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[Blwe_torch]

It is not the theory sir. The theory was fine....only that it wasn't implemented.
I am of the opinion that KKR at the moment has no better captain than Ganguly.
I don't see any worse thing happening to KKR...............and Ganguly has always been a fine captain.

Blwe:For your sake I would want SG to take the mantle one last time.  All is lost now for KKR because even if they win all five, six wins will not get them to the SF's.  May be SG can inspire some of these new players to better performances and get couple of wins.  Sometimes a change in gaurd does help with a new voice.  Why not?

Thanks................but not for my sake alone.
For the team's sake....for the fans' sake...........atleast.
The problem is, SG has too much self-respect,  and he may not accept it........until SRK or Buchy begs him to.

Jaake bheekh maang saa** !

[proloy]

if you want to change your captain, please do so well in advance, not when the tournament is about to begin.

Change the captain for good reasons. Like, if the captain is not up to the task, can't lead, can't read the game properly etc, and there are better substitutes. Don't change captains merely to promulgate theories.

The first choice captain was Gayle -- something which has escaped most people's attention. That is, a guy who by his own admission does not even know the other members of the side very well. What drives this...? What were the motives for bringing this sort of a guy as captain?

[Blwe_torch]

if you want to change your captain, please do so well in advance, not when the tournament is about to begin.

Change the captain for good reasons. Like, if the captain is not up to the task, can't lead, can't read the game properly etc, and there are better substitutes. Don't change captains merely to promulgate theories.

The first choice captain was Gayle -- something which has escaped most people's attention. That is, a guy who by his own admission does not even know the other members of the side very well. What drives this...? What were the motives for bringing this sort of a guy as captain?

Buchy wants multiple-captains to ward off the Ganguly menace.
He thought, he alone won't be equal to the task...and hence roped in Gayle, McCullum.......etc, to stop Ganguly.
But the end-result is for all to see!

[Blwe_torch]

Where is WN?
Don't u feel inspired to type in your comments?

[Blwe_torch]

The fake blogger calls him Mr. Naan!
He has been a real Blunder-naan!

[LosingNow]

Where is WN?
Don't u feel inspired to type in your comments?

Sorry .. just got off a conf call and joining another one.

Was watching the game on mute.. how many catches did these guys drop.


I have been advocating this for a long time.. a) make SG captain; tell him this is transition year; train BM; let BM take over captaincy next year. b) sack JB and his cronies - too much wild-eyed theories here..and not implementation. c) Ask SRK and his partiers to stay 3 cities away from the the team...too much distraction.

Well, now they are truly done. So bye bye SRK. If I were SG, if things dont change like above.. he should cal it a day.

[Blwe_torch]

Where is WN?
Don't u feel inspired to type in your comments?

Sorry .. just got off a conf call and joining another one.

Was watching the game on mute.. how many catches did these guys drop.


I have been advocating this for a long time.. a) make SG captain; tell him this is transition year; train BM; let BM take over captaincy next year. b) sack JB and his cronies - too much wild-eyed theories here..and not implementation. c) Ask SRK and his partiers to stay 3 cities away from the the team...too much distraction.

Well, now they are truly done. So bye bye SRK. If I were SG, if things dont change like above.. he should cal it a day.

 

[proloy]

Buchy wants multiple-captains to ward off the Ganguly menace.
He thought, he alone won't be equal to the task...and hence roped in Gayle, McCullum.......etc, to stop Ganguly.
But the end-result is for all to see!

Actually, I don't think Buchanan started off with any malice toward Ganguly. (He may have developed a bit of it now, after all this circus, but that's understandable.)

The problem is: he was trying to fix something that was not broken at all. That's sheer idiocy.

Chappell started with malice. Not Buchanan. But Buchanan practically does not even qualify as a coach. He's not a technical expert. He needs an army of helpers -- wicketkeeping coach, third-man coach, strength coach, sleep coach...what the hell does the guy contribute himself? Except theorizing...Chappell was at least a batting technique expert.

If the Australians could win so many championships under this guy, one has to admire what great players they were.

KKR have been done in by their bowling. I don't think McCullum should be judged too harshly based on this showing. He was clearly not ready for the job, and found himself all at sea. It's showing in his fielding the most. Batting is ok -- any batsman can go through a rough patch. But his fielding, despite being a wicketkeeper, shows that his mind was totally at unease. No wonder, KKR drifted like a rudderless ship.

Has Rajput been coaching any side here...?

[cricket_news]

Delhi canter to top of the table
5 May 2009, 6:48 pm



Delhi Daredevils (Gambhir 71*, Dilshan 42*) beat Kolkata Knight Riders 154 for 3 (van Wyk 74, Sangwan 2-29) by nine wickets

Scorecard and ball-by-ball details

How they were out



Kolkat Knight Riders woefulness in the field made Delhi Daredevils' ascent to top easier

© Associated Press

It's getting hard to keep track of who's on top of the IPL table. For the third day in a row, there was a new leader, the Delhi Daredevils occupied first place after strolling past a luckless Kolkata Knight Riders in Durban. They have a game to spare as well, and to make victory even sweeter one of their key batsmen, Gautam Gambhir, was back among the runs after an indifferent start to the tournament.

After Morne van Wyk made the most of his chance at the top of the order to push Kolkata towards a middling total, they fielded like millionaires, granting the Delhi batsmen innumerable chances to simplify the chase.

Gambhir, in particular, was virtually coaxed back to form. He was grassed a couple times, that too by two of the better fielders in the side - by Brendon McCullum on 22, and by Moises Henriques on 65 - and he was given plenty of free runs as well. Even the umpire gave him a let-off, not picking a nick to the wicketkeeper when Gambhir was on 45.

An early exchange with Ishant Sharma showed how Delhi were helped along to victory. The first over had Ishant exchanging wry grins with his Ranji team-mate Gambhir after tying him down to an outside-edged four. The smiles were gone after some woeful fielding in his next over: Ashok Dinda made a mess of a stop at fine-leg, Sourav Ganguly gave away a couple of extra runs after a less-than-athletic effort at mid-off next ball, and another Dinda fumble allowed the batsmen to return for two. Ishant lost his cool, and his line in the next delivery, presenting Gambhir a leg-side gift, which was glanced for four. Seventeen came off the over, and Delhi proved hard to rein in after that.

