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[flute]

My vote is for BJP this time

This is to kickstart a debate afresh on Indian elections.
After much consideration, if I get to vote, I will vote for BJP. Below are the pros and cons of Congress and BJP as I see it. I never considered third front and so no comments on it.

Congress:
Pros:
1.This is not a pro in itself but rather in comparison with BJP, but personally the biggest plus point is its lack of idealogical hatred for any one community or region. Yes, it is opportunistic and yes it pursues divide and rule politics when it is advantageous, but at the national level, its agenda and its rhetoric is all-inclusive with a strong Indian identity as its historic identity.
2. Able capable administrators: Lets face it,the kinds of banana republicish behaviour of kandahar would not have happened under a congress rule, multiple accounts of that episode chronicle how the leaders were running around like headless chickens during that time. congress and its leaders simply has more experience in dealing with such matters.
3.Chidambaram: I used to like him earlier but after his new avatar as home minister, I love him. I have been paying very close attenton to his moves and I really like his grass roots level changes he is initiating in improving the professionalism, training and organization of internal security set up. BJP ( especially Advani) with all its rhetoric did not lift a finger in this regard even after 2001 attack or kandahar. If congress fails to make it, sadly India will lose services of Chidambharam

Cons:
1. Security: Inspite of Chidambaram, I think congress,manmohan and his govt. simply do not have the depth or vision required to appreciate the level of danger India is facing. We seem to simply float along without any strategic vision in foreign policy or security.
2.Mumbai attacks: THIS IS THE BIG ONE for me. Mumbai attacks, the way that whole operation was handled and the way India behave towards our security, the way we tried to outsource our security to US after the attacks etc. is simply unpardonable in my view. It is simply not acceptable and for this issue alone, this govt. and its partners should be punished harshly at the elections.
3.Corruption: while everyone is corrupt, this party seems to take it to the extreme and also systematically degrades the system as a whole. Election commissioner issue and Pratibha Patil issue are the prime example. This point again is itself enough to vote out UPA.


BJP
Pros:
1.Nationalistic agenda: Of all the parties, atleast in rhetoric, this seems to be the only party which seem to have India as the central theme with a RSS vision for the reawakening and resurge of Indian civilization. Of course that vision never gets transformed into reality and is largely rhetoric.
2.Economy: I am almost certain that economy and economic reforms will take center stage again if NDA comes back. A lot of good reform efforts were put on hold after UPA came to power inspite of having manmohan as the PM.
3.Possibility of action on defence: even if BJP is bad in dealing with systematic changes ( they seem to simply lack the depth of thinking in terms of systematic changes), I believe they will move several urgent defence related contracts and modernisation efforts.
4. Possibility of action on illegal immigrants: things are very very grave in eastern India, bangladeshis are simply changing the demographics in several areas and congress is blind to it. Advani as home minister did zilch in that regard earlier , but hopefully he will do something this time around since atleast BJP is the only party which supports action on that front.
5. foreign policy: I believe BJP will be more proactive in pursuing our interests and strategic vision within subcontinent and elsewhere, where congress failed miserably in the last 5 yrs.



Cons:
1. Divisive and hate filled politics: This is my biggest reservation against BJP. They equate hindu with India and replace action on security with hatred for a certain section of Indians.
2.Security: This is the biggest let down for me in terms of NDA's last term. Inspite of the rhetoric, they simply failed comprehensively on all fronts.
Starting with kandahar to the end, they simply failed to do anything substantial or long lasting. Advani lied out of his teeth about Kandahar and is still lying about it. Indian administration simply failed in preventing and dealing with kandahar, NSG was stuck in delhi traffic and was delayed in going to Amritsar and was also not able to reach promptly because of non-availability of aircraft. But, Advani did not lift a finger improve things after kandahar and we faced similar situation during mumbai attacks.
Based on my objective analysis of various issues, I think, unbelievably congress in fact has an edge over BJP regarding security.
Their muscular foreign policy is childish and is a testimony to how clueless they are about security and the steps required.
3. Modi: what if Advani dies in office? this is my worst fear about BJP.

With the above pros and cons, I still want BJP to come to office this time mainly because
1. Congress needs to be punished, there is too much stench and too much cynicism and corruption everywhere.
2. I hope BJP acts and acts fast atleast on defense and foreign policy initiatives to neutralize China and its string of pearls strategy to tie down India from all sides. Does anybody know that China is now about to begin on a pieline thru Burma to reduce dependence on Malacca Strait? this was one advantage India had over China in the event of war and that will be gone by 2013.

