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[keep-it-cool]

ICC rankings apart, I think one can now safely conclude that Australia, South Africa & India are the top three teams in the world at the moment (i hope india do not goof up in NZ after i've said this).

Each team has played each other recently and I thought it would be interesting to see how they fare head to head - home and away.

India v Australia (8 matches)

In India - India won 2-0
In Australia - Australia won 2-1 (ignore Sydney for the moment)

Total Score - India - 3 :: Australia - 2

India v S Africa (6 matches)

In India - 1-1
In S Africa - S Africa won 2-1

Total Score - S Africa - 3 :: India - 2

S Africa v Australia (6 matches)

In Australia - S Africa won 2-1
In S Africa - Australia won 2-1 (assuming that SA do not choke in the ongoing test)

Total Score - S Africa - 3 :: Australia - 3


Total Win/Loss Ratio

India :: 1 (5 Ws & 5 Ls)
Australia :: 0.83 (5 Ws & 6 Ls)
S Africa :: 1.2 (6 Ws & 5 Ls)

Away Wins

India :: 2
Australia :: 2
S Africa :: 3

Net Net, SA still has a better record than the other two teams - their recent losses to Australia notwithstanding.

Of course, one could argue that the India SA series happened quite some time back and the teams were different. Or that if the Sydney verdict is flipped around, the results would be different - both fair points.

I would love to see an India v S Africa home & away test series over the next six months - sadly that wont happen.

[flute]

my prediction is, things will continue to be the way they are, similar to the situation illustrated above by the win ratio, all 3 teams are going to be close and it did be a see-saw battle for the foreseeable future with no clear dominant force..and it is good for cricket. I don't think India displayed enough yet to even hope for the kind of domination that Aus showed at their peak for a decade.

[ganavk]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

[ramshorns]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

[flute]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

It is quite clear over the span of the careers that VVS is a one trick pony ( great only against Aus). Sure he is talented and graceful in his batting, but he is not no where close to SRT or RD in terms of consistency and performance. His moments come only with Aus. SRT & RD in their own league, followed by VVS & SG. Gracefulness and pleasure on eyes is not the same as consistency.

[ramshorns]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

It is quite clear over the span of the careers that VVS is a one trick pony ( great only against Aus). Sure he is talented and graceful in his batting, but he is not no where close to SRT or RD in terms of consistency and performance. His moments come only with Aus. SRT & RD in their own league, followed by VVS & SG. Gracefulness and pleasure on eyes is not the same as consistency.

Consistency yes.  Performance no.  No one trick pony either though that in itself is saying a lot when you are great against the best team for over a decade.  Knocks in J'berg, Mohali against NZ in 2003, Port of Spian from top of my head will clearly prove that he has performed in as tough a situations as SRT or RD did and against different opponents.

Plus the spirit of only RD and SRT being the ones that can perform on pacy tracks is a myth and I have provided basis for that if you carefully read the previous post.

[RicePlateReddy]

Rather than 3 way one day tournaments a la CB series which are no longer to be staged, it may be nice to stage 3 way test series. SA and India in Australia, SA and Australia in India etc. I think the spectators and TV interest will peak even when the neutral teams play.

This could introduce a new dimension to test cricket, dare I say shades of "supertests" from Packer's WSC days  .

[ganavk]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

[ramshorns]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

[justforkix]

Rather than 3 way one day tournaments a la CB series which are no longer to be staged, it may be nice to stage 3 way test series. SA and India in Australia, SA and Australia in India etc. I think the spectators and TV interest will peak even when the neutral teams play.

This could introduce a new dimension to test cricket, dare I say shades of "supertests" from Packer's WSC days  .

Excellent suggestion. Obviously, these are played in only Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai and Kolkata. Other centers don't attract crowds for test cricket for whatever reasons. Actually can just play this every year in each country by rotation.....

[ganavk]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

[ramshorns]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

Yes I think you do not understand the game enough if not you will not be making statements like SRT and RD are only great bastman of the last 20 years that played for India. 

We all know how RD played on barrowed time for better part of 18 months with a moronic S/R for being the one of the only two greats.

On the same token there may be people who may think I do understand the game enough but I give a damn about it.

[ramshorns]

Rather than 3 way one day tournaments a la CB series which are no longer to be staged, it may be nice to stage 3 way test series. SA and India in Australia, SA and Australia in India etc. I think the spectators and TV interest will peak even when the neutral teams play.

This could introduce a new dimension to test cricket, dare I say shades of "supertests" from Packer's WSC days  .

Excellent suggestion. Obviously, these are played in only Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai and Kolkata. Other centers don't attract crowds for test cricket for whatever reasons. Actually can just play this every year in each country by rotation.....