David Warner again showed his ability to clear the boundary, a Hayden-esque down-the-pitch pull off Dinda was the stand-out stroke in his blazing cameo. A couple of lofted drives for four off consecutive deliveries emphasized his ominous form but Ajit Agarkar beat Warner for pace two balls later, and had him holing out to Moises Henriques.

There was little relief for Kolkata, though, as Tillakaratne Dilshan demonstrated his form with a couple of cracking cover drives off Agarkar. Gambhir and Dilshan settled on a recipe of risk-free singles with a sprinkling of boundaries to keep Delhi on course. The missed chances already had the Kolkata camp frustrated, and their mood wasn't helped as several of those boundaries just beating a diving fielder. It was only towards the end that the batsmen opened out, to finish the job with an over to spare.

Such a one-sided game didn't seem on the cards after van Wyk glued their fragile top order to take them near 150. Their opening troubles seemed set to continue when McCullum struggled to get bat on ball in the first over. But in the first delivery of the third over, McCullum's bolt-down-the-track scythe finally connected and sent the ball rocketing over extra cover. A controlled on-drive for four followed next delivery, and a swat sailed past the midwicket boundary three balls later to fetch 21 runs off the over.

By the time McCullum clobbered Pradeep Sangwan over midwicket for a flat six, Kolkata were 48 for 0 after five overs, and the two batsmen were sharing a joke in the middle, not a common sight in Kolkata's campaign so far.

It was Sangwan who was laughing a couple of overs later, when he had McCullum slapping the ball straight to fine leg. The in-form Brad Hodge joined van Wyk, but Sangwan and Mishra kept the brakes on. Kolkata could only score in singles for the first five overs after the Powerplays, and the run-rate had flatlined to 6.45.

It was an uncharacteristic fielding error at long-on from AB de Villiers that helped release the pressure for Kolkata. Rajat Bhatia's next delivery was cut away for four more by van Wyk, who caressed three more boundaries in the over that followed from Sangwan. Right through the innings, van Wyk showed his ability to finess his way to the runs, rarely attempting most batsmen's favourite stroke in Twenty20, the mow over midwicket.

Just as the runs started to flow, Hodge was dismissed, slowing Kolkata down again. They were at 111 for 2 after 16, when Henriques and van Wyk opened out to lash 28 off the next two. Kolkata needed a couple more like that to finish off, but Nannes and the outstanding Ashish Nehra kept it full and straight to not let them get into fifth gear.

Kolkata finished with a total that was disappointing given the wicket still in hand, but it was nowhere as disheartening as the shoddiness in the field that was to follow.

Siddarth Ravindran is a sub-editor at Cricinfo



Source: India news from Cricinfo

[dlee1]

its true they made a blunder of dropping sg as the captain,but a bigger question that lurks here is how well did sg handle this issue.did he have the right to sulk?absolutely yes but only in private not in public.my concern here is that whatever happened whether right or wrong is not the point but what is more imp is whether after all of this did sg put all his weight behind the captain/team?we all know the amount of influence he could have on the team members(young indian players).my concern is that he failed to rise above the controversy and move ahead and that could have played an imp part atleast in the team spirit.SEE article:
http://content.cricinfo.com/iplpage2/content/story/401969.html
Instead of rising above and fully backing the team and captain he prob sulked and that contributed to the mess.
please read the article and comment.

[WicketView]

its true they made a blunder of dropping sg as the captain,but a bigger question that lurks here is how well did sg handle this issue.did he have the right to sulk?absolutely yes but only in private not in public.my concern here is that whatever happened whether right or wrong is not the point but what is more imp is whether after all of this did sg put all his weight behind the captain/team?we all know the amount of influence he could have on the team members(young indian players).my concern is that he failed to rise above the controversy and move ahead and that could have played an imp part atleast in the team spirit.SEE article:
http://content.cricinfo.com/iplpage2/content/story/401969.html
Instead of rising above and fully backing the team and captain he prob sulked and that contributed to the mess.
please read the article and comment.

Read article. Mentally put it in trash can.

[WicketView]

Buchy wants multiple-captains to ward off the Ganguly menace.
He thought, he alone won't be equal to the task...and hence roped in Gayle, McCullum.......etc, to stop Ganguly.
But the end-result is for all to see!

Actually, I don't think Buchanan started off with any malice toward Ganguly. (He may have developed a bit of it now, after all this circus, but that's understandable.)

The problem is: he was trying to fix something that was not broken at all. That's sheer idiocy.

Chappell started with malice. Not Buchanan.

Actually, I don't think either of them did.

The thing with Buchanan is that (I did not keep track of him before ... but I realize now) that he has a record of putting forth his revolutionary ideas to the media. In all other cases, it seems the ideas got what they deserved ... little attention and a quick burial. This was relatively painless. This time, the moment he said it, the media latched on ... we gave it way too much importance in debates, various justifications (some may be meaninful, others less so). And after that something had to be done. He could not just back out ... so the multiple captain for multiple matches theory was floated. And then he probably tried to sideline the person who was probably the most important opposition to his idea.

But Buchanan practically does not even qualify as a coach. He's not a technical expert. He needs an army of helpers -- wicketkeeping coach, third-man coach, strength coach, sleep coach...what the hell does the guy contribute himself? Except theorizing...Chappell was at least a batting technique expert.

If the Australians could win so many championships under this guy, one has to admire what great players they were.

KKR have been done in by their bowling. I don't think McCullum should be judged too harshly based on this showing. He was clearly not ready for the job, and found himself all at sea. It's showing in his fielding the most. Batting is ok -- any batsman can go through a rough patch. But his fielding, despite being a wicketkeeper, shows that his mind was totally at unease. No wonder, KKR drifted like a rudderless ship.

Has Rajput been coaching any side here...?

