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[12th_Man]

There were more than one to add in the signature: thought will create a thread .
Pls feel free to add the interesting ones.

------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/7922867.stm
Sharad Pawar sahib:
The situation in India is vastly different from Pakistan," he said. "Our security forces are competent, the public is aware, so I don't think we would have a situation (like the one in Lahore) here."


--------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/7922867.stm

I would be very nervous because that kind of attack is easier to carry out in India - and these guys can attack where they like

-- Duncan Fletcher
---------------------
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10560096

"We were promised high level security and in our hour of need that security vanished and they left us to be sitting ducks".


"We all had the same feeling - we were just waiting for a bullet to hit us."

--Chris Broad
----------------------

[12th_Man]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/cricket/the-1m-question-for-ipl-stars/2009/03/04/1235842489248.html
-------------------------

"I sat with Pup [Michael Clarke] last night, and he was saying how happy he was not to be in the IPL. But some of the other guys who potentially could be going there will have all those things now they have to think about, more so than they did before,"
-- Ponting
------------------------

"It does hit home a lot more, considering being a cricketer," McGrath said. "With the IPL coming up there's concerns there too, being quite close to Pakistan."
-- McGrath
-------------------------------------------

no amount of money would persuade him to put his life in danger.
"After what happened in Mumbai late last year and after what happened last night, it keeps raising questions. Before that, I would have no worries about going to India, but now there are questions to be asked,"
--Jacob Oram

[LosingNow]

For a dumb westerner to equate India with Pak is one thing.. but for these guys -who have travelled and experienced India at close quarters- to do that is silly and disheartening.

[ramshorns]

For a dumb westerner to equate India with Pak is one thing.. but for these guys -who have travelled and experienced India at close quarters- to do that is silly and disheartening.

First no way in the quotes anyone is suggesting India and Pak. be viewed through the same lens.  When lifes are taken so easily and one's own life is in question it is natural to be concerned.  In fact I fully agree with the POV's of RP, McGrath and anyone else for that matter.  It is better to be safe than sorry.  And Indian govt. has a dubious distinction of protecting its own citizens even after attacks of such magnitude.  What does it say of a country whose total budget for national security is lesser than protecting the *hi named faamily read that Nehru descendents.  Not much.   How much ever India is better than Pak. in all spheres and human rights when it comes to national security they are lagging by international standards and on that front skepticism creeps in.

[RicePlateReddy]

Scrapping of the IPL will be a blessing in disguise for the Indian corporates given the deep recession and crumbling of the markets. The payment guarantees there were completely over the top. The dissolution or indefinite postponement of the league should be good news to at least some corporate houses.

[Libran]

For a dumb westerner to equate India with Pak is one thing.. but for these guys -who have travelled and experienced India at close quarters- to do that is silly and disheartening.

If Indians can talk, why blame the westerners...
And these Indians are those who live elsewhere, travel to India for short trips once in 2-3 maybe 4 years but seem more knowledgeable than us who are on the roads on a daily basis...

Ivory tower views come free..

Security and security awareness needs a fillip...but India is a lot ..lot safer than most people tend to think... Like I said in my earlier post... any state/city with an influx of people from across the border will face the problem...Kolkata, Delhi, Mumbai are key cities...

5 planes were hijacked on the same day.. will that ever happen in India..
Every country has its problems... every country has its advantages

Pakistan is an exception to the rule... they have problems which is to their military and the militants advantage

[Blwe_torch]

For a dumb westerner to equate India with Pak is one thing.. but for these guys -who have travelled and experienced India at close quarters- to do that is silly and disheartening.

I don't think they are silly though. The Pakis said almost the same thing when the Aussies and Indians ( and before them, many other) refused to tour Pak.

[Cover Point]

For a dumb westerner to equate India with Pak is one thing.. but for these guys -who have travelled and experienced India at close quarters- to do that is silly and disheartening.

If Indians can talk, why blame the westerners...
And these Indians are those who live elsewhere, travel to India for short trips once in 2-3 maybe 4 years but seem more knowledgeable than us who are on the roads on a daily basis...

Ivory tower views come free..

Security and security awareness needs a fillip...but India is a lot ..lot safer than most people tend to think... Like I said in my earlier post... any state/city with an influx of people from across the border will face the problem...Kolkata, Delhi, Mumbai are key cities...

5 planes were hijacked on the same day.. will that ever happen in India..
Every country has its problems... every country has its advantages

Pakistan is an exception to the rule... they have problems which is to their military and the militants advantage

actually people who visit the country may have a better view. Its easy for locals to become "dumb, fat and happy". I just talked to a Pakistani who came back from pak last night and he said the place is absolutely safe. So much for people being on the ground.

The point that Libran doesnt understand is that US had those 5 planes hijacked ... and since then there has been nothing. India has had more and more attacks.

