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[toney]

-- Or One in which a person takes a broadside against a person or a region by refering to ...their political beliefs as "communism" or "socialism", their color likings as  "red",

KBan, just curious. Do you live in the US? If so, are you OK with a person being a Communist? The reason why I asked is that, I think, in INS interviews, they ask you if you are a communist. I am sure, most people who had a communist background in India will reply in the negative, armed with their best poker face.

food preference "fermented rice",

Wouldnt that be for the Japanese?

[kban1]

toney:

yes I live in the US. No, I've never had any political leanings towards communism although some in the DG might have.

Neither was I actively involved in politics in India at any level -- supporting either Congress, BJP, or CPI / CPIM, so I did not have to suppress anything on my visa application.

My views about communism and capitalism are pretty simple --they are great ideas in theory without practical ways of implementation in real life  -implementation that stays true to the stated goals.

And I would not take any offense at anyone calling me a communist or a capitalist other than to say they are untrue.  


On a separate note, yes true for some japanese food, but also true for some south Indian dishes (which I love by the way). Please realize that example was a hypothetical one used to drive home a point, not an actual opinion of mine.

[toney]

kban, I agree. Communism is not practical. It is possible in a world with perfect human beings. The evidence is there for all to see. I hope China doesnt end up as an exception, so far i have nothing to worry.
Thanks for the clarification, though.

[pieterSAN]

People's Republic of China has undergone reforms to a more free-market style syste, so it is incorrect to call it communist. (Yes, I know that all economies are mixed to a degree).

[toney]

People's Republic of China has undergone reforms to a more free-market style syste, so it is incorrect to call it communist. (Yes, I know that all economies are mixed to a degree).

Jiet, I agree. But my main grouse with communism is not the ideology as such. Communism has been implemented and continued in almost every country, not through people power but through oppressive regimes. This includes communist USSR, China, N Korea, Cuba... I know, they arent really pure forms of anything and the ruling class is very corrupt. But just the presence of different classes of people and lack of voice for the majority show that communism has failed in these places.
Kerala and then Bengal are the only places in the world where communists have come to power through elections. In fact, Polish school students study about Kerala, says a Polish origin realtor I once met.

[dextrous]

With all due respect, every dictatorship is called communist now. Marx's original ideology and theoretical work had very little to do with what these governments followed. Indeed, I very much doubt most people (inc. most of CPM) have read Marx, leave alone understand them--besides, a very hollow idea that it involves overthrowing the rich. That's really not what theoretical marxism is about.

[pieterSAN]

toney:

Agreed. I used to get into these debates with a socialist friend who was studying politics. I am an economist. This guy would drive me nuts talking about the evils of capitalism and how everyone and how all rich people/corporations are theiving b***ards.

dextrous:

wholeheartedly agree.

[bouncer]

People's Republic of China has undergone reforms to a more free-market style syste, so it is incorrect to call it communist. (Yes, I know that all economies are mixed to a degree).

Jiet, I agree. But my main grouse with communism is not the ideology as such. Communism has been implemented and continued in almost every country, not through people power but through oppressive regimes. This includes communist USSR, China, N Korea, Cuba... I know, they arent really pure forms of anything and the ruling class is very corrupt.

In all cases, they also replaced very oppressive regimes, and if you read about Cuban revolution, the coming to power of Castro was very much backed by the masses

[toney]

People's Republic of China has undergone reforms to a more free-market style syste, so it is incorrect to call it communist. (Yes, I know that all economies are mixed to a degree).

Jiet, I agree. But my main grouse with communism is not the ideology as such. Communism has been implemented and continued in almost every country, not through people power but through oppressive regimes. This includes communist USSR, China, N Korea, Cuba... I know, they arent really pure forms of anything and the ruling class is very corrupt.

In all cases, they also replaced very oppressive regimes, and if you read about Cuban revolution, the coming to power of Castro was very much backed by the masses

So did he (anyone) continue with the communist rule in Cuba by being backed by the masses or did he have to use his muscle power for that?

[dextrous]

I'm just wondering if anyone has read about Cuban history or just believe America that Castro is the devil?

[arjun]

I'm just wondering if anyone has read about Cuban history or just believe America that Castro is the devil?

lol!

