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ramshorns

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2008, 09:07:38 AM »
I agree. Signatures do help. But a strong letter adressed to the President - no she is useless - to the PM and Advani and to be published in key news papers would help. Of course if it is endorsed by TiE and other Indian associations so much the better. Perhaps one of the better writers of this DG such as CLR could draft something and others contribute?

sorry, signatures and petitions are meaningless. indian political structure of parliamentary democracy cannot change. however, buying ad space in key newspapers and running letters would go a long way...but im not sure if the costs are prohitbitive
I agree totally.  To me they serve no prupose.

We all know the Late Karkare will always be a hero for what he did that day to take on the terrorists.

Unfortunately leaders like Manmohan and Sonia who put power and self before the national interest will let such sacrifices die.

And leaders like Modi will try to capitalize on the death to get votes by turning up for a photo-op (after being specifically refused thrice by the family)...this after making wild allegations about the same Karkare (anti-national, political stooge, breaking up the Indian army) just 24-48 hours back.

KIC...I don't have any strong feelings about Indian politicians besides my hate for nepotism and monarchy of congress. heck, i was a fan of dr. singh back in the day before he became a stooge. it sickens me to see grown men and women act so servile.

...but i digress...

im finding what you;'re saying about modi (and replace with any CM here) bizzarre...

ya he opposed the ATS chief for politcal mileage (i have no idea about that case, havent followed it enough)
but appreciates his courage in death.

could not someone who pokes fun of murali's bowling also admire his courage if he were to bowl with a broken jaw? why can't these two things co-exist? whether he did it for political mileage or not (he probably did, he's a politician) simply doesnt matter...thats what politicians do, get political mileage
Exactly the point!!!!

It would be naive for someone to think that Modi is flawless.

Certain things in India are a given.  It does not take a genius to figure them out.

However in Karkare's case personally after watching Modi's speech I felt he was very earnest and sincere in his feelings.
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ramshorns

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2008, 09:16:05 AM »
I agree. Signatures do help. But a strong letter adressed to the President - no she is useless - to the PM and Advani and to be published in key news papers would help. Of course if it is endorsed by TiE and other Indian associations so much the better. Perhaps one of the better writers of this DG such as CLR could draft something and others contribute?

sorry, signatures and petitions are meaningless. indian political structure of parliamentary democracy cannot change. however, buying ad space in key newspapers and running letters would go a long way...but im not sure if the costs are prohitbitive
I agree totally.  To me they serve no prupose.

We all know the Late Karkare will always be a hero for what he did that day to take on the terrorists.

Unfortunately leaders like Manmohan and Sonia who put power and self before the national interest will let such sacrifices die.

And leaders like Modi will try to capitalize on the death to get votes by turning up for a photo-op (after being specifically refused thrice by the family)...this after making wild allegations about the same Karkare (anti-national, political stooge, breaking up the Indian army) just 24-48 hours back.
You may think so but I feel Modi was earnest in this case despite Karkare family's reservations.
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ramshorns

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2008, 09:21:45 AM »
Quote
But under the same BJP rule we had also Kargill, attack on the Parliament, attacks in Kolkatta etc. And under the same BJP we had the mayhems in Gujarat and recently in Orissa and Karnataka. So, why are they BETTER?
I do not think Orissa and Karnataka are in anyway as siginficant as what India is facing under the wrath of the Islamic terrorists.

Why not?

This is the basic problem. If you undermine the administrative or political or security machinery on one front - however insignificant - that machinery will ultimately remain ineffective in even the bigger issues.
No some pressing issues get more priority over the others even in death.  What happended in Orissa and Kar. or Andhra and Bihar with Naxal problems can be curbed and attributed to local problems or within as opposed to the Islamic milatancy which is far more reaching and several notches serious.  That gets a priority in my books which does not mean that other issues ought to be overlooked or ignored.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2008, 09:41:56 AM »
I agree. Signatures do help. But a strong letter adressed to the President - no she is useless - to the PM and Advani and to be published in key news papers would help. Of course if it is endorsed by TiE and other Indian associations so much the better. Perhaps one of the better writers of this DG such as CLR could draft something and others contribute?

sorry, signatures and petitions are meaningless. indian political structure of parliamentary democracy cannot change. however, buying ad space in key newspapers and running letters would go a long way...but im not sure if the costs are prohitbitive
I agree totally.  To me they serve no prupose.

