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[Libran]

With a total of 131 runs since he returned from injury with only two scores of 20+ and 6 scores in single digits, he averages 18.71 in the last 10 innings.

Could have been worse but for some 'not -out' innings of 38,16 and 5.

What is the benchmark set for him and how does he compare with players in the same genre ??

Here are his scores since the SL series upto the Kotla match against Eng

38* , 13, 1, 46 , 16*,8 , 5*, 0, 0 , 4

[arjun]

I think Raina will eventually replace Kaif.

[keep-it-cool]

Ravi, did you see the RCA XI v/s England match?

[justforkix]

Of course not. Let us drop this classless, useless and strokeless batsman immediately 

[Libran]

Ravi, did you see the RCA XI v/s England match?

ODI's mate ...International matches.....not local practice matches...Not sure if RCA XI v Eng would even qualify for a FC status


One should take jfk's advice seriously....he needs to be dropped.....

[keep-it-cool]

Ravi, did you see the RCA XI v/s England match?

ODI's mate ...International matches.....not local practice matches...Not sure if RCA XI v Eng would even qualify for a FC status


One should take jfk's advice seriously....he needs to be dropped.....

That is the reason I asked whether you actually "saw" the match ... not read about it ... it was as competitive as any international match ... and Kaif did a great job. To me, he is one of the names I pencil in among the certainties before I get on to the fringe players.

[Libran]

Ravi, did you see the RCA XI v/s England match?

ODI's mate ...International matches.....not local practice matches...Not sure if RCA XI v Eng would even qualify for a FC status


One should take jfk's advice seriously....he needs to be dropped.....

That is the reason I asked whether you actually "saw" the match ... not read about it ... it was as competitive as any international match ... and Kaif did a great job. To me, he is one of the names I pencil in among the certainties before I get on to the fringe players.

Most matches in the local league levels are also competitive. That does not mean much....Let's be realistic. Kaif's innings which have added value are very few and far between. Except for the Natwest and an innings of 111 against Eng, nothing else comes to mind. And his recent failures are one too many. If we aremoving towards a phase of intolerance for small failures, should it not apply to all and sundry.....not just handpicked players to suit the whims and fancies of a pseudo- jingoistic set of people

[justforkix]

One should take jfk's advice seriously....he needs to be dropped.....

I hope you did realize that I was being sarcastic !!!!

BTW, do you know what Kaif's average is for 10 innings prior to the 10 inning slab that you quoted : It is 63.86 !!!!!

Kaif's innings which have added value are very few and far between. Except for the Natwest and an innings of 111 against Eng, nothing else comes to mind. And his recent failures are one too many.

That reflects on your poor memory. Nothing else. Just because you don't remember, Kaif doesen't become a crap player !!!!

[sudzz]

Ok there are two questions here

One is whether he deserves to be in the team? Well at this point in time does not deserve, but then does he merit selection on ability yes he does

Should be dropped now is the other question: the answer is no he should not be because he has to be given just a little more rope maybe another two matches or so at best and if he does not come good he should be dropped.

He is surely not strokeless but lot less classy than most others. I also feel the place for him to bat at is # 3 and RD should come in at #4. I know he is technically unsound so high up but with his running between the wickets and inclination to score in ones and twos he can add value there.

[Sahir]

The match-winning performance of Kaif's that always comes to my mind is the catch he took in that historic Karachi ODI where Pakistan were all set to chase 350.  Pakistan required something like 9 off 8 or thereabouts at the time with 4 wickets in hand and Malik was at the crease with Moin; Malik skied one-- had it landed, it was two runs and the match was as good as over, the ball seemed destined to landing in no-man's land and Badani and Kaif were both going for the ball desperately.  It was actually closer to Badani, but Kaif swooped in out of nowhere to take a blinder and somehow managed to barely avoid what would have been a horrendous collision.  Being the first match of such a huge tour of Pakistan after 15 years, things could have been so different had that one gone down.  That entire tour is full of great memories...unfortunately, the Karachi ODI seems to have been removed off video.google-- here's a link to the very exciting 4th ODI at Lahore:
<a href="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=3370853162068018736" target="_blank">http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=3370853162068018736</a>

[keep-it-cool]

Ravi, did you see the RCA XI v/s England match?

