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[pipsqueak]

for all those discussing the ins and outs of the extra 'h' let me tell you that the extra 'h' in its inclusion or exclusion matters very little. the southies see it in a different light than the northerners. each is correct in their interpretation. in fact, I learnt as part of the original discussion in this DG that latha and lata were the same... dont jump on me here lata in north indian hindi and latha in south indian hindi. if I was not part of this DG I may never have learnt the difference.

as a joke jawagal should have spelled his name as Srinathh, sorry, Shreenathh, otherwise his name sounds like a specific nut.

eh? latha is correct transliteration of the actual pronunciation..there is no  hindi telugu or tamil there..lata is simply aping of english ways of spelling things and not correct transliteration

huh? Shouldn't you follow the English way when you spell something in English?

how do you northies pronounce "data"? 

[teamindia]

for all those discussing the ins and outs of the extra 'h' let me tell you that the extra 'h' in its inclusion or exclusion matters very little. the southies see it in a different light than the northerners. each is correct in their interpretation. in fact, I learnt as part of the original discussion in this DG that latha and lata were the same... dont jump on me here lata in north indian hindi and latha in south indian hindi. if I was not part of this DG I may never have learnt the difference.

as a joke jawagal should have spelled his name as Srinathh, sorry, Shreenathh, otherwise his name sounds like a specific nut.

eh? latha is correct transliteration of the actual pronunciation..there is no  hindi telugu or tamil there..lata is simply aping of english ways of spelling things and not correct transliteration

huh? Shouldn't you follow the English way when you spell something in English?

how do you northies pronounce "data"? 

Data - the English word? Or data - the Hindi word?   
 

[pipsqueak]

for all those discussing the ins and outs of the extra 'h' let me tell you that the extra 'h' in its inclusion or exclusion matters very little. the southies see it in a different light than the northerners. each is correct in their interpretation. in fact, I learnt as part of the original discussion in this DG that latha and lata were the same... dont jump on me here lata in north indian hindi and latha in south indian hindi. if I was not part of this DG I may never have learnt the difference.

as a joke jawagal should have spelled his name as Srinathh, sorry, Shreenathh, otherwise his name sounds like a specific nut.

eh? latha is correct transliteration of the actual pronunciation..there is no  hindi telugu or tamil there..lata is simply aping of english ways of spelling things and not correct transliteration

huh? Shouldn't you follow the English way when you spell something in English?

how do you northies pronounce "data"? 

Data - the English word? Or data - the Hindi word?   

whoever did this english spelling for hindi words has done a rather poor job - there is absolutely no defence! instead of removing the phonetically correct "h", they should have thrown in an extra "h" like they did for "chhole" etc. to distinguish the heavy "t" from the light "t".

for someone who is trying to learn hindi using english, it is a pronunciation nightmare! he will pronounce "lata" rhyming with "insalata".

it is all very well for hindi speakers to read hindi in english coz they "know" the right way but what about others who are not familiar with the language?

i can't believe some of you are defending it! (dare i say parochialism?  )

[teamindia]

First of all why should we write Hindi, Tamilz or any other devanagari in English script? Each of those languages has it's own script.

Ever seen Chinese or Japanese or Thai writings in English?
 

[pipsqueak]

First of all why should we write Hindi, Tamilz or any other devanagari in English script? Each of those languages has it's own script.

Ever seen Chinese or Japanese or Thai writings in English?

how else will some one who is LEARNING the language pick it up?

Putongua(mandarin) has a very clear romanization system called 'pinyin'.

we do need a standard notation for others to learn the language esp. the pronunciation.

[RicePlateReddy]

When those whose native language is not Hindi try to correct it and are rebuffed by the native speakers using an exclusionary "contextual" angle to it .... the situation becomes akin to Kannadigas burning BCCI effigies when Sourav is unfairly dropped and the Bengali cops trying to arrest them.

I can't readily recall any English word where the "t" lacks a trailing "h" and is still pronounced with the tongue touching the back of the teeth.

[teamindia]

First of all why should we write Hindi, Tamilz or any other devanagari in English script? Each of those languages has it's own script.