[toney]

I'm just wondering if anyone has read about Cuban history or just believe America that Castro is the devil?

lol!

Dextrous, since I am the only one who posted unfavourably about Castro, I understand that this is directed to me. While I dont claim to have read the history of every so called communist in the world, I come from a place which boasts of a few well known intellectuals (in the field, so to speak) like EMS. A few years in school and college in Kerala will unknowingly educate you about the basics of this ideology. There is no fear of hearing the wrong stuff alone. Communism is still popular in Kerala and there are enough intellectuals to give their version of what the Truth is.
Also, my opinion on Castro doesnt have to be based on American paranoia. Having lived in the US for close to 5 years, I have some idea of what to take with a pinch of salt.
Just to prove a point about the practicality of communism, it isnt necessary to glorify dictators who dont care two hoots about the people they have been oppressing.

Perhaps, answering my question in the previous post might enlighten lesser souls like me about the heaven that Cuba is. Damn, I should have tried for a visa to Cuba.

[feverpitch]

I'm just wondering if anyone has read about Cuban history or just believe America that Castro is the devil?

lol!

Dextrous, since I am the only one who posted unfavourably about Castro, I understand that this is directed to me. While I dont claim to have read the history of every so called communist in the world, I come from a place which boasts of a few well known intellectuals (in the field, so to speak) like EMS. A few years in school and college in Kerala will unknowingly educate you about the basics of this ideology. There is no fear of hearing the wrong stuff alone. Communism is still popular in Kerala and there are enough intellectuals to give their version of what the Truth is.
Also, my opinion on Castro doesnt have to be based on American paranoia. Having lived in the US for close to 5 years, I have some idea of what to take with a pinch of salt.
Just to prove a point about the practicality of communism, it isnt necessary to glorify dictators who dont care two hoots about the people they have been oppressing.

Perhaps, answering my question in the previous post might enlighten lesser souls like me about the heaven that Cuba is. Damn, I should have tried for a visa to Cuba.

Lemme try, toney,

Admitting that no country is perfect, what is your opinion about the widely accepted fact that Cuba has one of the best medicare and public education systems in the world? And that given that it started off post-revolution as a small, underdeveloped nation with its particular historical and cultural baggage, within the domain of a great bully power, which considers Latin America as its doormat as a result of 'The Monroe Doctrine'... and not only brow beats all countries to maintain an economic embargo on Cuba, but also actively encourages violent counter revolution there?

[tombaan]

couple of things here
why do people ferry across to florida
so castro is the perfect ruler who never retires or is elected with 100% vote like bali of yore? maybe we could have onam celebrations for castro?

[k-slice]

ok guys,
i lived in cuba for close to 7 months of my life on a project i was doing. fidel castro is the devil in many ways. you have cops all over, you cant really do what you want unless you have diplomatic staus etc etc. but  one does have to admit that he is responsible for cubans boasting of a 70 odd percent education rate and i dont mean kerala style where all you need to do is sign your name to qualify as educated. also the roads are nice, the cities look clean, there are few infrastructural problems. then again almost everybody wears stuff made in russia and the cops suck. they do have damn good gaanja though!!

[bouncer]

couple of things here
why do people ferry across to florida
so castro is the perfect ruler who never retires or is elected with 100% vote like bali of yore? maybe we could have onam celebrations for castro?

People come to this country from all corners of the globe mainly for economic reasons. It is just not believeable that only the Cubans are fleeing dictatorship, but the others are coming here for a more properous life....

Did we come here to flee Indian dictatorship? Or the Mexicans are trying to escape Vincente's oppression?

[tombaan]

very sound logic bouncer...so did you ferry across the boat in choppy seas with risk of death at every turn??

[bouncer]

very sound logic bouncer...so did you ferry across the boat in choppy seas with risk of death at every turn??

I did not. The only reason for that was that the level of economic desperation was not comparable.

You of course avoided the Mexicans. What dictatorship have they been escaping when they are being packed like sardines in box-trucks at 130F?  And how many of them died in the Arizona desert?

You know the answer my friend. The reason is mainly economic...