I am so frustated with Mnamohan and his inaction that I am willing to risk Modi's possibility too. I just hope they tone down on hatred and work for the greater good of whole of India and all Indians.

[dhruvdeepak]

well simple point on communalism and examples of it - BJPs manifesto talks about reservations by economic status vs Congress' reservations still based on caste/creed.

[dextrous]

well simple point on communalism and examples of it - BJPs manifesto talks about reservations by economic status vs Congress' reservations still based on caste/creed.

and congress is giving a ticket to a match-fixer!!! what does that say about what congress thinks about muslims? just bc a guy is muslim and well-known, muslims will vote for him?

[Dayal Baba]

note the pin-drop silence of the english media and almost all political parties on the black money in switzerland. fear of getting exposed perhaps?

[feverpitch]

note the pin-drop silence of the english media and almost all political parties on the black money in switzerland. fear of getting exposed perhaps?

why blame the Swiss when Mauritius, Maldives etc may be actually bigger havens....

[dextrous]

note the pin-drop silence of the english media and almost all political parties on the black money in switzerland. fear of getting exposed perhaps?

why blame the Swiss when Mauritius, Maldives etc may be actually bigger havens....

confusing the point?

[vincent]

Great anyaysis by Flute.

I would have voted for BJP if Vajpayee would be the PM candidate. Advani has no vision except for the temple. MMS is great as a person and as an economist, but is old and sick.Basically there are no eligible leaders or at least the ones who have chances of getting picked (e.g. Chidambaram, Nayudu).

Sad state for a country of Billion people.

[dextrous]

Great anyaysis by Flute.

I would have voted for BJP if Vajpayee would be the PM candidate. Advani has no vision except for the temple.

he does? is that why he's busy promoting the vision?

there's very little difference between advani, vajpayee, and manmohan's poltics

[flute]

Great anyaysis by Flute.

I would have voted for BJP if Vajpayee would be the PM candidate. Advani has no vision except for the temple. MMS is great as a person and as an economist, but is old and sick.Basically there are no eligible leaders or at least the ones who have chances of getting picked (e.g. Chidambaram, Nayudu).

Sad state for a country of Billion people.

vincent, thanks. Until mumbai attacks, my constant refrain to my friends was that "No Vajpayee, No BJP", but now, things are different. Eventhough I like some of Chidambaram's actions, I think on the whole, something drastic and proactive needs to be done for India's security and I dread another congress rule characterized by more illegal immigrations and another bout of sleeping at the wheel regarding security. BJP's track record on economy is also more progressive and more aggressive.

[vincent]

I agree with you on economy. But on Terrorism, their record is not better than that of UPA. Mumbai attack was shocking and should not have happened. But during NDA we had also many attacks : Kargill, Delhi Parliament, Kolkatta etc. But the worst humiliation was the surrender at Kandahar where among other things we also released a key terrorist who became the mastermind of 9/11.

[flute]

I agree with you on economy. But on Terrorism, their record is not better than that of UPA. Mumbai attack was shocking and should not have happened. But during NDA we had also many attacks : Kargill, Delhi Parliament, Kolkatta etc. But the worst humiliation was the surrender at Kandahar where among other things we also released a key terrorist who became the mastermind of 9/11.

totally agree with you on terrorism. As mentioned my views in my first post, I agree that congress's record is slightly better with regard to security compared to BJP, BUT my POV behind support for BJP right now is 1. Heads gotta role after mumbai, there should be electoral consequences for the mess up and the non-reaction after mumbai 2. hope that may be, just may be, BJP might improve upon things this time around after the learning experience of first term and also because their USP is about nationalism, security, tough on terror etc., atleast those electoral thetoric will force them to act tough.

heads gotta role because I want the country;s leaders to realize that you cannot ignore Indian security and indian lives and continue to win elections.

[12th_Man]

My biggest problem with BJP is, Why the F they did not stand side by govt during N deal? Something that had obvious signs of helping country. Why play politics when it comes to national interest? Communists agenda is understandable. But BJP whould have taken a better stand than put the country in a mid term crises.

[gouravk]

so punishment for congress is more important than national security in your opinion flute ?

