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proloy

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2008, 03:03:04 AM »
You win professor. Please stop posting everybody else's articles.

It's all right. Everybody can draw their own conclusions. And don't worry too much about the cost of land. Just wait a twelvemonth. Everybody will be able to buy back all their lost land in Singur with just their pocket-money. And keep the compensation provided by CPM as change.

It's a victory for the people of Bengal. Didi has told that to us. It's the end of the shady-raj. Let's just celebrate.

Ratan Tata has been taught a lesson. Hopefully others will learn too. And think a hundred times before they try to enter the den of the Bengali Intellectual. The Bengali Intellectual will never lose, no matter what laughing stock he makes of himself in the eyes of the rest of the world.

After all, you know for sure that your own children will never have to earn their livelihood from farming. So you can continue to enjoy the luxury of shedding tears for the "sarbahara".
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2008, 03:12:05 AM »
You win professor. Please stop posting everybody else's articles.

Proloy,
You have attacked me, my motives and my intellect. Fine - that is your choice. You have not participated in any discussion other than sarcasm and personal attacks. That is your choice too. You have tried to paint the picture that all but the "intellectual" Bengalis possess negative stereotypes on Bihar and other states and when I distanced myself you dared call it pretense. I did not comment on that either.

Asking me to stop posting is not acceptable, however. When you are ready to participate in adult discussions, read the posted articles. Until then nobody forced you to read anything, leave alone posts of mine. 

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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2008, 03:19:13 AM »
WV
The article by MJ VIjayan I posted poses the questions reasonably well. The "shady" term is one I used. You can also read the CPIM, CPIML points of view and see who you believe.
Most of the issues raised by Vijayan seem to have to do with the CPM, rather than the deal (or TATA). Whether the CPM is consistent in their policy, whether they were right to offer Singur in the first place, whether they are adequately compensating the landowners (which by reading you last post, and taking it at face value they are not) etc. But, which of the points raised by Vijayan can be answered by looking at the deal?

Sorry, apart from one point I thought none of the others were about CPM per se.
The compensation issue is not about CPM, except of course that the govt happens to be CPM.

In any case, let me try again. Well, what is the deal? How much tax breaks have they got? How much have they paid for the land? Why were the 1000 acres needed?

Why is it that the best agricultural land in Bengal was essentially needed for the plant? The original location, Kharagpur, is only a little farther away (roughly 120 km instead of 40 km ) and has several advantages. It is close to an IIT, the land is poorly irrigated (relative to Singur) and the state would benefit from a development of a second city away from Kolkata rather than one very close to it. What exactly were the problems?

 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 03:21:49 AM by prfsr »
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2008, 03:31:15 AM »
A different project, different circumstances, very different results:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/an-hour-from-singur-a-tata-story-just-the-.../369568/

An hour from Singur, a Tata story — just the opposite
 
Ravik Bhattacharya

 Posted: Oct 05, 2008 at 0137 hrs IST

  Kolkata, October 4 No hitch in the 1,251-acre Tata Telcon-Hitachi JV to make earth-movers; over 700 acres of farmland acquired. Officials explain: Singur is Trinamool area, Nano was too high-profile, too close to Kolkata

Announcing the Nano pull-out from West Bengal, Ratan Tata referred to the Tata Cancer Centre coming up in the Rajarhat township, on the outskirts of Kolkata, as the bridge that remains between the group and the Government of Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee. That hospital is spread over just 13.40 acres of Government land but there is another Tata project on a scale as big as the Nano — and which is moving quietly ahead as per script.

Barely an hour’s drive from Singur, the Tata Telcon project in Kharagpur, a joint venture with Hitachi for making heavy earth-moving vehicles, also involved acquisition of agricultural land by the government right next to National Highway 6 (Kolkata-Mumbai highway).

Land acquisition began in June-July 2006 almost simultaneously with the Nano project in Singur. The Tata Telcon project envisages an industrial park of 1251.49 acres — Nano’s was 997 acres — of which the state government’s West Bengal Industrial Development Corporation has already acquired 967.96 acres. An estimated 80 per cent of this is agricultural. To date, Rs 63 crore has been paid as compensation to farmers and landholders. There are no “unwilling farmers” so far.

The main Tata factory here will cover 562 acres — the equivalent in Singur was about 650 acres — and the total investment in the project, including that by vendors, is expected to be around Rs 2000 crore. Like Singur, besides the main plant, several vendors form part of the project. The state government and WBIDC have successfully acquired and allotted land to key vendors.

Consider the following:

* Telcon has its own vendor unit spread over 250 acres and will invest over Rs 500 crore.

* Tractors India has got 50 acres and will invest Rs 220 crore

* Arcon, a Canada-based vendor, has got 12 acres and is estimated to invest Rs 120 crore.

* York Consultant, a Tata holding company based in Singapore, has got 40 acres and is estimated to invest Rs 80 crore.

* US-based vendor P and H, specialising in coal mining equipment, has got 20 acres and is estimated to invest around Rs 60 crore.

“The Tata Telcon project is running smoothly. We have acquired land for the company and construction work has started recently,” said Subrata Gupta, MD, WBIDC. So why was land acquisition here smoother? The answers, officials admit, are hard to find. “Our compensation package was the normal one — Rs 8 lakh-Rs 11 lakh per acre, depending on the crop pattern on the land, which is primarily agricultural. (For Nano, the rates were Rs 9 -12 lakh). Just like in Singur, we held a regular dialogue at the grassroots level. We paid 25 per cent of the land price to recorded bargadars, which is also what was done in Singur,” said N S Nigam, District Magistrate, West Midnapore, in which the project falls. “Everyone cooperated, including the Opposition Trinamool Congress,” said Nigam. Asked why, Nigam said: “There was more attention on Singur. Maybe the stakes were higher given the publicity over Nano, the world’s cheapest car, and the firm deadline. Kharagpur was in the backyard and things proceeded here quietly from the spotlight.” In fact, an official said that Singur’s proximity to Kolkata — a mere 40-minute drive away — made it easier as a target since protesters had easy access to it. The area, dominated by the CPM, has a strong Trinamool and Congress base. A portion of the industrial park falls under Congress MLA Gyan Singh Sohon Pal’s Assembly constituency and the Lok Sabha seat falls under Probodh Panda of CPI. Said Partho Chatterjee, TMC leader and leader of the Opposition: “The right political atmosphere has been created there so therefore we did not protest. But Singur is different.”

Asked to explain what he meant by the right “atmosphere,” Chatterjee declined to comment. There may not be clear-cut answers as to why this is different from Nano but one thing is clear: no one in the Government is complaining....

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proloy

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2008, 03:34:26 AM »

Asking me to stop posting is not acceptable, however. When you are ready to participate in adult discussions, read the posted articles. Until then nobody forced you to read anything, leave alone posts of mine.

Please read first what is written. I asked you to stop posting other people's voluminous articles. Not your own.

I see that as nothing more than a clever strategy from you to deflect attention. Just post mile-long articles, and post it twenty times a day, and because nobody will have time to read through them, you can declare that all your points got buttressed.

I do not attack you personally. I attack the self-congratulatory assurance of the Bengali, of which you are only a representative. People as far from as Srilanka are bending over backwards to invite the Tatas, and you feel smug discussing the loose change that somebody has missed out on. And you demand that all points of technicalities be resolved before you can give your fit-certificate. Without that, you have the right to proclaim "the deal was shady, it had to be stopped".