ODI's mate ...International matches.....not local practice matches...Not sure if RCA XI v Eng would even qualify for a FC status


One should take jfk's advice seriously....he needs to be dropped.....

That is the reason I asked whether you actually "saw" the match ... not read about it ... it was as competitive as any international match ... and Kaif did a great job. To me, he is one of the names I pencil in among the certainties before I get on to the fringe players.

Most matches in the local league levels are also competitive. That does not mean much....Let's be realistic. Kaif's innings which have added value are very few and far between. Except for the Natwest and an innings of 111 against Eng, nothing else comes to mind. And his recent failures are one too many. If we aremoving towards a phase of intolerance for small failures, should it not apply to all and sundry.....not just handpicked players to suit the whims and fancies of a pseudo- jingoistic set of people

Well, some observations Ravi

a) I presume you can comprehend the difference between a local league match and a match with an England side – ability to score in a competitive match against England scores higher in my books than in a local league match (maybe you have different ideas)

b) I cannot quite figure out where you got this impression that we are moving towards “a phase of intolerance for small failures”. Read: HS, VS, GG, SRT, AA – I cannot see any intolerance anywhere! If you are talking about SG, then we need to redefine “small”. So that “IF” is really hypothetical, in my view

It really is funny how a lot of folks have shifting targets - first it is player A, then he does well .. so, move on to Player B, then he does well too, simple .. move on to player C. All to what end? Maybe I know the answer ... but it still does not work out, does it??

[keep-it-cool]

The match-winning performance of Kaif's that always comes to my mind is the catch he took in that historic Karachi ODI where Pakistan were all set to chase 350.  Pakistan required something like 9 off 8 or thereabouts at the time with 4 wickets in hand and Malik was at the crease with Moin; Malik skied one-- had it landed, it was two runs and the match was as good as over, the ball seemed destined to landing in no-man's land and Badani and Kaif were both going for the ball desperately.  It was actually closer to Badani, but Kaif swooped in out of nowhere to take a blinder and somehow managed to barely avoid what would have been a horrendous collision.  Being the first match of such a huge tour of Pakistan after 15 years, things could have been so different had that one gone down.  That entire tour is full of great memories...unfortunately, the Karachi ODI seems to have been removed off video.google-- here's a link to the very exciting 4th ODI at Lahore:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3370853162068018736&q=samsung+ODI&pl=true

Nail on the Head, Sahir ... great catch to help win a great match!

[Libran]

The match-winning performance of Kaif's that always comes to my mind is the catch he took in that historic Karachi ODI where Pakistan were all set to chase 350.  Pakistan required something like 9 off 8 or thereabouts at the time with 4 wickets in hand and Malik was at the crease with Moin; Malik skied one-- had it landed, it was two runs and the match was as good as over, the ball seemed destined to landing in no-man's land and Badani and Kaif were both going for the ball desperately.  It was actually closer to Badani, but Kaif swooped in out of nowhere to take a blinder and somehow managed to barely avoid what would have been a horrendous collision.  Being the first match of such a huge tour of Pakistan after 15 years, things could have been so different had that one gone down.  That entire tour is full of great memories...unfortunately, the Karachi ODI seems to have been removed off video.google-- here's a link to the very exciting 4th ODI at Lahore:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3370853162068018736&q=samsung+ODI&pl=true

Can't disagree on this one....but one swallow does not a summer make !!! his fielding is great....He was in the form of his life in the tour of SL and Zimbabwe.....after that it is nothing to write home about...My question is on the parameters being used to judge players

[Sahir]

Ravi,
yeah...I just brought that up because the great memory crossed my mind and brought a smile to my face, so thought I'd share...

[Libran]

Ravi, did you see the RCA XI v/s England match?

ODI's mate ...International matches.....not local practice matches...Not sure if RCA XI v Eng would even qualify for a FC status


One should take jfk's advice seriously....he needs to be dropped.....

That is the reason I asked whether you actually "saw" the match ... not read about it ... it was as competitive as any international match ... and Kaif did a great job. To me, he is one of the names I pencil in among the certainties before I get on to the fringe players.