[dlee1]

yes put it in the trash can !!!!!

[kban1]

its true they made a blunder of dropping sg as the captain,but a bigger question that lurks here is how well did sg handle this issue.did he have the right to sulk?absolutely yes but only in private not in public.my concern here is that whatever happened whether right or wrong is not the point but what is more imp is whether after all of this did sg put all his weight behind the captain/team?we all know the amount of influence he could have on the team members(young indian players).my concern is that he failed to rise above the controversy and move ahead and that could have played an imp part atleast in the team spirit.SEE article:
http://content.cricinfo.com/iplpage2/content/story/401969.html
Instead of rising above and fully backing the team and captain he prob sulked and that contributed to the mess.
please read the article and comment.

Ganguly, on the evidence of most reports and what we are seeing on the filed of play has been very forthcoming. He has helped McCullum and has chipped on with his opinions whenever possible --this much is quite clear from the match feeds.

As far as the article in question, this is one journo's take on it.

The 2 issues highlighted here are his "sigh" and his  "verbal response".

I have read at least one other report that stated that the "sigh" was an expression provoked by the same line of senstaional questioning rather than a reflection of his attitude towards his team.

The "verbal response", IMO, could and should have been better handled. Instead of saying he would not be able to answer the question, he could have answered more diplomatically simply because his response could be construed, by those inclined to construe it as such, as sulking, irrespective of whether that was what it indeed was.

[dlee1]

Its not one journo's take on the matter but the words that he actaully spoke and it is for us to interpret it.
the sigh part agreed to what u say ,but the verbal response sums it up , and this is what i am pointing out to .He is not a novice out there who did not know how to handle it.like you said his response should have been definately different and should have been worded in a way that would have shown him and the team  in good light.
its not a question of what u and me think but pray tell me what would one think of his attitude if one were to read this article?

[WicketView]

Its not one journo's take on the matter but the words that he actaully spoke and it is for us to interpret it.
the sigh part agreed to what u say ,but the verbal response sums it up , and this is what i am pointing out to .He is not a novice out there who did not know how to handle it.like you said his response should have been definately different and should have been worded in a way that would have shown him and the team  in good light.
its not a question of what u and me think but pray tell me what would one think of his attitude if one were to read this article?

I think you missed something in Kban's response. For your convenience, I will put it in bold:

he could have answered more diplomatically simply because his response could be construed, by those inclined to construe it as such, as sulking, irrespective of whether that was what it indeed was.

The fact is that there is no evidence to suggest that he has not put in the inputs where they matter, in fact to the contrary. Do you think the team gets buoyed and sinks by his interviews (which may be the only time the public sees him) when they are interacting all the time (on account of being in the same team)?He did not criticize McCullum (quite correctly I believe), even when everyone else has been. Sensationalization at its worst.

[12th_Man]

And when I am wondering what was wrong with Agarkar he obliges and deliver two boundary balls.  The real Agarkar finally shows up.  Good.  There is nothing wrong with the world.

I agree it is speculative, I dont have the real insights on what is going on. The opnion is based on reading the acts as they unfold.
SG does not seem may get to ball today with six bowlers already used.  In batting he was number six after  Saha, may be ysahpal would have come before him, Not that I wanted SG to open or anything, but the instructions that were to some of these overseas bats seemed like they have to stay till over 20.
KKR's batting has been problem so far. So they trusted all foreign bats for this ?

Why not ask Yashpal or Saha to just go and tonk all bowls in nets and let these guys play a small cameo in middle. If BHodge was asked to play a graftign inngs at 50 SR to start with, why not Saha or SG ?
Having trusting all desi bowlers is fine, but mendis does belong there.
I hate to say but they are trying strategies they can't sustain.  If Mendis is a better bowler why not have him in game.

I think along the way you need to also give some respect to the opposing bowlers.  Nehra and Nannes for most part this game and Mishra bowled very well.  So I do not think not using SG was bad or playing all the 4 overseas bats in the top 4 positions totally wrong either.  I do not think in a must win game Yashpal Singh or Saha are the answers though I like Saha to be used widely in the coming games.

I think your criticism of Hodge is harsh.  Go look at the prior two games on how well he played.  I think he is a better option than SG or Saha all things considered in this KKR lineup.  Because he did not come off in this game does not mean we doubt his credentials.  On the same token SG has three games where he scored 0, 1 an 1 and looked bad.  So who is to say he would not have pulled off one of those.

The only thing I am puzzled just like others here is what happended to Mendis and why is he not being used.   That beats me.

I don't deny Hodge coming out good in last few matches. Also please let me reiterate I am not trying to pick on a specific player. I am just amused overall how all this KKR drama is playing and where they have landed themselves as of today.

The message that came out today was: They selected to bat after toss, socre maximum runs and put the opposition under pressure after scoring enough.
When the batting order unfolded they wanted to play all their overseas players at top considering all of them are best hitters or grafters or a mix of these (whatever i don't care), but they played all those four for 19.5 overs with a dream start that was lacking all this time for them agaisnt an attack(BM coming good) against an attack of Sangwan,Bhatia,Mishra Nehra and Naani.

Now here is my take of this.
Their designed strategy for batting worked. this was their best case scenario that all their overseas player play 20 overs, with BM coming back in form.  A score of 157 in best case scenario is sub par score against any any attack forget the KKR attack of Ishant (who we all know is not great in T20),Dinda,Agarkar,Karthik,Hodge and Henri.
Needless to say that DD did not need the services of their 2 down bat, Thanks to GG's willow.

What I am saying that is hidden between all these lines is the fact you brought up: Mendis not being used but also their lack of compelete faith in local talent's batting.
The second being bigger concern as now you are counting your 4 overseas bats to play the role of slogger and anchor or perfectionist whatever the scenario be. This is where I brought the name of Brad Hodge. I understand KKR has batting issues, but let us just consider AA,SG and WSaha from KKR side:
 Considering , KKR wants to sustain todays strategy (Why can't someone like Saha be clearly told: Practice hitting the ball no matter where you see it, or send in Agarkar and ask him to throw the bat whereve he sees the ball,  Or ask SG to play quitely like BHodge for some time and flourish after that( the worst is he will fail like Hodge ?).