[flute]

so punishment for congress is more important than national security in your opinion flute ?

gouravji, it is not about punishing congress, it is about setting security of Bharat as the electoral agenda. Democracy is about setting the agenda, once the politicos realize how serious citizens are about security, they will act, even mayawati will ensure security if she realises her support is based on security and law and order. Congress should lose as a negative reaction for mumbai, heads gotta role and then the political class will realize how they cannot go easy on security and indian lives and still win elections, they have to realize how their negative, narrow agenda will not work once they mess up on India's security. Two things will be achieved because of this, a. Congress realizes that they ignored security and hene lost elections b. BJP realizes that they will face electoral backlash if they too mess up.

Of course, in our divided, narrow agenda driven elections, that is a pipe dream. But, still I am talking particularly about my own single vote and I intend to set that agenda as far as possible with that single vote. It is really painful for me that even after something like mumbai where local, state and central security forces failed miserably in taking proactive and also reactive measures, where central govt. failed to take any effective action after the attacks, it is not a national electoral issue. As I see it, mumbai attacks are a continuation of the barbaric attacks on India thru khyber pass over the centuries ( only this time, they sent attackers over sea, but the attackers pretty much came from that region).

[vincent]

I read in Rediff that Bangalore's IT people do not want to vote saying that all politicians are corrupt. This is the wrong attitude of the educated people who could contribute to elect the right people and right parties. But the, if they see no choice available what would they do?

[flute]

I read in Rediff that Bangalore's IT people do not want to vote saying that all politicians are corrupt. This is the wrong attitude of the educated people who could contribute to elect the right people and right parties. But the, if they see no choice available what would they do?

India's poorest and illeterate voting junta is much better than these stupid educated democracy abstainers. No choice is no excuse. If they do not vote, they should not complain if banglore goes from bad to worse, no power, no roads, no public transporation and no police. Not voting is like giving the country on a platter to corrupt people to mess around with.

[dextrous]

I read in Rediff that Bangalore's IT people do not want to vote saying that all politicians are corrupt. This is the wrong attitude of the educated people who could contribute to elect the right people and right parties. But the, if they see no choice available what would they do?

run

[gouravk]

but based on your pros and cons in the first post you seem to suggest that the congress scores over the bjp on the security issue. i am confused by your thought process. is security the number one priority for you or not ?

[flute]

but based on your pros and cons in the first post you seem to suggest that the congress scores over the bjp on the security issue. i am confused by your thought process. is security the number one priority for you or not ?

IMO, congress has slight edge in tackling internal crisis sitaution, internal security etc. primarily because of presence of able, experienced leaders like chidambaram etc.  but they do it only when they need it. but there other aspects to security like defense , where congress sucks and NDA did exceedingly well. foreign policy again vajpayee was superlative compared to rudderless, directionless MS govt.

[CLR James]

This has been a topic in some circles of political science for some time. I think everyone should have five votes. Look at Flute's analysis posted above. He lists pros and cons, but ultimately it comes down to one vote that can be rendered to only one party. There is no way to punish the party one supports for not doing well in one or two issues. That is, a 3-2 split or even a 3-1-1 split. The partial support would not be a tokenism because it would add up. More than anything, it would reduce single issue voting and compel parties to clean up their acts because they would know that they can be punished, even slightly, by their own supporters. It would also reduce, and hopefully make redundant, the culture of vote buying.

[keep-it-cool]

but based on your pros and cons in the first post you seem to suggest that the congress scores over the bjp on the security issue. i am confused by your thought process. is security the number one priority for you or not ?

IMO, congress has slight edge in tackling internal crisis sitaution, internal security etc. primarily because of presence of able, experienced leaders like chidambaram etc.  but they do it only when they need it. but there other aspects to security like defense , where congress sucks and NDA did exceedingly well. foreign policy again vajpayee was superlative compared to rudderless, directionless MS govt.

foreign policy? in what way? can you elaborate?

[flute]

but based on your pros and cons in the first post you seem to suggest that the congress scores over the bjp on the security issue. i am confused by your thought process. is security the number one priority for you or not ?

IMO, congress has slight edge in tackling internal crisis sitaution, internal security etc. primarily because of presence of able, experienced leaders like chidambaram etc.  but they do it only when they need it. but there other aspects to security like defense , where congress sucks and NDA did exceedingly well. foreign policy again vajpayee was superlative compared to rudderless, directionless MS govt.

foreign policy? in what way? can you elaborate?