Not only that ... the general law and order situation in India has really deteriorated in the last 10 years. Even in big cities the crime rate is high. And I am talking about violent crime (including western women getting raped and killed or western tourists getting targeted).

[Blwe_torch]

For a dumb westerner to equate India with Pak is one thing.. but for these guys -who have travelled and experienced India at close quarters- to do that is silly and disheartening.

If Indians can talk, why blame the westerners...
And these Indians are those who live elsewhere, travel to India for short trips once in 2-3 maybe 4 years but seem more knowledgeable than us who are on the roads on a daily basis...

Ivory tower views come free..

Security and security awareness needs a fillip...but India is a lot ..lot safer than most people tend to think... Like I said in my earlier post... any state/city with an influx of people from across the border will face the problem...Kolkata, Delhi, Mumbai are key cities...

5 planes were hijacked on the same day.. will that ever happen in India..
Every country has its problems... every country has its advantages

Pakistan is an exception to the rule... they have problems which is to their military and the militants advantage

actually people who visit the country may have a better view. Its easy for locals to become "dumb, fat and happy". I just talked to a Pakistani who came back from pak last night and he said the place is absolutely safe. So much for people being on the ground.

The point that Libran doesnt understand is that US had those 5 planes hijacked ... and since then there has been nothing. India has had more and more attacks.

Not only that ... the general law and order situation in India has really deteriorated in the last 10 years. Even in big cities the crime rate is high. And I am talking about violent crime (including western women getting raped and killed or western tourists getting targeted).

Tourists are attacked even in South Africa...or other such african countries.... ...................and why just african countries?..............there are violent racial crimes all over Europe.  Does that equate Europe or SA to Pakistan?

[12th_Man]

Options : which one do you feel safe :
a. Europian country police protection
b. Indian Police protection

[ramshorns]

Options : which one do you feel safe :
a. Europian country police protection
b. Indian Police protection

For me it is a no brainer.  Option a. Europian/American Police protection any day of the week as things stand.  The Indian police are just not given the tools and armour to make an impact.  Despite we coming along as a economic power the antiquated methods continue when it comes to protecting the common man in India.

[12th_Man]

I agree Rams and think most of the members feel same way.
I still think if terrorists want to strike in India, most of the times they can do it at free will.

[Cover Point]

I agree Rams and think most of the members feel same way.
I still think if terrorists want to strike in India, most of the times they can do it at free will.

except conspiracy theorists like Ravi .... who will attack NRI's for voicing some fair comments.

[xiexie]

With due credit to Libran's POV -I think India has a far bigger problem than what it understands or is willing to accept. The only thing that's real in India is crime and in every single sphere and walk of life.

As an NRI one tends to view these things more clearly since most times you tend to compare what happens in a similar situation in the adopted country. There is a better point of reference available for a NRI than someone who is in the midst of it all and is getting things done.

[Cover Point]

With due credit to Libran's POV -I think India has a far bigger problem than what it understands or is willing to accept. The only thing that's real in India is crime and in every single sphere and walk of life.

As an NRI one tends to view these things more clearly since most times you tend to compare what happens in a similar situation in the adopted country. There is a better point of reference available for a NRI than someone who is in the midst of it all and is getting things done.

exactly.

[dextrous]

well, dear NRIs (like myself), much like Americans could care less about what Indians in India think about their security, NRIs also lose the right to be taken seriously along with their plane tickets. one can have an opinion on everything but that does not mean the people who face the problem every day will take those opinions seriously.

[Cover Point]

well, dear NRIs (like myself), much like Americans could care less about what Indians in India think about their security, NRIs also lose the right to be taken seriously along with their plane tickets. one can have an opinion on everything but that does not mean the people who face the problem every day will take those opinions seriously.

so just because average american is ignorant you want to promote the same ignorance among Indians too? Why dont you try to counter any of the points made. Your post makes no real points ... just a rant.

[Libran]

This is not an NRI - local issue as some would want to read it or the deliberate twist it is being given...

 What needs to be looked at is ...
1. What is the density of population and the police to people ratio ?
2. What is the level of commitment from the Government / the law force
3. The lack of commitment comes from the fact that we have no penalty system for crimes.. nothing that cannot be escaped with a small pay off
4. Lack of commitment comes from low pay scales and lower living conditions and a need to make the quick buck to survive and pay off the seniors in the system

We have been left to fend for ourselves...for years now... from the time of appeasement of minority that started in the 60s and 70s. We have a problem of inside jobs ..again due to illiteracy and the quick buck and the so called commitment to religion and not country

In spite of this and many more core and fundamental lacunae, we are moving along at a brisk pace.. the trains in Mumbai are full...the shopping malls are full..the restaurants still need a call-in to book a table... People are not scared... we have become a little more vigilant stemming from the fact that the the law makers and law keepers are a law unto themselves.

