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[Cernunnos]

Pathan's (neglecting minnows)
bowling average is 45.16

Agarkar's
bowling average is 47.32

We all know that Agarkar has sucked us in tests.
But I'll now make a case that Pathan is even more harmful.
The reason being that he masquerades as an allrounder,
lulling us into taking a fifth bowler, who comes in place of a
Laxman or Ganguly. We gain nothing in the bowling whereas we
lose substantially in the batting. A sure recipe for losing matches,
as we know that batting has always been our strength.

Moreover Agarkar was not played in every test and was dropped
liberally, whereas Pathan has become a Holy Cow, played on all
types of pitches.

In reality, Pathan is just another useless bowler, averaging 10
runs more with the bat than Agarkar (which really doesn't mean much).
We should see him in that perspective and treat him accordingly.

[cricinfo]

woww never knew it is so bad for IP! 

[tombaan]

this is something i agree with you 100%....pathan did nothing of note in a long time as a bowler which is his primary job...he as a bowler takes away spot from someone like rp singh who is more a bowler and has pace than pathan will ever have

[tombaan]

pathan is same category bowler like binny madanlal and sandhu

[ramshorns]

pathan is same category bowler like binny madanlal and sandhu

I think with Munaf/SS/RP and Pathan's 120's it is time we do not consider him for tests, except for Eng conditions.

[justforkix]

It is just silly to compare a medium pace bowler (read Agarkar) to a chinaman (read Pathan) 

[squarecut]

pathan is same category bowler like binny madanlal and sandhu

Yes he seems to be a better bat though. He has increase his pace from 120's to 130+ otherwise he can't keep his place.

[cricinfo]

tombaan now u r breaking my heart...honestly i thought we all think Pathan has a great potential...but suddenly this stat came across...looks shocking....then what happened to him after all that great start...now i really fear the same for others....

i mean ZK, Balaji , Nehra...all are fading out ...Munaf next??? something is lacking somewhere ....

[devatha]

I don't know anybody so far posted in this thread exactly knows what improvement IP has shown in Eng Test series. I don't know whether you people know how many wickets, the fastest bowler on earth Shoaib Akhtar took in Pak Test series.

IP is improving his bowling in sub-continental conditions. Just take a note.

[back2grave]

It is just silly to compare a medium pace bowler (read Agarkar) to a chinaman (read Pathan) 

 

I agree,IP can come good only in Eng/NZ conditions which is a heaven for seamers.He's a decent bait in one day though....

[squarecut]

I don't know anybody so far posted in this thread exactly knows what improvement IP has shown in Eng Test series. I don't know whether you people know how many wickets, the fastest bowler on earth Shoaib Akhtar took in Pak Test series.

IP is improving his bowling in sub-continental conditions. Just take a note.

But the 120k speed is pathetic. With that he can't do much.

[toney]

We all know that Agarkar has sucked us in tests.

He hasnt sucked me.

On a more serious note, devatha, IP isnt an express bowler but his loss of pace is alarming. For a swing bowler to have prolonged success, he should bowl at least in the low 130s. IP hardly reaches 128-129. He might fade away exactly like Venkatesh Prasad.

[ramshorns]

I don't know anybody so far posted in this thread exactly knows what improvement IP has shown in Eng Test series. I don't know whether you people know how many wickets, the fastest bowler on earth Shoaib Akhtar took in Pak Test series.

IP is improving his bowling in sub-continental conditions. Just take a note.

To me in this series he looked by far the worst at taking wickets among all the pacers that played.

[toney]

It is just silly to compare a medium pace bowler (read Agarkar) to a chinaman (read Pathan) 

LOL

[kban1]

toney:

He hasnt sucked me.

LMAO !!!!!!

 

[devatha]

So you guys pretty much decided on pace being the only thing that is important to take wickets on sub-continent? Great conclusion. IP is definitely improving his bowling in sub-continent. His bowling in 3rd Test 1st innings was poor. But take a look at first 2 tests, to see the improvement.