We all know the Late Karkare will always be a hero for what he did that day to take on the terrorists.

Unfortunately leaders like Manmohan and Sonia who put power and self before the national interest will let such sacrifices die.

And leaders like Modi will try to capitalize on the death to get votes by turning up for a photo-op (after being specifically refused thrice by the family)...this after making wild allegations about the same Karkare (anti-national, political stooge, breaking up the Indian army) just 24-48 hours back.

KIC...I don't have any strong feelings about Indian politicians besides my hate for nepotism and monarchy of congress. heck, i was a fan of dr. singh back in the day before he became a stooge. it sickens me to see grown men and women act so servile.

...but i digress...

im finding what you;'re saying about modi (and replace with any CM here) bizzarre...

ya he opposed the ATS chief for politcal mileage (i have no idea about that case, havent followed it enough)
but appreciates his courage in death.

could not someone who pokes fun of murali's bowling also admire his courage if he were to bowl with a broken jaw? why can't these two things co-exist? whether he did it for political mileage or not (he probably did, he's a politician) simply doesnt matter...thats what politicians do, get political mileage
Exactly the point!!!!

It would be naive for someone to think that Modi is flawless.

Certain things in India are a given.  It does not take a genius to figure them out.

However in Karkare's case personally after watching Modi's speech I felt he was very earnest and sincere in his feelings.

Yeah, right! He is earnest and sincere BECAUSE of who Karkare was going against this time. Such selective reasoning is not what I want from a leader. This is not just a normal flaw. It is a very serious issue.
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Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!

keep-it-cool

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2008, 09:43:25 AM »
I agree. Signatures do help. But a strong letter adressed to the President - no she is useless - to the PM and Advani and to be published in key news papers would help. Of course if it is endorsed by TiE and other Indian associations so much the better. Perhaps one of the better writers of this DG such as CLR could draft something and others contribute?

sorry, signatures and petitions are meaningless. indian political structure of parliamentary democracy cannot change. however, buying ad space in key newspapers and running letters would go a long way...but im not sure if the costs are prohitbitive
I agree totally.  To me they serve no prupose.

We all know the Late Karkare will always be a hero for what he did that day to take on the terrorists.

Unfortunately leaders like Manmohan and Sonia who put power and self before the national interest will let such sacrifices die.

And leaders like Modi will try to capitalize on the death to get votes by turning up for a photo-op (after being specifically refused thrice by the family)...this after making wild allegations about the same Karkare (anti-national, political stooge, breaking up the Indian army) just 24-48 hours back.
You may think so but I feel Modi was earnest in this case despite Karkare family's reservations.

Reservations? Sir, they were just being polite. And earnest? Well...shameless is how I would put it. Anyway that is fine. I guess we'll not agree on this one.
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Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!

pipsqueak

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2008, 09:44:21 AM »
From a glass house in Gujarat
Rajeev PI
Posted: Dec 03, 2008 at 2330 hrs IST

No Clout, and an Identity CrisisIf the quiet, stately angst of a smoking Taj will forever remain its defining picture, an equally lasting memory of the Mumbai Terror strike may be the way tragedy brinksmanship of the political kind began taking a hit. Perhaps it’s only a poetic coincidence that the shamed and the shunned belonged to all sides of the spectrum — Left, Right and Centre. If Marxist heavyweight V.S. Achuthanandan was heckled in Bangalore when he made a belated but politically expedient trip to the home of Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan, where the dead soldier’s father refused even to see him, no less red-faced was saffron poster boy Narendra Modi, after he gatecrashed the home of slain ATS chief Hemant Karkare, even after being refused thrice. Another sign was Congressman Vilasrao Deshmukh inviting wrath for guiding massacre tourists in before the blood had dried.
Perhaps the best example of how things work at that level could come from neighbouring Gujarat. For once, the official Narendra Modi hype machine forgot something when the BJP’s anti-terror mascot flew into Mumbai last Thursday, Rs 1 crore cash-for-blood in kurta pocket:  that cash-and-carry may not work every time.