[toney]

Feverpitch,
I heard about the education and medical advancement that Cuba has made too. And just for the benefit of others, I heard this on TV in America. So, I was a little surprised at the admission.
Now, lets give Castro the benefit of doubt and say that the country has the best health care and education systems (no sarcasm intended). Why is it that Castro still has to maintain an oppressive regime to have full control of the country?
Forget what Cubans did over the rough seas to come to USA. Why do lots of Cubans try for assylum to the US and Europe? What about all the people who flee from China? All of it is not economic reason.
Cuba might be heaven compared to CHina but Cuba is far far from what the people there deserve.

Just for everybody's info, if you read my posts starting from my question to kban, it will seem obvious that I never said communism was the evil. I just said that every place in the world which was communist had oppressive regimes which gave no freedom to the people, compared to even the most shambolic of democracies. Everyone of those countries had classe in the societ, a strict no-no in Communist dreamland. So my conclusion was that communism isnt a practical ideology.

PS: k-slice, you are the only one who has got me interested in visiting Cuba at least once. And then, maybe Hemingway.

[dhruvdeepak]

my contribution will be rather small and probably insignificant to this discussion, but i have just one observation:

very often, in the communist vs the democracy, the difference that tends to surface is that of human rights. while a communist nation may have the best roads or the best medicare, this is often because of a lack of an established bureaucracy. and this means all the avenues to be crossed which we would associate with the democracy, are by-passed. what the authorities thnk is right and is required will be carried out very quickly, very efficiently, and with or without the approval of its people. so while on the good side you get quick action and this rosy outlook, on the other side freedoms of the people are sacrificed because they do not have a say.

you get swift action in this respect - with appropriation of funding for example for infrastructure - but at what cost? there is a distinct lack of legislature and feedback through which the common man can express his opinions. so while for example in India you have the democracy which is pathetically slow in mobilizing, where any governmental action takes forever etc, you have the fundamental values of democracy protected because everything has to go through the appropriate processes.

so the question comes down to what one values more: the principle of protecting core, essential (and often taken for granted) rights of the human being VS this 'efficient' way of governing where these values of freedom are often sacrificed.

[toney]

very well put, Dhruv. There is a small problem. In your last paragraph, you said about what one values more. People in commnist countries can only dream of the other possibility but dont have the power to make the choice.

And there is a very good example of infrastructure in communist countries. Shanghai is among the most beautiful modern cities in the world.

[tombaan]

So bouncer- i agree economic is one of the reasons but if cuba is so good then people should be running to it and not from it...
unless mahabali was reborn as castro i see no reason he should be power all this time......communist regimes are oppresive where disent or a different point of view is not tolerated...the chinese are live example for it and irongate russia another....communism always has resulted in totalitarian dictorship with people not having a say who should be there ruler

[feverpitch]

I will slowly try answering most of the points raised here, not out of love for Castro or any other "Great Helmsman", but because I can see here either a distinct lack of info or avoidance of the same by certain DGians to forward their arguments. To start with, I'd propose that ALL the diff "communist" countries have different histories; so lumping them all together would be as silly as saying America is a peaceful nation because Canada doesn't go to war with every other nation for oil!

Now, as with Cuba, from what i gather, bureaucracy is MORE not LESS. This is suggested as much by my own experience living in W. Bengal [and reports from other such comparable Soviet style countries]; as by films made by Cubans in Cuba practically all of which make fun and lampoon their country/revolution/bureaucracy [which is my special interest, and I can vouch for the fact that they can make better films than not just us and the americans; but also better than many Europeans who claim to own exclusive bragging rights about their superior kultur]*; as by all manner of reports that one can come by. So Dhruv, you got it wrong there for sure.

In fact, from a systemic standpoint, a command economy is supposed to suffer more over time from a electoral democracy, in which, at least on paper, there should be multiple channels for information filtering both up and down the heirarchy.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
*Someday, those of you in the US, might try watching a few films by Tomas Gutierrez Alea, esp the one called "Memoria del subdesarollo [Memories of Underdevelopment]", and/or whatever you find. IMHO, its the greatest achievement in filmmaking in the history of cinema!

[bouncer]

So bouncer- i agree economic is one of the reasons but if cuba is so good then people should be running to it and not from it...

Good that at least we agree on something. Where did I say Cuba was "so good?"  All I was trying to say that if Mexicans risk their lives to come here, American media says that they are coming for economic opportunity. If Cubans come, then that is fleeing oppression.
It is the official line. American media parrots that mindlessly. We should question that assumption. That's all.