On the "NRI" front... Why do you ask for bottled water ? Because you have been used to so called "clean" water straight from the tap that you think cannot be contaminated. We believe that our biological systems are immune to any kind of water that is served.
Why do want 'Air conditioned" cars when you come down here...because you think the air is polluted, there is a lot of heat and dust here.. we believe the heat and dust is what makes us what we are..

If you were to tell me to have bottled water, I may cock a snook.. just as telling me that security here is lax to the extent of people not wanting to visit us.
It is lax... it definitely needs improvement...and it will take time...nothing happens overnight... not after the base has been eroded over years of incompetent and self serving politicians...

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus


 

[LosingNow]

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus 

Not trying to get into or foster Indian vs NRI debate..
..but wasnt there a kid who killed another one in a school in Gurgaon with a gun, a few months ago

[Cover Point]

This is not an NRI - local issue as it is being twisted ( no brainer coming from the originators of these twisted logic)

What needs to be looked at is ...
1. What is the density of population and the police to people ratio ?
2. What is the level of commitment from the Government / the law force
3. The lack of commitment comes from the fact that we have no penalty system for crimes.. nothing that cannot be escaped with a small pay off
4. Lack of commitment comes from low pay scales and lower living conditions and a need to make the quick buck to survive and pay off the seniors in the system

We have been left to fend for ourselves...for years now... from the time of appeasement of minority that started in the 60s and 70s. We have a problem of inside jobs ..again due to illiteracy and the quick buck and the so called commitment to religion and not country

In spite of this and many more core and fundamental lacunae, we are moving along at a brisk pace.. the trains in Mumbai are full...the shopping malls are full..the restaurants still need a call-in to book a table... People are not scared... we have become a little more vigilant stemming from the fact that the the law makers and law keepers are a law unto themselves.

On the "NRI" front... Why do you ask for bottled water ? Because you have been used to so called "clean" water straight from the tap that you think cannot be contaminated. We believe that our biological systems are immune to any kind of water that is served.
Why do want 'Air conditioned" cars when you come down here...because you think the air is polluted, there is a lot of heat and dust here.. we believe the heat and dust is what makes us what we are..

If you were to tell me to have bottled water, I may cock a snook.. just as telling me that security here is lax to the extent of people not wanting to visit us.
It is lax... it definitely needs improvement...and it will take time...nothing happens overnight... not after the base has been eroded over years of incompetent and self serving politicians...

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus

in other words ... "we are like that only" argument. Doesnt make people any safer!

On the shooting school children. Last week when I was in Delhi the news of the day was about a 1 and half year old kid beaten to death by a man just because he had touched this guys motor cycle? There are as many crazy people in India as there are here in the US.

Now there are plenty of guns in India too. And the repercussions of using them are a lot less in India.

Security forces are not just incompetent they are also poorly trained and poorly motivated. But you go on living in your "we are like that only " world. You accept mediocrity and you get mediocrity. No wonder you are still enamored by Ganguly!

[willow]

This is not an NRI - local issue as it is being twisted ( no brainer coming from the originators of these twisted logic)

What needs to be looked at is ...
1. What is the density of population and the police to people ratio ?
2. What is the level of commitment from the Government / the law force
3. The lack of commitment comes from the fact that we have no penalty system for crimes.. nothing that cannot be escaped with a small pay off
4. Lack of commitment comes from low pay scales and lower living conditions and a need to make the quick buck to survive and pay off the seniors in the system

We have been left to fend for ourselves...for years now... from the time of appeasement of minority that started in the 60s and 70s. We have a problem of inside jobs ..again due to illiteracy and the quick buck and the so called commitment to religion and not country

In spite of this and many more core and fundamental lacunae, we are moving along at a brisk pace.. the trains in Mumbai are full...the shopping malls are full..the restaurants still need a call-in to book a table... People are not scared... we have become a little more vigilant stemming from the fact that the the law makers and law keepers are a law unto themselves.

On the "NRI" front... Why do you ask for bottled water ? Because you have been used to so called "clean" water straight from the tap that you think cannot be contaminated. We believe that our biological systems are immune to any kind of water that is served.
Why do want 'Air conditioned" cars when you come down here...because you think the air is polluted, there is a lot of heat and dust here.. we believe the heat and dust is what makes us what we are..

If you were to tell me to have bottled water, I may cock a snook.. just as telling me that security here is lax to the extent of people not wanting to visit us.
It is lax... it definitely needs improvement...and it will take time...nothing happens overnight... not after the base has been eroded over years of incompetent and self serving politicians...

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus

i understand where you are coming from. some good points to mull about.
all those 4 points are pertinent.
also we have permeable borders something the US doesnt, and can bask in the glory of no attacks since 9/11. but we have a worse problem with lot less money to sort it out

other countries like the UK with landline borders are facing similar problems.