To be fair, cash had often worked in Gujarat — sometime ago, he had effectively leveraged even the gang rape of a Dalit school child, throwing Rs 1 lakh to the victim much before the courts even decided if there was a rape. The cash-for-rape facility, however, was not extended to the many rape victims of the 2002 communal riots in Gujarat — women who dared not even complain.
But Modi did prove at the Karkare home in Dadar on Thursday that there is no stopping him, even away from home turf:  He simply drove down there after the bereaved officer’s kin thrice declined requests to meet him, while Hemant’s bullet-riddled body lay in a morgue.

No matter that Modi has been busy heaping mud on the Mumbai ATS that Karkare himself led, once it took the shroud off the Hindutva face of terror in Malegaon. For weeks before the Mumbai terror strike, Modi the vote-catcher, at assembly poll meetings, had been alleging that the same ATS was framing “innocent” army officers to demoralise the Indian army, playing minion to the Congress, even that its arrests did more harm to the country than Pakistan could.

And no matter that his own party, still trying to come to terms with the devastating Malegaon findings, debated hard and chose not to mention Karkare and his dead ATS officers in its condolence resolution on the terror attack.

When he flayed the prime minister’s address to the country soon after the Mumbai terror strike saying it was just not adequate, some of Modi’s saffron comrades like chief minister Prem Kumar Dhumal in Himachal Pradesh, may have openly disgreed with his attitude in a national crisis. But Modi is not known to hold back on free advice — even if he, at times, may appear to need some himself.

Consider: “It seems the UPA Government is still not serious about terrorism even after so many terror strikes in the country”, he wrote to the PM when terror gripped Mumbai. This was even while reports were pouring in about the Gujarat coast’s apparent link to the strike. When Modi was writing it, all ten marine police stations that the Centre funded to set up two years ago and handed to his government to maintain and guard the coast, were working only on paper — they have no equipment, not even boats.

The Centre had paid Modi’s government to buy speedboats for joint patrol and reconnaissance with central forces along the coast. The latter, instead, spent it on a few slow boats. After the Comptroller and Auditor General cracked the whip, the state government responded: “We got those boats to guide fishermen, not to chase terrorists”. About a quarter of posts in Gujarat police lie vacant. A considerable chunk of the force is made up of ad hoc appointees on contract, called Lok Rakshaks and paid Rs 2500 a month.

Gujarat’s intelligence machinery is apparently another problem. A retired top cop says it has only notionally improved from a few years ago. That was when the spooks would wait in their jeeps near newspaper offices in the wee hours for the first copies printed . They would rush to type out the day’s “intelligence” reports for the chief minister to read early in the morning, before he got down to reading newspapers. “Agar woh hamare state mein ayega tho chun chun ke marunga,” Modi had declared to terrorists the world over in Mumbai, after the 2006 Mumbai train blasts. Two years later the Ahmedabad serial blasts in July killed 59 people.

If Modi wasted no time rushing to Mumbai last Thursday to make his point with the Rs 1 crore for slain cops, scores of seriously injured in the Ahmedabad blasts, and the kin of the dead in the subsequent Modasa blast have yet to get central aid — all because the state machinery has been sleeping on the procedures. Modi’s cops were remarkably quick to nab the accused in the Ahmedabad blasts. But they claim to have no clue about who set off the Modasa blast, which had coincided in almost copycat fashion with the saffron-linked Malegaon blast the very same day: timing, location, methods, even the vehicle used. And going by the pattern, these may not be the last of the great bitter ironies.

rajeev.pi@expressindia.com

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/from-a-glass-house-in-gujarat/393347/0
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keep-it-cool

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2008, 09:49:31 AM »
Quote
But under the same BJP rule we had also Kargill, attack on the Parliament, attacks in Kolkatta etc. And under the same BJP we had the mayhems in Gujarat and recently in Orissa and Karnataka. So, why are they BETTER?
I do not think Orissa and Karnataka are in anyway as siginficant as what India is facing under the wrath of the Islamic terrorists.

Why not?

