic stuff obliquely, to talk around it, or - as Aquinas did with his own ineffable subject - to try to define it in terms of what it is not.

One thing it is not is televisable. At least not entirely. Television's slow-mo replays, its close-ups and graphics, all so privilege viewers that we're not even aware of how much is lost in broadcast. And a large part of what's lost is the sheer physicality of top tennis, a sense of the speeds at which the ball is moving and the players are reacting. Real tennis, after all, is three-dimensional, but a TV screen's image is only 2D. The dimension that's lost (or rather distorted) is the real court's length, the 78 feet between baselines; and the speed with which the ball traverses this length is a shot's pace, which on TV is obscured, and in person is fearsome to behold. That may sound abstract or overblown, in which case by all means go in person to some professional tournament - especially to the outer courts in early rounds, where you can sit 20 feet from the sideline - and sample the difference for yourself. If you've watched tennis only on television, you simply have no idea how hard these pros are hitting the ball, how fast the ball is moving, how little time the players have to get to it, and how quickly they're able to move and rotate and strike and recover. And none are faster, or more deceptively effortless about it, than Federer.

Interestingly, what is less obscured in TV coverage is Federer's intelligence, since this intelligence often manifests as angle. Federer is able to see, or create, gaps and angles for winners that no one else can envision, and television's perspective is perfect for viewing and reviewing these Federer moments. What's harder to appreciate on TV is that these spectacular-looking angles and winners are not coming from nowhere - they're often set up several shots ahead, and depend as much on Federer's manipulation of opponents' positions as they do on the pace or placement of the coup de grâce. And understanding how and why Federer is able to move other world-class athletes around this way requires, in turn, a better technical understanding of the modern power-baseline game than TV - again - is set up to provide.

There are three kinds of valid explanation for Federer's ascendancy. One kind involves mystery and metaphysics and is, I think, closest to the real truth. The others are more technical.

The metaphysical explanation is that Roger Federer is one of those rare, preternatural athletes who appear to be exempt, at least in part, from certain physical laws. Good analogues here include Michael Jordan, who could not only jump inhumanly high but actually hang there a beat or two longer than gravity allows, and Muhammad Ali, who really could "float" across the canvas and land two or three jabs in the clock-time required for one. Federer is of this type - a type that one could call genius or mutant or avatar. He is never hurried or off-balance. The approaching ball hangs, for him, a split-second longer than it ought to. His movements are lithe rather than athletic. Like Ali, Jordan and Maradona, he seems both less and more substantial than the men he faces. He looks like what he may well (I think) be: a creature whose body is both flesh and, somehow, light.

This thing about the ball cooperatively hanging there, slowing down, as if susceptible to the Swiss's will - there's real metaphysical truth here. And in the following anecdote. After the Wimbledon semi-final in which Federer destroyed Jonas Björkman - not just beat him, destroyed him - and just before a requisite post-match news conference, Federer and Bjorkman are chatting and joking around, and Bjorkman asks him just how unnaturally big the ball was looking to him out there, and Federer confirms that it was "like a bowling ball or basketball".

He means it just as a bantery, modest way to make Bjorkman feel better; but he's also revealing something about what tennis is like for him. Imagine that you're a person with preternaturally good reflexes and coordination and speed, and that you're playing high-level tennis. Your experience, in play, will not be that you possess phenomenal reflexes and speed; rather, it will seem to you that the tennis ball is quite large and slow-moving, and that you always have plenty of time to hit it. That is, you won't experience anything like the (empirically real) quickness and skill that the live audience, watching tennis balls move so fast they hiss and blur, will attribute to you.

Velocity is just one part of it. Now we're getting technical. Tennis is often called a "game of inches", but the cliche is mostly referring to where a shot lands. In terms of a player's hitting an incoming ball, tennis is actually more a game of micrometres: vanishingly tiny changes around the moment of impact will have large effects on how and where the ball travels.