[bouncer]

very often, in the communist vs the democracy, the difference that tends to surface is that of human rights. while a communist nation may have the best roads or the best medicare, this is often because of a lack of an established bureaucracy. and this means all the avenues to be crossed which we would associate with the democracy, are by-passed. what the authorities thnk is right and is required will be carried out very quickly, .

This is not right.  The communist countries are known for their bloated bureaucracy.

[feverpitch]

Feverpitch,
I heard about the education and medical advancement that Cuba has made too. And just for the benefit of others, I heard this on TV in America. So, I was a little surprised at the admission.
Now, lets give Castro the benefit of doubt and say that the country has the best health care and education systems (no sarcasm intended). Why is it that Castro still has to maintain an oppressive regime to have full control of the country?
Forget what Cubans did over the rough seas to come to USA. Why do lots of Cubans try for assylum to the US and Europe? What about all the people who flee from China? All of it is not economic reason.
Cuba might be heaven compared to CHina but Cuba is far far from what the people there deserve.

Just for everybody's info, if you read my posts starting from my question to kban, it will seem obvious that I never said communism was the evil. I just said that every place in the world which was communist had oppressive regimes which gave no freedom to the people, compared to even the most shambolic of democracies. Everyone of those countries had classe in the societ, a strict no-no in Communist dreamland. So my conclusion was that communism isnt a practical ideology.

PS: k-slice, you are the only one who has got me interested in visiting Cuba at least once. And then, maybe Hemingway.

How many of you know even cursorily the history of Cuba?

Did you know for eg., that after the revolution, Castro and Che were looking up to the US first in order to get help to build up their country? And that the US refused, because the people supported the band of merry adventurers, but the US was afraid of people power and that Batista was their client and had lots of economic interests still tied to Cuba? That 1 year after the revolution, after getting rejected by the US of any support whatsoever, they turned to USSR, got gleeful help, and turned "communist"?

That ever since, the US has a price on Castro's head, as on Che's, whom they got ultimately in Bolivia [so Saddam is actually not the first head of state to have a yankee fatwa against him]. That the US, as a stated policy, has actively participated in, funded, precipitated several attempts at overthrowing the govt in Cuba from from Bay of Pigs to the bombing down of the Cubana Airlines in '76, orchestrated by the CIA then led by GHW Bush [The Eldest]; threatened it with nuclear annihilation, economic deprivation and arm twisting, radio and TV jamming etc... the list is endless...

It speaks highly of the fortitude of the people of Cuba who've chosen to stay back [unlike those of us with our particular type of slavish mentality], that despite the constant sense of paranoia [ref: k-slice's posts about police in Cuba] that they have to suffer from each time a neighbouring banana republic decides to chart an independent path, and is immediately brought to books by the arrogant behemoth that is the US [recent examples being Haiti, Nicaragua and Panama] -- that they still manage to have more self-belief and national-pride than us -- to be able to laugh at themselves through their films, literature, songs... unlike us, who on the one hand suffer from a paranoiac sense of spurious national pride and on the other hand keep totally uptight about it!

[feverpitch]

add to the list of recent US attempts at applying
The Monroe Doctrine: Venezuella.
Result : Failure!

[toney]

Feverpitch,
...

How many of you know even cursorily the history of Cuba?

Dis you know for eg, that after the revolution, Castro and Che were looking up to the US first in order to get help to build up their country? And that the US refused, because the people supported the band of merry adventurers, but the US was afraid of people power and that Batista was their client and had lots of economic interests still tied to Cuba? That 1 year after the revolution, after getting rejected by the US of any support whatsoever, they turned to USSR, got gleeful help, and turned 'communist'?

That ever since, the US has a price on Castro's head, as on Che's, whom they got ultimately in Bolivia [so Saddam is actually not the first head of state to have a yankee fatwa against him]. That the US, as a stated policy, has actively participated in, funded, precipitated several attempts at overthrowing the govt in Cuba from from Bay of Pigs to the bombing down of the Cubana Airlines in '76, orchestrated by the CIA then led by GHW Bush, threatened it with nuclear annihilation, economic deprivation and arm twisting, radio and TV jamming etc... the list is endless.