This is the basic problem. If you undermine the administrative or political or security machinery on one front - however insignificant - that machinery will ultimately remain ineffective in even the bigger issues.
No some pressing issues get more priority over the others even in death.  What happended in Orissa and Kar. or Andhra and Bihar with Naxal problems can be curbed and attributed to local problems or within as opposed to the Islamic milatancy which is far more reaching and several notches serious.  That gets a priority in my books which does not mean that other issues ought to be overlooked or ignored.

In degree, at this point, yes. That does not mean one does not nip the others in the bud and promptly at that. If only one had done so for terrorism by Muslims earlier.

However, my point is different. I am not comparing the degree. I am saying if you undermine law and order in any one issue, you undermine it across the board. Partly by sowing seeds for some to take the law into their own hands and partly by making people lose faith in the state machinery.

The whole of India today is a classic case study.
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Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!

vincent

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2008, 10:06:14 AM »


Terrorists did not come to Mumbai first

Vicky Nanjappa in Mumbai | December 04, 2008 | 14:25 IST


Did the terrorists who struck at financial capital of India a week back come to Mumbai first? The answer is no. Mumbai Police Commissioner Hassan Gafoor at a press conference said that the 'ten' men had not come to Mumbai first. He however refused to reveal any further details on the same and said that investigations will reveal all at a later stage.

The interrogation of the arrested terrorist, Ajmal Kasab has now revealed that he and his team mates had set off from Karachi with a specific plan of attacking Mumbai. However they had not come to Mumbai directly. Instead these men went to Gujarat first and only then headed to the financial capital.

Both the officials of the Mumbai Anti Terrorist Squad as well the Intelligence Bureau, who are interrogating Kasab simultaneously, are now trying to ascertain whether these men stopped for a short while or they stayed there for a day before heading for Mumbai. An IB official told rediff.com that preliminary investigations reveal that there were more than ten persons on the boat which came into Mumbai and on their way they may have dropped some members in Gujarat.

An ATS official said that these are early stages of investigation. "However, we are now sure that the boat from Karachi did not come to Mumbai first. We have alerted our counterparts in Gujarat and questioning some fishermen in this regard. We do not want to reveal too much as it could cause a sense of panic. However let me assure you that the situation is under control and the security agencies of the respective states are on high alert," the official said.

The IB says that they have received specific information that the Lashkar-e-Tayiba had plans of carrying out a series of attacks in India. The targets were Mumbai, Delhi and Gujarat and several men have been trained for this. While the boat which came in from Karachi may have dropped off a few men at Gujarat, some of the militants (14) could have moved towards New Delhi to carry out a similar attack. The security agencies in both Gujarat and New Delhi have been sounded off following this revelations, investigating agencies say.

The IB says that apart from Mumbai and New Delhi, Gujarat is on the Lashkar hit list. A series of attacks have been planned on the state. In LeT training camps in Muzafarabad and Karachi, the video on the Gujarat riots is the most popular tool used to brainwash youth and motivate them into the deadly terror path.

Meanwhile, an officer of the Anti-Terrorism Squad in Ahmedabad told rediff.com, "Our preliminary investigations have not revealed of any terrorists landing in Gujarat. We are still taking the matter seriously. Our deeper investigations are still on and we will not spare any effort to know if the terrorists from Pakistan have used Gujarat as a transit route. We are doing speedy investigations into the entire issue of the coastal security breach."
 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
URL for this article:
http://www.rediff.com///news/2008/dec/04terrorists-did-not-come-to-mumbai-first.htm
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keep-it-cool

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2008, 10:43:10 AM »
How is that possible? Modi bhaiyya has been so efficient that Gujarat ke coast pe koi parinda bhi pankh nahin maar sakta ...parinda kya cheez hai .. a crack force of Mithunda, Rajni, Chiranjeevi & Kamaal Khan can also not do anything
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Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!

dextrous

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2008, 04:03:41 PM »
How is that possible? Modi bhaiyya has been so efficient that Gujarat ke coast pe koi parinda bhi pankh nahin maar sakta ...parinda kya cheez hai .. a crack force of Mithunda, Rajni, Chiranjeevi & Kamaal Khan can also not do anything

So now CM should protect the country's borders?! Kic, you okay? maybe palin is right...
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kban1

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2008, 05:24:40 PM »
How is that possible? Modi bhaiyya has been so efficient that Gujarat ke coast pe koi parinda bhi pankh nahin maar sakta ...parinda kya cheez hai .. a crack force of Mithunda, Rajni, Chiranjeevi & Kamaal Khan can also not do anything

So now CM should protect the country's borders?! Kic, you okay? maybe palin is right...