[toney]

So you guys pretty much decided on pace being the only thing that is important to take wickets on sub-continent? Great conclusion. IP is definitely improving his bowling in sub-continent. His bowling in 3rd Test 1st innings was poor. But take a look at first 2 tests, to see the improvement.

devatha, who ever is talking of pace being the only factor? Pace is definitely a factor. A batsman at that level can adjust to a Pathan delivery which swings compared to one from a slightly quicker bowler?
And this doesnt mean that he has to be express. He started out by bowling in the 140s, now he has gone down by at least 10-12ks.

I have seen SG bowling in the high 120s with decent accuracy. He is quite a handful when he gets some swing/seam too. Pathan, on current form is a much more disciplined version.

Now, dont misquote me saying that SG is a better bowler than IP.

[kban1]

toney:

devatha, who ever is talking of pace being the only factor? Pace is definitely a factor. A batsman at that level can adjust to a Pathan delivery which swings compared to one from a slightly quicker bowler?

Excellent point

IP has dropped about 10 kph in pace on average. Given that he takes  quite a few wickets lbw or bowled, a drop of even 5 kph could be the difference between lbw / bowled or the batsman getting an inside edge onto pads --just the tad bit more reaction time is enough for a good delivery to go unrewarded.

[devatha]

So you guys pretty much decided on pace being the only thing that is important to take wickets on sub-continent? Great conclusion. IP is definitely improving his bowling in sub-continent. His bowling in 3rd Test 1st innings was poor. But take a look at first 2 tests, to see the improvement.

devatha, who ever is talking of pace being the only factor? Pace is definitely a factor. A batsman at that level can adjust to a Pathan delivery which swings compared to one from a slightly quicker bowler?

But you guys made it look like, if there is no pace, he can't take wickets. He has taken wickets in first 2 Tests, with the same pace. So pace is a factor, but not that big a factor, so as not to get him wickets. That is the whole point, he is improving. Pace is no big deal.

[devatha]

FYI

The fastest bowlers in this series, Flintoff & Harmison's averages in first 2 Tests:

Harmison: 38.60
Flintoff: 36.28

Where as IP's bowling average is: 32.42

I agree that IP bowled rubbish in 3rd Test, 1st Innings.

Theory is O.K. It is a bit easy to adjust to the swing when coming at lesser pace. But the fact that IP is improving is there to see.

[squarecut]

So you guys pretty much decided on pace being the only thing that is important to take wickets on sub-continent? Great conclusion. IP is definitely improving his bowling in sub-continent. His bowling in 3rd Test 1st innings was poor. But take a look at first 2 tests, to see the improvement.

devatha, who ever is talking of pace being the only factor? Pace is definitely a factor. A batsman at that level can adjust to a Pathan delivery which swings compared to one from a slightly quicker bowler?

But you guys made it look like, if there is no pace, he can't take wickets. He has taken wickets in first 2 Tests, with the same pace. So pace is a factor, but not that big a factor, so as not to get him wickets. That is the whole point, he is improving. Pace is no big deal.

There is a difference bowling with 120 comapred to 130. 130 is not even considered fast.

[devatha]

Squarecut, so what is the point? He is still getting wickets, as I have shown. It is not about 110, 120, 130, 140 or 150. The point is whether he is getting wickets or not. He is improving as can be seen from first 2 tests.

At the end of the day, he will be judged by the number of wickets he gets & his bowling average, not by his bowling speed.

[toney]

devatha,
Your previous post (that IP's contribution in terms of wickets is the only relevant detail. Pace etc are not important) is correct.
Now go back to cerrunon's post and his average against non minnows. The IP wkt collection and his avg are below average. Then, the aim will be to see if there is some factor that has caused IP to struggle against stronger opposition.

When Pak toured INdia last year, he had lost his swing completely. That was a huge reason for his dismal show then. But this season, he has come back well in this dept. So what could be the reason? He seems to get late swing and has reasonably good control. We then realized that batsmen can adjust better to his swinging deliveries, even the late swinging ones. So, why is it that the same delivery fetched him more success at the beginning of his career (like say, Pak series which we won under SG) compared to now. The higher pace is the only reason.