After the construction of the Uppal stadium with further improvements in place Hyderabad should be upgraded to host Test matches.  Even for Ranji game there are 2000-3000 people just floating in and out.  I think the interest it evokes can better Bangalore and be on par with Mumbai or Chennai.

Shiv Bhai is trying his best.  Hope it gets it due for being a fast growing metropolis and a quality stadium.

[flashpan]

I think Bangalore is one of the best centres and it should remain as such. The test attendence is always the highest over here as seen in the last test we hosted and the facilities both for the paying public and players  is top-class.

[LosingNow]

Rather than 3 way one day tournaments a la CB series which are no longer to be staged, it may be nice to stage 3 way test series. SA and India in Australia, SA and Australia in India etc. I think the spectators and TV interest will peak even when the neutral teams play.

This could introduce a new dimension to test cricket, dare I say shades of "supertests" from Packer's WSC days  .

Excellent suggestion. Obviously, these are played in only Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai and Kolkata. Other centers don't attract crowds for test cricket for whatever reasons. Actually can just play this every year in each country by rotation.....

After the construction of the Uppal stadium with further improvements in place Hyderabad should be upgraded to host Test matches.  Even for Ranji game there are 2000-3000 people just floating in and out.  I think the interest it evokes can better Bangalore and be on par with Mumbai or Chennai.

Shiv Bhai is trying his best.  Hope it gets it due for being a fast growing metropolis and a quality stadium.

This is a no-brainer imo. I read that it was officially sanctioned as a test center.

Frankly, Hyd is much much ahead of places like Kanpur, Nagpur and Ahmedabad.

[keep-it-cool]

They did try an Asian test championship which was almost like a triangular series. Somehow did not take off as an idea. But I agree ...maybe they should make it an annual feature between the three top ranked teams as per ICC rankings.

[ganavk]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

Yes I think you do not understand the game enough if not you will not be making statements like SRT and RD are only great bastman of the last 20 years that played for India. 

We all know how RD played on barrowed time for better part of 18 months with a moronic S/R for being the one of the only two greats.

On the same token there may be people who may think I do understand the game enough but I give a damn about it.

Did you miss a 'not' after that do in the last sentence. if so add me to that list of people and here in this forum itself I am 3rd or 4th one who is part of the list and that is a good majority enough,
There are some people who earn that right to play on borrowed time based on how they have played through their career. Too glad you cannot recognize that simple fact.

[ramshorns]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

Yes I think you do not understand the game enough if not you will not be making statements like SRT and RD are only great bastman of the last 20 years that played for India. 

We all know how RD played on barrowed time for better part of 18 months with a moronic S/R for being the one of the only two greats.

On the same token there may be people who may think I do understand the game enough but I give a damn about it.

Did you miss a 'not' after that do in the last sentence. if so add me to that list of people and here in this forum itself I am 3rd or 4th one who is part of the list and that is a good majority enough,
There are some people who earn that right to play on borrowed time based on how they have played through their career. Too glad you cannot recognize that simple fact.

You are being torn apart here

Let us recap

1) First you say there are no one excepting RD and SRT who can play on hostile tracks.

You got challenged and proven wrong that there are others too that are not only as good but even better.

2) Then you get subjective and say RD and SRT are the only two great batsman in the last 20 years.

You again were challenged and showed how a so called great played on borrowed time for almost 18 months with almost Vettori like average in that span.

.....
Then after that you as usual are clutching on to the straws and started blabbering like saying that RD earned etc..etc...without even knowing the cricketing reasons and logic behind it.  So much for having a grasp on the game.

[gopolks]

I would say India are the best team in the world at the moment, followed by South Africa and then Australia.

[LosingNow]

I would say India are the best team in the world at the moment, followed by South Africa and then Australia.

hmm.. till India beat SA in SA.. I think they are a best test side among the three.

[WicketView]

I think these three teams are very close right now. I would want to treat them at par. However, if I had to choose one as the top team, on the basis of recent results, I think I will side with WN ... SAF. Of course, I am hoping that things will change. For example, Dravid hitting his stride and Yuvi consolidating his position could help India pip the post.
On the other hand, area of concern that are emerging are
(a) Ishant Sharma  ... he has not looked as sharp as he was in the previous series in NZ. And keep in mind that his bowling (along with Zak) was instrumental in our recent success.
(b) Dhoni's wicket keeping: I think his keeping in NZ has been less than expected ...  if this is not a blip but a systematic slide, we have a lot to worry about.   

[RicePlateReddy]

I would say India are the best team in the world at the moment, followed by South Africa and then Australia.

hmm.. till India beat SA in SA.. I think they are a best test side among the three.

I think SA's batting would be vulnerable against a quality spinner. I would love to see SA against Murali and Mendis both at home and in SL.

[ganavk]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

Yes I think you do not understand the game enough if not you will not be making statements like SRT and RD are only great bastman of the last 20 years that played for India. 