Doesnt kic's statemenet here make sense in light of the article pip has posted ?

Consider the context --a lot of guys are proposing Modi's name as the panacea for all ills, as the "efficient" leader with a "strong" administrative record who would solve all our security woes.

And yet despite all his bluster, in his own state, he has failed to create the marine force that he was provided federal funds for almost 2 years ago. Not only that, the few boats that his govt bought were for escorting fishermen, not chasing terrorists (the original mandate).

In light of this the sarcasm in kic's posts, I believe is just desserts.
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justforkix

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2008, 05:32:10 PM »
if we really want to do something about this then we have to leave our plush lounges, in our millions, go to india and provide an alternative to the current politicians and thereby take a stand against the inept politicians.

everything else is either utopian or rhetoric.

in other threads we are arguing about who is less inept!  ;D, for heavens sake.

it means we give up our lives as they are and do something about it.

I cannot. Hence may be called unpatriotic by some.

everything else is token and has very little value in real terms. it is not going to ring any change but allow us to feel happy in our plush lounges and feel that we did something.

I agree with you 100% !!!
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12th_Man

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2008, 05:38:38 PM »
if we really want to do something about this then we have to leave our plush lounges, in our millions, go to india and provide an alternative to the current politicians and thereby take a stand against the inept politicians.

everything else is either utopian or rhetoric.

in other threads we are arguing about who is less inept!  ;D, for heavens sake.

it means we give up our lives as they are and do something about it.

I cannot. Hence may be called unpatriotic by some.

everything else is token and has very little value in real terms. it is not going to ring any change but allow us to feel happy in our plush lounges and feel that we did something.

I agree with you 100% !!!
Looks like i missed the original post but noted after JFK's applaud. This is exactly what i felt when I started detailed thinking about it. Thoughts well captured.
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ThankYouChappel

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2008, 07:40:39 PM »
I think best some of us can do is, make the folks.. our folks vote.. and vote for the ones who could make sure that there is a huge cost to take up terror.. internally and externally.. and vote the pseudo secularists out..
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12th_Man

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2008, 07:53:41 PM »
I think best some of us can do is, make the folks.. our folks vote.. and vote for the ones who could make sure that there is a huge cost to take up terror.. internally and externally.. and vote the pseudo secularists out..
Vote for whom?
When Mulayam, Mayawati are among the options whom would you pick? Andhon me kanna Raja.
In a country of over 1.2 bln people with exceptional talent in adminstration and strategy we let the decisions made by those who are busy naming and renaming parks.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2009, 08:23:36 AM »
Anyway, I was at the Gateway yesterday ...and while it started out as a good effort (no one can question the intent of the organisers) it was total chaos thereafter with equal number or rowdies out there trying to feel up the women in the crowds etc ...it reminded me of my one visit to the Gateway on a new year's eve.

Having said that, it was good to see that so many people did take time out and turned up. I hope something good comes out of all this rage and enthusiasm.

Sad ...but all that rage and enthusiasm just lasted for those many days ..when it was fashionable to show one's anger.

Ultimately, Mumbai had a measly 40% turnout for the polls. 40%??? And these guys want change? Some of the socialites also sought to justify this by blaming the election commission for holding the polls just a day before a "tempting long weekend".
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Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!

achutank

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2009, 07:56:31 AM »
if we really want to do something about this then we have to leave our plush lounges, in our millions, go to india and provide an alternative to the current politicians and thereby take a stand against the inept politicians.

everything else is either utopian or rhetoric.

in other threads we are arguing about who is less inept!  ;D, for heavens sake.

it means we give up our lives as they are and do something about it.

I cannot. Hence may be called unpatriotic by some.

everything else is token and has very little value in real terms. it is not going to ring any change but allow us to feel happy in our plush lounges and feel that we did something.