Even if, as you say, IP is picking up truck loads of wickets (that isnt true), imagine the difference that a couple of yards will make.

[Cover Point]

This is the part I never understood. We are using the same data to say opposite things.

I posted yesterday that IP has become less effective or put it this way is now the third best seamer in the team in unhelpful conditions. I think everyone is agreeing with that. I think that is all the more reason to play him as the 5th bowler since he is the only genuine allrounder we have.

I had used some numbers to show that the difference in his batting average to Lakhan and SG was what 5-7. Surely he can make up for that by his bowling where if nothing else he can be used to rest the other seamers.

The fact that he is becoming less effective with the ball than we thought (and ore effective with the bat) tells us more of the need for 5 bowlers since he cant be one of the 4 bowlers we carry.

So does Pathan at 6 or 7 not provide enough in terms of bowling option to make up for the 5-7 run difference in batting that a SG or Lakhan would give you?  

[ramshorns]

We can talk of IP later.  I still cannot get over the capitulation last night 100 allout.   I mean RD/GC.  I have few choice words for them.   The selectors declaring the team yesterday as opposed to today.  What were they thinking??Son's of [beep].  What an insult to the fans?? Running their little clown act when the test match and the series was hanging in the balance.   How can RD and GC even think of the ODI's and go to the meeting instead of spending the evening with the players and the strategy for the next day.   I simply don't get it.  Astounded.  Am I overreacting.

[fineleg]

We can talk of IP later.  I still cannot get over the capitulation last night 100 allout.   I mean RD/GC.  I have few choice words for them.   The selectors declaring the team yesterday as opposed to today.  What were they thinking??Son's of [beep].  What an insult to the fans?? Running their little clown act when the test match and the series was hanging in the balance.   How can RD and GC even think of the ODI's and go to the meeting instead of spending the evening with the players and the strategy for the next day.   I simply don't get it.  Astounded.  Am I overreacting.

Why does ur quote have « Last Edit: Today at 12:20:04 PM by saurabh »

Anyway, You are NOT over-reacting...the players and non-players (like BCCI) have contributed in someway to this capitulation and it is a disgrace and insult ( I said as much and dhruvdeepak would not agree this is a disgrace...). But anyways, you are not overreacting.

[toney]

This is the part I never understood. We are using the same data to say opposite things.

I posted yesterday that IP has become less effective or put it this way is now the third best seamer in the team in unhelpful conditions. I think everyone is agreeing with that. I think that is all the more reason to play him as the 5th bowler since he is the only genuine allrounder we have.

I had used some numbers to show that the difference in his batting average to Lakhan and SG was what 5-7. Surely he can make up for that by his bowling where if nothing else he can be used to rest the other seamers.

The fact that he is becoming less effective with the ball than we thought (and ore effective with the bat) tells us more of the need for 5 bowlers since he cant be one of the 4 bowlers we carry.

So does Pathan at 6 or 7 not provide enough in terms of bowling option to make up for the 5-7 run difference in batting that a SG or Lakhan would give you? 

Very good points. But the fact remains that IP's bowling quality has gone down, right? Look at the successful allrounders (Kapil, Imran, Kallia and Freddie in recent times). Except for Kallis who came in primarily as a batsman, the rest have all maintained their bowling quality while improving their batting. That means, all of them made sure one part of their skills (probably the main part) never suffered and they improved the other set of skills.
IP: batting has improved. Bowling has gone down.
I think the thread owner's aim was to discuss this.

[ramshorns]

What were they thinking??Son's of [beep]. 

Why does ur quote have « Last Edit: Today at 12:20:04 PM by saurabh »

Anyway, You are NOT over-reacting...the players and non-players (like BCCI) have contributed in someway to this capitulation and it is a disgrace and insult ( I said as much and dhruvdeepak would not agree this is a disgrace...). But anyways, you are not overreacting.

That is what I want to know.  Thought it was apt as well as I like to use it.  Dex???

[devatha]

Toney

Yes. Swing at a bit more pace does good. But for some reason, there is reduction in his pace. Do you know at what pace he bowled against Pak in Ind tour last year you are talking about?

