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[pieterSAN]

This is not the first time we have been here. Not so long ago we are moaning the selection of Dravid in the ODIs. After that Yuvi  was blasted for not having the game to succeed at this level. And now it is Kaif in the firing line.

I think we all agree that he needs to perform better. Some of us feel that we have been giving him too many chances. Some of us feel Laxman would have been better if he were given so many chances.

I posted the following on another thread : of the 111 ODIs that Kaif has played for India in his career, India has won 55%. Since Kaif's debut Laxman played has played 53 ODIs and India has won 42% of them.

Now why is it that Kaif's inclusion has made a 13% difference over Laxman over such long timeline if Laxman was that good?

Laxman             53  1657 131   35.25   5   6   0   -       -    0  24  0
Kaif                111  2448 111*  32.64   2  14   -   -       -    -  52  0

Why is it that over this period, that Laxman as been able to maintain barely three run advantage over Kaif?

Considering the fact that Kaif saves runs in the fields and runs harder for his partners runs, you would think that he is a better fit for the ODI team?

Let me reiterate that this does not excuse poor performance. GC made it clear that "we will give Kaif as many chances as we can". He expressed confidence in his player. Obviously Kaif's work ethic adn attitude has impressed GC. If this is also factored into the performance equation than it is fine with me. For some on the DG this is double standards. Nevertheless, GC also made it clear that other players can force their way into the side.

However, the spirit with which the Laxman case has bee extolled is quite ridiculous. As ridiculous as the debate before the second Test against England when people wanted Laxman dropped because Kaif made 91 in the first Test. I mean clearly in Tests, Laxman will be picked ahead of Kaif. But hell that one 91 made all the difference back then.

But you can bet your last dollar that every body in the team is backing Kaif here because this is the poor sob that dives around and chases and runs like a hare between wickets scoring runs for his mates until he is burger.

[gouravk]

Yeah I can never forget how madly everyone was after Yuvi's head during the SL series. And now they are all quiet. If a class player like Yuvraj has to take so much heat no wonder Kaif is getting it.

But I think Kaif will come out strong out of this.

[feverpitch]

And if you also check... in the polls for the 4th odi, HS is so far leading RD by a vote... the same HS whom a majority wanted out only a few days ago... speaks volumes for our fickle minds...

[gouravk]

I have nothing to say to people who vote for leaving out RD.

[Cover Point]

Lets move the discussion from the other thread here

Quote from: dhruvdeepak on Today at 09:26:36 AM

it might also be time for Kaif to score a 100 and shut everyone up

Its not his form I am worried about DD. I think we know what he can do for us when in form and I have no doubt that he is capable of scoring a 100 or anchoring a chase or keeping his cool at the death when in form. I am more worried about the fact that he doesnt have as many strokes or does not have the ability to accelerate the scoring as needed from a lower order batsman. I think he has the ability of being a poorer version of Dravid. Which is fine but we dont need too many Dravids in the team. Specially since the Dravids of the world are reliable and you know you can expect them to come good with being an anchor more often than not. So with a fit Sachin and Dravid we dont need another anchor.

Stroke players by definition are less reliable (the whole argument of why VS does not average more than he does at his phenominal SR of 100). So you need more of them as a fail safe to them failing. Thus my suggestion that Kaif may have outlived his utility unless he can show more consistency than Dravid or can discover some amazing strokeplay

[suraj]

well said gaurav

I can think of only 2 reasons why someone cld suggest dropping RD for  a game

1. We are so good that like the Aussies we start resting players- like RP; not illogical but we are not even close to being there yet

2. someone who hates RD because he took over captaincy from the Prince; absurd reason

[ramshorns]

It is silly to  bring up other players into contention when they are not in the picture.  Kaif right now the way he has been batting for last 12-14 ODI games does not merit a selection on his batting.  The way GC is vouching for kaif sounded like it was the second coming of Viv Richards.  He sounded silly when he compared Kaif to himself saying that he had 7 0's at some point in his career.  So if this is the way he want to judge players keeping the individuals ahead of the team then that is wrong.   It is just not warranted IMO.  The guys leaps, runs shows the right attitude and then comes to the crease and has the deer in a headlight look when the team needs him.   Great if this is the way Cricket is supposed to work then I know nothing.  Sure I will take all these intangibles if the guy is reasonable with the bat and not the other way around.