I agree with you 100% !!!
Looks like i missed the original post but noted after JFK's applaud. This is exactly what i felt when I started detailed thinking about it. Thoughts well captured.

this is just another form of reverse cynicism, just a populist post among the elitist ones
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 08:01:06 AM by achutank »
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keep-it-cool

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2009, 08:49:26 AM »
http://greatbong.net/2009/05/04/the-middle-finger/#more-682

The Middle Finger

Amitabh shows his middle finger to the nation. Dhoni shows his middle finger to Amitabh. And urban India shows its middle finger to participatory democracy by rocking the vote with abysmal attendance. (Bombay does 43%, Bangalore does 46%, Lucknow does 35% [link])

While there are some arguments (a collection of them here)why this number is deflated (the actual proportion of people voting is claimed to be higher), this is still a rather abysmal.  As an aside, if we had the figures, you would probably find that the proportion of people with high-school degrees who voted in urban areas would be much much lesser than even the 40%]

The real reason most educated urbanites are reluctant to vote is , I believe,  it takes way too much effort to get out of bed and stand in a long line on a hot day. Having spent much of one’s adult life standing in various sorts of queues— electric bill, motor vehicles, LPG—this is one queue where one’s presence is optional. Hence it is avoided.

I do not know how the situation is in other cities. But growing up in Kolkata, the CPM as part of its “scientific rigging” would intentionally play on people’s “lyadh” (Bengali for ennui) and seek to dissuade them from voting through various techniques all which worked on somehow making the bhodrolok’s patience snap. People would be made to stand in the blazing sun and the lines would be “stuffed” by fake voters whose role was to make the queue longer than it was. And when these fake voters would be challenged, more time would be lost in the resolution of these challenges in the process making the bhodrolok even more impatient at which point of time he would say “Durr…..I am outta here”. Of course in Calcutta this would not bring down the polling per-cent as for every person who went back to his Rui maacher lunch, the “party zombies” would quietly slip in and cast his vote. [The per-centage voting in Calcutta is always high and that is because dead people, imaginary people and the same people all vote.]

Of course lethargy is never the official reason for “not voting”. A majority would give the logic as “All the candidates are equally bad.” While this is of course true, it still is an excuse. There is always a choice. There is always a candidate who is slightly less worse than the others. Again not in absolute terms but comparatively.

The problem is we as educated urbanites , and this I am sad to say is a problem which afflicts the less-than-35s even more, are not prepared to invest the time and the effort to do the background work needed to make a choice. Instead there is the intellectually lazy catch-all “I hate all of them” which, sorry to say, is a cop-out.


For instance, if I had been present in Kolkata, I would have been presented with a choice between “Didi” and some CPM stooge (these are the two who have any chance of winning Calcutta South). Now frankly this is like a choice between Agarkar and McCullum on current form and a “I will stay home” seems to be an attractive course of action. However I would tell myself this (keeping it very very simple because I am lazy myself): In as much as I detest Mamata and what she has done for my state, a vote for CPM at the center (this “at the center” is very important) means either of two things. 1) A vote for a Third front Prime Minister like Mayawati or Karat and 2) An unstable coalition partner who would be trying to paralyze the government at every opportunity, to the detriment of the national interest. In this context, my choice becomes clear even though it is a most disquieting decision.

In contrast to urban India, rural areas have and will keep showing a high voter turn-out. First of all, the average life of the villager is much harsher than that of the city-dweller which is why standing in line isn’t that big a deal to him. Secondly a villager, more in need of basic necessities than the “city mouse” is far more dependent on the government and so by extension on his elected representative. With primary demands like power, water and a school, electing  the “right guy” is much more important to the villager than it is for the urban elite who always considers himself to be surviving “despite” the system and not because of it. Most of the time in rural India, the “right guy” is simply the caste brother/sister. The strong caste loyalty, accompanied by the associated expectation of hand-me-downs to caste-mates, makes the emotional connect with the candidate so high that people will do whatever it takes to get his/her vote in. And when the caste brotherhood does not exist (you do need the votes of the opposing caste also) or needs to be “supplemented”, the connect is made through fear of the candidate (If I don’t see your sorry ass at the polling station, you know what’s coming) or small tokens of gratitude (a hundred rupee note or a bottle of country liquor or a blanket).