It speaks highly of the fortitude of the people of Cuba who've chosen to stay back [unlike those of us with our particular type of slavish mentality], that despite the constant sense of paranoia that they have to suffer from each time a neighbouring banana republic decides to chart an independent path, and is immediately brought to books by the arrogant behemoth that is the US [recent examples being Haiti, Nicaragua and Panama] -- that they still manage to have more self-belief and national-pride than us -- to be able to laugh at themselves through their films, literature, songs... unlike us, who on the one hand suffer from a paranoiac sense of spurious national pride and on the other hand keep totally uptight about it!

Bouncer Fever (I am in the habit of disagreeing with bouncer, so automatically mentioned him here),
I thought the whole discussion was whether communism was practical, whether communist countries were better off than the others, whether the people there enjoyed total freedom, if communism was good enough that it could be maintained through popular vote and not through oppressive military force etc. Nice try at twisting it to sound like some of us tried to glorify the US and everything they do. But that is just not the issue here. It sounds like you have paranoia of the exact nature that Americans have towards communism but in your case, it is fear of everything Americans do.

[feverpitch]

And Toney, just as the US is not a monolith, as proved by the [I guess PBS program] TV report on Cuba, so is Cuba not a monolith. So don't just buy into the assumptions propagated by the US govt.

Example:

What would you do if you are an economic migrant to the US from say Iran, and you are told that in order to stay here, you have to denounce Iran? Trust me, except for the very early set of migrants in Miami, who were all the landed feudal and capitalist rulers of the country before 1959 and had most to lose bcoz of the revolution [but unfortunately, who gave shape to all subsequent US policy on Cuba using their money muscle], most other Cubans suffer from the same dilemma -- and for most, the solution is the same that went through your mind!

 

Go and check out how many of the recent migrants regularly go to Mexico... 
And why the old money/post-rev migrants are quite against their recent migrant brethren in the Miami area!

Lemme give you a short answer -- almost all the recent migrants vote Republican, attend anti-Castro rallies... ... ...

... ... ... and keep sending money to their relatives through Mexico!
 

[arjun]

Feverpitch,
I heard about the education and medical advancement that Cuba has made too. And just for the benefit of others, I heard this on TV in America. So, I was a little surprised at the admission.
Now, lets give Castro the benefit of doubt and say that the country has the best health care and education systems (no sarcasm intended). Why is it that Castro still has to maintain an oppressive regime to have full control of the country?
Forget what Cubans did over the rough seas to come to USA. Why do lots of Cubans try for assylum to the US and Europe? What about all the people who flee from China? All of it is not economic reason.
Cuba might be heaven compared to CHina but Cuba is far far from what the people there deserve.

Just for everybody's info, if you read my posts starting from my question to kban, it will seem obvious that I never said communism was the evil. I just said that every place in the world which was communist had oppressive regimes which gave no freedom to the people, compared to even the most shambolic of democracies. Everyone of those countries had classe in the societ, a strict no-no in Communist dreamland. So my conclusion was that communism isnt a practical ideology.

PS: k-slice, you are the only one who has got me interested in visiting Cuba at least once. And then, maybe Hemingway.

How many of you know even cursorily the history of Cuba?

Dis you know for eg, that after the revolution, Castro and Che were looking up to the US first in order to get help to build up their country? And that the US refused, because the people supported the band of merry adventurers, but the US was afraid of people power and that Batista was their client and had lots of economic interests still tied to Cuba? That 1 year after the revolution, after getting rejected by the US of any support whatsoever, they turned to USSR, got gleeful help, and turned 'communist'?

That ever since, the US has a price on Castro's head, as on Che's, whom they got ultimately in Bolivia [so Saddam is actually not the first head of state to have a yankee fatwa against him]. That the US, as a stated policy, has actively participated in, funded, precipitated several attempts at overthrowing the govt in Cuba from from Bay of Pigs to the bombing down of the Cubana Airlines in '76, orchestrated by the CIA then led by GHW Bush, threatened it with nuclear annihilation, economic deprivation and arm twisting, radio and TV jamming etc... the list is endless.