[suraj]

I really don't believe that despite all the luv for Kaif he will stay in teh team if he performs like this couple more times. Just like SG was valuable as a captain but lost his place because of oor batting performances, Kaif should alaso not be able to reatin his place purely based on fielding and attitude. But he will get coule more chances and I hope he turns things around to become a powerful allround weapon for the team.

[ramshorns]

Just like SG was valuable as a captain but lost his place because of oor batting performances, Kaif should alaso not be able to reatin his place purely based on fielding and attitude.

Good you brought this up Suraj.  The difference is SG is out and Kaif is not.   My issue is not with Kaif getting chances.  But it is with GC going out of the way to vouch for him.  That to me is a double standard.

[feverpitch]

well said gaurav

I can think of only 2 reasons why someone cld suggest dropping RD for  a game

1. We are so good that like the Aussies we start resting players- like RP; not illogical but we are not even close to being there yet

2. someone who hates RD because he took over captaincy from the Prince; absurd reason

What about ppl suggesting the dropping of HS a few days ago? Is that not so important, eh? Or has dropping a captain because of personal views suddenly become off limits, now that SG has been deposed?

I'm asking this only because for years now, Prem's blog/DG [from which this DG originated, and contains many old participants] has actively fostered the campaign against SG...

As you will notice, I was the one who raised the issue here. So what I'm suggesting is that don't jump into broad conclusions!

[suraj]

Just like SG was valuable as a captain but lost his place because of oor batting performances, Kaif should alaso not be able to reatin his place purely based on fielding and attitude.

Good you brought this up Suraj.  The difference is SG is out and Kaif is not.   My issue is not with Kaif getting chances.  But it is with GC going out of the way to vouch for him.  That to me is a double standard.

Definitely- I wud say that if kaif has a couple more of these performances and GC still persists, it will mean double standards

[OldPal]

Well..
I am one of them who wants Kaif rested for the next match. Let me also state that he is from my home town and I have met his father in person once i was in ALLD.
No- this is not the logic i will use for him to sit out.

Kaif - Fields good saves 7 runs( ? ) more then say VRao , 1 more catch then VRao in 5 matches(if you want to count that)
Kaif- may push the guy at other end for 2-3 additional runs during his bat innings.
Kaif- is a team player
Kaif- Is a good batsman ( law of average)
-------------------------
Kaif- cant bowl.
Kaif- Starts slowly and goes for big hits only at a comfort zone. I wont call him a big hitter yet: His innings is valuable at a certain stage.
Kaif- A player who's strike rate if over 80 at a stage he come we should be happy.
Kaif- I wont call him a finisher like Dhoni,IKP,YS,RP etc..
Kaif - does not have good scores to backup in last few innings.

I understand if he sits out from team there is not much cricket happening now that he can play, thus he has to regain form only in international matches in current scenario( For that some of have to agree that he is not performing since few matches)

As I had mentioned, and also sound bites from other media sources- Kaif has some mental issues and once in few runs he will get comfortable.
This we are talking about someone who has over 100 ODIS.
Mental, Physical ,Crickect etc.. combination of all these make a cricketer. Just batting good or bowling good in nets dosen't make you a very good International cricketer.
OK - now saving some time for me and everybody- Y eye vant him 2 cit in next game.