We all know how RD played on barrowed time for better part of 18 months with a moronic S/R for being the one of the only two greats.

On the same token there may be people who may think I do understand the game enough but I give a damn about it.

Did you miss a 'not' after that do in the last sentence. if so add me to that list of people and here in this forum itself I am 3rd or 4th one who is part of the list and that is a good majority enough,
There are some people who earn that right to play on borrowed time based on how they have played through their career. Too glad you cannot recognize that simple fact.

You are being torn apart here

Let us recap

1) First you say there are no one excepting RD and SRT who can play on hostile tracks.

You got challenged and proven wrong that there are others too that are not only as good but even better.

2) Then you get subjective and say RD and SRT are the only two great batsman in the last 20 years.

You again were challenged and showed how a so called great played on borrowed time for almost 18 months with almost Vettori like average in that span.

.....
Then after that you as usual are clutching on to the straws and started blabbering like saying that RD earned etc..etc...without even knowing the cricketing reasons and logic behind it.  So much for having a grasp on the game.

Obviously you can't get sarcasm! All I meant was that if you think VVS, SG ZK , Bhajji are as good as SRT and RD facing SA in SA then please feel free to add your point but no need to pull down SRT/RD to show them VVS is better. Apparently you cannot accept someone talking about great players if one does not include VVS in all the conversation. Looks like you assumed that I seriously accepted VVS, SG, Bhajji, Zk to be in same class as SRT/RD and that shows your knowledge. You can have the last word and I am sure you will

[ramshorns]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

Yes I think you do not understand the game enough if not you will not be making statements like SRT and RD are only great bastman of the last 20 years that played for India. 

We all know how RD played on barrowed time for better part of 18 months with a moronic S/R for being the one of the only two greats.

On the same token there may be people who may think I do understand the game enough but I give a damn about it.

Did you miss a 'not' after that do in the last sentence. if so add me to that list of people and here in this forum itself I am 3rd or 4th one who is part of the list and that is a good majority enough,
There are some people who earn that right to play on borrowed time based on how they have played through their career. Too glad you cannot recognize that simple fact.

You are being torn apart here

Let us recap

1) First you say there are no one excepting RD and SRT who can play on hostile tracks.

You got challenged and proven wrong that there are others too that are not only as good but even better.

2) Then you get subjective and say RD and SRT are the only two great batsman in the last 20 years.

You again were challenged and showed how a so called great played on borrowed time for almost 18 months with almost Vettori like average in that span.

.....
Then after that you as usual are clutching on to the straws and started blabbering like saying that RD earned etc..etc...without even knowing the cricketing reasons and logic behind it.  So much for having a grasp on the game.

Obviously you can't get sarcasm! All I meant was that if you think VVS, SG ZK , Bhajji are as good as SRT and RD facing SA in SA then please feel free to add your point but no need to pull down SRT/RD to show them VVS is better. Apparently you cannot accept someone talking about great players if one does not include VVS in all the conversation. Looks like you assumed that I seriously accepted VVS, SG, Bhajji, Zk to be in same class as SRT/RD and that shows your knowledge. You can have the last word and I am sure you will

I will it rest for now.   You are just beating about the bush now blabbering.

You are inaccurate in your assessment that Tendulkar and Dravid are the only one's that can handle hostile conditions. Next time before you make such claims think twice lest you will be exposed and taken to the cleaners which is not a Dravid trait.

One last piece of advise if I were the fan of a player like Dravid who over the last 18 months is playing under barrowed time I would not be making extravagant statements and getting exposed.  And also the same all time great player whose average drips to below 50 in tests without the minnows should put things under perspective.  And add to that his S/R and dour batting style that pales when a Laxman or Tendulkar are on song should also be another indicator of things.

[justforkix]

I would say India are the best team in the world at the moment, followed by South Africa and then Australia.

hmm.. till India beat SA in SA.. I think they are a best test side among the three.

lets first beat them in India

last 3 series have been 0-2, 1-0-1, 1-1-1. SA have given the most trouble at home.....

[keep-it-cool]

I would say India are the best team in the world at the moment, followed by South Africa and then Australia.

hmm.. till India beat SA in SA.. I think they are a best test side among the three.

I think SA's batting would be vulnerable against a quality spinner. I would love to see SA against Murali and Mendis both at home and in SL.

They have rarely had trouble against India in India ..except if it is a rank turner. By that logic, India is even more susceptible to a quality pace attack in favourable conditions.

[ganavk]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

Yes I think you do not understand the game enough if not you will not be making statements like SRT and RD are only great bastman of the last 20 years that played for India. 

We all know how RD played on barrowed time for better part of 18 months with a moronic S/R for being the one of the only two greats.