[Libran]

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus 

Not trying to get into or foster Indian vs NRI debate..
..but wasnt there a kid who killed another one in a school in Gurgaon with a gun, a few months ago

yes..there was... compare that to the number reported in US and tell me how does that compare

[willow]

This is not an NRI - local issue as it is being twisted ( no brainer coming from the originators of these twisted logic)

What needs to be looked at is ...
1. What is the density of population and the police to people ratio ?
2. What is the level of commitment from the Government / the law force
3. The lack of commitment comes from the fact that we have no penalty system for crimes.. nothing that cannot be escaped with a small pay off
4. Lack of commitment comes from low pay scales and lower living conditions and a need to make the quick buck to survive and pay off the seniors in the system

We have been left to fend for ourselves...for years now... from the time of appeasement of minority that started in the 60s and 70s. We have a problem of inside jobs ..again due to illiteracy and the quick buck and the so called commitment to religion and not country

In spite of this and many more core and fundamental lacunae, we are moving along at a brisk pace.. the trains in Mumbai are full...the shopping malls are full..the restaurants still need a call-in to book a table... People are not scared... we have become a little more vigilant stemming from the fact that the the law makers and law keepers are a law unto themselves.

On the "NRI" front... Why do you ask for bottled water ? Because you have been used to so called "clean" water straight from the tap that you think cannot be contaminated. We believe that our biological systems are immune to any kind of water that is served.
Why do want 'Air conditioned" cars when you come down here...because you think the air is polluted, there is a lot of heat and dust here.. we believe the heat and dust is what makes us what we are..

If you were to tell me to have bottled water, I may cock a snook.. just as telling me that security here is lax to the extent of people not wanting to visit us.
It is lax... it definitely needs improvement...and it will take time...nothing happens overnight... not after the base has been eroded over years of incompetent and self serving politicians...

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus

in other words ... "we are like that only" argument. Doesnt make people any safer!

On the shooting school children. Last week when I was in Delhi the news of the day was about a 1 and half year old kid beaten to death by a man just because he had touched this guys motor cycle? There are as many crazy people in India as there are here in the US.

Now there are plenty of guns in India too. And the repercussions of using them are a lot less in India.

Security forces are not just incompetent they are also poorly trained and poorly motivated. But you go on living in your "we are like that only " world. You accept mediocrity and you get mediocrity. No wonder you are still enamored by Ganguly!

i disagree

when you can spend less than ten to a hundred times less per capita then you are going to be worse.

only now in the last five or so years we are starting to able to spend a tenth of the money on security.

of course it is not good enough....but you need to give it time.

I will give you an example.....

when the first motorways were being built in UK in the late 1960s, there were TV ads advising ppl not to make u - turns, not to picnic in the central reservations.

today 40 years later we are facing similar problems in highways in India....

it takes time...we will be there as well....but we also have other qualities which are unique.

[Libran]

This is a question to the guys who visit India more often... WN ..DD .. GouravK

Have you ever felt threatened landing in the Airport...driving up to your hotel...hotel to office etc.,
Have you ever looked at any person entering a restaurant suspiciously thinking he may be a terrorist?
Have you looked under the seat of any chair you occupy for any suspicious object ?

If not, then where is the "lack of security" concern coming from ?
And for players like Jacob Oram or a Ponting or a Duncan Fletcher who will have a ring of security around them, talks of feeling unsafe and "anything may happen anytime" kind of stuff is a bit rich.

Anything can happen anytime, anywhere ... why only India ?

And for those who talk of "no incident post 9/11" ... can they list "incidents pre- 9/11" ...

For a country like America.. how many presidential assassinations / attempted assassinations before the Presidential cover became as effective as it is today ?

Can I also proudly claim that post Rajiv *hi...there have been no major political assassinations and hence our security cover for politicians has improved...

Everything is good only till the next big event ...

[gouravk]

if i may answer the question since i also come to india frequently - a big emphatic NO ! I have never felt insecure ever landing in the country or moving about any time I come - and I came the last time after 26/11

[Libran]

if i may answer the question since i also come to india frequently - a big emphatic NO ! I have never felt insecure ever landing in the country or moving about any time I come - and I came the last time after 26/11

have added your name

[dextrous]

well, dear NRIs (like myself), much like Americans could care less about what Indians in India think about their security, NRIs also lose the right to be taken seriously along with their plane tickets. one can have an opinion on everything but that does not mean the people who face the problem every day will take those opinions seriously.

so just because average american is ignorant you want to promote the same ignorance among Indians too? Why dont you try to counter any of the points made. Your post makes no real points ... just a rant.

just a rant...shouldnt you of all people appreciate it?
it is not a matter of ignorance; it is also a matter of ground realities. you can gain all the perspective from reading TOI on the web every day, but that does not translate into living somewhere 365 days a year. but, perhaps your guilty conscience is getting tickled too much