Most matches in the local league levels are also competitive. That does not mean much....Let's be realistic. Kaif's innings which have added value are very few and far between. Except for the Natwest and an innings of 111 against Eng, nothing else comes to mind. And his recent failures are one too many. If we aremoving towards a phase of intolerance for small failures, should it not apply to all and sundry.....not just handpicked players to suit the whims and fancies of a pseudo- jingoistic set of people

Well, some observations Ravi

a) I presume you can comprehend the difference between a local league match and a match with an England side – ability to score in a competitive match against England scores higher in my books than in a local league match (maybe you have different ideas)

b) I cannot quite figure out where you got this impression that we are moving towards “a phase of intolerance for small failures”. Read: HS, VS, GG, SRT, AA – I cannot see any intolerance anywhere! If you are talking about SG, then we need to redefine “small”. So that “IF” is really hypothetical, in my view

It really is funny how a lot of folks have shifting targets - first it is player A, then he does well .. so, move on to Player B, then he does well too, simple .. move on to player C. All to what end? Maybe I know the answer ... but it still does not work out, does it??

Before I started this thread, I compared the statsitics of VS, RD, SRT, Kaif, YS and SG.....YS is way ahead of the rest because of his recent performances. RD has been as consitent as ever. SG is not in contention. SRT is currently not in the picture and enough has been said about him.The Damocles word is hanging on VS's head from what I have been reading of late. Raina is too new to be discussed. We have nothing to say about Dhoni. GG is a compromise candidate.

And Kaif has been touted as a great middle order bat but has been performing rather insipidly in the last few games.

So is there anything wrong in picking him up for a discussion. There is no need to read between the lines when there are none. Take the last 10 innings and you will know the truth. And why 10...because 10 is a reasonable sample for ODIs. the 10 before that may have been great. But the earlier innings have been nothing stupendous. In my view, the latest the sample, the better the quality of analysis

[Blwe_torch]

Ravi is correct. The same performance benchmark standards must be applied to all.
What Kaif's average was before 10 matches, is less relevant than his current average.
However, I am a Kaif fan, I would like to see him play a major role in India's team beyond 2007, including Yuvraj, Harbhajan, etc.

[Libran]

And kic...just to add...I have definitely supported SG...not for his performance but did not like the way he was treated.

With an average of 22 in the last eight innings that hehas played from the time he came back from the ban...he does not deserve a place....and similarly with an average of 17 in the last 10 innings since he came back from injury, Kaif scores poorly over SG also...given that Kaif has had more opportunities than SG on flat tracks in India and Pakistan.

I am not suggesting that Kaif be replaced with SG....I would rather that the Committee looks at Badani ( an equally outstanding fielder to boot) or Vidyut ( who is also an excellent fielder and can also bowl)

[avinashgodkhindi]

I am a little surprised by ravi's comment. I read it as follows "Selectors and Ganuly bashers have been grossly unfair to Dada. I make it my point to make sure that we try and be unfair to everyone. Lets start whose out of form at this moment... VS and Kaif, dump thhem, after another 5 ODI's whose done nothing.... Raina dump him".

Ravi in my opinion the way the selectors and GC have handled the SG issue and the speed at which dada was dropped was incorrect. But why do you wish to see others also suffer the same fate. And byt he way why is the whole universe so merciful on Mr. raina. He is has played more than a dozen ODIs and so far not even a single 50!!!

class  mat  inns  no  runs  hs  ave  bf  sr  100  50  4s  6s  ct  st
ODIs   14   7   2   148   39*   29.60   184   80.43   0   0   19   0   5   0


I think we a re all having too much of a soft corner for youngsters and bacche hein sekhenge. wel do that at home chocolate boy, not in intl. cricket.
See I have always supported giving youngsters a long run and I wish riana succeeds and I know he deserves more chances, maybe in the top 4. But if we really are getting so fussy, why not look at raina, what makes us beleive in a youngster more than a past proven performer like Kaif?

I think right now, the 1st player who should be dropped is VS. Next GG. then Raina, then Kaif.

I am big big fan of badani too, I believe he is streets ahead of gavsakar jnr, Mongia,sriram  etc. he defiently deserves to be in the 15 if not the 11. But don't for heaven's sake start pulling very player bcoz of the unfair treatment dada was metted with. Wwe atleast don't want that

[justforkix]

Avinash : EGGXACTLY. very well said. 2 wrongs don't make it right. Just because SG was treated unfairly, if we decide to start treating every player that way, then that will only destroy the Indian team.