It's shameful, and not just that, painful. It's painful to see how people can crib about how makeup isn't done properly, when the house is on fire.

It's also a question-mark on the effectiveness of democracy as an institution. Just one madwoman, and some cohorts of her, can hold the future of everyone to ransom, and people can do nothing but watch helplessly.

Just the ingrained jealousy of some people which cannot stand anybody from the CPM getting any credit. Just a single-minded agenda of making another guy look bad. Keep dragging one technicality or the other, and quote from hordes of intellectuals none of whom will ever have anything to lose. It's the rank and file of the Bengali populace, who wanted to work for making their own futures better, which gets sacrificed at the altar of some self-serving rabble-rousers.

If you ask me, it's nothing short of treason.
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2008, 03:43:46 AM »
Quote
I do not attack you personally.

1. "The professor believes .... Venerable integrity!"

2. "For anybody who has any shred of common sense, it's the end that matters." (after I said I believe ends do not justify the means)

3. "The pretensions will never go away. They'll never."

4. "The CPM are not the communists of today. Mamata and people like you are."

5. "and you feel smug discussing the loose change that somebody has missed out on."

6. "And Prakash Karat says the nuclear deal was shady because "the terms were not disclosed". And professor claims he's not a communist man. And Brutus says he's an honorable man."

 :icon_thumleft:
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 04:08:40 AM by prfsr »
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proloy

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2008, 04:24:45 AM »
Quote
I do not attack you personally.

1. "The professor believes .... Venerable integrity!"

2. "For anybody who has any shred of common sense, it's the end that matters." (after I said I believe ends do not justify the means)

3. "The pretensions will never go away. They'll never."

4. "The CPM are not the communists of today. Mamata and people like you are."

5. "and you feel smug discussing the loose change that somebody has missed out on."

6. "And Prakash Karat says the nuclear deal was shady because "the terms were not disclosed". And professor claims he's not a communist man. And Brutus says he's an honorable man."

 :icon_thumleft:

 I attack the self-congratulatory assurance of the Bengali, of which you are only a representative.
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WicketView

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2008, 04:31:36 AM »

Asking me to stop posting is not acceptable, however. When you are ready to participate in adult discussions, read the posted articles. Until then nobody forced you to read anything, leave alone posts of mine.

Please read first what is written. I asked you to stop posting other people's voluminous articles. Not your own.

I see that as nothing more than a clever strategy from you to deflect attention. Just post mile-long articles, and post it twenty times a day, and because nobody will have time to read through them, you can declare that all your points got buttressed.

I do not attack you personally. I attack the self-congratulatory assurance of the Bengali, of which you are only a representative. People as far from as Srilanka are bending over backwards to invite the Tatas, and you feel smug discussing the loose change that somebody has missed out on. And you demand that all points of technicalities be resolved before you can give your fit-certificate. Without that, you have the right to proclaim "the deal was shady, it had to be stopped".

It's shameful, and not just that, painful. It's painful to see how people can crib about how makeup isn't done properly, when the house is on fire.

It's also a question-mark on the effectiveness of democracy as an institution. Just one madwoman, and some cohorts of her, can hold the future of everyone to ransom, and people can do nothing but watch helplessly.

Just the ingrained jealousy of some people which cannot stand anybody from the CPM getting any credit. Just a single-minded agenda of making another guy look bad. Keep dragging one technicality or the other, and quote from hordes of intellectuals none of whom will ever have anything to lose. It's the rank and file of the Bengali populace, who wanted to work for making their own futures better, which gets sacrificed at the altar of some self-serving rabble-rousers.

If you ask me, it's nothing short of treason.
In case you do not get it, that is a personal attack.  Just because you couple the personal attack with an attack on Bengalis in general does not make it any better, it only makes it worse. 
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WicketView

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2008, 04:40:34 AM »
WV
The article by MJ VIjayan I posted poses the questions reasonably well. The "shady" term is one I used. You can also read the CPIM, CPIML points of view and see who you believe.
Most of the issues raised by Vijayan seem to have to do with the CPM, rather than the deal (or TATA). Whether the CPM is consistent in their policy, whether they were right to offer Singur in the first place, whether they are adequately compensating the landowners (which by reading you last post, and taking it at face value they are not) etc. But, which of the points raised by Vijayan can be answered by looking at the deal?

Sorry, apart from one point I thought none of the others were about CPM per se.
The compensation issue is not about CPM, except of course that the govt happens to be CPM.

In any case, let me try again. Well, what is the deal? How much tax breaks have they got? How much have they paid for the land?
OK, these things would be in the deal. It seems unlikely that revealing any of this would harm the TATA s. And the State Govt., assuming it gave them tax breaks etc., could possibly use  this as an advertisement for what they are doing.
Quote
Why were the 1000 acres needed?
sounds unlikely to be in the deal.
[/quote]
Why is it that the best agricultural land in Bengal was essentially needed for the plant? The original location, Kharagpur, is only a little farther away (roughly 120 km instead of 40 km ) and has several advantages. It is close to an IIT, the land is poorly irrigated (relative to Singur) and the state would benefit from a development of a second city away from Kolkata rather than one very close to it. What exactly were the problems?
[/quote]
Will not be in the deal.

On the other hand, I can agree with you that there should be no reason why the govt offered Singur rather than other alternative locations.

So, I think most of the questions could be answered even without revealing the deal.
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proloy

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2008, 05:11:18 AM »
In case you do not get it, that is a personal attack.  Just because you couple the personal attack with an attack on Bengalis in general does not make it any better, it only makes it worse.

What you do not get is that it does not matter to me who enunciates an idea. It's the idea that I attack. If it's individual A, so be it. If it's individual B, so be it.

I don't care what is the face of the individual who throws the idea. And those who wish to pronounce something as sweeping as "it had to be stopped"  are themselves responsible for getting themselves associated with that idea. It was their own wish to be identified with it. And I see no bravery in hiding behind a shield of "personal attack". If you can't tolerate your opinions being attacked, the solution is simple --don't have the opinions.
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Dayal Baba

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2008, 07:23:50 AM »
And fyi, High Court itself put an injunction on the agreement disclosure.


So it is okay to take the land from the people, undercompensate them and not tell them the terms and conditions? Great!

I agree with the need for industry. I disagree with the need for subsidy. But I can live with that as well. I am amused at the phrase "Tata and Nano for Bengal". I was under the impression it would only be in Bengal.

FYI Tata still has the land. It is not clear if the people will get a paisa compensation (Nirupam Sen was non-commital when asked) but the land will not be returned. Ratan Tata has hinted that he might well return when things have cooled down.

Finally let me ask you one question. Why could not the plant be built on less fertile land? It is a very simple question. Please try and give me an honest answer. We can discuss the geography of Bengal and in particular the distribution of fertile land in the state if you like.


prfsr, you dodged the issue of the high court injunction on the disclosure. there is a right to information act clause which bars revelation of all the terms and conditions. in that case, why do you call the deal shady?


A right to information act clause bars revelation of information?

Could anyone please tell me more about this act?



http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/09/13/stories/2008091352041000.htm

Mr Justice Dipankar Dutta of Calcutta High Court on Friday directed the West Bengal Government not to publish in next two weeks the agreement it entered into with Tata Motors and West Bengal Industrial Development Corporation relating to the manufacture of small cars at Singur plant. The order was passed following writ petition filed by Tata Motors. Tata Motors alleged that the West Bengal Government had violated the relevant provision of the Right to Information Act 2005 in publishing the agreement dated March 9, 2007. The matter shall come up for hearing next week.