On the same token there may be people who may think I do understand the game enough but I give a damn about it.

Did you miss a 'not' after that do in the last sentence. if so add me to that list of people and here in this forum itself I am 3rd or 4th one who is part of the list and that is a good majority enough,
There are some people who earn that right to play on borrowed time based on how they have played through their career. Too glad you cannot recognize that simple fact.

You are being torn apart here

Let us recap

1) First you say there are no one excepting RD and SRT who can play on hostile tracks.

You got challenged and proven wrong that there are others too that are not only as good but even better.

2) Then you get subjective and say RD and SRT are the only two great batsman in the last 20 years.

You again were challenged and showed how a so called great played on borrowed time for almost 18 months with almost Vettori like average in that span.

.....
Then after that you as usual are clutching on to the straws and started blabbering like saying that RD earned etc..etc...without even knowing the cricketing reasons and logic behind it.  So much for having a grasp on the game.

Obviously you can't get sarcasm! All I meant was that if you think VVS, SG ZK , Bhajji are as good as SRT and RD facing SA in SA then please feel free to add your point but no need to pull down SRT/RD to show them VVS is better. Apparently you cannot accept someone talking about great players if one does not include VVS in all the conversation. Looks like you assumed that I seriously accepted VVS, SG, Bhajji, Zk to be in same class as SRT/RD and that shows your knowledge. You can have the last word and I am sure you will

I will it rest for now.   You are just beating about the bush now blabbering.

You are inaccurate in your assessment that Tendulkar and Dravid are the only one's that can handle hostile conditions. Next time before you make such claims think twice lest you will be exposed and taken to the cleaners which is not a Dravid trait.

One last piece of advise if I were the fan of a player like Dravid who over the last 18 months is playing under barrowed time I would not be making extravagant statements and getting exposed.  And also the same all time great player whose average drips to below 50 in tests without the minnows should put things under perspective.  And add to that his S/R and dour batting style that pales when a Laxman or Tendulkar are on song should also be another indicator of things.

Thanks for realizing that at last. No one is making extravagant claims and keep your advise to yourself. First of all you seem to be responding to all my posts assuming I am a big RD fan..which is true but he is not my first favorite. It is SRT. Since 2000 no one has played as many crucial knocks in a winning test match for India as RD has ( including SRT) and I will take those kinds of innings any day over so called batting styles and SRs. By the way, if VSehwag continues his form he will overtake even RD and may be SRT too.
No one is arguing against the fact that VVS is certainly one of the stylish batsman around but somehow you want to include Laxman along side SRT and RD. 

[ramshorns]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

Yes I think you do not understand the game enough if not you will not be making statements like SRT and RD are only great bastman of the last 20 years that played for India. 

We all know how RD played on barrowed time for better part of 18 months with a moronic S/R for being the one of the only two greats.

On the same token there may be people who may think I do understand the game enough but I give a damn about it.

Did you miss a 'not' after that do in the last sentence. if so add me to that list of people and here in this forum itself I am 3rd or 4th one who is part of the list and that is a good majority enough,
There are some people who earn that right to play on borrowed time based on how they have played through their career. Too glad you cannot recognize that simple fact.

You are being torn apart here

Let us recap

1) First you say there are no one excepting RD and SRT who can play on hostile tracks.

You got challenged and proven wrong that there are others too that are not only as good but even better.

2) Then you get subjective and say RD and SRT are the only two great batsman in the last 20 years.

You again were challenged and showed how a so called great played on borrowed time for almost 18 months with almost Vettori like average in that span.

.....
Then after that you as usual are clutching on to the straws and started blabbering like saying that RD earned etc..etc...without even knowing the cricketing reasons and logic behind it.  So much for having a grasp on the game.

Obviously you can't get sarcasm! All I meant was that if you think VVS, SG ZK , Bhajji are as good as SRT and RD facing SA in SA then please feel free to add your point but no need to pull down SRT/RD to show them VVS is better. Apparently you cannot accept someone talking about great players if one does not include VVS in all the conversation. Looks like you assumed that I seriously accepted VVS, SG, Bhajji, Zk to be in same class as SRT/RD and that shows your knowledge. You can have the last word and I am sure you will

I will it rest for now.   You are just beating about the bush now blabbering.

You are inaccurate in your assessment that Tendulkar and Dravid are the only one's that can handle hostile conditions. Next time before you make such claims think twice lest you will be exposed and taken to the cleaners which is not a Dravid trait.

One last piece of advise if I were the fan of a player like Dravid who over the last 18 months is playing under barrowed time I would not be making extravagant statements and getting exposed.  And also the same all time great player whose average drips to below 50 in tests without the minnows should put things under perspective.  And add to that his S/R and dour batting style that pales when a Laxman or Tendulkar are on song should also be another indicator of things.