[achutank]

ravi i agree with kic here.

the rca match was a very classy knock. and the right time. and of course his fielding was there as usual. no he deserves a good run in both forms.

[Libran]

I am a little surprised by ravi's comment. I read it as follows "Selectors and Ganuly bashers have been grossly unfair to Dada. I make it my point to make sure that we try and be unfair to everyone. Lets start whose out of form at this moment... VS and Kaif, dump thhem, after another 5 ODI's whose done nothing.... Raina dump him".

Ravi in my opinion the way the selectors and GC have handled the SG issue and the speed at which dada was dropped was incorrect. But why do you wish to see others also suffer the same fate. And byt he way why is the whole universe so merciful on Mr. raina. He is has played more than a dozen ODIs and so far not even a single 50!!!

class  mat  inns  no  runs  hs  ave  bf  sr  100  50  4s  6s  ct  st
ODIs   14   7   2   148   39*   29.60   184   80.43   0   0   19   0   5   0


I think we a re all having too much of a soft corner for youngsters and bacche hein sekhenge. wel do that at home chocolate boy, not in intl. cricket.
See I have always supported giving youngsters a long run and I wish riana succeeds and I know he deserves more chances, maybe in the top 4. But if we really are getting so fussy, why not look at raina, what makes us beleive in a youngster more than a past proven performer like Kaif?

I think right now, the 1st player who should be dropped is VS. Next GG. then Raina, then Kaif.

I am big big fan of badani too, I believe he is streets ahead of gavsakar jnr, Mongia,sriram  etc. he defiently deserves to be in the 15 if not the 11. But don't for heaven's sake start pulling very player bcoz of the unfair treatment dada was metted with. Wwe atleast don't want that

Where have I ever said that this should be a tit for tat....I clearly mentioned that I did not support SG on the performance front. And if he can be shown the door why not anyone else. On current form and performance, Kaif seems to be the next in line. 12 innings is short for a new comer.It takes a few matches before they get their bearing right. Kaif is not a new comer by any stretch of imagination.

My support comes on the way he was treated and not for his retention in the team.

[arjun]

Ravi, Ganguly is unique. He is our favourite punching bag. He is where all the bucks stop. If price of onions have gone up in Chennai, blame him. If India have not yet sat at the G-8 table, it is because of him.( if I remember correctly, Harsha had constructed a theory in that general direction).

Other players are mere kids in bibs. They are there to be cuddled.

[avinashgodkhindi]

ravi and arjun

U may not have been fully aware but even I was/am not happy with the way ganguly was judged and defiently not happy the way he was treated. I have mentioend this in posts repeatedly that given that SRT is out and VS is so woefully out of form SG deserves a chance in this series and given proper backing and confidence. He was and is ( in my opinion) an outright match winner in ODIs easily our 2nd best player after SRT and in 2000,2001 for sometime he was outperforming SRT regularly. So there is no doubt in my mind that before coming to the conclusion that many have the SG is finsihed, we must give him proper chances and BACKING. The last part is absolutely imp. one cannot be expected to perform with a sword hanging over his/her neck all the time.

But I don't think this way of chucking players out is correct at all. If u guys remember the biggest change which SG brought to Indian cricket was the way he used to back his players, whether they were performing or not; whether they were fit or not.... anything. He backed them to the hilt and thats defiently the way a team should work,s pecially when its such a team facing huge pressure.

So all I am saying is that whether dada is in side or not, don't demand that all the good things he brought to indian cricket should always be killed. Don't make demands that would diminsh dada's legacy. This chopping and changing is crazy, the guys that need to dropped is VS ( totally unfit) and GG ( out of sorts). I would still give GG two more games and see if he can come up with something useful

[Libran]

ravi and arjun

U may not have been fully aware but even I was/am not happy with the way ganguly was judged and defiently not happy the way he was treated. I have mentioend this in posts repeatedly that given that SRT is out and VS is so woefully out of form SG deserves a chance in this series and given proper backing and confidence. He was and is ( in my opinion) an outright match winner in ODIs easily our 2nd best player after SRT and in 2000,2001 for sometime he was outperforming SRT regularly. So there is no doubt in my mind that before coming to the conclusion that many have the SG is finsihed, we must give him proper chances and BACKING. The last part is absolutely imp. one cannot be expected to perform with a sword hanging over his/her neck all the time.