This is an interesting answer, though i was actually asking about the Right to Information Act prohibiting revelation of information.


this explains the RTI act better. as a third party (tata) is involved, there is no right to information without their consent.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080913/jsp/frontpage/story_9828532.jsp

and no, I don't think the secret details are out yet.

anyway, i don't feel anyone should call it a shady deal. the laws of the land prevent it from being disclosed.

Thanks.

I don't know the exact questions that are being asked about the deal, and why it is being termed shady. However, it is inaccurate to say that the laws of the land prevent it from being disclosed (even if I believe the articles you posted), because
the objection is coming from Tata, an involved party.


so? the law says that if the third party's trade secret gets divulged, then there is no automatic right to information.

Quote
The relevant point is what questions are being asked by the people who allege shadiness, and whether revealing the answers to those could reasonably hurt the company, in which case the TATA stance could be justified.


the relvant point is people alleging shadiness might have to get used to the fact that they have no right to get answers to all their questions.
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Dayal Baba

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2008, 07:26:13 AM »
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Our_lives_are_shattered/articleshow/3561614.cms

'Our lives are shattered'


As I look across the fields at the Nano factory that has been lying desolate for the past month, I feel cheated. Like everyone else in my neighbou
rhood, I had dreamt of a new beginning. The Nano project showed us hope. It may not have changed our lives, but our children would surely have benefited.

After two years of turmoil, strife and uncertainty, what we are left with is emptiness and a bleak future. I had a one-bigha plot that I was asked to give up. I did, with pain in my heart. The small plot was like my son. But I agreed in the hope that it would benefit Singur. My 23-year-old son Samar was called for a technical course and absorbed by a Nano ancillary unit. The future looked bright for him and all of us. "Baba, we can build cars and show the world," he would tell me. His enthusiasm made me forget the pain and guilt of losing my only asset.

All my life I have struggled to make ends meet with my meagre earnings. My wife Purnima and daughter Madhumita, who passed Madhyamik this year, chipped in with odd jobs. But it was clear that farming would not be able to sustain us for long.

It was at this juncture that the Tatas arrived. Initially, we were sceptical. Will the government indeed give us compensation and jobs? We didn't know. But I needed the money. I received Rs 3 lakh for my land. My son got the job and started earning Rs 2,200 a month — a princely amount for us. My daughter, too, was asked to appear for an interview after which she would have joined a training course. Tata Motors appointed me as a night guard at the factory site. Life was on the verge of a transformation for us.

With the compensation, I started rebuilding my mud hut and hoped to complete it by this Puja. But it was not to be. Mamata Banerjee's agitation changed everything. The factory suspended work and my son was thrown out of his job. But we kept our fingers crossed, praying for a solution. It did seem imminent after the lifting of the dharna.

We saw a glimmer of hope. But it didn't last more than a week. Finally, on Friday evening, came the dreaded news: the Tatas were pulling out. We'd always feared it, but still can't accept that it has happened. Our lives are shattered.

The compensation money is gone. I am left with practically nothing to fall back on. My son has not been paid since the factory shut down. I am having to borrow from my neighbours. Every day, my son visits the factory to check if the last month's salary has arrived. I can't look him in the eye any longer. The hope in his eyes has gone and he wears a defeated look. My daughter will have to quit school.

I have no idea what I am going to do now. Nobody will employ me at this age. Will somebody tell me what I am supposed to do now?
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2008, 12:38:08 PM »
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Singur_pullout_Dont_just_blame_Mamata/articleshow/3561863.cms

Singur pullout: Don't just blame Mamata
4 Oct, 2008, 0830 hrs IST, ET Bureau

The temptation to blame Mamata Banerjee and her Luddite politics for the Tata Motors’ decision to pull out from Singur would be natural. Particularly since Tata Sons chairman Ratan Tata has himself held the Trinamool Congress — which has been at the forefront of an unrelenting and violent agitation in Singur — for his decision, even as he has heaped praise on the West Bengal government for trying its best to ensure that the Nano project took off.

But all concerned — especially the CPI(M)-led Left Front government and other proponents of its industrialisation project — would do well to resist such urge to put all the blame on the Opposition. Such blame-game would, after all, do no more than obscure the real source of the problem.

The failure of the state government, first in Nandigram and now in Singur, to jump-start industrialisation offers crucial lessons on how not to go about the business of development. The current mess in Singur shows that industrial development cannot succeed as long as it is seen purely as an economic question.

Transition from agriculture to industry, its economic inevitability notwithstanding, cannot be inclusive and peaceful as long as its institutional-political basis is not in participatory democracy. The point is not that Mamata be excused for her destructive politics. Driven purely by her electoral monomania to unseat the LF government, she has further sullied the already tainted credibility of Bengal’s industrial climate.

Her politics has been both reactive and reactionary. The point is that the popular anxieties on which such retrograde politics has thrived are real. And the existence of such distress is equally due to the LF’s failure to posit an alternative politics of inclusive development.

Clearly, land consolidation cannot be trouble-free as long as the state continues to use its powers under eminent domain to acquire land. The alternative to this top-down approach would be to make landowners stakeholders in the industrialisation process. (I suggested this as well)

That can be achieved only if land consolidation for a project is carried out by a company in which both the government and landholders are equal stakeholders. Monetary compensation is crucial, but can only be part of this scheme of bottom-up industrialisation.
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kban1

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2008, 06:12:11 PM »
Quote
I received Rs 3 lakh for my land

Rs 3 lakhs for a bigha of land ??

So an acre of land for Rs 9 lakhs ?

isnt that low even by Tata's own standards, especially given the location of the land ?
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2008, 06:33:52 PM »
Quote
I received Rs 3 lakh for my land

Rs 3 lakhs for a bigha of land ??

So an acre of land for Rs 9 lakhs ?

isnt that low even by Tata's own standards, especially given the location of the land ?

kban,
I can say this much with first-hand knowledge and certainty -- there is NO way farm land in the Hooghly district can have the same price as the land near Kharagpur. There are *huge* problems with water in the latter area - and shamefully there is no decent irrigation system. In the Hooghly district they have had great irrigation for many decades now (Obviously distance to the Ganga is a big factor). If you noticed the article I posted on the Tencon project near Kharagpur, it said that they are paying the same price for both areas.
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WicketView

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2008, 07:37:05 PM »
And fyi, High Court itself put an injunction on the agreement disclosure.


So it is okay to take the land from the people, undercompensate them and not tell them the terms and conditions? Great!

I agree with the need for industry. I disagree with the need for subsidy. But I can live with that as well. I am amused at the phrase "Tata and Nano for Bengal". I was under the impression it would only be in Bengal.

FYI Tata still has the land. It is not clear if the people will get a paisa compensation (Nirupam Sen was non-commital when asked) but the land will not be returned. Ratan Tata has hinted that he might well return when things have cooled down.

Finally let me ask you one question. Why could not the plant be built on less fertile land? It is a very simple question. Please try and give me an honest answer. We can discuss the geography of Bengal and in particular the distribution of fertile land in the state if you like.


prfsr, you dodged the issue of the high court injunction on the disclosure. there is a right to information act clause which bars revelation of all the terms and conditions. in that case, why do you call the deal shady?


A right to information act clause bars revelation of information?