[dextrous]

This is not an NRI - local issue as it is being twisted ( no brainer coming from the originators of these twisted logic)

What needs to be looked at is ...
1. What is the density of population and the police to people ratio ?
2. What is the level of commitment from the Government / the law force
3. The lack of commitment comes from the fact that we have no penalty system for crimes.. nothing that cannot be escaped with a small pay off
4. Lack of commitment comes from low pay scales and lower living conditions and a need to make the quick buck to survive and pay off the seniors in the system

We have been left to fend for ourselves...for years now... from the time of appeasement of minority that started in the 60s and 70s. We have a problem of inside jobs ..again due to illiteracy and the quick buck and the so called commitment to religion and not country

In spite of this and many more core and fundamental lacunae, we are moving along at a brisk pace.. the trains in Mumbai are full...the shopping malls are full..the restaurants still need a call-in to book a table... People are not scared... we have become a little more vigilant stemming from the fact that the the law makers and law keepers are a law unto themselves.

On the "NRI" front... Why do you ask for bottled water ? Because you have been used to so called "clean" water straight from the tap that you think cannot be contaminated. We believe that our biological systems are immune to any kind of water that is served.
Why do want 'Air conditioned" cars when you come down here...because you think the air is polluted, there is a lot of heat and dust here.. we believe the heat and dust is what makes us what we are..

If you were to tell me to have bottled water, I may cock a snook.. just as telling me that security here is lax to the extent of people not wanting to visit us.
It is lax... it definitely needs improvement...and it will take time...nothing happens overnight... not after the base has been eroded over years of incompetent and self serving politicians...

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus

in other words ... "we are like that only" argument. Doesnt make people any safer!

On the shooting school children. Last week when I was in Delhi the news of the day was about a 1 and half year old kid beaten to death by a man just because he had touched this guys motor cycle? There are as many crazy people in India as there are here in the US.

Now there are plenty of guns in India too. And the repercussions of using them are a lot less in India.

Security forces are not just incompetent they are also poorly trained and poorly motivated. But you go on living in your "we are like that only " world. You accept mediocrity and you get mediocrity. No wonder you are still enamored by Ganguly!

so, what's the solution, post on dgs from abroad?

[dextrous]

Have you looked under the seat of any chair you occupy for any suspicious object ?

Whether India or America, I always check under the seat for bombs...nagma neh itni bar dhamki di hai.

[ramshorns]

if i may answer the question since i also come to india frequently - a big emphatic NO ! I have never felt insecure ever landing in the country or moving about any time I come - and I came the last time after 26/11

So have I visited India every year from 2003 and never felt insecure.  That in itself does not make or proves that security or police protection to common man in India is to the satisfactory levels say in comparision to other countries. It is not.  It is a shame some of the recruitment process we have in place and the fitness levels of the cops and how we empower them not to speak of sharing intelligence between agencies and states.  Despite all the attacks over the last 2 years in multiple cities if that is the current state of affairs what does that tell you.

[ramshorns]

This is not an NRI - local issue as it is being twisted ( no brainer coming from the originators of these twisted logic)

What needs to be looked at is ...
1. What is the density of population and the police to people ratio ?
2. What is the level of commitment from the Government / the law force
3. The lack of commitment comes from the fact that we have no penalty system for crimes.. nothing that cannot be escaped with a small pay off
4. Lack of commitment comes from low pay scales and lower living conditions and a need to make the quick buck to survive and pay off the seniors in the system

We have been left to fend for ourselves...for years now... from the time of appeasement of minority that started in the 60s and 70s. We have a problem of inside jobs ..again due to illiteracy and the quick buck and the so called commitment to religion and not country

In spite of this and many more core and fundamental lacunae, we are moving along at a brisk pace.. the trains in Mumbai are full...the shopping malls are full..the restaurants still need a call-in to book a table... People are not scared... we have become a little more vigilant stemming from the fact that the the law makers and law keepers are a law unto themselves.

On the "NRI" front... Why do you ask for bottled water ? Because you have been used to so called "clean" water straight from the tap that you think cannot be contaminated. We believe that our biological systems are immune to any kind of water that is served.
Why do want 'Air conditioned" cars when you come down here...because you think the air is polluted, there is a lot of heat and dust here.. we believe the heat and dust is what makes us what we are..

If you were to tell me to have bottled water, I may cock a snook.. just as telling me that security here is lax to the extent of people not wanting to visit us.
It is lax... it definitely needs improvement...and it will take time...nothing happens overnight... not after the base has been eroded over years of incompetent and self serving politicians...

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus

in other words ... "we are like that only" argument. Doesnt make people any safer!

On the shooting school children. Last week when I was in Delhi the news of the day was about a 1 and half year old kid beaten to death by a man just because he had touched this guys motor cycle? There are as many crazy people in India as there are here in the US.