Coming to bottomline comment, A team strategy(either batting or bowling) designed just along certain(4 overseas player) in team is not sustainable, The local players are the ones whom should be trusted more as they are the ones who would be with team for most of the time and ultimately in long run help the team.
KKR anyway has no hopes in short term. Today their strategy revolved around oppositions inability to chase 157 against KKR attack(remeber their batting with all stalwarts clicked). Such teams can't think short term or long term.  They can only try to implement a 5K year old formula. Yes I am pis*ed at the handiling of this team and at this time only want to fault JB.

[dlee1]

its not   by those inclined to construe what matters but how one comes across that is important.
sg may be giving his inputs and i am not saying anything against it,but what i am pointing is the position that he takes in the interview. of course he is not going to criticize mccullum in public , but on the other hand atleast he could say something in his support which he doesnt.this is what is striking!!

[ramshorns]

And when I am wondering what was wrong with Agarkar he obliges and deliver two boundary balls.  The real Agarkar finally shows up.  Good.  There is nothing wrong with the world.

I agree it is speculative, I dont have the real insights on what is going on. The opnion is based on reading the acts as they unfold.
SG does not seem may get to ball today with six bowlers already used.  In batting he was number six after  Saha, may be ysahpal would have come before him, Not that I wanted SG to open or anything, but the instructions that were to some of these overseas bats seemed like they have to stay till over 20.
KKR's batting has been problem so far. So they trusted all foreign bats for this ?

Why not ask Yashpal or Saha to just go and tonk all bowls in nets and let these guys play a small cameo in middle. If BHodge was asked to play a graftign inngs at 50 SR to start with, why not Saha or SG ?
Having trusting all desi bowlers is fine, but mendis does belong there.
I hate to say but they are trying strategies they can't sustain.  If Mendis is a better bowler why not have him in game.

I think along the way you need to also give some respect to the opposing bowlers.  Nehra and Nannes for most part this game and Mishra bowled very well.  So I do not think not using SG was bad or playing all the 4 overseas bats in the top 4 positions totally wrong either.  I do not think in a must win game Yashpal Singh or Saha are the answers though I like Saha to be used widely in the coming games.

I think your criticism of Hodge is harsh.  Go look at the prior two games on how well he played.  I think he is a better option than SG or Saha all things considered in this KKR lineup.  Because he did not come off in this game does not mean we doubt his credentials.  On the same token SG has three games where he scored 0, 1 an 1 and looked bad.  So who is to say he would not have pulled off one of those.

The only thing I am puzzled just like others here is what happended to Mendis and why is he not being used.   That beats me.

I don't deny Hodge coming out good in last few matches. Also please let me reiterate I am not trying to pick on a specific player. I am just amused overall how all this KKR drama is playing and where they have landed themselves as of today.

The message that came out today was: They selected to bat after toss, socre maximum runs and put the opposition under pressure after scoring enough.
When the batting order unfolded they wanted to play all their overseas players at top considering all of them are best hitters or grafters or a mix of these (whatever i don't care), but they played all those four for 19.5 overs with a dream start that was lacking all this time for them agaisnt an attack(BM coming good) against an attack of Sangwan,Bhatia,Mishra Nehra and Naani.

Now here is my take of this.
Their designed strategy for batting worked. this was their best case scenario that all their overseas player play 20 overs, with BM coming back in form.  A score of 157 in best case scenario is sub par score against any any attack forget the KKR attack of Ishant (who we all know is not great in T20),Dinda,Agarkar,Karthik,Hodge and Henri.
Needless to say that DD did not need the services of their 2 down bat, Thanks to GG's willow.

What I am saying that is hidden between all these lines is the fact you brought up: Mendis not being used but also their lack of compelete faith in local talent's batting.
The second being bigger concern as now you are counting your 4 overseas bats to play the role of slogger and anchor or perfectionist whatever the scenario be. This is where I brought the name of Brad Hodge. I understand KKR has batting issues, but let us just consider AA,SG and WSaha from KKR side:
 Considering , KKR wants to sustain todays strategy (Why can't someone like Saha be clearly told: Practice hitting the ball no matter where you see it, or send in Agarkar and ask him to throw the bat whereve he sees the ball,  Or ask SG to play quitely like BHodge for some time and flourish after that( the worst is he will fail like Hodge ?).

Coming to bottomline comment, A team strategy(either batting or bowling) designed just along certain(4 overseas player) in team is not sustainable, The local players are the ones whom should be trusted more as they are the ones who would be with team for most of the time and ultimately in long run help the team.
KKR anyway has no hopes in short term. Today their strategy revolved around oppositions inability to chase 157 against KKR attack(remeber their batting with all stalwarts clicked). Such teams can't think short term or long term.  They can only try to implement a 5K year old formula. Yes I am pis*ed at the handiling of this team and at this time only want to fault JB.

As told by me and few others after Gayle who is feared without a doubt on his day there is no one else from this lineup that command's respect from the opponents.  That is the bottom line.

Now if you want local talent to be tried without the result in mind thus conceding the season which was on a life support anyway then it is a different discussion altogether.  I have seen Shukla and Ganguly tried higher up the order without much luck.

However I can fully see why people feel that JB prefers overseas players or trusts them more in comparison to the so called local players or to be more specific Indian domestic players.  But then when you look at the bowling he gave Dinda, Shukla and Karthik ample chances too to prove themselves.  Saha after injuries only showed up the last 3 or so games and they lost Pujara who was doing well in the warm up games.  So one need to take into account all these things before coming to a definite conclusion.

One thing that is very obvious to me when I look at the KKR roster is it is not a team loaded with talent and that is where I blame JB the most.  Who were in charge of scouting this team.  Was it just him and SRK or were people like Ganguly taken into confidence.  That is what I want to know the most about.  There is a reason why they have one win and seven losses.

[LosingNow]

Good points, Pankaj and Rams.