1. VRao is a good player and should not be deprived of his share
2. Mkaif - yes there is a mental problem- relieve him of playing an important match for india that we have to win if my 7-0 prediction has to hold good. After we are up 4-0 Have dravid sit out in  next match and let VR and Mkaif both play.
3. Yes Mkaif may score 100 in this match - but he can still score a zero( need one ball to get out - many to score 100)- lets not forsee how much he scores. should open a separate thread for that.
4. Let us not overemhasise on Fielding.
Yes-It is a critical component.
 Kaif does 1/8 th of fielding (leaving keeper and bowler) , and counting he is equal to 2 fielders. The guy replacing him won't be fielding zero. He would also be an international cricketer.
VRao :- His replacement can bowl, bat good and for those who have watched him he is a good fielder- yes i agree not upto Mkaif though.

I think what i am trying to say is : I understand that Mkaif is in WC-07 plan,I believe VRoa is also  in that Run- It is as important for the other Kid to play as for Mkaif to get in some runs. India requires both of them- We cant unduly emphasise on one negating other.

[suraj]

well said gaurav

I can think of only 2 reasons why someone cld suggest dropping RD for  a game

1. We are so good that like the Aussies we start resting players- like RP; not illogical but we are not even close to being there yet

2. someone who hates RD because he took over captaincy from the Prince; absurd reason

What about ppl suggesting the dropping of HS a few days ago? Is that not so important, eh? Or has dropping a captain because of personal views suddenly become off limits, now that SG has been deposed?

I'm asking this only because for years now, Prem's blog/DG [from which this DG originated, and contains many old participants] has actively fostered the campaign against SG...

As you will notice, I was the one who raised the issue here. So what I'm suggesting is that don't jump into broad conclusions!

Not sure abt the point you are trying to make. If you are comparing HS' contributions to RD's then all I can say is its like showing candlelight to sun.

As for "them" conspiring against SG and "others" conspiring for him- well we can get up every morning and start beating a dead horse again and again but I wud rather have a life!

[toney]

HS was in very good bowling form in the ODIs from the SL series onwards. In tests, OK he didnt get wkts but it was obvious from the way he bowled on some of those featherbeds that there wasnt a whole lot wrong with him. I am pretty sure people who called for his head hardly watched him bowl dring the period.

I really wish Kaif will make a quick return to form. Perhaps, win the game at Kochi and then send him at No3 for the remaining matches. That'll allow him the luxury of paying himself in, with the added assuarance that there are batsmen to follow.

[suraj]

Well..
I am one of them who wants Kaif rested for the next match. Let me also state that he is from my home town and I have met his father in person once i was in ALLD.
No- this is not the logic i will use for him to sit out.

Kaif - Fields good saves 7 runs( ? ) more then say VRao , 1 more catch then VRao in 5 matches(if you want to count that)
Kaif- may push the guy at other end for 2-3 additional runs during his bat innings.
Kaif- is a team player
Kaif- Is a good batsman ( law of average)
-------------------------
Kaif- cant bowl.
Kaif- Starts slowly and goes for big hits only at a comfort zone. I wont call him a big hitter yet: His innings is valuable at a certain stage.
Kaif- A player who's strike rate if over 80 at a stage he come we should be happy.
Kaif- I wont call him a finisher like Dhoni,IKP,YS,RP etc..
Kaif - does not have good scores to backup in last few innings.

I understand if he sits out from team there is not much cricket happening now that he can play, thus he has to regain form only in international matches in current scenario( For that some of have to agree that he is not performing since few matches)

As I had mentioned, and also sound bites from other media sources- Kaif has some mental issues and once in few runs he will get comfortable.
This we are talking about someone who has over 100 ODIS.
Mental, Physical ,Crickect etc.. combination of all these make a cricketer. Just batting good or bowling good in nets dosen't make you a very good International cricketer.
OK - now saving some time for me and everybody- Y eye vant him 2 cit in next game.