I will list out a few achievements of Vajpayee/NDA in foreign policy

1. Congress completely ignored Isreal for 4 decades before NDA started relations with Isreal and initiated close ties in military relations. It is not a mere coincidence that our good relations with Isreal coincided with the good phase in our relations with USA. This particular move was looong pending and was an obvious move to give us strategic depth in dealing with Pak. Congress failed us spectacularly in this regard for 4 decades. Today, India is about to launch our most sophisticated spy satellite ( with great help from Isreal) giving eyes and ears in the space to our armed forces and air force. This single thing could prevent mumbai like attacks becaue now we can watch even a small boat thru the clouds 24/7.

On the contrary, UPA simply failed to move this relationship with Isreal forward. well, atleast MS maintained statusquo without rollingback ( wihch was initially feared when UPA came to power).

2. Look East policy: This idea took shape during PV's time, Vajpayee took this forward and also improved our relations with Vietnam a bit. The next step was to deepen our relations with Vietnam and do unto China what it is doing to us by coddling with SL,Pak,Bangladesh etc.. By some accounts Vajpayee was also about to move on our relations with Taiwan but could not muster enough spunk to do it.

3. Iran: NDA was simply brilliant in managing and balancing our relations between Iran and USA. Vajpayee had special rapport with Iran and it was brilliant strategy to keep warm relations with Iran and Afganistan which UPA messed up with a single vote in UN.

4. kazakhstan  air force base: For the first time in independent India, NDA govt. moved on having a dedicated permanent air force base outside India with help from Russia. If we move forward on this, this can be a great asset in responding to any challenges in Afganistan/pak region. This base is now operational but again, there is no proactive movement on this after NDA left office.

5. USA: Vajpayee moved forward on relations with USA while balancing our relations with other countries. MS's singularly focused on USA and nothing else. We voted against Iran in UN and now USA is no longer so smitten by India , now that Bush left office. MS could have easily used coalition govt., muslim support etc. to say no to USA on Iran.

6. Naval exercises: Again, for the first time , indian navy held unilateral and bilateral naval exercises in south China sea to challenge China just like they do in Indian ocean. We performed joint naval exercises with Vietnam and South Korea again with a view to give back to China what they are giving us.

7.Burma: Vajpayee reversed previous congress's head in the sand approach with regard to Burma and moved forward with our relations putting aside democracy and other moral standing to neutralize China's menacing presence and strategic depth with Burma. We are anyway late by atleast a decade still we are trying to compete with China in getting a share of burma's oil/gas reserves without much succes. Again, UPA failed to proactively move forward on this.

There are many more such areas in foreign policy where MS failed spectacularly. Vajpayee had great vision and ambition in foreign policy which MS lacked IMO.

[12th_Man]

FP of BJP was BS. Only  good thing they did was getting close to US keeping Russia not very angr. Recently China seems to beinfluencing Russia more against India -US ally. Something I don't  understand how will they patch up. This also has give Pak chances to get closer to Russia with China help. The latest rebuttal of senior US officals by Pak guys was a big step in their approach towards the coming years.
 Congress has a far matured FP than BJP and should come back to power at national level IMO.

[flute]

FP of BJP was BS. Only  good thing they did was getting close to US keeping Russia not very angr. Recently China seems to beinfluencing Russia more against India -US ally. Something I don't  understand how will they patch up. This also has give Pak chances to get closer to Russia with China help. The latest rebuttal of senior US officals by Pak guys was a big step in their approach towards the coming years.
 Congress has a far matured FP than BJP and should come back to power at national level IMO.

elaborate my friend..simply BSing is easy. I gave a detailed list of positive things they did, you are not leaving much room for discussion by simply saying , their FP is BS.