Frankly, I put JB's muddled thinking as the top reason for KKR debacle. Talent has to be nurtured and encouraged... where was that in KKR. Also, it is about making best use of your resources. Why on earth was AM not playing today?

This whole focus on batting is a stupid strategy .. defense wins championships (games on a consistent basis) - you have to outbowl and outfield your opposition - which KKR did not do...today and over the entire tournament. Also, this excuse of "we lost close games" doesnt fly.. 20-20 games are decided in the last 2 overs - which is 10% of the innings (similar to 5 overs in a 50 over game) - the margin for error is very small. JB et al themselves have admitted to not fully "understanding" this concept.

IMO, that is the main reason why 20-20 is not amenable to "outside coaches calling the shots"  - the game changes too fast for the effects to show up on laptop, let alone to react to them

[LosingNow]

The "verbal response", IMO, could and should have been better handled. Instead of saying he would not be able to answer the question, he could have answered more diplomatically simply because his response could be construed, by those inclined to construe it as such, as sulking, irrespective of whether that was what it indeed was.

Yep.. he should have done this..irrespective of how his response could be construed (by whoever). As a senior and influential member of the team, it is his duty to toe the party line and show a positive and motivated external appearance - whatever his internal viewpoints. It is difficult - but that is the reason why he is a senior, seasoned professional !

[LosingNow]

Has Rajput been coaching any side here...?

I think he is available.. I think he resigned or dropped himself from coaching the MI, once Pollock was appointed

[kban1]

Yep.. he should have done this..irrespective of how his response could be construed (by whoever). As a senior and influential member of the team, it is his duty to toe the party line and show a positive and motivated external appearance - whatever his internal viewpoints. It is difficult - but that is the reason why he is a senior, seasoned professional !

Isn't that exactly what I said ? 



There are 2 issues here -- lets not conflate.

1) Could and should he have handled it better ? The answer is YES -- please read my post above

2) Did he sulk ? The answer from available evidence seems to be NO

[ganavk]

Yep.. he should have done this..irrespective of how his response could be construed (by whoever). As a senior and influential member of the team, it is his duty to toe the party line and show a positive and motivated external appearance - whatever his internal viewpoints. It is difficult - but that is the reason why he is a senior, seasoned professional !

Isn't that exactly what I said ? 



There are 2 issues here -- lets not conflate.

1) Could and should he have handled it better ? The answer is YES -- please read my post above

2) Did he sulk ? The answer from available evidence seems to be NO

How are they different ? One way of showing your 'non sulking' is to handle these kind of situation better.  I can think of at least three occasions
- one pointed in the article by Dlee1 above
- When SG said 'today JB wants 4 skippers, tomorrow SRK may want 5 coaches, 5 bowlers' or something like that
- Even before that in the 1st conference when SG said ' ( mulitple captain theory) is all opinions and that it has not been discussed with him earlier' or something like that

[kban1]

How are they different ? One way of showing your 'non sulking' is to handle these kind of situation better.

As I said, people inclined a certain way will read what they want to. I covered your response in my first post.

  I can think of at least three occasions
- one pointed in the article by Dlee1 above

Already discussed

- When SG said 'today JB wants 4 skippers, tomorrow SRK may want 5 coaches, 5 bowlers' or something like that

Thats not called sulking -- that is an opinion. In this case, the opinion expressed was calling out JB's idiocy as just that --idiocy.

- Even before that in the 1st conference when SG said ' ( mulitple captain theory) is all opinions and that it has not been discussed with him earlier' or something like that

yes, whats wrong with saying that. It is a theory, and a disastrous one at that --in terms of its effects. Thats the opinion he expressed.

Expressing an opinion is not sulking.

And neither is keeping quiet like a cowardly mute the sign of the ultimate team man.

I understand that certain people never really developed a backbone that impels a response rather than accept c r a p with bowed head, but must we conflate character with sulking, and lack of the same as being the trademark of a team man ?

[ganavk]

How are they different ? One way of showing your 'non sulking' is to handle these kind of situation better.

As I said, people inclined a certain way will read what they want to. I covered your response in my first post.

  I can think of at least three occasions
- one pointed in the article by Dlee1 above

Already discussed

- When SG said 'today JB wants 4 skippers, tomorrow SRK may want 5 coaches, 5 bowlers' or something like that

Thats not called sulking -- that is an opinion. In this case, the opinion expressed was calling out JB's idiocy as just that --idiocy.

- Even before that in the 1st conference when SG said ' ( mulitple captain theory) is all opinions and that it has not been discussed with him earlier' or something like that

yes, whats wrong with saying that. It is a theory, and a disastrous one at that --in terms of its effects. Thats the opinion he expressed.

Expressing an opinion is not sulking.

And neither is keeping quiet like a cowardly mute the sign of the ultimate team man.

I understand that certain people never really developed a backbone that impels a response rather than accept c r a p with bowed head, but must we conflate character with sulking, and lack of the same as being the trademark of a team man ?

the response is in line with what you said!  my mistake
A professional cricketer/person would have answered with his batting,bowling and fielding and would not have hidden behind words such as 'expressing opinion in public'/ 'losing in the last over' etc. Guess ultimately that is the difference between someone like AK/RD and SG. the first two ones were also not treated as expected from their fans in IPL 1 or in IPL II but you do not see them sulking/airing opinions against captain/coach and generally making an a** of themselves.
remember how SRT publicly asked people to calm down after those first two losses in WC 2003 and led the re guard action in that tournament ? If SG has done something like that and assured his full support to the team they might have done far better and enhanced his reputation.

[inoc]

As told by me and few others after Gayle who is feared without a doubt on his day there is no one else from this lineup that command's respect from the opponents.  That is the bottom line.

is that a bottom line? I dont think so.

which feared player according to you provided the bottom line for KKR last year? They were one win away from the SF last year.

which feared player provided the bottom line in the RR team which won the IPL last year and may yet be in the SFs this year?

worldwide feared players in the Deccan chargers like AG, AS, HG, SA and not to mention VVS came last a year ago with two wins which is not unsurmountable by a less feared KKR even this year.