I am not talking about IP's whole career. So, please don't get his career averages against non-minnows into picture. Coming to Cernunnos's post, it doesn't take 2 factors into consideration. The fact that IP was suffering from injury in Aus tour to India. It doesn't take into account, how badly the averages of bowlers got affected by Lahore & Faisalabad tests.

My sole point is that, he is improving his bowling as can be seen from SL & ENG series. Which single bowler has bowled well in Pak Test series? Asif & Pathan bowled well in 3rd Test. But what about first 2 Tests? Every bowler's averages got damaged by those 2 tests.

[toney]

OK, devatha, so you dont want to address the loss of pace. Fine.

As for the question (abt IP's pace against Pak in Pak - under SG): I dont rememebr the exact pace but he was definitely quicker than now. I can guarantee he reached 135+. And he made YK and Yuhana struggle.
In Aus, he clocked 140.

[ramshorns]

Toney

Yes. Swing at a bit more pace does good. But for some reason, there is reduction in his pace. Do you know at what pace he bowled against Pak in Ind tour last year you are talking about?

I am not talking about IP's whole career. So, please don't get his career averages against non-minnows into picture. Coming to Cernunnos's post, it doesn't take 2 factors into consideration. The fact that IP was suffering from injury in Aus tour to India. It doesn't take into account, how badly the averages of bowlers got affected by Lahore & Faisalabad tests.

My sole point is that, he is improving his bowling as can be seen from SL & ENG series. Which single bowler has bowled well in Pak Test series? Asif & Pathan bowled well in 3rd Test. But what about first 2 Tests? Every bowler's averages got damaged by those 2 tests.

A bowler opening for India should not bowling 120's.   Either RD/GC are smoking pot or do not know what the hell they are doing. Period......  I will get into the technical analysis sometime later when the dust on 'THE CAPITUALATION' settles.

[bala]

Pathan needs the potion...

JFK..go fetch Getafix

[justforkix]

Anyway, You are NOT over-reacting...the players and non-players (like BCCI) have contributed in someway to this capitulation and it is a disgrace and insult ( I said as much and dhruvdeepak would not agree this is a disgrace...). But anyways, you are not overreacting.

fineleg : I agree. Itz a disgrace and insult. It was spineless performance by the whole XI on D-5. Went down without a fight like a wimp. The team is badly in need of a fighter who can stand up and be counted.

[ramshorns]

fineleg : The team is badly in need of a fighter who can stand up and be counted.

They had two in Laxman and Kaif if they wanted to use one.  Again don't give me the 100 to 313 crap and if they would have made a difference.

[toney]

The team is badly in need of a fighter who can stand up and be counted.

Dara Singh? Hulk Hogan?

[justforkix]

Pathan needs the potion...

JFK..go fetch Getafix

LOL Good one.

But Getafix has lost his memory because of the menhir hit from Obelix and has forgotten how to prepare the magic potion. In fact that is the reason for our poor performance in this series 

[ramshorns]

Dara Singh? Hulk Hogan?

I think we can use them today to go after the 5 guys who selected the team when they were better off confined to their hotel rooms and played cards.

[justforkix]

fineleg : The team is badly in need of a fighter who can stand up and be counted.

They had two in Laxman and Kaif if they wanted to use one.  Again don't give me the 100 to 313 crap and if they would have made a difference.

Definitely. these two would have been way more useful than that flashy Yuvi yesterday !!!!

[devatha]

fineleg : The team is badly in need of a fighter who can stand up and be counted.

They had two in Laxman and Kaif if they wanted to use one.  Again don't give me the 100 to 313 crap and if they would have made a difference.

Rams:
Kaif is secondary. Just one innings. Actually we needed Laxman. That is the point, right?

[ramshorns]

fineleg : The team is badly in need of a fighter who can stand up and be counted.

They had two in Laxman and Kaif if they wanted to use one.  Again don't give me the 100 to 313 crap and if they would have made a difference.

Definitely. these two would have been way more useful than that flashy Yuvi yesterday !!!!

Don't even get me started over Yuvi the test player.