[12th_Man]

To elaborate, I will have to get my thoughts together. Will post in time. But will be on the same lines.
It was very hard for me to get away from BJP because of family ties. MMJoshi  were my in law side family friends. Thus had to take a brave stand.  . My cousin is/was very active  in MP congress held some decent positions at state level, I lived with him for 4.5 years in MP during MLVohra regime(same town). Now since DV singh, He has taken a low profile. This self exhibition is for the reason that i agree all parties are similar and most people associate with them for ensuring they are powerful unless you reach a position where you start thinking about country. One reason I have praised Communist leaders . They are not too worried about stengun guards. How many communist leaders really have a high profiled security? Stories of mediocrity of George Fernandis (socialist-unionist- kindof goes with communist )  and Prakash Karat's simplicity are well known.

however when you look what they say :
Prakash Karat told an election rally in Agartala on April 5 that it was 'thousand per cent confirmed' that the Third Front would form the government in Delhi [Images] after the Lok Sabha polls.    ( source rediff)
You know how truthful this is.

While I understand getting back vision leaders like ABVajpayee are difficult to find. But he may not have the similar financial vision as MMS. Equating them on FPolicy is not the best comparison.
I don't see anybody in BJP as of now to carry forward the country. Modi is the only one who IMO can   govern the country in a way country needs. But with his name, a section  has brick bats ready.
I see Pranab M, Chidambaram, Sonia ,MMS, Rahul etc some people with sane mind to carry country forward. The party is not a single man show.  While i can name others but these are few I admire. On a personal note.

[LosingNow]

I lived with him for 4.5 years in MP during MLVohra regime(same town).

hmm... you from Durg? and then moved to Hyd?

[flute]

While I understand getting back vision leaders like ABVajpayee are difficult to find. But he may not have the similar financial vision as MMS. Equating them on FPolicy is not the best comparison.

a question was asked clearly about FP and so the comparison between NDA & UPA, between MS & Vajpayee regarding FP is inevitable.
As for financial vision, beg to differ. NDA did much much better in economic reforms and on economy compared to MS's team. MS, inspite of being a great economist, allowed bankrupt ideas like employment guarantee scheme etc. resulting in huge corruption and drain on finances.
MS, in stark contrast with vajpayee, did absolutely nothing regarding infrastructure projects, he failed to atleast carry forward BJP's national highway mission. If nothing else matters, Vajpayee's national highway network alone is enough to thank him for generations to come. He laid more roads in 5 yrs than what was laid during entire history of Independent India.

Above is not to say that I do not have respect for MS. In fact, it is probably India's thousands of yrs good karma that allowed us to have such great peopel like PV, Vajpayee & MS at a critical juncture inspite of the general politics being so corrupt and so rotten. Think about it, what if someone like mayawati or pawar comes into that position? MS atleast is a decent person and he worked within his limits and I am thankful for the same. But, truth be told, his performance as PM is no where near Vajpayee's performance. My single vote is going towards NDA also because of the hope that somehow people in BJP will carry forward atleast some of previous NDA policies namely 1. infrastructure 2. economy 3. FP 4. Defense. If NDA/Advani learns their lesson and does things differently in improving internal security set up and systems and makes India safe, that did be a bonus.

I don't see anybody in BJP as of now to carry forward the country. Modi is the only one who IMO can   govern the country in a way country needs. But with his name, a section  has brick bats ready.

India is too great a country and too great a civilization to let a monster like Modi occupy the same seat that people like Ashoka, Akbar, Nehru occupied. It did be a sad day if it happens. Aurangzeb did rule India but that was inspite of people's will. Enuf said.

I see Pranab M, Chidambaram, Sonia ,MMS, Rahul etc some people with sane mind to carry country forward. The party is not a single man show.  While i can name others but these are few I admire. On a personal note.

agreed mostly. I too have respect and appreciation for Chidambaram,  MS, Sonia, Pranab, Priyanka & Rahul in that order. Nobody realises but Sonia in fact conducted herself with dignity, grace and great commonsense. I do respect her for that. On the whole, this bunch kept India on a good path although more could have been done.

But, as I said, I am still seething with anger over mumbai attacks, heads gotta role. Everyone from MS to local constable should be held accountable for the attacks and the aftermath. MS,Sonia, Rahul, whole congress  failed to provide any leadership after mumbai attacks, they failed in even giving a promise that the perpetrators will be hunted down. The same guy who planned the whole mumbai attacks is supposed to have infiltrated into kashmir recently. I waited and waited and waited for 4 months for some long lasting action/reaction after mumbai and except chidambharam's certain systematic changes, nothing changed, they dared to tell me that they scored a great victory in forcing pak to accept origin of terrorism. That was the last straw. Enough is enough. This cannot be tolerated, congress has to be kicked out for this.