But I don't think this way of chucking players out is correct at all. If u guys remember the biggest change which SG brought to Indian cricket was the way he used to back his players, whether they were performing or not; whether they were fit or not.... anything. He backed them to the hilt and thats defiently the way a team should work,s pecially when its such a team facing huge pressure.

So all I am saying is that whether dada is in side or not, don't demand that all the good things he brought to indian cricket should always be killed. Don't make demands that would diminsh dada's legacy. This chopping and changing is crazy, the guys that need to dropped is VS ( totally unfit) and GG ( out of sorts). I would still give GG two more games and see if he can come up with something useful

Good post Avinash...But, on the last part , i would not agree. This is where we are making mistakes. when a guy realizes that there is fire under his seat, he would come up with a decent performance and then bask in the glory of that for the next few matches. Not only is a place blocked and yields no returns, the guys waiting in the wings also get frustrated.GG has been given enough and more chances and if the management is not able to identify if he fits in to the ODI scheme of things...then either they  are myopic or have a hidden agenda. With VS , I would still take a chance as he is a proven match winner....and going by GC's fancy statements , some guys deserve a longer tenure (except SG)

[achutank]

suppose we drop GG and SG is not taken for whatever reason, who do we take in his stead? WJdoes not seem like an ODI guy at all.but thats imo am sure he can score lustily if he wants, or someone like raina can open the innings? or rayadu or rao for example? forgive my ignorance here but are there any decent openers at all in india other than vs,gg, ac, wj?

[keep-it-cool]

Ravi, did you see the RCA XI v/s England match?

ODI's mate ...International matches.....not local practice matches...Not sure if RCA XI v Eng would even qualify for a FC status


One should take jfk's advice seriously....he needs to be dropped.....

That is the reason I asked whether you actually "saw" the match ... not read about it ... it was as competitive as any international match ... and Kaif did a great job. To me, he is one of the names I pencil in among the certainties before I get on to the fringe players.

Most matches in the local league levels are also competitive. That does not mean much....Let's be realistic. Kaif's innings which have added value are very few and far between. Except for the Natwest and an innings of 111 against Eng, nothing else comes to mind. And his recent failures are one too many. If we aremoving towards a phase of intolerance for small failures, should it not apply to all and sundry.....not just handpicked players to suit the whims and fancies of a pseudo- jingoistic set of people

Well, some observations Ravi

a) I presume you can comprehend the difference between a local league match and a match with an England side – ability to score in a competitive match against England scores higher in my books than in a local league match (maybe you have different ideas)

b) I cannot quite figure out where you got this impression that we are moving towards “a phase of intolerance for small failures”. Read: HS, VS, GG, SRT, AA – I cannot see any intolerance anywhere! If you are talking about SG, then we need to redefine “small”. So that “IF” is really hypothetical, in my view

It really is funny how a lot of folks have shifting targets - first it is player A, then he does well .. so, move on to Player B, then he does well too, simple .. move on to player C. All to what end? Maybe I know the answer ... but it still does not work out, does it??

Before I started this thread, I compared the statsitics of VS, RD, SRT, Kaif, YS and SG.....YS is way ahead of the rest because of his recent performances. RD has been as consitent as ever. SG is not in contention. SRT is currently not in the picture and enough has been said about him.The Damocles word is hanging on VS's head from what I have been reading of late. Raina is too new to be discussed. We have nothing to say about Dhoni. GG is a compromise candidate.

And Kaif has been touted as a great middle order bat but has been performing rather insipidly in the last few games.

So is there anything wrong in picking him up for a discussion. There is no need to read between the lines when there are none. Take the last 10 innings and you will know the truth. And why 10...because 10 is a reasonable sample for ODIs. the 10 before that may have been great. But the earlier innings have been nothing stupendous. In my view, the latest the sample, the better the quality of analysis

Ravi, let us pass on what is a reasonable sample size; it will get us nowhere.