Thanks for realizing that at last. No one is making extravagant claims and keep your advise to yourself. First of all you seem to be responding to all my posts assuming I am a big RD fan..which is true but he is not my first favorite. It is SRT. Since 2000 no one has played as many crucial knocks in a winning test match for India as RD has ( including SRT) and I will take those kinds of innings any day over so called batting styles and SRs. By the way, if VSehwag continues his form he will overtake even RD and may be SRT too.
No one is arguing against the fact that VVS is certainly one of the stylish batsman around but somehow you want to include Laxman along side SRT and RD.

I do not think RD played any more crucial knocks than VVS since 2000 give or take a few in Tests.  That you are not willing to acknowledge is a given that you are hung up on these two based on mere stats.  That is understandable coming from someone like you who cannot think beyond the numbers.

If not you will not be making statements like RD and SRT are the only ones who can play in hostile conditions.  When that is seriously challenged and proven wrong now you go around bringing in other things which have no relevance to the original boneheaded statement.

Yes I have no problem ranking VVS alongside RD and SRT and in fact in certain conditions prefer him over RD especially post 2006.  Stylish or otherwise which is not RD's forte.

[achutank]

Home and away series against SA would have been great right after this NZ series. May be IPL may not happen and we have this series !
I still think Indian team has to prove that they can play on pacier pitches similar to the one we saw in Durban where ball was bouncing from short of a length. I can't see Indian batsmen handling it better other than SRT and RD.

What exactly did Dravid do in comparison to say a VVS in tougher conditions for you to say it is only SRT and RD that can score in hostile conditions.  Utter BS.  Just see what RD did in 2007 SA tour or the 1999 Aussie tour when he was hopping like a spring chicken.

There are areas where SRT and RD score over others but do not make it sound that rest are bunnies.  There is no basis for you to support that claim.

Boss..you can include VVS, SG , VS , Bhajji, ZK everyone. Bhajji and ZK have also played some crucial knocks. Note I have included MSD because I don't know but at this point I certainly have more faith in MSD compared to RD, VVS etc

You can include who all you want.  It only brings your understanding of the game to the fore and expose you.  Does not affect me.

The point I was trying to make is SRT and RD are not in any way shape or form better Test players than VVS.  If you want to substantiate get me a list of all the best knocks they played in various conditions and I will match VVS's with that list and let us see what happens. 

It is ignorance and lack of understanding that makes you think RD and SRT are the only players that can play in hostile conditions.  But the history and facts do not concur with that.

You can make your point whenever you want but do not think that you are the only ones who understands the game. Over last two 20 years or so RD, SRT are the two great batsmen from India and obviously you do not agree and you can make your point. History concurs with that just based on that fact.

Yes I think you do not understand the game enough if not you will not be making statements like SRT and RD are only great bastman of the last 20 years that played for India. 

We all know how RD played on barrowed time for better part of 18 months with a moronic S/R for being the one of the only two greats.

On the same token there may be people who may think I do understand the game enough but I give a damn about it.

Did you miss a 'not' after that do in the last sentence. if so add me to that list of people and here in this forum itself I am 3rd or 4th one who is part of the list and that is a good majority enough,
There are some people who earn that right to play on borrowed time based on how they have played through their career. Too glad you cannot recognize that simple fact.

You are being torn apart here

Let us recap

1) First you say there are no one excepting RD and SRT who can play on hostile tracks.

You got challenged and proven wrong that there are others too that are not only as good but even better.

2) Then you get subjective and say RD and SRT are the only two great batsman in the last 20 years.

You again were challenged and showed how a so called great played on borrowed time for almost 18 months with almost Vettori like average in that span.

.....
Then after that you as usual are clutching on to the straws and started blabbering like saying that RD earned etc..etc...without even knowing the cricketing reasons and logic behind it.  So much for having a grasp on the game.

Obviously you can't get sarcasm! All I meant was that if you think VVS, SG ZK , Bhajji are as good as SRT and RD facing SA in SA then please feel free to add your point but no need to pull down SRT/RD to show them VVS is better. Apparently you cannot accept someone talking about great players if one does not include VVS in all the conversation. Looks like you assumed that I seriously accepted VVS, SG, Bhajji, Zk to be in same class as SRT/RD and that shows your knowledge. You can have the last word and I am sure you will

I will it rest for now.   You are just beating about the bush now blabbering.

You are inaccurate in your assessment that Tendulkar and Dravid are the only one's that can handle hostile conditions. Next time before you make such claims think twice lest you will be exposed and taken to the cleaners which is not a Dravid trait.

One last piece of advise if I were the fan of a player like Dravid who over the last 18 months is playing under barrowed time I would not be making extravagant statements and getting exposed.  And also the same all time great player whose average drips to below 50 in tests without the minnows should put things under perspective.  And add to that his S/R and dour batting style that pales when a Laxman or Tendulkar are on song should also be another indicator of things.