In the more detached and impersonal urban environment, the candidate is hardly ever worth the effort of voting. (Political parties sometimes try to create this emotional connect with the candidate in urban areas by nominating film-stars, which is something they reason that people in cities do care for.)

Even in urban areas, the poorer sections like migrant labor or slum-dwellers, are far more organized and successful in identifying their “issues” principally because their issues are more well-defined, simpler and more easily pandered to (legalization of their encroachment on private/government land and the continued availability of free amenities for example) than those of the educated elites (typically vague and “unrealizable” things like honesty, security,accountability).

Vimal-da (current MP): “  I negotiated with the police when they came to arrest the president of Four Friends Boys Club. For what did the cops come? Because he was merely collecting subscriptions in a persuasive way from those big building dwellers. Did Nantoo-da come to help you boys then? No he was not even here in the constituency [Applause].”

Nantoo-da (prospective MP): “Last time you did not vote for me. Look at what happened. The Electric Company came here and cut off your power. Do you know why? Because your present MP, Vimal “Dada” is in the pocket of the Electric Company. I say the “people” have right to free power. [Applause]. This is not stealing. These are your rights [Applause] Vote for me this time and I will hold my ears in front of all of you if any ****** from the Power Company dare enters this colony. [Thunderous Applause]”

Thus the poorer sections of the urban population have consistently exhibited a better understanding of realpolitik and the actual way Indian democracy works. In response to this however, the urban elite petulantly sulks in the corner saying “Our votes do not count. The politician  knows he will get the votes of the slum-dwellers. They do not even bother canvassing in our areas.” Of course he does not. He knows that it is not worth his while to appeal to a group who in any case are not going to vote.

Coming back to the present election, what has amused me is the “we-never-saw-that-coming” surprise at the low voter-turnout this year, an outrage that has found a lot of expression in the media. How could this happen after the public outpouring of awareness after 26/11? What happened to the “No More?” What happened to the “Be the Change”? What happened to the josh of urban youth which manifested itself through candle-light vigils, forwarded email petitions and SMS campaigns? Was this all a “false dawn” of “Jag Utha Youngistan”?

I dont know about you but I am not surprised at all.  I am not surprised that urban security, which was such a hot-button topic not more than 6 months ago, did not become a galvanizing issue, strong enough to bring people in front of the booth. This is because pulp activism, the kind of which we saw after 26/11,  is never sustainable.”Real” change never comes from the kind of retributive violence glorified as the “change” in Rang De Basanti or the kind of touchy-feely *hian wish-wash of “Munnabhai”. Fantasy films are all right but then people expect real problems to be solved as beautifully and as quickly. When that does not happen in real life, there is disappointment and a corresponding detachment from the process.

The fact remains that real change and true political awareness comes from education and from reflection, both of which takes time and effort. Now where do urban youth have the time in between Roadies, Mumbai Indians vs Deccan Chargers, Saregama, Om Shanti Om, Iron Maiden concerts, trance parties and “chillin with ma peeps”?And how will people be aware of what the issues are when they open Page 3 first and then move on to the Movie pages?

If any further proof is needed as to how little the urban educated care for politics, look at how feeble the market demand is for serious discussions on the topic. A casual surf through the television channels, even the news ones, convinces me of the fact. Most of the “political” programming that I see are usually very perfunctory, either pandering to pulp activism (”Politicians have let the country down” Text 01 if you agree and Text 02 if you do not) or just mere hot air where an anchor shouts down three or four babbling spokesmen and a few representatives from a mostly clueless studio audience. And this too happens when a ticker runs at the bottom informing us that Aamir Khan just informed the nation that he has a dog named Shahrukh.

So what is the solution?  Making voting compulsory, a supremely totalitarian solution to promote democracy (oh what irony), is definitely not the answer. [The proposed measure has that Rang De Basanti-type instant-effect, Maggi-two-minute flavor to it, which is why it is all wrong]. The solution to this problem I gather, like solutions to all the big problems, will be arrived through slow and evolutionary processes and will necessarily involve education, awareness and a hopeful change of mindset wherein the urbanites realize that when one decides to stay at home and show the middle finger to the democratic process, the process flips the bird back at you.