I still do not get why the RCA XI match score should not be considered ... after all it was one of the recent performances against a good attack (Kabir Ali, Anderson, Plunkett, Ian Blackwell, Collingwood) and played in the right competitive spirit.

Now, on the scores that you collated, some context would also be useful in making a call. As I remember it, MK came back towards the end of the SL series.

Against SL (mind you the only matches where he batted on "flat" Indian wickets)
6th ODI - played the sheet anchor role as YS went ballistic - scored 38 no, coming in at 57/2 and staying till the victory target of 197 was achieved
7th ODI - failed with just 13 runs scored

Against SA (flat batting tracks for sides batting second; both sides struggled batting first)
1st ODI - failed (India batted first), scored just 1
2nd ODI - Did not Bat (India batted second) - lost an opportunity on "flat" batting conditions
3rd ODI - 46 (India batted first) - held innings together after entire top order collapsed in difficult batting conditions
4th ODI - 16 not out (India batted second) - stayed there till India won

Against Pak (flat batting wickets)
1st ODI - 8 (is this a failure? NO, in my view) got out slogging in the 50th over, 2 balls to spare
2nd ODI - 5 not out - stayed till India won the match
3rd ODI - 0 (failed)
4th ODI - 0 (failed)
5th ODI - Did not bat

Against England (excluding the RCA XI knock)
1st ODI - 4 (is this a failure?) run out ... unlucky that bat lifted after getting in the crease

So, I count that as 4 failures in the past 10 innings ... not an extraordinary record, I admit, but does not look as bad as those numbers looked without the reference to context

[achutank]

my funda is drop the stats for the moment. look at the attitude. far better than most in the team. only RD in the current team to my mind has better grit. hs and IP come after kaif in the grit area.

[keep-it-cool]

my funda is drop the stats for the moment. look at the attitude. far better than most in the team. only RD in the current team to my mind has better grit. hs and IP come after kaif in the grit area.

for once achu, we agree! Great is the gent who managed to bridge this wide gap! Hail Kaifuu

[dhruvdeepak]

my funda is drop the stats for the moment. look at the attitude. far better than most in the team. only RD in the current team to my mind has better grit. hs and IP come after kaif in the grit area.

absolutely agree with you on this, sir. well put. contextual analysis is so much more valuable than raw stats.

[achutank]

my funda is drop the stats for the moment. look at the attitude. far better than most in the team. only RD in the current team to my mind has better grit. hs and IP come after kaif in the grit area.

for once achu, we agree! Great is the gent who managed to bridge this wide gap! Hail Kaifuu

don't you also think salma hayek is one great broad? there we agreed again.

[keep-it-cool]

my funda is drop the stats for the moment. look at the attitude. far better than most in the team. only RD in the current team to my mind has better grit. hs and IP come after kaif in the grit area.

for once achu, we agree! Great is the gent who managed to bridge this wide gap! Hail Kaifuu

don't you also think salma hayek is one great broad? there we agreed again.

Agree Achu ... the only question is who gets the credit for this one?

[dhruvdeepak]

my funda is drop the stats for the moment. look at the attitude. far better than most in the team. only RD in the current team to my mind has better grit. hs and IP come after kaif in the grit area.

for once achu, we agree! Great is the gent who managed to bridge this wide gap! Hail Kaifuu

don't you also think salma hayek is one great broad? there we agreed again.

Agree Achu ... the only question is who gets the credit for this one?

salma hayek's parents obviously

[dhruvdeepak]

pic of Salma.
Caution---you'll like it

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=1904.new#new

[achutank]

kaun banega is salma ka balma?   

[achutank]

hai. yeh kiski bistar ke shaan hai?

[Libran]

Ravi, did you see the RCA XI v/s England match?

ODI's mate ...International matches.....not local practice matches...Not sure if RCA XI v Eng would even qualify for a FC status


One should take jfk's advice seriously....he needs to be dropped.....

That is the reason I asked whether you actually "saw" the match ... not read about it ... it was as competitive as any international match ... and Kaif did a great job. To me, he is one of the names I pencil in among the certainties before I get on to the fringe players.