This argument of 'feared' players is bollocks. IMO.

Now if you want local talent to be tried without the result in mind thus conceding the season which was on a life support anyway then it is a different discussion altogether.  I have seen Shukla and Ganguly tried higher up the order without much luck.

this season is gone by the way not today but several matches ago....maybe even before KKR started. unknowns last year like Dinda, WS and LRS did very well. speaks something about the way this team has been handled this year.

SG has been tried in the top four in 5 occasions this year with 2 out of 5 decent performances. LRS has been in the top four in ONE occasion scoring 13 of 13. Dont know what you are on about here but the regular top half of KKR has performed worst.

However I can fully see why people feel that JB prefers overseas players or trusts them more in comparison to the so called local players or to be more specific Indian domestic players.

it is not a question of whether he feels foreign players are more trusthworthy. Is he right?

But then when you look at the bowling he gave Dinda, Shukla and Karthik ample chances too to prove themselves.  Saha after injuries only showed up the last 3 or so games and they lost Pujara who was doing well in the warm up games.  So one need to take into account all these things before coming to a definite conclusion.

a worse KKR team IMO performed better last year.

One thing that is very obvious to me when I look at the KKR roster is it is not a team loaded with talent and that is where I blame JB the most.  Who were in charge of scouting this team.  Was it just him and SRK or were people like Ganguly taken into confidence.  That is what I want to know the most about.  There is a reason why they have one win and seven losses.

i think there have been reports that SG was ignored in this years auctions. cannnot provide you with the proof but I read it somewhere. someone in the DG may oblige.


the crux of my argument is different.

you may have the best players in the world (feared players as you say) and draw a zilch, just like DC last year. and you can win the tournament with unknowns like RR did last year. the key factor is team spirit and debatable as it may be, the captain.

KKR has neither and expectedly languishing at the bottom.

[WicketView]

How are they different ? One way of showing your 'non sulking' is to handle these kind of situation better.

As I said, people inclined a certain way will read what they want to. I covered your response in my first post.

  I can think of at least three occasions
- one pointed in the article by Dlee1 above

Already discussed

- When SG said 'today JB wants 4 skippers, tomorrow SRK may want 5 coaches, 5 bowlers' or something like that

Thats not called sulking -- that is an opinion. In this case, the opinion expressed was calling out JB's idiocy as just that --idiocy.

- Even before that in the 1st conference when SG said ' ( mulitple captain theory) is all opinions and that it has not been discussed with him earlier' or something like that

yes, whats wrong with saying that. It is a theory, and a disastrous one at that --in terms of its effects. Thats the opinion he expressed.

Expressing an opinion is not sulking.

And neither is keeping quiet like a cowardly mute the sign of the ultimate team man.

I understand that certain people never really developed a backbone that impels a response rather than accept c r a p with bowed head, but must we conflate character with sulking, and lack of the same as being the trademark of a team man ?

the response is in line with what you said!  my mistake
A professional cricketer/person would have answered with his batting,bowling and fielding and would not have hidden behind words such as 'expressing opinion in public'/ 'losing in the last over' etc. Guess ultimately that is the difference between someone like AK/RD and SG. the first two ones were also not treated as expected from their fans in IPL 1 or in IPL II but you do not see them sulking/airing opinions against captain/coach and generally making an a** of themselves.
remember how SRT publicly asked people to calm down after those first two losses in WC 2003 and led the re guard action in that tournament ? If SG has done something like that and assured his full support to the team they might have done far better and enhanced his reputation.

Small difference between 2003 and this. SG actually had a hand in doing what the fans wanted. This time it is not in his hands. It is amusing to see that you suggest that he could have led the rearguard action and pick what you call 'his sulking' as so important when in fact one does not get the impression that you consider his captaincy to be important in other places.

[ramshorns]

As told by me and few others after Gayle who is feared without a doubt on his day there is no one else from this lineup that command's respect from the opponents.  That is the bottom line.

is that a bottom line? I dont think so.

which feared player according to you provided the bottom line for KKR last year? They were one win away from the SF last year.

which feared player provided the bottom line in the RR team which won the IPL last year and may yet be in the SFs this year?

worldwide feared players in the Deccan chargers like AG, AS, HG, SA and not to mention VVS came last a year ago with two wins which is not unsurmountable by a less feared KKR even this year.

This argument of 'feared' players is bollocks. IMO.

If you see the DC team last year they lost games in which they scored heavy.  Actually in one of the games they scored 214 and still lost.  So while the respect and fear factor does matter that alone will not see a team through.  Where DC lost last year was because of a thin bowling line up for most part not able to defend scores and once Symmo left even the batting was not that formidable.  Despite that Venu and Gilly and Rohit did do well overall. 

Keeping DC aside this KKR line up but for Gayle before he left and Hodge who can hold an innings together there is not a single player out there that will be selected or will command a place in any other team's 11.  That is a fact and that is what I mean by a good and an imposing line up.

Now if you want local talent to be tried without the result in mind thus conceding the season which was on a life support anyway then it is a different discussion altogether.  I have seen Shukla and Ganguly tried higher up the order without much luck.

this season is gone by the way not today but several matches ago....maybe even before KKR started. unknowns last year like Dinda, WS and LRS did very well. speaks something about the way this team has been handled this year.

SG has been tried in the top four in 5 occasions this year with 2 out of 5 decent performances. LRS has been in the top four in ONE occasion scoring 13 of 13. Dont know what you are on about here but the regular top half of KKR has performed worst.

I do not think SG excepting for that knock against the RR team which he did not finish by the way any of his knocks can be termed decent.  The knock where he scored the other day like 20 odd is ok too.  But for a person whose spot is gauranteed that is not enough IMO especially if he one of your top 3 bats supposedly.

Coming to Saha, Dinda and Shukla if they are worse than last year then too bad.  I do not know what you want to imply here.  They got their chances excepting Saha who got injured for most part and it is up to them to prove out in the middle.  And by the way I have seen Dinda bowl.  His length is too short and he does not seem to have a plan.  A coach can get you only so far.  You need to show progress after that and impress upon which is lacking in Dinda.