Now there are plenty of guns in India too. And the repercussions of using them are a lot less in India.

Security forces are not just incompetent they are also poorly trained and poorly motivated. But you go on living in your "we are like that only " world. You accept mediocrity and you get mediocrity. No wonder you are still enamored by Ganguly!

i disagree

when you can spend less than ten to a hundred times less per capita then you are going to be worse.

only now in the last five or so years we are starting to able to spend a tenth of the money on security.

of course it is not good enough....but you need to give it time.

I will give you an example.....

when the first motorways were being built in UK in the late 1960s, there were TV ads advising ppl not to make u - turns, not to picnic in the central reservations.

today 40 years later we are facing similar problems in highways in India....

it takes time...we will be there as well....but we also have other qualities which are unique.

The question here is not the reasons for why we are behind as of today.  It is are we behind.  A person vulnerable to dying on account of a terror attack like the one in Mumbai Taj does not care of the reasons he cares about his life. 

To me over the years Congress ensured we accept mediocrity and learn to live with it with compromises since we are helpless to challenge them.

[ramshorns]

I think India has a far bigger problem than what it understands or is willing to accept. The only thing that's real in India is crime and in every single sphere and walk of life.

As an NRI one tends to view these things more clearly since most times you tend to compare what happens in a similar situation in the adopted country. There is a better point of reference available for a NRI than someone who is in the midst of it all and is getting things done.

So true that.

[xiexie]

This is a question to the guys who visit India more often... WN ..DD .. GouravK

Have you ever felt threatened landing in the Airport...driving up to your hotel...hotel to office etc.,

I have lived for over 35 years in India before leaving it for a place a close by, even today when I land at night in Mumbai Iam advised and I also advise people not to hire black and yellow cabs because people do get waylaid on the highway right outside Sahar Airport-Not saying it does not happen elsewhere but it sure does happen in Mumbai as well.

Have you ever looked at any person entering a restaurant suspiciously thinking he may be a terrorist?
Have you looked under the seat of any chair you occupy for any suspicious object ?

Dont know if you were ever in Mumbai during the riots after Babri Masjid or the bomb blasts subsequently- yes people unconsciously do that a lot. Now during my trips I see it happening more than ever before especially in local trains and in public places where most people have accepted heightened police presence and also are generally wary of total strangers

If not, then where is the "lack of security" concern coming from ?
And for players like Jacob Oram or a Ponting or a Duncan Fletcher who will have a ring of security around them, talks of feeling unsafe and "anything may happen anytime" kind of stuff is a bit rich.

Anything can happen anytime, anywhere ... why only India ?

Good question -The simple answer is in India there are more people with a reason to do something stupid and there are more stupid people with a reason to nothing about the aforementioned people.
And for those who talk of "no incident post 9/11" ... can they list "incidents pre- 9/11" ...

For a country like America.. how many presidential assassinations / attempted assassinations before the Presidential cover became as effective as it is today ?

Can I also proudly claim that post Rajiv *hi...there have been no major political assassinations and hence our security cover for politicians has improved...

Wrong again-very prominent politicians were killed in Punjab, Chattisgarh, Andhra etc all cases of murder but none ever resolved- it does not have to be a president or a PM alone. In the last 12 months alone MMS security has been breached twice.

Everything is good only till the next big event ...

Exactly-the only issue being big events in India happen once every year.....

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[Cover Point]

This is a question to the guys who visit India more often... WN ..DD .. GouravK

Have you ever felt threatened landing in the Airport...driving up to your hotel...hotel to office etc.,
Have you ever looked at any person entering a restaurant suspiciously thinking he may be a terrorist?
Have you looked under the seat of any chair you occupy for any suspicious object ?

If not, then where is the "lack of security" concern coming from ?
And for players like Jacob Oram or a Ponting or a Duncan Fletcher who will have a ring of security around them, talks of feeling unsafe and "anything may happen anytime" kind of stuff is a bit rich.

Anything can happen anytime, anywhere ... why only India ?

And for those who talk of "no incident post 9/11" ... can they list "incidents pre- 9/11" ...

For a country like America.. how many presidential assassinations / attempted assassinations before the Presidential cover became as effective as it is today ?

Can I also proudly claim that post Rajiv *hi...there have been no major political assassinations and hence our security cover for politicians has improved...

Everything is good only till the next big event ...

Since June of last year I have made FIVE trips to India, each trip lasting between 2 and 3 weeks. A significant portion of time if I may say.

the answer is an emphatic yes. I have felt unsafe. In January I stayed at the leela palace and laughed at the security attempts. I ensured that I did not give my passport at the front desk despite them fighting about it. The security itself was a joke. They had about 15 security guys outside the hotel and made sure everything was Xrayed ... but all 15 of them had ONE 303 rifle among them. I remember my boss (who was with me) making the comment that this security would delay the terrorists by about a minute ... as they come in with Klashnikov's and AK47's.