Thanks for realizing that at last. No one is making extravagant claims and keep your advise to yourself. First of all you seem to be responding to all my posts assuming I am a big RD fan..which is true but he is not my first favorite. It is SRT. Since 2000 no one has played as many crucial knocks in a winning test match for India as RD has ( including SRT) and I will take those kinds of innings any day over so called batting styles and SRs. By the way, if VSehwag continues his form he will overtake even RD and may be SRT too.
No one is arguing against the fact that VVS is certainly one of the stylish batsman around but somehow you want to include Laxman along side SRT and RD.

I do not think RD played any more crucial knocks than VVS since 2000 give or take a few in Tests.  That you are not willing to acknowledge is a given that you are hung up on these two based on mere stats.  That is understandable coming from someone like you who cannot think beyond the numbers.

If not you will not be making statements like RD and SRT are the only ones who can play in hostile conditions.  When that is seriously challenged and proven wrong now you go around bringing in other things which have no relevance to the original boneheaded statement.

Yes I have no problem ranking VVS alongside RD and SRT and in fact in certain conditions prefer him over RD especially post 2006.  Stylish or otherwise which is not RD's forte.

see all those boxes together
see how a pattern emerges 

[willow]

I do not think RD played any more crucial knocks than VVS since 2000 give or take a few in Tests. 

this is way off from reality.

since 2000 RD has an average in excess of 70 in matches won. while VVS avg in the forties.

RD had 7 MOM performances to VVS's 3.

if you think this is give or take a few we can start by enumerating them.

you will be surprised.

[ramshorns]

I do not think RD played any more crucial knocks than VVS since 2000 give or take a few in Tests. 

this is way off from reality.

since 2000 RD has an average in excess of 70 in matches won. while VVS avg in the forties.

RD had 7 MOM performances to VVS's 3.

if you think this is give or take a few we can start by enumerating them.

you will be surprised.

List out all the matches in which RD performed well in your opinion by excluding matches involving BD and Zim since 2000.

Crucial knock in essense does not mean one has to be MOM.

For example VVS's J'berg 70 odd did not get him a MOM but it was crucial in every sense of it.

I will wait for you to come up with a list of RD innings and then I will comeup with what IMO qualifies to match them.  I will see how surprised I can be.

[willow]

I do not think RD played any more crucial knocks than VVS since 2000 give or take a few in Tests. 

this is way off from reality.

since 2000 RD has an average in excess of 70 in matches won. while VVS avg in the forties.

RD had 7 MOM performances to VVS's 3.

if you think this is give or take a few we can start by enumerating them.

you will be surprised.

List out all the matches in which RD performed well in your opinion by excluding matches involving BD and Zim since 2000.

Crucial knock in essense does not mean one has to be MOM.

For example VVS's J'berg 70 odd did not get him a MOM but it was crucial in every sense of it.

I will wait for you to come up with a list of RD innings and then I will comeup with what IMO qualifies to match them.  I will see how surprised I can be.

sorry buddy

if a difference of 70+ average versus a 40+ average does not convince you (in winning matches since 2000) then you will have to dig out the treasures. in my opinion RD was far better than VVS as my memory serves in more matches than VVS, a fact which is borne by the 30+ better average, and in the MOM won, which you discount.

if you want to prove that it is not so then you my friend have to do the dirty work - not me.

so dig out the 38 matches India has won since 2000, and prove it that VVS won more of them than RD.

Good Luck, you need it.

[ramshorns]

I do not think RD played any more crucial knocks than VVS since 2000 give or take a few in Tests. 

this is way off from reality.

since 2000 RD has an average in excess of 70 in matches won. while VVS avg in the forties.

RD had 7 MOM performances to VVS's 3.

if you think this is give or take a few we can start by enumerating them.

you will be surprised.

List out all the matches in which RD performed well in your opinion by excluding matches involving BD and Zim since 2000.

Crucial knock in essense does not mean one has to be MOM.

For example VVS's J'berg 70 odd did not get him a MOM but it was crucial in every sense of it.

I will wait for you to come up with a list of RD innings and then I will comeup with what IMO qualifies to match them.  I will see how surprised I can be.

sorry buddy

if a difference of 70+ average versus a 40+ average does not convince you (in winning matches since 2000) then you will have to dig out the treasures. in my opinion RD was far better than VVS as my memory serves in more matches than VVS, a fact which is borne by the 30+ better average, and in the MOM won, which you discount.

if you want to prove that it is not so then you my friend have to do the dirty work - not me.

so dig out the 38 matches India has won since 2000, and prove it that VVS won more of them than RD.

Good Luck, you need it.