Could anyone please tell me more about this act?



http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/09/13/stories/2008091352041000.htm

Mr Justice Dipankar Dutta of Calcutta High Court on Friday directed the West Bengal Government not to publish in next two weeks the agreement it entered into with Tata Motors and West Bengal Industrial Development Corporation relating to the manufacture of small cars at Singur plant. The order was passed following writ petition filed by Tata Motors. Tata Motors alleged that the West Bengal Government had violated the relevant provision of the Right to Information Act 2005 in publishing the agreement dated March 9, 2007. The matter shall come up for hearing next week.

This is an interesting answer, though i was actually asking about the Right to Information Act prohibiting revelation of information.


this explains the RTI act better. as a third party (tata) is involved, there is no right to information without their consent.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080913/jsp/frontpage/story_9828532.jsp

and no, I don't think the secret details are out yet.

anyway, i don't feel anyone should call it a shady deal. the laws of the land prevent it from being disclosed.

Thanks.

I don't know the exact questions that are being asked about the deal, and why it is being termed shady. However, it is inaccurate to say that the laws of the land prevent it from being disclosed (even if I believe the articles you posted), because
the objection is coming from Tata, an involved party.


so? the law says that if the third party's trade secret gets divulged, then there is no automatic right to information.

If you can reasonably explain what trade secrets could be divulged, I would agree with you. Of course, this depends on the questions asked, which is why I asked for those details. Because, it seems  to me that trade secrets would mostly not be in the deal (why would they divulge their trade secrets to the govt? ), and would not be useful in answering questions that would be of interest to the public.  So, what I would like to get a feel for is why trade secrets would have anything to do with these questions?

Details like how much tax breaks the TATAs are getting, how much compensation is being paid to the landowners (in terms of actual cash or in terms of other jobs or something else) are not, in my view, trade secrets. The govt. has a responsibility of being transparent about these details.

Quote
Quote
The relevant point is what questions are being asked by the people who allege shadiness, and whether revealing the answers to those could reasonably hurt the company, in which case the TATA stance could be justified.



the relvant point is people alleging shadiness might have to get used to the fact that they have no right to get answers to all their questions.

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2008, 07:49:38 PM »
Quote
I received Rs 3 lakh for my land


Rs 3 lakhs for a bigha of land ??

So an acre of land for Rs 9 lakhs ?

isnt that low even by Tata's own standards, especially given the location of the land ?

Interestingly in
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php/topic,17482.msg233536.html#msg233536
it was said that the prices currently are 50-60 lakh per acre, last year it was 30 lakh per acre, and with the '50 percent more' cash offered by the govt. the price is
16 lakh/acre . The 9 lakh/acre that you are calculating here, probably corresponds to the previous offer of around 10 lakh /acre without the 50 percent raise. According to that article (I have no independent notion) this was about 1/3 the rate at that time, and the current offer is half the old rate.
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2008, 07:52:49 PM »
Attacking the idea or opinion would be just fine. That is not what you did.
In case you do not get it, that is a personal attack.  Just because you couple the personal attack with an attack on Bengalis in general does not make it any better, it only makes it worse.

What you do not get is that it does not matter to me who enunciates an idea. It's the idea that I attack. If it's individual A, so be it. If it's individual B, so be it.

I don't care what is the face of the individual who throws the idea. And those who wish to pronounce something as sweeping as "it had to be stopped"  are themselves responsible for getting themselves associated with that idea. It was their own wish to be identified with it. And I see no bravery in hiding behind a shield of "personal attack". If you can't tolerate your opinions being attacked, the solution is simple --don't have the opinions.
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2008, 07:57:05 PM »
Another editorial (Hindustan Times) that pushes the shareholding idea.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=25c3d8e9-74e5-43e8-94d3-dd1d2be21992&&Headline=Whose+brakes+failed%3f

Whose brakes failed?

Prem Shankar Jha
October 05, 2008

Ratan Tata claims that he has taken the decision to pull the Nano project out of West Bengal with great sadness. He has held one, single, person responsible for his decision — Mamata Banerjee — who “held a gun to his head and pulled the trigger”. Industry leaders have queued up behind him to predict a dire future for Bengal. “If it is difficult for the state to ensure security for someone like the Tatas,” said R. Seshasayee of Ashok Leyland, “it is easy to imagine what will happen to others.”

There is, however, another side to this story. Had you been listening closely to Tata’s press conference, you would have heard him say, “We believe compensation has been paid and that it is a fair compensation.” Paid by whom? Not by the Tatas. And that is the key to understanding why the company is so casually exiting West Bengal today. The Tatas did not pay for the land. The Rs 131 crore compensation paid to farmers and sharecroppers as of December 2006 was paid by the West Bengal government. The Tatas had taken the land from the West Bengal government on lease and the lease rent is a pittance.

In reality, therefore, the Tatas have pulled out so quickly because they had very little at stake in West Bengal. It is true that their investment in the Nano project runs to around Rs 1,500 crore. But the overwhelming proportion of this money has been spent on machinery — the hugely expensive robots that man the assembly lines, the tool and die, body and paint shops in any car plant today. The Tatas have been moving these out for some time. They will also move out generators, computers, specialised cabling and all other moveable items of office and factory equipment. Their final loss will thus be the flooring of their sheds, their investment in infrastructure, and the actual cost of erection of the plant and installation of machines. This will not be a small sum, and will be a dead loss, but one suspects that it will be much less than what West Bengal’s government has sunk into the acquisition of the land.

If the Tatas are not quite the wounded victims that Ratan Tata has made them out to be, Mamata Banerjee is not quite the villain she has been portrayed as being. If the Left and future governments, both in West Bengal and in New Delhi, learn the right lessons from Singur, she may well turn out to be India’s saviour. My eyes were opened to this possibility when I was shown Bengali TV coverage of how the land was actually acquired in 2006.

For the better part of 20 minutes, I saw sticks in policemen’s hands rising and falling with metronomic regularity to the accompaniment of sickening thwacks of wood meeting flesh. As the beating continued, the policemen leant further and further forward. It was apparent that their prey were on the ground but still being beaten. I saw men in their 60s being led away with torn and bleeding head wounds, and weeping, bruised women being supported out of the villages by social workers and Trinamool cadres. There were endless reels of footage, but I could not take any more.

Very little of this footage had appeared in the national channels. And the media had made it out that it was the Trinamool that had blocked the roads, bottled up the villagers and ‘forced’ the police to resort to ‘lathi charges’. No one bothered to ask just how the villagers’ consent had been obtained. No one asked why 400 or so of them were demanding their land back. Instead, we were deluded with ‘information’ that most of the landowners were absentees, and already had jobs in Kolkata and elsewhere. Not one commentator mentioned that with all new non-agricultural jobs being created in the unorganised sector and absolutely no form of social insurance, the little bits of land that the owners had were their ultimate and only security in life.

Are the blood and tears of the poor a necessary price of ‘development’? Was there no way of making the landholders and sharecroppers in Singur beneficiaries of ‘development’ instead of its victims? There was, but the Tatas never even considered it and took refuge in the legal plea that they were not involved in the acquisition of the land.

To see how easy it would have been to co-opt the landowners and sharecroppers, one needs to ask just one counterfactual question: what would have happened if the Tatas had decided to set aside just one quarter of 1 per cent of their annual sales revenue and distributed it as an annual royalty to the owners and sharecroppers, for the use of their land? With an annual turnover of Rs 5,000 crore (from 500,000 cars), the royalty would have amounted to Rs 125,000 per acre per year to be split between  landowners and sharecroppers. To recover this added outlay, the Tatas would have had to increase the price of their car by only Rs 250.