Ever seen Chinese or Japanese or Thai writings in English?

how else will some one who is LEARNING the language pick it up?

Putongua(mandarin) has a very clear romanization system called 'pinyin'.

we do need a standard notation for others to learn the language esp. the pronunciation.

but English is not complete enough to distinguish between various Hindi letters.. For example how would you write and distinguish त - थ - ट - ठ in English?

[broadbat]

First of all why should we write Hindi, Tamilz or any other devanagari in English script? Each of those languages has it's own script.

Ever seen Chinese or Japanese or Thai writings in English?

how else will some one who is LEARNING the language pick it up?

Putongua(mandarin) has a very clear romanization system called 'pinyin'.

we do need a standard notation for others to learn the language esp. the pronunciation.

Just a thought. Does anyone even try to learn a language ( I mean really learn with all the nuances of speech etc) just by reading from books these day's or do they opt for the various audio aids available?

[RicePlateReddy]

This should perhaps settle it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAST

This is the formal transliteration spec. The northies win  It is "t" for त

But in the same scheme, one needs to use "c" for च - Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Insisting on using one and not the other is the reason there is a debate.

[RicePlateReddy]

More from good ole' wikipedia -

Pronunciation of the final "a"

Devanāgarī consonants include an 'inherent a' sound that must be explicitly represented with an 'a' character in the transliteration. Many words and names transliterated from Devanāgarī end with "a", to indicate the pronunciation in the original Sanskrit. This final 'inherent a' is often no longer pronounced in some Sanskrit-derived Indian languages, including Hindi. This results in an alternative 'modern' transliteration that omits it.

    * Sanskrit: Mahābhārata, Rāmāyaņa, Śiva
    * Hindi: Mahābhārat, Rāmāyaņ, Śiv

Some words keep the final a, generally because they would be difficult to say without it: (aka green wicketitis)

e.g; Krishna, vajra, Maurya

Some Indian languages, like Kannada, continue to use the original pronunciation today. Some, like Marathi, have an intermediate pronunciation.

[flute]

This should perhaps settle it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAST

This is the formal transliteration spec. The northies win  It is "t" for त

But in the same scheme, one needs to use "c" for च - Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Insisting on using one and not the other is the reason there is a debate.

what spec? when we are rejecting northie spelling, how can we accept northie spec? just like it is done in case of indian scripts, when you use tranliteration, go by the sound not some wierd spec 

[RicePlateReddy]

Tough. You should have gone to Geneva and fought it.

[flute]

Tough. You should have gone to Geneva and fought it.

well need not fight it..we just don't accept it
this is from 1890s..all those indologists wanted a way to communicate sanskrit, hence they came up with their own standard, why are indians showing this as proof? indians should follow the good indian method..always spell according to the sound.

[WicketView]

The sounds in English are a subset of the sounds used in Indian languages. Hence the number of letters in English is less than the number of letters in the alphabet we use.
So, if you want to make an invertible mapping from Hindi letters to English, you need to create some new symbols by combining two or more English letters. This can however lead to confusion because there might be a prescribed pronunciation for  that combination of letters in English already. Hence JFK argues that there is a 'h' sound in 'talwar'/'thalwar' which is simply wrong. The other alternative is to use a non-invertible map (as the others are doing). Then a sentence in English makes it impossible for one to transcribe it in Hindi, without extra information.

I think the first one is better, if everyone can agree upon standard rules. This requires some organization. If you can't get that, then the second one is more practical.

[flute]

HERE is one standard with involvement from indians. what is the spelling of Latha again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITRANS

http://www.aczoom.com/itrans/#itransencoding


A lot of indian words are starting to actually sound different because of this messed up transliteration. words like tamil,anari etc. Northies to switch to this standard and avoid confusion.