It speaks highly of the fortitude of the people of Cuba who've chosen to stay back [unlike those of us with our particular type of slavish mentality], that despite the constant sense of paranoia that they have to suffer from each time a neighbouring banana republic decides to chart an independent path, and is immediately brought to books by the arrogant behemoth that is the US [recent examples being Haiti, Nicaragua and Panama] -- that they still manage to have more self-belief and national-pride than us -- to be able to laugh at themselves through their films, literature, songs... unlike us, who on the one hand suffer from a paranoiac sense of spurious national pride and on the other hand keep totally uptight about it!

Brilliantly put, Feverpitch. Applause.

[gouravk]

and what has all this got to do with utthappa replacing gambhir ?? 

[feverpitch]

Toney:

Bouncer,
I thought the whole discussion was whether communism was practical, whether communist countries were better off than the others, whether the people there enjoyed total freedom, if communism was good enough that it could be maintained through popular vote and not through oppressive military force etc. Nice try at twisting it to sound like some of us tried to glorify the US and everything they do. But that is just not the issue here. It sounds like you have paranoia of the exact nature that Americans have towards communism but in your case, it is fear of everything Americans do.

That would be feverpitch, not bouncer!

If trying to expand the discussion by bringing in various factors that I feel might be responsible for a particular instance of a communist regime that you have used as example is twisting facts, so be it! I'm out of this discussion! You don't answer any of the queries I've raised in my previous posts either -- does that mean you are fully in agreement with ALL my statements and propositions about the US and Cuba?

[toney]

Toney:

Bouncer,
I thought the whole discussion was whether communism was practical, whether communist countries were better off than the others, whether the people there enjoyed total freedom, if communism was good enough that it could be maintained through popular vote and not through oppressive military force etc. Nice try at twisting it to sound like some of us tried to glorify the US and everything they do. But that is just not the issue here. It sounds like you have paranoia of the exact nature that Americans have towards communism but in your case, it is fear of everything Americans do.

That would be feverpitch, not bouncer!

If trying to expand the discussion by bringing in various factors that I feel might be responsible for a particular instance of a communist regime that you have used as example is twisting facts, so be it! I'm out of this discussion! You don't answer any of the queries I've raised in my previous posts either -- does that mean you are fully in agreement with ALL my statements and propositions about the US and Cuba?

Fever, this was corrected. I still dont see the relation between whether Cuba is a model for communism and what the US did to it. Please explain.

[toney]

and what has all this got to do with utthappa replacing gambhir ?? 

One of them is a communist and the other one isnt. Even has his off days?

[feverpitch]

Neither did I try to say that Cuba is a model for communism... did u find me saying that anywhere...

However, I dont conflate one issue with another... ie, I dont deduce from the fact of Cuba not being a model of communism — that I know more about what Cuban people want [to quote you: Cuba might be heaven compared to CHina but Cuba is far far from what the people there deserve.] All I was saying is that while I do not support oppression, I do understand the rationale behind the paranoiac attitude displayed by sections of the Cuban government. The reasons I've tried explaining above.

I'll go one better... While I sympathize with the Cubans for their paranoia about Yankee imperialism, I pity the Yankee paranoia about the impending Cuban military attack on the US!

 

[feverpitch]

and what has all this got to do with utthappa replacing gambhir ?? 

One of them is a communist and the other one isnt. Even has his off days?

nope!

You're from Kerala and I've spent a large part of my life in Bengal

-- so you're a mallu and i'm a bong...

which means both of us are communists...

in other words... SG supporters...

... so what are we fighting about? 

Cheers!!!

[toney]

Nope, we arent fighting for anything . And just to further the Yankee paranoia about communism, this is our way of starting a communist revolution here, starting with the DG.
OK, I hope the FBI doesnt whisk me away soon. They should show the decency to wait till I am done with lunch.

BTW, dont know if you follow the political situation in India closely. Kerala is in election fever right now.

[feverpitch]

So is bengal... and our CPM bosses are in a tizzy with the election commissioner having found out HUGE instances of electoral fraud in the past!
 

[feverpitch]

OK, I hope the FBI doesnt whisk me away soon. They should show the decency to wait till I am done with lunch.

Are you still there? No!

Ok! See you at Gitmo!

 

But remember, I will be hounding you for answers to my questions there as well...

[toney]

sure, see you in Gitmo. But I think they'll keep you in solitary confinement, so good luck talking to the walls. And going by past allegations, you might see a a couple of Das Kapitals flushed down the toilet too.