Would Mamata Banerjee really have spurned such an offer? Would the farmers have allowed her to? A senior Trinamool member of the Rajya Sabha told me some weeks ago that if the Tatas were prepared to make such an offer, Mamata would most probably accept it. But the Tatas never made it.

Ratan Tata cannot be blamed for not trying an approach that has never been tried before in this country. But what he has proved, beyond a shadow of doubt, is that he is no Jamshed Tata.

Today it is imperative for industrialists not to draw the wrong lessons from the Nano debacle. The Tatas may be able to leapfrog to Uttarakhand, Haryana, Karnataka or Maharashtra. All those governments are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of ‘bagging such a prestigious project’. But they haven’t faced their people yet, and the poor will also be drawing their lessons from Singur.

The stark truth is that the country is on the brink of class war. Bastar is today its epicentre. The security forces are fighting a losing battle against an estimated 6,000 armed Maoists who are receiving substantial aid from the local people because the state of Chhattisgarh has lined up $7.28 billion of investment in steel plants and iron ore mines in the next five years and has given out more than 150 prospecting licences covering 400-3,000 sq km to companies wanting to mine iron ore, diamonds, gold and other non-ferrous ores.

Development consumes land, and faster development consumes it faster. Singur, and Bastar are only the beginning.

Prem Shankar Jha is the author of The Twilight of the Nation-State
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kban1

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2008, 08:07:04 PM »
WV:

Quote
The 9 lakh/acre that you are calculating here, probably corresponds to the previous offer of around 10 lakh /acre without the 50 percent raise.

The 9 lakh I am calculating is based straight out of the figure quoted by the farmer himself. The article itself is post the tata pull out, so that figure of 3 lakhs for a bigha (1 bigha = .3033 acres) should be an updated number, not the original figure.

So the price of Rs 9 lakhs per acre of land is even below tata's own standard of paying Rs 9 -12 lakhs.

The other thing that prfsr pointed out (I noticed it in that article posted by prfsr itself) is the minimal differential in land prices between a city 150km from Kolkata vs 40km from Kolkata, not to mention the difference in soil quality and irrigation networks.
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2008, 10:22:34 PM »
WV:

Quote
The 9 lakh/acre that you are calculating here, probably corresponds to the previous offer of around 10 lakh /acre without the 50 percent raise.
The 9 lakh I am calculating is based straight out of the figure quoted by the farmer himself.
I know. But it does not say when he got that money. So, it might have been at the previous rate and it could explain the discrepancy ...  I don't even know if the extra compensation from present rates have been actually been handed out already. As for this being less than the 9-12 lakh, there could have been some approximations ... the 3 bigha may actually have been 2.75 bigha, and not an accurate statement.
Quote

 The article itself is post the tata pull out, so that figure of 3 lakhs for a bigha (1 bigha = .3033 acres) should be an updated number, not the original figure.

So the price of Rs 9 lakhs per acre of land is even below tata's own standard of paying Rs 9 -12 lakhs.

The other thing that prfsr pointed out (I noticed it in that article posted by prfsr itself) is the minimal differential in land prices between a city 150km from Kolkata vs 40km from Kolkata, not to mention the difference in soil quality and irrigation networks.
Even without this extra bit of argument (not suggesting it is unfair), the price tag of 9-12 Lakh or even 16 lakhs seems too low if the prices at that point there were already 30 lakh.
[/quote]
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kban1

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2008, 02:55:05 AM »
Quote
I know. But it does not say when he got that money. So, it might have been at the previous rate and it could explain the discrepancy ...  I don't even know if the extra compensation from present rates have been actually been handed out already. As for this being less than the 9-12 lakh, there could have been some approximations ... the 3 bigha may actually have been 2.75 bigha, and not an accurate statement.


First to clarify

The farmer had a bigha of land, not 3 bighas. I normalized it to an acre which is approximately 3 bighas so that I could compare that rate with Tata's stated policy.

Now based on what he got, it is clear that it didnt meet or was at the low end of tata's own scale.

Second,

I would not profer the benefit of the doubt here to Tata / Wb Govt considering the ground realities -- the ground reality being Tata announcing its pull out or intention thereof. Having already sunk a few hundred crore, what is the likelihood that another 50% will be coming this farmers way now ?

Third,
in your argument regarding approximations, you are implicitly assuming that Tata's internal rate is the market rate, and therefore some difference in measurement might account for the price differential.

Remember, tata's internal rate did not create a problem in Kharagpur, which suggests that the internal rate is a good approximation for the Kharagpur market.

I think one would be hard pressed to argue that the Kharagpur land market is equal to the Singur land market. So the fact remains that the price of the land paid for Singur is still likely to be on the lower side even after taking into account 1) the unlikely addition of another 50% (4.5 lakhs for a total of 13 lakhs per acre) and 2) the differentail in actual land value.

Quote
Even without this extra bit of argument (not suggesting it is unfair), the price tag of 9-12 Lakh or even 16 lakhs seems too low if the prices at that point there were already 30 lakh.


Yes, sir, this is what I was trying to point out. We are on the same page.
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proloy

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2008, 05:36:25 AM »
(Translated from the editorial piece in today's Anandabazar Patrika. This is the official, syndicated voice of the house -- not a columnist's article.)

http://www.anandabazar.com/6edit1.htm

Untimely Visarjan

The festive time for the Bengali has started. In this autumnal hour, the import of the departure of Tata Motors has not yet dawned on the Bengali. If it had, the Bengali would have realized that this luckless race has never earlier sunk into such impenetrable darkness. The dreams of development, progress are long forlorn; now the Bengali stands at the nadir of a bottomless pit. And there is no hope of a rescue from the pit on the horizon. If any hope were there, then the Bengali would not have indulged in festivity today; he'd have been mourning the demise of his future. The Bengali has not yet understood his destruction. For that very reason, despite bringing about this thorough annihilation single-handedly, Mamata Banerjee is still the leader of a large section of the people of the state. The reason for her agitation on the question of Singur is obvious. That she had unadulterated love for the farmer, or had any sense of responsibility towards the cause of farming, is hardly borne out by her decade-and-half long political career. Her sole motive was to bring a high tide to the moribund shores of her political life. Mamata is a deserving leader of the Bengali. She knows that the people of this state understand only one language -- the language of negativism. She made prime use of that language. The state has lost beyond measure. But what difference does it make to her? Her objective was to gain popularity, so that there is no encore of 2004 in the coming Lok Sabha elections. Mamata guessed that Singur will bring her that golden opportunity. And there is no reason to think so far that her surmise was misplaced. There is little chance that the departure of Tata Motors, and the sinking of the state's fortunes, will have any impact on her popularity. This very unfortunate truth shows why the Bengali will never manage to climb out of the abyss of futurelessness.

People do turn around from the brink of destruction. The history of civilization bears enough testimony to that. At the same time, history teaches a significant lesson -- only if one learns from one's mistakes can one stage a recovery. Not otherwise. The list of mistakes in Singur is long. The first, doubtless, is the "not allowed, and won't allow" tradition of the politics of negativism. The second mistake - not offering any viable alternative. Everybody, and not just Mamata, has a right to differ with the way the state government went about implementing the Tata factory. But with right comes also a responsibility -- of providing a viable alternative. Mamata's politics has never had anything to do with responsibility -- in this case too she washed her hands of it by offering to dispatch away the clutch of ancillary units. That this alternative is not feasible was lost on her. Perhaps she didn't even have the capability to comprehend that. That there is need for some amount of educatedness in politics is beyond the grasp of the Bengali. This was the third flaw. The fourth flaw -- obstructionism. Obstructing the roads leading to the factory, paralyzing the Durgapur Expressway for days on end, road-blocks in Kolkata, strikes -- every mode of agitation shows that development is not possible in this state, because this state is opposed to movement.