Since the end of 2000 when VVS became a permanent fixture in the middle order in matches India won that do not include BD or a Zim there is no way a 30 point differential in matches won nor did India win that many.

So if it is a opinion that RD is better than VVS based on your memory then that is different.

If you carefully read what I said in different posts on this thread the number of crucial knocks played by VVS are very much comparable to RD and I stand by it.  The knocks could be the ones that India have won or drawn.

Get me a list of RD and I will match it up with VVS's.

Until then we can go at it and nothing changes i.e VVS played as many crucial knocks as RD for India in hostile conditions contrary to what it was said early in the thread that SRT and RD are the only ones that can play on hostile pacy pitches which is far from the truth and bereft of any factual backing.

Goodluck with the list.

[willow]

I do not think RD played any more crucial knocks than VVS since 2000 give or take a few in Tests. 

this is way off from reality.

since 2000 RD has an average in excess of 70 in matches won. while VVS avg in the forties.

RD had 7 MOM performances to VVS's 3.

if you think this is give or take a few we can start by enumerating them.

you will be surprised.

List out all the matches in which RD performed well in your opinion by excluding matches involving BD and Zim since 2000.

Crucial knock in essense does not mean one has to be MOM.

For example VVS's J'berg 70 odd did not get him a MOM but it was crucial in every sense of it.

I will wait for you to come up with a list of RD innings and then I will comeup with what IMO qualifies to match them.  I will see how surprised I can be.

sorry buddy

if a difference of 70+ average versus a 40+ average does not convince you (in winning matches since 2000) then you will have to dig out the treasures. in my opinion RD was far better than VVS as my memory serves in more matches than VVS, a fact which is borne by the 30+ better average, and in the MOM won, which you discount.

if you want to prove that it is not so then you my friend have to do the dirty work - not me.

so dig out the 38 matches India has won since 2000, and prove it that VVS won more of them than RD.

Good Luck, you need it.

Since the end of 2000 when VVS became a permanent fixture in the middle order in matches India won that do not include BD or a Zim there is no way a 30 point differential in matches won nor did India won that many.

So if it is a opinion that RD is better than VVS based on your memory then that is different.

If you carefully read what I said in different posts on this thread the number of crucial knocks played by VVS are very much comparable to RD and I stand by it.  The knocks could be the ones that India have won or drawn.

Get me a list of RD and I will match it up with VVS's.

Until then we can go it and nothing changes i.e VVS played as many crucial knocks as RD for India in hostile conditions contrary to what it was said early in the thread that SRT and RD are the only ones that can play in hostile pact pitches which is far from the truth and bereft of any factual backing.

Goodluck with the list.

my friend you have been saying this for all too long. lets get some facts.

fortunately so far I hold all the aces.....a higher average, greater MOM, 30+ better average ....etc.

YOU are the one arguing that it is not so....

so why dont YOU provide the proof which will substantiate your claim...

...rather than waffle along with the sermon that VVS is great....and no other,

remember ..... the claim is that RD has not in any material or form won more matches than VVS.

it is for you to prove.... i am convinced that RD has won us more matches.

[ramshorns]

I do not think RD played any more crucial knocks than VVS since 2000 give or take a few in Tests. 

this is way off from reality.

since 2000 RD has an average in excess of 70 in matches won. while VVS avg in the forties.

RD had 7 MOM performances to VVS's 3.

if you think this is give or take a few we can start by enumerating them.

you will be surprised.

List out all the matches in which RD performed well in your opinion by excluding matches involving BD and Zim since 2000.

Crucial knock in essense does not mean one has to be MOM.

For example VVS's J'berg 70 odd did not get him a MOM but it was crucial in every sense of it.

I will wait for you to come up with a list of RD innings and then I will comeup with what IMO qualifies to match them.  I will see how surprised I can be.

sorry buddy

if a difference of 70+ average versus a 40+ average does not convince you (in winning matches since 2000) then you will have to dig out the treasures. in my opinion RD was far better than VVS as my memory serves in more matches than VVS, a fact which is borne by the 30+ better average, and in the MOM won, which you discount.

if you want to prove that it is not so then you my friend have to do the dirty work - not me.

so dig out the 38 matches India has won since 2000, and prove it that VVS won more of them than RD.

Good Luck, you need it.

Since the end of 2000 when VVS became a permanent fixture in the middle order in matches India won that do not include BD or a Zim there is no way a 30 point differential in matches won nor did India won that many.

So if it is a opinion that RD is better than VVS based on your memory then that is different.

If you carefully read what I said in different posts on this thread the number of crucial knocks played by VVS are very much comparable to RD and I stand by it.  The knocks could be the ones that India have won or drawn.

Get me a list of RD and I will match it up with VVS's.