However I can fully see why people feel that JB prefers overseas players or trusts them more in comparison to the so called local players or to be more specific Indian domestic players.

it is not a question of whether he feels foreign players are more trusthworthy. Is he right?

At this juncture he is just trying for a winning combination like most losing teams would do.  They got it wrong with the team selection which were compounded by the non-availability of Ponting and Hussey.

But then when you look at the bowling he gave Dinda, Shukla and Karthik ample chances too to prove themselves.  Saha after injuries only showed up the last 3 or so games and they lost Pujara who was doing well in the warm up games.  So one need to take into account all these things before coming to a definite conclusion.

a worse KKR team IMO performed better last year.

Actually last year's team was better given that SG was still playing competitive cricket they had Ponting and Hussey and a better McCullum and they had Gul.  Plus all the same young local players.  I do not think this year's team is better.

One thing that is very obvious to me when I look at the KKR roster is it is not a team loaded with talent and that is where I blame JB the most.  Who were in charge of scouting this team.  Was it just him and SRK or were people like Ganguly taken into confidence.  That is what I want to know the most about.  There is a reason why they have one win and seven losses.

i think there have been reports that SG was ignored in this years auctions. cannnot provide you with the proof but I read it somewhere. someone in the DG may oblige.


the crux of my argument is different.

you may have the best players in the world (feared players as you say) and draw a zilch, just like DC last year. and you can win the tournament with unknowns like RR did last year. the key factor is team spirit and debatable as it may be, the captain.

KKR has neither and expectedly languishing at the bottom

You cannot base everything on DC of last year.   And no one said you can just throw 11 talented players and expect to win.  But you do need a certain level of talent and that is why teams go after a Symonds or a Pietersan or a Gilchrist.  And this KKR team barring Gayle who was just ok and a Hodge who is a decent 20-20 player none are even a real 20-20 calibre batsman at the present time that command a place in any other team.   More than anything else this team's lack of players as can be evidenced by trying Chopra and Bangar at various times shows why they are at the bottom.  Simple as that.  That is where the KKR team brass should be criticised.

[kban1]

the response is in line with what you said!  my mistake 

yes, your mistake(s) --

the first of which is not knowing what sulking means. Look it up.

A professional cricketer/person would have answered with his batting,bowling and fielding and would not have hidden behind words such as 'expressing opinion in public'/ 'losing in the last over' etc.

BS!!

"Losing in the last over"

The context of the quote was him saying that lets make no mistake, this team needs to improve in many respects --its not just a case of losing in the last over, its not just a simple case of luck.

What is wrong with saying that when the team has lost 7 out of 9 matches and won only 1 ? Should he have said no, we are  a great team but we are unlucky that we keep losing in the last over ? 

This constitutes sulking ?


As to the other --he was asked questions about what he thought about the multi captain theory and he responded by saying --its a theory, we have to see how it plays out.

Again, right on the money. For the record, the rest of the cricketing world says so as well --so daft is the theory.

Guess ultimately that is the difference between someone like AK/RD and SG. the first two ones were also not treated as expected from their fans in IPL 1 or in IPL II but you do not see them sulking/airing opinions against captain/coach and generally making an a** of themselves.

What he should have done is taken a page out of Dravid's book after the world cup --kept quiet and fiddled like Nero as Rome burned. While the world  (prodded by the sham of a coach's SMS and emails) castigated SRT, SG and others  for having played for money, contracts etc, and plotted to undermine Dravid, the great captain and fearless leader of men remained mum, letting his coplayers of 10+ years burn at the altar of public opinion while he decided that coming out and making a public statement dispelling such obvious lies would be the wrong thing to do.

Horror of horrors, that would be standing up against the BCCI, and his coach. Whats worse, it would mean developing a backbone and taking a stand

Yep, he did the honorable thing, toed the official line of coach and BCCI, didnt make an ass of himself, didnt sulk, played Mr. Goody 2 shoes --essentially lived up to his latent level of backbonelessness.

remember how SRT publicly asked people to calm down after those first two losses in WC 2003 and led the re guard action in that tournament ?

You forgot --it wasnt just SRT who did that.

SG and RD did the same too

If SG has done something like that and assured his full support to the team they might have done far better and enhanced his reputation.

He did assure the team of his full support. Its visible on tv, its there in numerous newspapers. If you didnt have tainted lenses, you would have seen that. 

But thats too much to ask for someone bent on his own agenda --  your posting pattern on this DG with respect to slander, lies, and unsusbtantiated facts wrt SG (along with running from the thread when confronted with evidence) is ample proof of that.

[ganavk]

the response is in line with what you said!  my mistake 

yes, your mistake(s) --

the first of which is not knowing what sulking means. Look it up.

May be you can look up the meaning of 'sarcasm'. 'sulking' SG has been pointed out by multiple people other than me and that's enough said. that also shows who wears the tainted glass here.

A professional cricketer/person would have answered with his batting,bowling and fielding and would not have hidden behind words such as 'expressing opinion in public'/ 'losing in the last over' etc.

BS!!

"Losing in the last over"

The context of the quote was him saying that lets make no mistake, this team needs to improve in many respects --its not just a case of losing in the last over, its not just a simple case of luck.

What is wrong with saying that when the team has lost 7 out of 9 matches and won only 1 ? Should he have said no, we are  a great team but we are unlucky that we keep losing in the last over ? 

This constitutes sulking ?

Yes..No ? that's not the only one statement he made and all these does not help his cause IMO

As to the other --he was asked questions about what he thought about the multi captain theory and he responded by saying --its a theory, we have to see how it plays out.

Again, right on the money. For the record, the rest of the cricketing world says so as well --so daft is the theory.

Guess ultimately that is the difference between someone like AK/RD and SG. the first two ones were also not treated as expected from their fans in IPL 1 or in IPL II but you do not see them sulking/airing opinions against captain/coach and generally making an a** of themselves.