The calamity of the Bengali is that he'll learn no lesson from these mistakes. The reason is -- none of these mistakes are happening for the first time. The Bengali has made the same mistakes time and again, has paid the price for it, and gone back to repeating them. Self-destruction is ingrained in the Bengali character, in the Bengali marrow. These mistakes are the Bengali's weapons for self-destruction. Moreover, the Bengali refuses to even see these as mistakes. For him, this is the language of politics, the unputdownable weapon of protest. And the Bengali proved it again. To protest the departure of Tata Motors the mode adopted was -- block the Durgapur Expressway, hold a bandh. That this Bengali will not learn even one whit from his mistakes -- even a child shouldn't have any doubts about it. But character does change. Pirate Ratnakar too transformed into Maharishi Valmiki. That evolution took sixty thousand years. The age of this state is a mere sixty-one years. The Bengali too might change after sixty thousand years. Whether the race will even last that long, is an altogether different question.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 05:45:36 AM by proloy »
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keep-it-cool

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2008, 07:51:29 AM »
prfsr, i have paid only passing attention to the whole project. as a neutral party who thinks mamata is mostly a theatrical lady, I'm wondering if you could explain why this deal was shady?

Dex,
Mamata is a failed politician. Enough said. 

The deal was shady because as back2grave said the terms were never disclosed and also it was never clear why the factory had to be constructed on fertile agricultural land when there was less fertile land not that far away (WB is not a big state). Was it just coincidence that this pocket was not a stronghold of CPM?  It was expected the factory was going to make a lot of money. Were the land owners being appropriately compensated? How was the compensation calculated?



Why should compensation for land be based on how much money the factory will make? It should be independent of that, in my view, as the land owners cannot otherwise make a similar amount of money from such land.
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #64 on: October 06, 2008, 11:59:09 AM »

Why should compensation for land be based on how much money the factory will make? It should be independent of that, in my view, as the land owners cannot otherwise make a similar amount of money from such land.

Well, this is not exactly a normal transaction. The landowner does not completely have the right to say no. "We" decided that the land was needed for a factory and that  they better give it up. Don't you think sweetening the deal makes it a better (fairer) option?
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #65 on: October 06, 2008, 12:10:50 PM »

Why should compensation for land be based on how much money the factory will make? It should be independent of that, in my view, as the land owners cannot otherwise make a similar amount of money from such land.

Well, this is not exactly a normal transaction. The landowner does not completely have the right to say no. "We" decided that the land was needed for a factory and that  they better give it up. Don't you think sweetening the deal makes it a better (fairer) option?

Sweetening the deal, yes. Paying them above the market rate & relocating them work wise (maybe offer them jobs in the same factory, if they wish) & in terms of alternate residence would be fair. But, why link it to profits of the factory?

Will they be willing to accept the risk that the said factory may be a washout / perpetually loss making?

Had they been paid the same value (and I dont know whether this was fair) in the form of Tata Motors shares, they would be crying to this day - given how the stock has performed!
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2008, 01:03:42 PM »

Sweetening the deal, yes. Paying them above the market rate & relocating them work wise (maybe offer them jobs in the same factory, if they wish) & in terms of alternate residence would be fair. But, why link it to profits of the factory?

Will they be willing to accept the risk that the said factory may be a washout / perpetually loss making?

Had they been paid the same value (and I dont know whether this was fair) in the form of Tata Motors shares, they would be crying to this day - given how the stock has performed!


Well that is for you financial types to consider  ;D

Here is another view (from an economist).


http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=336472

Subir Gokarn:Messages from Singur

Subir Gokarn / New Delhi October 06, 2008, 0:02 IST

The state governments should design strategies so as to make them inclusive, says subir gokarn.
 
 
Tata Motors’ formal announcement of their decision to move the Nano project out of Singur brings to an end a rather complex story. It is complex because it is not at all clear who won and who lost, and whether the gains outweighed the losses. The collective stakeholders in Tata Motors obviously lost at one level, because, apart from the unrecoverable costs that they had already incurred, their strategy has been derailed. But, who knows? Locating the Nano project in a more conducive environment may ultimately prove to be its saviour.

The state of West Bengal may also have lost out in its ambitious plan to re-invent itself as a place to do business in. In the process, the government’s attempts to accommodate the changing aspirations of the state’s younger generations may have been permanently de-railed. But then, perhaps this episode shows us that the whole strategy was inadequately designed. It did not take into consideration the totality of stakeholder interests and, if not in Singur or Nandigram, it would have de-railed somewhere sooner or later.

And, while many people will portray Mamata Banerjee as the villain of the piece, there is always something appealing about the stubborn, determined underdog who brings down the rampaging giant — David vs. Goliath, Asterix vs. the Romans, Bhuvan of Lagaan vs. the British — the little guys are usually the good guys, at least in the story books. Will Ms Banerjee benefit from her role in this story to the extent that she will defeat the ruling Left Front in the next elections and give the state a new direction after 35 consecutive years of Communist rule?

There are all very important and interesting questions, but I would like to shift focus to what I think are some very significant messages from Singur for the fundamental transition that the Indian economy is going through. These are about some of the most basic issues that are dealt with in typical economics and political science textbooks — simple to comprehend in the abstract but, as Singur and many other episodes demonstrate, complicated in real life.

At the core of the situation are two economic issues — property rights and market efficiency. It would be fair to say that the entire history of land acquisition in pursuit of development in India has been plagued by problems related to the two. In the first few decades of the industrialisation-led growth strategy, large amounts of land were acquired for projects, but since these were typically set up in the public sector, permanent lifetime employment was an attractive proposition for the people in the area, whether they owned land or not. Pricing was also not as significant an issue because there really weren’t any obvious benchmarks set by competing bidders.

That scenario is now obsolete and the dominant role of private enterprise in large industrial projects completely changes the equation. Nobody can be guaranteed a job, even a temporary one, even people with appropriate skills, let alone those without any. This immediately differentiates between those who “own” land and those who don’t, since only the former are likely to benefit from the transaction. Even with this group, there are potential problems. First, in our agrarian context, property rights are difficult to establish. Second, in a market framework, ownership is, by definition, a full and exclusive claim on the market value of the asset owned.

In many instances, if this value were paid, the economics of the project would suffer. State intervention will certainly help to make the whole transaction more efficient and transparent, but it can also hinder the process of price discovery, so essential to an efficient market. The question is: are the benefits from the first large enough to offset the possible losses from the second as far as land-owners are concerned?

The second economic issue is essentially the problem of differential benefits. The threat to the livelihood of agricultural wage labour is significant. In any realistic scenario, the majority of people who worked on the land without owning it are unlikely to be considered for employment in the project that displaces them. The public sector would hire them all, with state finances effectively subsidising it. Private investors, however large-hearted, cannot afford this luxury. If a state government wants to promote industrial investment in previously agricultural areas, it better have a plan to mitigate the threat to the livelihoods of a large number of people who cannot claim property-related compensation.