1. VRao is a good player and should not be deprived of his share
2. Mkaif - yes there is a mental problem- relieve him of playing an important match for india that we have to win if my 7-0 prediction has to hold good. After we are up 4-0 Have dravid sit out in  next match and let VR and Mkaif both play.
3. Yes Mkaif may score 100 in this match - but he can still score a zero- lets not forsee how much he scores. should open a separate thread for that.
4. Let us not overemhasise on Fielding.
Yes-It is a critical component.
 Kaif does 1/8 th of fielding (leaving keeper and bowler) , and counting he is equal to 2 fielders. The guy replacing him won't be fielding zero. He would also be an international cricketer.
VRao :- His replacement can bowl, bat good and for those who have watched him he is a good fielder- yes i agree not upto Mkaif though.

I think what i am trying to say is : I understand that Mkaif is in WC-07 plan,I believe VRoa is also  in that Run- It is as important for the other Kid to play as for Mkaif to get in some runs. India requires both of them- We cant unduly emphasise on one negating other.

Good analysis

[chetan]

Well..
I am one of them who wants Kaif rested for the next match. Let me also state that he is from my home town and I have met his father in person once i was in ALLD.
No- this is not the logic i will use for him to sit out.

Kaif - Fields good saves 7 runs( ? ) more then say VRao , 1 more catch then VRao in 5 matches(if you want to count that)
Kaif- may push the guy at other end for 2-3 additional runs during his bat innings.
Kaif- is a team player
Kaif- Is a good batsman ( law of average)
-------------------------
Kaif- cant bowl.
Kaif- Starts slowly and goes for big hits only at a comfort zone. I wont call him a big hitter yet: His innings is valuable at a certain stage.
Kaif- A player who's strike rate if over 80 at a stage he come we should be happy.
Kaif- I wont call him a finisher like Dhoni,IKP,YS,RP etc..
Kaif - does not have good scores to backup in last few innings.

I understand if he sits out from team there is not much cricket happening now that he can play, thus he has to regain form only in international matches in current scenario( For that some of have to agree that he is not performing since few matches)

As I had mentioned, and also sound bites from other media sources- Kaif has some mental issues and once in few runs he will get comfortable.
This we are talking about someone who has over 100 ODIS.
Mental, Physical ,Crickect etc.. combination of all these make a cricketer. Just batting good or bowling good in nets dosen't make you a very good International cricketer.
OK - now saving some time for me and everybody- Y eye vant him 2 cit in next game.

1. VRao is a good player and should not be deprived of his share
2. Mkaif - yes there is a mental problem- relieve him of playing an important match for india that we have to win if my 7-0 prediction has to hold good. After we are up 4-0 Have dravid sit out in  next match and let VR and Mkaif both play.
3. Yes Mkaif may score 100 in this match - but he can still score a zero( need one ball to get out - many to score 100)- lets not forsee how much he scores. should open a separate thread for that.
4. Let us not overemhasise on Fielding.
Yes-It is a critical component.
 Kaif does 1/8 th of fielding (leaving keeper and bowler) , and counting he is equal to 2 fielders. The guy replacing him won't be fielding zero. He would also be an international cricketer.
VRao :- His replacement can bowl, bat good and for those who have watched him he is a good fielder- yes i agree not upto Mkaif though.

I think what i am trying to say is : I understand that Mkaif is in WC-07 plan,I believe VRoa is also  in that Run- It is as important for the other Kid to play as for Mkaif to get in some runs. India requires both of them- We cant unduly emphasise on one negating other.

pankaj, i would rather have MK in the team for the next match and get VR into the team in place of RD after we have won the series. As you state, let me also state that VR is from my state

[OldPal]

Chetan -
Looks  like both of us are altruist
Also - It depends if RU is drafted in team, then the addition of  VR may be a risk- THe team i have in mind is without RU in next ODI - I may have a different opinion then most of the other DG folks here.

[OldPal]

send him at No3 for the remaining matches. That'll allow him the luxury of paying himself in, with the added assuarance that there are batsmen to follow.

Very good point Toney. Actually we dont have to wait for him to score in Kochi.
Once we have a good start in Kochi we can send him one down if he is in the team. That would help him build some confidence.