Most matches in the local league levels are also competitive. That does not mean much....Let's be realistic. Kaif's innings which have added value are very few and far between. Except for the Natwest and an innings of 111 against Eng, nothing else comes to mind. And his recent failures are one too many. If we aremoving towards a phase of intolerance for small failures, should it not apply to all and sundry.....not just handpicked players to suit the whims and fancies of a pseudo- jingoistic set of people

Well, some observations Ravi

a) I presume you can comprehend the difference between a local league match and a match with an England side – ability to score in a competitive match against England scores higher in my books than in a local league match (maybe you have different ideas)

b) I cannot quite figure out where you got this impression that we are moving towards “a phase of intolerance for small failures”. Read: HS, VS, GG, SRT, AA – I cannot see any intolerance anywhere! If you are talking about SG, then we need to redefine “small”. So that “IF” is really hypothetical, in my view

It really is funny how a lot of folks have shifting targets - first it is player A, then he does well .. so, move on to Player B, then he does well too, simple .. move on to player C. All to what end? Maybe I know the answer ... but it still does not work out, does it??

Before I started this thread, I compared the statsitics of VS, RD, SRT, Kaif, YS and SG.....YS is way ahead of the rest because of his recent performances. RD has been as consitent as ever. SG is not in contention. SRT is currently not in the picture and enough has been said about him.The Damocles word is hanging on VS's head from what I have been reading of late. Raina is too new to be discussed. We have nothing to say about Dhoni. GG is a compromise candidate.

And Kaif has been touted as a great middle order bat but has been performing rather insipidly in the last few games.

So is there anything wrong in picking him up for a discussion. There is no need to read between the lines when there are none. Take the last 10 innings and you will know the truth. And why 10...because 10 is a reasonable sample for ODIs. the 10 before that may have been great. But the earlier innings have been nothing stupendous. In my view, the latest the sample, the better the quality of analysis

Ravi, let us pass on what is a reasonable sample size; it will get us nowhere.

I still do not get why the RCA XI match score should not be considered ... after all it was one of the recent performances against a good attack (Kabir Ali, Anderson, Plunkett, Ian Blackwell, Collingwood) and played in the right competitive spirit.

Now, on the scores that you collated, some context would also be useful in making a call. As I remember it, MK came back towards the end of the SL series.

Against SL (mind you the only matches where he batted on "flat" Indian wickets)
6th ODI - played the sheet anchor role as YS went ballistic - scored 38 no, coming in at 57/2 and staying till the victory target of 197 was achieved
7th ODI - failed with just 13 runs scored

Against SA (flat batting tracks for sides batting second; both sides struggled batting first)
1st ODI - failed (India batted first), scored just 1
2nd ODI - Did not Bat (India batted second) - lost an opportunity on "flat" batting conditions
3rd ODI - 46 (India batted first) - held innings together after entire top order collapsed in difficult batting conditions
4th ODI - 16 not out (India batted second) - stayed there till India won

Against Pak (flat batting wickets)
1st ODI - 8 (is this a failure? NO, in my view) got out slogging in the 50th over, 2 balls to spare
2nd ODI - 5 not out - stayed till India won the match
3rd ODI - 0 (failed)
4th ODI - 0 (failed)
5th ODI - Did not bat

Against England (excluding the RCA XI knock)
1st ODI - 4 (is this a failure?) run out ... unlucky that bat lifted after getting in the crease

So, I count that as 4 failures in the past 10 innings ... not an extraordinary record, I admit, but does not look as bad as those numbers looked without the reference to context

If we were to attribute reasons based on the context, no batsman is a failure.
VS was not a failure in the previous innings because he wanted to score fast and the ball hit the wrong part of the bat. YS was not a failure because he was unlucky that the ball took the edge and the wickets came in the way. RD played well but was unlucky that the ball he got out bounced a little higher than the previous one.

What everyone looks at ultimately is the chances that one has got and how they have been utilized.

[achutank]

which is also a very correct point.

[tombaan]

i think kaif is in lot of pain and grief. I can read it on his face. He was not appointed vice captain and yuvraj was that has affected his performance

[achutank]

eh?

[tombaan]

good response. I applauded you. the remark coming from you , you know where was not one I expect from you. I had always expected better stuff from you