The political issue is about the ability of a pluralist democracy to make long-term commitments. The economics of large projects are based on time horizons far beyond the span of one or two governments. They will become unviable if the commitments made by one government are at risk of being retracted by a successor. The current trajectory of the Indian economy represents several fundamental changes in the roles and significance of various stakeholders.

Public investment is making way for private enterprise in an increasing range of activities. The overarching industrial policy framework, which determined where investments would be made and how much, has long since disappeared, being replaced by an openly competitive bidding process being conducted by state governments. Dealing with the transformation will require concrete and credible long-term commitments by government to both investors and workers. This can only happen when parties across the entire political spectrum in a state agree to a common policy framework and stand by it whether they are in office or out of it.

“Multipartisanship” is essential to the government of the day being able to compete successfully in the race for new investments. This means that its industrial policy statement needs to have the endorsement of, at the very least, all parties who have the potential to form a government in the future. The need for such endorsement may impose limits on what the government can offer investors, but, it will undoubtedly provide the assurance that what is offered will not be retracted. For the typical project, a stable environment is more important than a fiscal or regulatory concession.

The simple message from Singur to state governments is: don’t assume that you have a monopoly on advancing the interests of the state. The more inclusive the process of designing your strategies is, the more likely they are to succeed — whether you are in office or not.

The writer is Chief Economist, Standard & Poor’s Asia-Pacific. The views are personal




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vincent

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2008, 05:21:22 PM »
Well, there are certain states in India where the industrial development is impossible because of politics and other reasons such as corruption etc. These are Bihar, UP, Orissa , Kerala and Bengal. I am surprised that Tata took the decision in the first place to go to Singur. They usually do not make such blunders.
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prfsr

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #68 on: October 06, 2008, 06:07:49 PM »
Well, there are certain states in India where the industrial development is impossible because of politics and other reasons such as corruption etc. These are Bihar, UP, Orissa , Kerala and Bengal. I am surprised that Tata took the decision in the first place to go to Singur. They usually do not make such blunders.

This is (in the case of WB) completely wrong. If you read an earlier post in this thread, there is a TATA plant progressing completely smoothly in Kharagpur. There are many IT firms working without too many problems.

As far as Bihar (before division) goes, perhaps you forgot Jamshedpur :)
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Dayal Baba

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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #69 on: October 06, 2008, 06:38:19 PM »

Why should compensation for land be based on how much money the factory will make? It should be independent of that, in my view, as the land owners cannot otherwise make a similar amount of money from such land.

Well, this is not exactly a normal transaction. The landowner does not completely have the right to say no. "We" decided that the land was needed for a factory and that  they better give it up. Don't you think sweetening the deal makes it a better (fairer) option?

Sweetening the deal, yes. Paying them above the market rate & relocating them work wise (maybe offer them jobs in the same factory, if they wish) & in terms of alternate residence would be fair. But, why link it to profits of the factory?

Will they be willing to accept the risk that the said factory may be a washout / perpetually loss making?

Had they been paid the same value (and I dont know whether this was fair) in the form of Tata Motors shares, they would be crying to this day - given how the stock has performed!

good point. giving shares to farmers is not logical.
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #70 on: October 06, 2008, 06:39:04 PM »
Well, there are certain states in India where the industrial development is impossible because of politics and other reasons such as corruption etc. These are Bihar, UP, Orissa , Kerala and Bengal. I am surprised that Tata took the decision in the first place to go to Singur. They usually do not make such blunders.

tatanagar aka jamshedpur...
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2008, 07:27:06 PM »
Historic Blunder Two
- Loss of a project that could have reversed exodus of 60s  

OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
 
Mamata History repeats itself, apparently. In Bengal’s political life, historic blunders repeat themselves.

Mamata Banerjee might lack the articulation — and the depth of frustration — of Jyoti Basu who called his party’s decision not to permit him to be Prime Minister an “historic blunder” some years after the deed. But five, or more or less, years from now even she might have occasion to reflect on this October and ask herself if this was the month of another historic blunder.

Even if she does not — because voters may still treat her kindly and no one looks inwards for answers until crippled by despair — nothing stops Bengal from treating the death of its people’s hope for industrial rebirth as the consequence of an historic blunder.

The loss and dejection Ratan Tata’s pullout, caused by Mamata “pulling the trigger”, has left in its numbing wake cannot be measured by the Rs 1,500 crore he was to spend. Nor by the potential loss of investment other businessmen would now be scared to make.

It’s a loss an entire people have suffered that can compare with the individual disappointment of being stopped, by factors beyond one’s control, from fulfilling a lifelong ambition when within handshaking distance.

Such dejection leaves you without the strength to get up. Or, as the minister Nirupam Sen said in the statement defining this state’s moment of despair, “I don’t want to live in Bengal”.

Many, like possibly Sen, can’t afford not to live in Bengal. That includes the willing and unwilling landlosers of Singur who are at the bottom of the despair scale. No land, no work, only the predatory nothing thought.

The Nano had caught the world’s imagination with the halo, ironically, of cheapness, never a ticket to celebritydom. There was no reason for it not to do so in Bengal once Singur became the chosen land. Tata’s entry into Bengal with such a project was the defining moment in Bengal’s history that snapped the trend of industrial desertification.

Just as G.D. Birla packing up and leaving was in the sixties at the height of the Naxalite movement. “I can’t understand how people who worship Lakshmi in every home can do this,” he had said in Bengali with sadness to a young reporter who later worked for an ABP publication.

An exodus that started with a Birla — Philips, Britannia, Brooke Bond, Lipton and Union Carbide followed — would have been reversed by a Tata.

Such was the project’s symbolism. That’s why the emptiness-inducing sense of loss.

Ratan Tata is a businessman who left under duress to cut his losses. Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee and Nirupam Sen are probably a dysfunctional duo at this point in time but will shortly have to pick themselves up by their bootstraps or the ends of their dhotis and get on with governance.

Mamata Banerjee may be feeling lost and sucking on the lollipop of a self-created conspiracy theory while she tries to fall asleep.

On her own she’s unlikely to light upon the realisation of having committed an historic blunder. The responsibility to make her realise lies elsewhere.
 
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081006/jsp/frontpage/story_9933514.jsp
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2008, 04:17:49 AM »
Salary Singur can’t spend
- 200 workers receive last pay, protesters block tracks and expressway
IMRAN AHMED SIDDIQUI


Singur, Oct. 4: Last night was the first time Sudip Dey, 29, couldn’t sleep before pay day.

The contract labourer was one of 200 local youths who today collected their last salary from what used to be the Nano project site till 24 hours earlier.

“Our future is ruined. How shall we survive now? I never thought Tata Motors would move out,” said a tearful Dey, who has to look after his ailing parents in Beraberi.

“When I was coming out of home, my mother asked me not to spend from the last salary.”

Many others in Singur were not ready to shed tears yet — anger burnt inside them side by side with the desperate hope of still persuading Tata to return.

CPM workers, voluntary landlosers and local material suppliers blocked railway tracks in the morning, and cut off Durgapur Expressway with logs and burning tyres till 2.30pm, demanding work resume at the Tata project site.

“We won’t let Tata go. It’s a matter of survival for us. We won’t let Mamata Banerjee destroy our future,” said Mohivrit Chakraborty, who was to join ancillary unit Tata Johnson before the pujas as a trainee accountant at a salary of Rs 8,500.

He and others plan to write to Ratan Tata to reverse his decision. “We’ll assure him the people of Singur are with him and nobody will be allowed to create any problem.”