Over the summer I had met Achu and KIC at Cafe Mondy's which is right next to Cafe Leopold which was attacked. Just like I worried a little going into any tall building after 9/11 for a bit, I worry about eating at any public restaurant or staying at any hotel in India.

No. India is not a safe place. Irrespective of our sentimental and emotional pleas

[12th_Man]

I think the question is not whether we visit India and feel safe. I have been visiting from quite some time and feel absolutely safe. I feel more terrorised on the roads from trucks than terrorists.
The question was If terrorists decide to attack you in India and you seek police protection, you will have two havaldaars with you know what. Do you feel safe ? Do you think it is difficult for terrorist to strike in any part so fo india if they decide to as compared to europian countries ?
Now look it from the eyes of visitor. A Gora is a terrorist target these days whereever terrorist can find them as it creates huge international impact. Do we think a gora vistor is safe in India if terrorsits decide to target them?

[Cover Point]

well, dear NRIs (like myself), much like Americans could care less about what Indians in India think about their security, NRIs also lose the right to be taken seriously along with their plane tickets. one can have an opinion on everything but that does not mean the people who face the problem every day will take those opinions seriously.

so just because average american is ignorant you want to promote the same ignorance among Indians too? Why dont you try to counter any of the points made. Your post makes no real points ... just a rant.

just a rant...shouldnt you of all people appreciate it?
it is not a matter of ignorance; it is also a matter of ground realities. you can gain all the perspective from reading TOI on the web every day, but that does not translate into living somewhere 365 days a year. but, perhaps your guilty conscience is getting tickled too much

I do appreciate rants. Have been around enough people to appreciate that thats all they do.

As you know and I have posted .. .  i am posting based on being in India 5 times in the last 8 months each time spending 2-3 weeks on the ground. In homes and in high profile hotels.

So the guilty conscience is only about not getting a special passport to go to Bihar or anywhere east if I may. Have been to other corners (North, south and west). 

[Cover Point]

This is not an NRI - local issue as it is being twisted ( no brainer coming from the originators of these twisted logic)

What needs to be looked at is ...
1. What is the density of population and the police to people ratio ?
2. What is the level of commitment from the Government / the law force
3. The lack of commitment comes from the fact that we have no penalty system for crimes.. nothing that cannot be escaped with a small pay off
4. Lack of commitment comes from low pay scales and lower living conditions and a need to make the quick buck to survive and pay off the seniors in the system

We have been left to fend for ourselves...for years now... from the time of appeasement of minority that started in the 60s and 70s. We have a problem of inside jobs ..again due to illiteracy and the quick buck and the so called commitment to religion and not country

In spite of this and many more core and fundamental lacunae, we are moving along at a brisk pace.. the trains in Mumbai are full...the shopping malls are full..the restaurants still need a call-in to book a table... People are not scared... we have become a little more vigilant stemming from the fact that the the law makers and law keepers are a law unto themselves.

On the "NRI" front... Why do you ask for bottled water ? Because you have been used to so called "clean" water straight from the tap that you think cannot be contaminated. We believe that our biological systems are immune to any kind of water that is served.
Why do want 'Air conditioned" cars when you come down here...because you think the air is polluted, there is a lot of heat and dust here.. we believe the heat and dust is what makes us what we are..

If you were to tell me to have bottled water, I may cock a snook.. just as telling me that security here is lax to the extent of people not wanting to visit us.
It is lax... it definitely needs improvement...and it will take time...nothing happens overnight... not after the base has been eroded over years of incompetent and self serving politicians...

Atleast I have no fear that some guy will walk in with a gun and shoot school children as often as it happens in the US school / college campus

in other words ... "we are like that only" argument. Doesnt make people any safer!

On the shooting school children. Last week when I was in Delhi the news of the day was about a 1 and half year old kid beaten to death by a man just because he had touched this guys motor cycle? There are as many crazy people in India as there are here in the US.

Now there are plenty of guns in India too. And the repercussions of using them are a lot less in India.

Security forces are not just incompetent they are also poorly trained and poorly motivated. But you go on living in your "we are like that only " world. You accept mediocrity and you get mediocrity. No wonder you are still enamored by Ganguly!

so, what's the solution, post on dgs from abroad?

or from India. But really just say what the truth is.

For example if I get on the Metro in Delhi I do make sure to look around to make sure that there are no suspicious things under the seats etc.

[flute]

When I was in India in Sep last year, eventhough I was not feeling insecure, I was definitely being careful and told myself to be extra careful and not go to crowded places etc. I was angry with Indian politicians and system and told myself "I will not be a victim of their inefficiency".

And then came the Ganesh immersion day in Hyd., inspite of my strong desire to go and be part of it, I did not go mainly because I thought it is unsafe and if nothing happens it is because nobody thought of doing anything rather than the security preventing it. I thought I should not be at the mercy of mad people and chose to stay home.