What he should have done is taken a page out of Dravid's book after the world cup --kept quiet and fiddled like Nero as Rome burned. While the world  (prodded by the sham of a coach's SMS and emails) castigated SRT, SG and others  for having played for money, contracts etc, and plotted to undermine Dravid, the great captain and fearless leader of men remained mum, letting his coplayers of 10+ years burn at the altar of public opinion while he decided that coming out and making a public statement dispelling such obvious lies would be the wrong thing to do.

Horror of horrors, that would be standing up against the BCCI, and his coach. Whats worse, it would mean developing a backbone and taking a stand

Yep, he did the honorable thing, toed the official line of coach and BCCI, didnt make an ass of himself, didnt sulk, played Mr. Goody 2 shoes --essentially lived up to his latent level of backbonelessness.

remember how SRT publicly asked people to calm down after those first two losses in WC 2003 and led the re guard action in that tournament ?

You forgot --it wasnt just SRT who did that.

SG and RD did the same too

If SG has done something like that and assured his full support to the team they might have done far better and enhanced his reputation.

He did assure the team of his full support. Its visible on tv, its there in numerous newspapers. If you didnt have tainted lenses, you would have seen that. 

But thats too much to ask for someone bent on his own agenda --  your posting pattern on this DG with respect to slander, lies, and unsusbtantiated facts wrt SG (along with running from the thread when confronted with evidence) is ample proof of that.

lol..now you are getting desperate. As per some other posters in these forums even RD took money. Irrespective of that there is a difference. In your earlier post you have agreed that it could have been handled more diplomatically and on the other hand you are portraying him as if some kind of hero and everyone else is a coward.  RD or AK at least did not grumble like him once they resigned from captaincy unlike others who took that as if their birthright!
you referring to all those shows you are not too different from others when it comes to defending your agenda.

my last word on this..if you still do not think that SG was not sulking but should have been more diplomatic I do not have any problems. From what I have read/seen obviously sulking is the right word to use and obviously you for you it does not.

[Cover Point]

ha ha ha ha ha

the look on SG's face said it all.

And these kolkatans are so scared of Delhi that they cant even hold any catches.

The Kolkatans may feel free to come to my team practice for some fielding drills! they need them!

Where is Chappel ka havaldar?

[kban1]

lol..now you are getting desperate. As per some other posters in these forums even RD took money.

Irrelevant what posters on this DG said.

The fact of the matter was that SRT and SG were being accused by media as well as BCCI whisper campaigns of undermining Rahul (duplicate power centers, they wanted to be captain, etc). Rahul as captain and leader needed to nip such idle talk and malicious slander in the bud, but he chose to keep quiet --that is what I referred to.

Irrespective of that there is a difference. In your earlier post you have agreed that it could have been handled more diplomatically and on the other hand you are portraying him as if some kind of hero and everyone else is a coward.

 

Wrong again.

I said he needed to handle the specific press conference dlee talked about with diplomacy and tact.

As far as expressing his opinion about multiple captaincy, I felt there was nothing wrong with it -- he was asked a question, he responded. That is not sulking, no matter how much you keep harping.

No contradiction at all.

RD or AK at least did not grumble like him once they resigned from captaincy unlike others who took that as if their birthright!

you referring to all those shows you are not too different from others when it comes to defending your agenda.

BS, nothing but misrepresentations

The change in KKR captaincy was not announced till 24 hrs prior to the start of the tourney. All the interviews about multiple captaincy that you are referring to as proof of his supposed grumbling happened earlier --when he was still captain or at least not removed from captaincy.

So your points have no legs to stand on.

my last word on this..if you still do not think that SG was not sulking but should have been more diplomatic I do not have any problems. From what I have read/seen obviously sulking is the right word to use and obviously you for you it does not.

Irrelevant -- Doesnt matter to me what you have problems with or not.

What would help is if you came to a debate with an awareness of the terms you choose to castigate people with --  that at least helps people take your opinions with a modicum of seriousness.

[justforkix]

Looks like Nana's luck finally ran out - had a terrible game yesterday. I see McGrath replacing him in the next game.

[keep-it-cool]

SG has been tried in the top four in 5 occasions this year with 2 out of 5 decent performances.

He has one good knock so far ...that 48 against RR. The 30 (24) he scored against Mumbai was woefully inadequate given the situation. In fact, he fed off the lesser bowlers in the PP - reached 20 (10) and once SRT brought Bhajji and Zaheer back, lost all momentum to score 10 in the next 14 balls. I would hardly classify that as a good knock. Maybe relative to the others in his own team ...but on any absolute standard that was not what the situation demanded.

LRS has been in the top four in ONE occasion scoring 13 of 13. Dont know what you are on about here but the regular top half of KKR has performed worst.

And that also became a big bone of contention out here ..why was he sent ahead of SG? I think the idea was correct ...to risk a less valuable wicket and hope for some quick runs and get the momentum behind you(Mumbai has done that a few times with Bhajji; KXIP tries that with Sunny Sohal). It did not work out in that game but the thought process was absolutely spot on.

I wanted Saha to open the innings. But Morne Wan Vyk was a masterstroke and with McCullum also gaining some form, my preferred line up for KKR here on would be:

McCullum
Morne Wan Vyk
Brad Hodge
Wriddhiman Saha
---------------------
---------------------
---------------------

I dont think the rest of the slots can be filled in right now. Like I suggested with VVS on the Deccan Chargers thread, SG should be a floater ...come in up the order only if KKR has lost a few quick wickets so that he can stabilise the batting. If the going is good, he should keep slipping down the order to allow those who can either strike hard from ball one (the likes of Saha, Shukla) or play the real long innings (such as Hodge) to build a total. Given their attack, this KKR side needs to put on atleast 20-25 runs more than what the par score would be in order to compete against most sides.

I sincerely hope they do this because I want them to win all their future matches. MI has already finished its quota with KKR

[keep-it-cool]

I dont believe Vettori has been benched after just one bad game!!!

I now think Delhi is overwhelmed with batsmen. They have to take a call and drop one of Warner, Devil & Dilshan once Veeru comes back and get Vettori back in the fray.

And, maybe, Yomahesh in place of Sangwan.