But problem there was. Three CPM supporters — Uma Ghosh, 50, Ashtu Kolay, 48, and Tinkari Dhara, 42 — were beaten up at Berabari market. The CPM blamed Trinamul, which alleged Ghosh was hit while inciting people to dig up roads.

A group of villagers sent an “open letter” to chief minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee requesting him to ask Tata Motors to reconsider their decision. “If work doesn’t resume… many who earned their living from the project will be compelled to commit suicide,” the letter said.

Dey, clutching his last salary of Rs 3,100, also spoke of suicide. “We have lost our land and our jobs. We have no choice but to kill ourselves.”

He and the other youths received their pay for August, the month Mamata began her Singur siege and forced work to a stop at the site.



Dey had been part of the factory’s housekeeping staff for the past two years. “My parents are old and sick and they need me here. But I shall have to move to Calcutta to find a job,” he said.

“These boys were extremely sincere, they wouldn’t miss a single day’s work,” said one of the four officials of BVG Pvt Ld — the hiring contractor — who handed out the salaries. “I remember how excited they were after getting their first salary. But see the despair on their faces today.”


Equally shattered were the 25 women who had been running a canteen inside the complex for two-and-a-half years after receiving a month’s training at a catering institute in Taratolla.

“Some 200 employees would lunch at the canteen every day. The number plunged after Mamata began her agitation. The canteen was open till yesterday and six policemen had their meal. But it’s closed today,” said Jharna Bar, a Singerberi resident.

The women don’t know how they would repay the Rs 50,000 loan they had taken to buy a refrigerator, microwave oven and utensils.

“Each of us earned Rs 1,500-2,200 a month. Life was changing fast and we were so happy,” Jharna said, showing off the small refrigerator and colour TV set she had bought for her family six months ago.

She and her team-mates too had given up their land. “Our husbands worked as night guards at the factory. Mamata has killed our dream.”

The debts of the sub- contractors who supplied material to the factory run into lakhs. “We bought machines against bank loans and now can’t pay the EMI,” said Anup Ghosh.

The pent-up anger had erupted last night with villagers blocking Durgapur Expressway since 9. The tracks at Kamarkundu, Madhusudanpur and Diara stations were blockaded from 7am today for one to two hours.

The expressway blockade was lifted following two hours of persuasion by police and local CPM leaders, who had earlier stopped the protesters from digging up the road.

A 10-hour bandh shut down Singur and Kamarkundu but not Beraberi market. Buses did not run on the Tarakeswar-Baidyabati highway and the Ratanpur potato trading centre was closed.

The mood in the villages, divided down the middle, was bitter and police did not rule out violence.

Inputs from our bureau



Loss sinks in for Singur unwilling
IMRAN AHMED SIDDIQUI

Singur, Oct. 5: Trinamul Congress leaders are celebrating a “people’s victory” but many among the “people” have suddenly realised they may have lost.

Their land and their money, both.

Till two days ago, unwilling landlosers Lal Mohan Mal and Kamala Ghosh had clung to a two-year-old conviction about impending triumph, visiting Mamata Banerjee’s podium regularly during the siege. But with their leaders’ disappearance from Singur after Ratan Tata’s pullout announcement, reality has sunk in.

Today Mal, 70, who had refused to collect his compensation cheque for Rs 9 lakh (to which another Rs 4.5 lakh would have been added under the new rehab package), rued: “We haven’t taken the money, nor are we getting back our land. What will happen to us?”

Mal, who had been a CPM supporter, had joined Mamata’s movement to save his three bighas in Gopalnagar, which brought him Rs 30,000-40,000 a year.

“Had I taken the cheque like the others, we could have earned some interest. Now we have nothing,” he said, pointing to his plot where an office-cum-warehouse has come up.

“I regret not accepting the package,” said Kamala, 69, of Bajemelia, a lifelong Trinamul supporter. “I don’t belong to any political party any more; I want a secure future for my four jobless sons and I can go to both Mamata Banerjee and Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee to seek help.”

The fears of Mal and Kamala may not be unfounded: industries minister Nirupam Sen today reaffirmed that the law didn’t allow the government to return the land.

He added that the unclaimed cheques — which the government was begging the farmers to accept till the other day — would now be in custody of the courts where the acquisition is being fought.

Mamata has vowed to resume the agitation to get the land back, but even those among the “unwilling” who are still gung-ho about the Tata pullout are asking questions their leaders aren’t around to answer.

One question is: “Shall we really get back our land and, if so, when?”

A second is: “Will it retain its fertile character with so much filling, levelling and construction having taken place?”

The big leaders — Mamata, social activist Anuradha Talwar and Save Farmland Committee leader Purnendu Bose — no longer visit Singur, so the farmers are looking for some reassurance from the local leaders.

But committee convener Becharam Manna and MLA Rabindranath Bhattacharya are no longer visible, Singur residents say.

“They would visit our village every night and spend hours persuading us not to accept the cheques. But they haven’t turned up even once after Tata announced the pullout. Where are they now?” asked Sanath Ghosh of Bajemelia.


This afternoon, The Telegraph visited Manna’s Ratanpur home where his mother Bimala said he hadn’t returned since last night.

“Don’t ask unnecessary questions; I’m busy at meetings. We’re trying our best to get the farmers back their land,” Manna told this correspondent over the phone before ending the call.

Bhattacharya denied he was avoiding his constituency. “I’m busy with meetings and that’s why people don’t see me.”

Did he have an answer to the farmers’ questions? The MLA merely repeated what Mamata had said: a fresh agitation for return of the land would start after the pujas.

“We are losing hope with each passing day. How can they leave us in the lurch like this?” said Sailendranath Karar, 80, whose 2.7 bighas would be worth Rs 12 lakh in compensation. The money would have paid for his medical treatment and helped secure the future of his three grandchildren.

“We are close to starving. We can’t buy enough food for the 11 of us,” he said.

---------------------------------------------------

Surprising how these people are talking of work, food, salary and suicide when there are so many interesting questions of developmental economics, transactional accountability, legal niceties of the right to information, market efficiency, soil fertility, environmental upkeep, and other broader issues still waiting to be resolved. They are begging to open the factory, without even realizing the historic opportunity that has arrived on them to bask in the glory of being the object of such lively debate and discussion. Shame on them.

And how ungrateful they are. They won't even allow Mamata a vacation after such a long fight. What's more, even after she has already given a promise to resume work after the Pujas.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 04:22:18 AM by proloy »
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2008, 05:38:36 AM »


With the blessings of Ma Durga, we have done it. Again. Celebration time!

Puja pandal mimicking the (erstwhile) Singur factory. Tala band!
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2008, 11:55:33 AM »
This tragedy is approaching (but hopefully will not reach) Nandigram proportions.
The moral of the story is very clear, and one that communists have taught time and again. The next time people will accept peanuts (or nothing even) when the govt seizes their land -- what is the point not agreeing? The land will be taken at gunpoint, no money is going to be given, a long litigation may end up with land unfit for agriculture being returned and even the 3000 rupees/month job they get would not be given. 

Long live communism in Bengal.
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2008, 06:59:18 AM »
Gujarat is becoming has become an enviable state under Modi's administration. What a shellacking he has given Buddadheb!
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Re: Sourav Ganguly writes to Ratan Tata on Singur
« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2008, 07:15:14 AM »
Modi now says he hopes Buddha and Mamata unite for the sake of Bengal .. talk about rubbing it in
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