By way of illustration, let's slow things way down. Imagine that you, a tennis player, are standing just behind your deuce (right) corner's baseline. A ball is served to your forehand. You pivot (or rotate) so that your side is to the ball's incoming path and start to take your racket back for the forehand return. Keep visualising up to where you're about halfway into the stroke's forward motion; the incoming ball is now just off your front hip, maybe six inches from point of impact. Consider some of the variables involved here. On the vertical plane, angling your racket face just a couple degrees forward or back will create topspin or slice, respectively; keeping it perpendicular will produce a flat, spinless drive. Horizontally, adjusting the racket face ever so slightly to the left or right, and hitting the ball maybe a millisecond early or late, will result in a cross-court, versus down-the-line, return. Further slight changes in the curves of your groundstroke's motion and follow-through will help determine how high your return passes over the net, which, together with the speed at which you're swinging (along with certain characteristics of the spin you impart), will affect how deep or shallow in the opponent's court your return lands, how high it bounces, etc. These are just the broadest distinctions, of course - like, there's heavy topspin v light topspin, or sharply cross-court v only slightly cross-court, etc. There are also the issues of how close you're allowing the ball to get to your body, what grip you're using, the extent to which your knees are bent and/or weight's moving forward, and whether you're able simultaneously to watch the ball and to see what your opponent's doing after he serves. These all matter, too.

Plus there's the fact that you're not putting a static object into motion here but rather reversing the flight and (to a varying extent) spin of a projectile coming toward you - coming, in the case of pro tennis, at speeds that make conscious thought impossible. Mario Ancic's first serve, for instance, often comes in around 130mph. Since it's 78 feet from Ancic's baseline to yours, that means it takes 0.41 seconds for his serve to reach you. This is less than the time it takes to blink quickly, twice. The upshot is that pro tennis involves intervals of time too brief for deliberate action. Temporally, we're more in the operative range of reflexes, purely physical reactions that bypass conscious thought.

Successfully returning a hard-served tennis ball requires what's sometimes called "the kinesthetic sense", meaning the ability to control the body and its artificial extensions through complex and very quick systems of tasks. English has a whole cloud of terms for various parts of this ability: feel, touch, form, proprioception, coordination, hand-eye coordination, kinesthesia, grace, control, reflexes, and so on. For promising junior players, refining the kinesthetic sense is the main goal of the extreme daily practice regimens we often hear about. The training here is both muscular and neurological. Hitting thousands of strokes, day after day, develops the ability to do by "feel" what cannot be done by regular conscious thought.

It was only weeks after quitting school that Federer, at 16, won Junior Wimbledon. Obviously, this is something that not every junior who devotes himself to tennis can do. Just as obviously, then, there is more than time and training involved - there is also sheer talent, and degrees of it. Extraordinary kinesthetic ability must be present (and measurable) in a kid just to make the years of practice and training worthwhile. But from there, over time, the cream starts to rise and separate. So one type of technical explanation for Federer's dominion is that he's just a bit more kinesthetically talented than the other male pros. Only a little bit, since everyone in the top 100 is himself kinesthetically gifted - but then, tennis is a game of inches.

This answer is plausible but incomplete. It would probably not have been incomplete in 1980. In 2006, though, it's fair to ask why this kind of talent still matters so much. Kinesthetic virtuoso or no, Roger Federer is now dominating the largest, strongest, fittest, best-trained and -coached field of male pros that has ever existed, with everyone using a kind of nuclear racket that's said to have made the finer calibrations of kinesthetic sense irrelevant, like trying to whistle Mozart during a Metallica concert.

It's 2-1 to Nadal in the second set of the Wimbledon final, and he's serving. Federer won the first set at love but then flagged a bit, as he sometimes does, and is quickly down a break. Now, on Nadal's advantage, there's a 16-stroke point. Nadal is serving a lot faster than he did in Paris, and this one's down the centre. Federer floats a soft forehand high over the net. The Spaniard now hits a characteristically heavy topspin forehand deep to Federer's backhand; Federer comes back with an even heavier topspin backhand, almost a clay-court shot. It's unexpected and backs Nadal up, slightly, and his response is a low hard short ball that lands just past the service line's T on Federer's forehand side.