The next day after immersion, I was in a long chat with our driver and below were his exact words translated.
"Sir, you missed it..it was so grand ( vaibhavam) and so great, all thru the roads , there were many arrangements for food and water, a very well organised event..so many ganeshas in different colors and different forms, it was as if the GOD came there in different forms..you won't find it anywhere , you should have come seen it".

For a minute, I felt embarrassed and ashamed that I was not bold enough to go, but then part of above also illustrates the difference in perspective/awareness not the level of boldness. Major portion of it has to do with the indomitable Spirit of India. A civilization which kept rising and rising all thru centuries after repeated exploitation and destruction. When Gazni Muhammed was looting North India, new temples and new centers of culture were being built in other parts of India and it happened again and again, century after century, no sword was able to destroy that spirit, that spirit is uniquely Indian and that spirit is the reason why our civilization survived and is still thriving.
I have seen and known people in India, who lost relatives in riots etc., and rarely they have hatred in their hearts and that is essentially the spirit of India, life goes on.


When some people on this thread find opinions of insecurity silly or far fetched, it is that spirit which is talking, a part of us peobably thinks "what the heck, which place in the world is secure, you can die any minute anyway, why are they scared". I been thru those exact same emotions ( I felt indignant and shouted at a life insurance agent who said my premium went up because I travel to India once a year, I cancelled the policy).


Having said all the above, if anyone on this thread is under the impression that India is somehow safe compared to Europe or US, they are living in a fool's paradise. Actual reality on the ground is different, lot different. Tomorrow I might die in a terror attack in USA, but atleast the perpetrators will be hunted down and made to pay for the act.
Of course the neighborhood and the challenges we face are far more complicated and far more difficult but then that is a matter of a different discussion. We can't expect a Ponting or a Pup to come play in India just because we are facing a difficult situation, they will come if they feel safe. That is the bottomline, Fletcher or Ponting or Pup have every right to talk about security and take that into consideration when coming to India, what happened in Pak definitely makes matter worse for us unfortunately.

[dextrous]

well, dear NRIs (like myself), much like Americans could care less about what Indians in India think about their security, NRIs also lose the right to be taken seriously along with their plane tickets. one can have an opinion on everything but that does not mean the people who face the problem every day will take those opinions seriously.

so just because average american is ignorant you want to promote the same ignorance among Indians too? Why dont you try to counter any of the points made. Your post makes no real points ... just a rant.

just a rant...shouldnt you of all people appreciate it?
it is not a matter of ignorance; it is also a matter of ground realities. you can gain all the perspective from reading TOI on the web every day, but that does not translate into living somewhere 365 days a year. but, perhaps your guilty conscience is getting tickled too much

I do appreciate rants. Have been around enough Biharis to appreciate that thats all they do.

As you know and I have posted .. .  i am posting based on being in India 5 times in the last 8 months each time spending 2-3 weeks on the ground. In homes and in high profile hotels.

Congratulations. I don't read your posts usually, otherwise I'd have know your view is from the ivory towers of India 

And once again, I'm ignoring your bigoted stuff...trying to send a subtle hint that perhaps you shouldn't keep posting about regional stuff bc apparently you're just a nice hearty punjabi guy who has a pompous and insecure e-persona. maybe you don't get enough perspective about being a bigot being so close to the ground...maybe need to spend some more time in Chicago with Obama.

[Cover Point]

well, dear NRIs (like myself), much like Americans could care less about what Indians in India think about their security, NRIs also lose the right to be taken seriously along with their plane tickets. one can have an opinion on everything but that does not mean the people who face the problem every day will take those opinions seriously.

so just because average american is ignorant you want to promote the same ignorance among Indians too? Why dont you try to counter any of the points made. Your post makes no real points ... just a rant.

just a rant...shouldnt you of all people appreciate it?
it is not a matter of ignorance; it is also a matter of ground realities. you can gain all the perspective from reading TOI on the web every day, but that does not translate into living somewhere 365 days a year. but, perhaps your guilty conscience is getting tickled too much

I do appreciate rants. Have been around enough Biharis to appreciate that thats all they do.

As you know and I have posted .. .  i am posting based on being in India 5 times in the last 8 months each time spending 2-3 weeks on the ground. In homes and in high profile hotels.

Congratulations. I don't read your posts usually, otherwise I'd have know your view is from the ivory towers of India 

And once again, I'm ignoring your bigoted stuff...trying to send a subtle hint that perhaps you shouldn't keep posting about regional stuff bc apparently you're just a nice hearty punjabi guy who has a pompous and insecure e-persona. maybe you don't get enough perspective about being a bigot being so close to the ground...maybe need to spend some more time in Chicago with Obama.

Looks like the bullet hit the spot. Sulag gayi