[flute]

The sounds in English are a subset of the sounds used in Indian languages. Hence the number of letters in English is less than the number of letters in the alphabet we use.
So, if you want to make an invertible mapping from Hindi letters to English, you need to create some new symbols by combining two or more English letters. This can however lead to confusion because there might be a prescribed pronunciation for  that combination of letters in English already. Hence JFK argues that there is a 'h' sound in 'talwar'/'thalwar' which is simply wrong. The other alternative is to use a non-invertible map (as the others are doing). Then a sentence in English makes it impossible for one to transcribe it in Hindi, without extra information.

I think the first one is better, if everyone can agree upon standard rules. This requires some organization. If you can't get that, then the second one is more practical.

very true..having a standard will help but then the problem is, having standard and people not knowing about it will lead to huge problems and it will kill quite a few words as it travels thru length & breadth of India.

[pipsqueak]

This should perhaps settle it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAST

This is the formal transliteration spec. The northies win  It is "t" for त

But in the same scheme, one needs to use "c" for च - Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Insisting on using one and not the other is the reason there is a debate.

"t" with a dot beneath it! else how would to distinguish it from "tamatar"?

what win! they dunno their own transliteration scheme! 

[justforkix]

This should perhaps settle it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAST

This is the formal transliteration spec. The northies win  It is "t" for त

But in the same scheme, one needs to use "c" for च - Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Insisting on using one and not the other is the reason there is a debate.

what spec? when we are rejecting northie spelling, how can we accept northie spec? just like it is done in case of indian scripts, when you use tranliteration, go by the sound not some wierd spec 

CP anyways does not accept wikipedia as evidence/proof

[justforkix]

but English is not complete enough to distinguish between various Hindi letters.. For example how would you write and distinguish त - थ - ट - ठ in English?

tha - thha and ta - tta

[teamindia]

but English is not complete enough to distinguish between various Hindi letters.. For example how would you write and distinguish त - थ - ट - ठ in English?

tha - thha and ta - tta

ta - tta      

[LosingNow]

but English is not complete enough to distinguish between various Hindi letters.. For example how would you write and distinguish त - थ - ट - ठ in English?

tha - thha and ta - tta

WHAT ?

Forget it..

these chennai-ites trying to speak Hindi the Tamil way     

[LosingNow]

but English is not complete enough to distinguish between various Hindi letters.. For example how would you write and distinguish त - थ - ट - ठ in English?

tha - thha and ta - tta

ta - tta      

[flute]

but English is not complete enough to distinguish between various Hindi letters.. For example how would you write and distinguish त - थ - ट - ठ in English?

tha - thha and ta - tta

WHAT ?

Forget it..

these chennai-ites trying to speak Hindi the Tamil way 

what's wrong with that? I think if we want hindi to spread everywhere, hindiwalas should be less uptight about it..let the language grow, adopt and also assimilate a lot of words from various languages and when in doubt, accept sanskrit as the standard and oh also accept whatever transliteration southies dish out without noise  . It is not for nothing that your mother tongue becomes national language

[justforkix]

but English is not complete enough to distinguish between various Hindi letters.. For example how would you write and distinguish त - थ - ट - ठ in English?

tha - thha and ta - tta

ta - tta      

thatz the best one can do.... Anyways, I don't disagree with you in that english is not complete enough to represent all hindi letters, heck, it is much easier in hindi. In tamil, i have no clue how to represent the 2 "ra", 2 "la" etc.... !!!

[Cover Point]

but English is not complete enough to distinguish between various Hindi letters.. For example how would you write and distinguish त - थ - ट - ठ in English?

tha - thha and ta - tta

balls to you too

yahooooooo I can now never be banned .... now that assistant mod has stooped to this level

and by the way it would ta --- t(d)ah ... the 't' and 'd' sound gets mixed and and is spoken with the tip of the tongue. There is no equivalant in Angrezi!

[justforkix]

WHAT ?

Forget it..

these chennai-ites trying to speak Hindi the Tamil way 

HUH ?!? what rubbish !!!!

[justforkix]

and by the way it would ta --- t(d)ah ... the 't' and 'd' sound gets mixed and and is spoken with the tip of the tongue. There is no equivalant in Angrezi!

yeah, right, why don't you add a few more letters too

everyone who knows hindi knows how it is pronounced. it is a question of how to represent it in hindi. Yours is as poor a representation as any....