[chetan]

Chetan -
Looks  like both of us are altruist
Also - It depends if RU is drafted in team, then the addition of  VR may be a risk- THe team i have in mind is without RU in next ODI - I may have a different opinion then most of the other DG folks here.

i'm beginning to think RU was drafted into the squad so that he can prove himself to be more worthy than VS. i think the management wants an opener who scores quickly but is also consistent. VS hasn't fit this bill for long and i think *if* RU is good, then he'll partner SRT in the world cup with VS being relegated to the spot of a backup opener.

[OldPal]

*if* RU is good, then he'll partner SRT in the world cup with VS being relegated to the spot of a backup opener.

Wooooooooo.. That is pretty strong opinion .
Veeru ko pata chelga then dont know who will save you 

[toney]

who knows, Veeru might be so upset he wont eat his daily quota of 8 aaloo parathas

[chetan]

who knows, Veeru might be so upset he wont eat his daily quota of 8 aaloo parathas

lol
but i hope you are right

[toney]

chetan, even then, there is malai, sweets... the list is endless.

[OldPal]

who knows, Veeru might be so upset he wont eat his daily quota of 8 aaloo parathas

That is looking at the "half full" glass.. would be blessing in disguise for him.

[OldPal]

chetan, even then, there is malai, sweets... the list is endless.

OK so what is it he doesn't eats ?

[toney]

Isnt Veeru a vegetarian? Thank God for that. Otherwise, I cant imagine an Inzy in our team, anInzy nearly a foot shorter.

I dont have a problem with what he eats. But I wish he would eat in moderation. Right now, Veeru puts even me to shame

[gouravk]

THis has been the season that has kind of brought sehwag down to earth. he is at the crossroads now. he can either analyse what went wrong work on it and go the dravid way or keep going as he has been and go the ganguly way.

[ramshorns]

THis has been the season that has kind of brought sehwag down to earth. he is at the crossroads now. he can either analyse what went wrong work on it and go the dravid way or keep going as he has been and go the ganguly way.

And add Kaif to that list as well.

[pieterSAN]

Some of you are going by appearances. Kaif maybe fidgety at the crease and he does not "look good" when he scores runs let alone when he is in poor form. Again his record coming in the middle order is out there. He averages less than what you would want from a #5 and #6 but some of you are blinded by this poor run. Inspite of all these low scores, he stil averages 32. That may not be brilliant but it is decent . Dilshan for Sl averages 28. Stris averages 28. De Villiers for SA averages 21 (all over the batting order).

You guys repeatedly make him sound like a tailender. He is struggling for form. He works hard for the team's sake so back him. If and when he does get drops I am not going to complain because they tried to make it work.

[ramshorns]

You guys repeatedly make him sound like a tailender. He is struggling for form. He works hard for the team's sake so back him. If and when he does get drops I am not going to complain because they tried to make it work.

And that time has come now and importantly others deserve a chance ahead of him.   It is not just about Kaif alone but others waiting in the wings as well.

[gouravk]

The pressure is very much on Kaif ... maybe more than what is fair. But he will deliver in the next couple of games. If not the pressure will finally be too much to bear.

[toney]

The pressure is very much on Kaif ... maybe more than what is fair. But he will deliver in the next couple of games. If not the pressure will finally be too much to bear.

Takes the cake...

[pieterSAN]

The pressure is very much on Kaif ... maybe more than what is fair. But he will deliver in the next couple of games. If not the pressure will finally be too much to bear.

Takes the cake...

Got to admit - that was incorrigible

[gouravk]

which part of it exactly ?

[OldPal]

which part of it exactly ?

"the"

[toney]

which part of it exactly ?

"the"

LOL

[pieterSAN]

Gouravk:
Your statment covers all possibilities...it's called "stating the obvious". Kind of "relieved the tension so to speak. 

[gouravk]

Well the important part was that the pressure is perhaps unfairly large.

[toney]

gourav,
dont leave a lot of blank lines when you post, please

[pieterSAN]

Toney,
I think that's because of the avtar, Gouravk is using.