With double the vengeance.

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achutank

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2009, 10:30:29 AM »
agree with great bong.

evolution is what will take care of things. if you see the way european society is evolving, the accountability and the education of the people in government is very high, this from the same countries that burnt women at the stake for witchcraft and caused world war 2. education brings accountability.

but what kind of education? a system hungry education wanting to swallow more mandarins ona single-minded plan of improving social status (of course disguised as MBAs and engineers)? or education that helps each child discover his dharma (-his true calling-) and his seva (-his contribution to those disabler than him) and thus where the child ends up doing the thing he loves and gets paid for it and therefore looks forward, more often than not, to the day? the indian system of education in theory (and some part in practice) was geared to the second where respect for a person's individuality was tempered with the spirit of common good.

so to answer the upwardly mobile birds dying to do a rang de basanti - here is what you can do. invest in schools that have value-based education where sports and creativity, participation and community are given as much importance as geogarphy and algebra. it is ok if you dont vote, but make sure that more of the next generation are educated in the right way. they will make their vote count.

a few schools that do that already - chinmayananda schools, jk foundation schools
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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2009, 07:24:33 PM »
agree with great bong.

evolution is what will take care of things. if you see the way european society is evolving, the accountability and the education of the people in government is very high, this from the same countries that burnt women at the stake for witchcraft and caused world war 2. education brings accountability.

but what kind of education? a system hungry education wanting to swallow more mandarins ona single-minded plan of improving social status (of course disguised as MBAs and engineers)? or education that helps each child discover his dharma (-his true calling-) and his seva (-his contribution to those disabler than him) and thus where the child ends up doing the thing he loves and gets paid for it and therefore looks forward, more often than not, to the day? the indian system of education in theory (and some part in practice) was geared to the second where respect for a person's individuality was tempered with the spirit of common good.

so to answer the upwardly mobile birds dying to do a rang de basanti - here is what you can do. invest in schools that have value-based education where sports and creativity, participation and community are given as much importance as geogarphy and algebra. it is ok if you dont vote, but make sure that more of the next generation are educated in the right way. they will make their vote count.

a few schools that do that already - chinmayananda schools, jk foundation schools



there was an indian system of education? according to the "eminent historians" of india, there existed no such thing. read on.

http://www.hindu.com/mag/2009/05/03/stories/2009050350100400.htm

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achutank

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Re: LET US DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2009, 01:20:36 PM »
agree with great bong.

evolution is what will take care of things. if you see the way european society is evolving, the accountability and the education of the people in government is very high, this from the same countries that burnt women at the stake for witchcraft and caused world war 2. education brings accountability.

but what kind of education? a system hungry education wanting to swallow more mandarins ona single-minded plan of improving social status (of course disguised as MBAs and engineers)? or education that helps each child discover his dharma (-his true calling-) and his seva (-his contribution to those disabler than him) and thus where the child ends up doing the thing he loves and gets paid for it and therefore looks forward, more often than not, to the day? the indian system of education in theory (and some part in practice) was geared to the second where respect for a person's individuality was tempered with the spirit of common good.

so to answer the upwardly mobile birds dying to do a rang de basanti - here is what you can do. invest in schools that have value-based education where sports and creativity, participation and community are given as much importance as geogarphy and algebra. it is ok if you dont vote, but make sure that more of the next generation are educated in the right way. they will make their vote count.

a few schools that do that already - chinmayananda schools, jk foundation schools



there was an indian system of education? according to the "eminent historians" of india, there existed no such thing. read on.

http://www.hindu.com/mag/2009/05/03/stories/2009050350100400.htm


the article was only replying to the "erroneous" claim of colleges and lower castes.

the indian system of education is the gurukula system ( i am not disputing the fact that this was open to higher castes) and the buddhist monastery way, both relying on the relationship between guru and shishya and the comunity way of life. the ashram first expected you to learn contributory work before imparting skills according to aptitude and only then was knowledge of the sciences and arts given. therefore the sense of service came first before the ego of knowledge
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