[RicePlateReddy]

This should perhaps settle it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAST

This is the formal transliteration spec. The northies win  It is "t" for त

But in the same scheme, one needs to use "c" for च - Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Insisting on using one and not the other is the reason there is a debate.

"t" with a dot beneath it! else how would to distinguish it from "tamatar"?

what win! they dunno their own transliteration scheme! 

  "ṭ" with dot beneath is for "ṭamaṭar". The त - t transliteration remains.

what win! they dunno their own transliteration scheme! 

They won  त battle, we won द war!

[pipsqueak]

This should perhaps settle it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAST

This is the formal transliteration spec. The northies win  It is "t" for त

But in the same scheme, one needs to use "c" for च - Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Insisting on using one and not the other is the reason there is a debate.

"t" with a dot beneath it! else how would to distinguish it from "tamatar"?

what win! they dunno their own transliteration scheme! 

  "ṭ" with dot beneath is for "ṭamaṭar". The त - t transliteration remains.

what win! they dunno their own transliteration scheme! 

They won  त battle, we won द war!

you are right - i mixed them up. anyway, they aren't exonerated until they start putting the dot beneath "t" when writing tamatar and not say "use the context".

ps: on another note, why would they come up with a dot in the first place when "h" is available so freely and is the phonetically correct thing to do!

the malayalam romanization(mozhi) for the same letters is as below.


k  kh  g gh ng
ch chh j jh nj
T  Th  D Dh N
th thh d dh n
p  ph  b bh m

y  r   l v
z  sh  s h
L  zh  R t

[WicketView]

The sounds in English are a subset of the sounds used in Indian languages. Hence the number of letters in English is less than the number of letters in the alphabet we use.
So, if you want to make an invertible mapping from Hindi letters to English, you need to create some new symbols by combining two or more English letters. This can however lead to confusion because there might be a prescribed pronunciation for  that combination of letters in English already. Hence JFK argues that there is a 'h' sound in 'talwar'/'thalwar' which is simply wrong. The other alternative is to use a non-invertible map (as the others are doing). Then a sentence in English makes it impossible for one to transcribe it in Hindi, without extra information.

I think the first one is better, if everyone can agree upon standard rules. This requires some organization. If you can't get that, then the second one is more practical.

very true..having a standard will help but then the problem is, having standard and people not knowing about it will lead to huge problems and it will kill quite a few words as it travels thru length & breadth of India.

Hence, the last line of the post.

[Cover Point]

and by the way it would ta --- t(d)ah ... the 't' and 'd' sound gets mixed and and is spoken with the tip of the tongue. There is no equivalant in Angrezi!

yeah, right, why don't you add a few more letters too

everyone who knows hindi knows how it is pronounced. it is a question of how to represent it in hindi. Yours is as poor a representation as any....

why is mine as poor a representation?

[pipsqueak]

i PROTEST the title of thread - the naarthie moderators at work here? where is the southie one? jfk, how did you allow this?

thread shd be aptly titled "the naaarthie koopamandookam syndrome". 

[teamindia]

Southies can take lessons at Google Transliteration. Link below...   

http://www.google.com/transliterate/indic

[WicketView]

i PROTEST the title of thread - the naarthie moderators at work here? where is the southie one? jfk, how did you allow this?

thread shd be aptly titled "the naaarthie koopamandookam syndrome". 

it is the *-SG-is-retiring-what-can-we-fight-about syndrome.

[justforkix]

Southies can take lessons at Google Transliteration. Link below...   

http://www.google.com/transliterate/indic

clearly written by a naartie

[justforkix]

i PROTEST the title of thread - the naarthie moderators at work here? where is the southie one? jfk, how did you allow this?

ameerikan mods conspirancy while i was asleep 

[achutank]

BTW, imagine Bhabhi (sister-in-law) being spelt as Bhhabhhi .. silly!!

or not if you are kekkkttaa kappooorrr and thats your latest offering to the 35-45 midrif of this country

[LosingNow]

voting this thread for "DG classics"

[justforkix]

voting this thread for "DG classics"