Until then we can go it and nothing changes i.e VVS played as many crucial knocks as RD for India in hostile conditions contrary to what it was said early in the thread that SRT and RD are the only ones that can play in hostile pact pitches which is far from the truth and bereft of any factual backing.

Goodluck with the list.

my friend you have been saying this for all too long. lets get some facts.

Yes I am and I stand by it.  So it is time for you to get the facts out and let  us see how you present them.  I am looking forward to it.

fortunately so far I hold all the aces.....a higher average, greater MOM, 30+ better average ....etc.

.

Unfortunately you do not hold on to any aces excepting saying greater MOM and 30+ average which is not the only measure to determine someones greatness or brand a knock cruical.  Plus 30 plus average differential is not accurate either since 1-1-2001 in matches India won minus BD and Zim.

YOU are the one arguing that it is not so....

I am the one saying so not arguing so...

so why dont YOU provide the proof which will substantiate your claim...

...rather than waffle along with the sermon that VVS is great....and no other,

I know your sermon.  Say 30 plus average difference and when asked for proof how that is case waffle along and say things like my memory etc etc.

remember ..... the claim is that RD has not in any material or form won more matches than VVS.

it is for you to prove.... i am convinced that RD has won us more matches

First come up with a list and we will debug and debate each knock rather than this.  Then we will see who will convice who.  Goodluck with the numbers.  In your own words.  You need it.

[willow]

ramshorn

no more discussion with you before you actually get some evidence to prove your point.

so come up with instances in the last 38 matches we wonsince 2000,as you professed, minnows included, where VVS won us more matches than RD.

We can have a discussion then, I am not going to answer your waffling without evidence.

ps: i am not inoc, i wish i was because I think he had the measure of you....since you are seeing his visions even when he is not here

[ramshorns]

ramshorn

no more discussion with you before you actually get some evidence to prove your point.

so come up with instances in the last 38 matches we wonsince 2000,as you professed, minnows included, where VVS won us more matches than RD.

We can have a discussion then, I am not going to answer your waffling without evidence.

First off correct yourself India did not win 38 times since 1-1-2001 the time when VVS became a permanent fixture in the middle order in games not involving BD and ZIM.  Now let me wait for that list and see how many many more matches RD won for India in comparision to a VVS.

ps: i am not inoc, i wish i was because I think he had the measure of you....since you are seeing his visions even when he is not here

Wish he has a measure of himself the way he left this place leave alone on others.  Enough said.

[willow]

ramshorn

no more discussion with you before you actually get some evidence to prove your point.

so come up with instances in the last 38 matches we wonsince 2000,as you professed, minnows included, where VVS won us more matches than RD.

We can have a discussion then, I am not going to answer your waffling without evidence.

First off correct yourself India did not win 38 times since 1-1-2001 the time when VVS became a permanent fixture in the middle order in games not involving BD and ZIM.  Now let me wait for that list and see how many many more matches RD won for India in comparision to a VVS.

first of all read a post.

we did win 38 matches minnows included like i posted...refer to bolded and red above.

i am not but others might be still interested in the list whereby VVS won India more matches than RD....for others, not me produce the list. i am gone from this forum so you do not have to worry about me, but maybe other people are calling your bluff. so ......educate them or yourself.

This at least four posts too late my friend. your list that i have been asking for and is ever missing. may be for ever who knows..you are not the one for a reality check anyway.

ps: i am not inoc, i wish i was because I think he had the measure of you....since you are seeing his visions even when he is not here

Wish he has a measure of himself the way he left this place leave alone on others.  Enough said.

i dont know who inoc is and why he left but it seems he had an indelible impression on you

[keep-it-cool]

Ok Ok ...I'll provide some stats at least to start with so that the discussion can continue (although I would also like to continue with the Race for No 1 part somewhere)

This is how RD and VVS have fared in all matches v/s non minnows outside the subcontinent - note: this does not check for won or drawn or lost matches - as Rams said, a knock may be crucial in any case & why blame one player for a team loss!

Rahul Dravid

Overall
Matches  : 33
Runs       : 2,939
Avg        : 55.45
SR          : 42.12

Country wise
Australia  : 62.8
England   : 66.2
New Zeal : 41.0
S Africa   : 22.7
W Indies  : 69.2

VVS Laxman

Overall
Matches  : 32
Runs       : 2,382
Avg        : 48.31
SR          : 48.61

Country wise
Australia  : 61.4
England   : 44.8
New Zeal : 11.4
S Africa   : 41.3
W Indies  : 56.2

Make what you want of it!

[keep-it-cool]

If I take the same criteria as above and look at averages in

Matches won by India (all v/s non minnows) overseas:

Rahul Dravid: 79.7
VVS Laxman: 54.5

Matches won or drawn by India (non minnows) overseas:

Rahul Dravid: 77.7
VVS Laxman: 57.7