Against most other opponents, Federer could simply end the point on a ball like this, but one reason Nadal gives him trouble is that he's faster than the others, can get to stuff they can't; and so Federer here just hits a flat, medium-hard cross-court forehand, going not for a winner but for a low, shallowly angled ball that forces Nadal up and out to the deuce side, his backhand. Nadal, on the run, backhands it hard down the line to Federer's backhand; Federer slices it right back down the same line, slow and floaty with backspin, making Nadal come back to the same spot. Nadal slices the ball right back - three shots now all down the same line - and Federer slices the ball back to the same spot yet again, this one even slower and floatier, and Nadal gets planted and hits a big two-hander back down the same line - it's like Nadal's camped out now on his deuce side; he's no longer moving all the way back to the baseline's centre between shots; Federer's hypnotised him a little. Federer now hits a very hard, deep topspin backhand, the kind that hisses, to a point just slightly on the ad side of Nadal's baseline, which Nadal gets to and forehands cross-court; and Federer responds with an even harder, heavier cross-court backhand, baseline-deep and moving so fast that Nadal has to hit the forehand off his back foot and then scramble to get back to centre as the shot lands maybe two feet short on Federer's backhand side again. Federer steps to this ball and now hits a totally different cross-court backhand, this one much shorter and sharper-angled, an angle no one would anticipate, and so heavy and blurred with topspin that it lands shallow and just inside the sideline and takes off hard after the bounce, and Nadal can't move in to cut it off and can't get to it laterally along the baseline, because of all the angle and topspin - end of point. It's a spectacular winner, a Federer moment; but watching it live, you can see that it's also a winner that Federer started setting up four or even five shots earlier. Everything after that first down-the-line slice was designed by the Swiss to manoeuvre Nadal and lull him and then disrupt his rhythm and balance and open up that last, unimaginable angle - an angle that would have been impossible without extreme topspin.

Extreme topspin is the hallmark of today's power-baseline game. Carbon-based composite rackets are lighter than wood, and this allows modern rackets to be a couple of ounces lighter and at least an inch wider across the face than the vintage Kramer and Maxply. It's the width that's vital. A wider face means there's more total string area, which means the sweet spot's bigger. With a composite racket, you don't have to meet the ball in the precise geometric centre of the strings to generate good pace. Nor must you be spot-on to generate topspin, a spin that requires a tilted face and upwardly curved stroke, brushing over the ball rather than hitting flat through it. Composites' lighter, wider heads and more generous centres let players swing faster and put way more topspin on the ball and, in turn, the more topspin you put on the ball, the harder you can hit it, because there's more margin for error. Topspin causes the ball to pass high over the net, describe a sharp arc, and come down fast into the opponent's court (instead of maybe soaring out).

So the basic formula here is that composite rackets enable topspin, which in turn enables groundstrokes vastly faster and harder than 20 years ago. The generic power-baseline game is not boring - certainly not compared with the two-second points of old-time serve-and-volley or the moon-ball tedium of classic baseline attrition. But it is somewhat static and limited; it is not, as pundits have publicly feared for years, the evolutionary endpoint of tennis. The player who's shown this to be true is Roger Federer. And he's shown it from within the modern game.

This within is what's important here; this is what a purely neural account leaves out. And it is why sexy attributions such as touch and subtlety must not be misunderstood. With Federer, it's not either/or. Federer is a first-rate, kick-ass power-baseliner. It's just that that's not all he is. There's also his intelligence, his occult anticipation, his court sense, his ability to read and manipulate opponents, to mix spins and speeds, to misdirect and disguise, to use tactical foresight and peripheral vision and kinesthetic range instead of just rote pace - all this has exposed the limits, and possibilities, of men's tennis as it is now played. Federer is showing that the speed and strength of today's pro game are merely its skeleton, not its flesh. He has, figuratively and literally, re-embodied men's tennis, and for the first time in years the game's future is unpredictable.

---

And our own PieterSan's post is as apt and perceptive  :

"He is undoubtedly the most efficient mover in the game. Nadal may be lightning quick, but the economy of Roger's footwork is mindblowing. It looks like a deadly dance. The other aspect that is overlooked is his return of serve which is probably the best in the game right now. Because of his reach he is hard to ace, and he can hit winners off both wings.
"

 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
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LosingNow

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #118 on: June 19, 2009, 11:01:46 PM »
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dextrous

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Re: The Ivan Lendl Interview
« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2009, 11:17:24 PM »
Nadal drops out of Wimbledon...add another freebie to Federer's name
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