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LosingNow

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KOTA candidates..
« on: September 30, 2008, 03:32:00 PM »
Article from WSJ.
(I have standing instructions to my recruiting team in India to seek and screen out people who entered IITs/Engg colleges through the KOTA route. These guys are incredibly good in taking exams but very poor in thinking out of the box and solving unstructured problems. KOTA takes out the thinking abilities of these people)
--
India's Cram-School Confidential: Two Years, One Test, 40,000 Students
Town Fills With Teens Studying Full-Time
For a College Entrance Exam; 'Bansalites Rock'
By ERIC BELLMAN
 
KOTA, India -- Hoping to boost his chances of getting into a top college, Rohit Agarwal quit his high school and left home.

The 16-year-old moved from the far northeast corner of India in June, with two suitcases and a shoulder bag. He took a two-hour flight and a six-hour train ride to the dusty town of Kota, India's cram-school capital.
More than 40,000 students show up in the arid state of Rajasthan every year, looking to attend one of the 100-plus coaching schools here. These intensive programs, which are separate from regular high school, prepare students for college-entrance exams. In Kota, most of the schools focus on the prestigious Indian Institutes of Technology.

More than 40,000 students show up in Kota every year looking to attend one of its 100-plus coaching schools.

The seven IITs nationwide are statistically tougher to get into than Harvard or Cambridge. While around 310,000 students took the entrance exam this April, only the top 8,600 were accepted. A whopping one-third of those winners in the current academic year passed through Kota's cramming regimen.

"If we stayed at home, we just wouldn't be able to study enough," says Mr. Agarwal as he takes a break from lessons. "If you don't study hard, you won't get admission."

Today, he starts studying at 7 a.m., works on practice problems until noon. After lunch, he goes to class, where he gets the answers to the problems, gets home around 8 p.m. and does homework until midnight.

Kota has become a cram-industry boom town as more Indians seek to send their children to college and economic expansion has far outstripped the increase in college placements, making the competition fiercer.

Students study full-time for two years just for one entrance exam, mostly for the IITs but also for other universities and colleges. The rigor has become part of its selling point: As Kota's reputation for success has spread, more young hopefuls have flocked to the city.

"At first, around eight of us studied around my dining-room table. Then I added a few stools to make it 12, then I added a foot to each side of the table," says Vinod Kumar Bansal, who is credited with starting the cram-school craze when he began tutoring students in the 1980s. He went on to found Bansal Classes, the city's first cram school, called "coaching institutes" here.

It all started because Mr. Bansal grew ill. He was working in a chemicals factory when he started having trouble climbing steps; he later discovered he had muscular dystrophy, a hereditary muscle disease for which there is no cure. "My plan was to become a chief engineer of the plant or a general manager but things went in a different direction," he says.

A few of his early students got into an IIT and word spread. Parents in Kota, and then beyond, started asking for his help. In 1991, he started a school, Bansal Classes. He initiated an entrance exam for his own school to identify the brightest prospects for IIT success.

He developed an intensive study system that bombards students with test questions for nine hours a day for two years. They only teach what is on the IIT exams -- mathematics, physics and chemistry.

Now, Bansal Classes' 17,000 students study six days a week. One Sunday a month, they have a six-hour test which is set up just like the IIT exam. After two years, students have taken the mock test more than 20 times.

The course of classes costs up to $1,500 a year, a hefty price for many Indian families. But the payoff can be huge: An IIT degree vaults a graduate into the global elite. Graduates include Vinod Khosla, co-founder of Sun Microsystems Inc., and Arun Sarin, former chief executive of Vodafone Group PLC, the U.K.-based phone company. More than 1,500 Bansal Classes students got into IIT in the academic year that started in July.

Last year, Bansal Classes opened a new, bigger campus that is in better condition than some IITs and is fully wheelchair accessible for Mr. Bansal, who still teaches up to five classes a day. Girls represent 13% of the students, a percentage that is climbing. They wear light-blue polo shirts that say, "Bansalite today, IITian tomorrow." The boys have no uniforms.

The Bansal campus is strangely quiet. Teachers say there are rarely disciplinary problems, except for the occasional student sneaking into a class to repeat it, and a bit of graffiti. Even that is aspirational: The writing on one metal bench says, "Bansalites rock, IIT rocks, Lyf after IIT rox."

Mr. Bansal, 58, says he is now worth more than $20 million. His mobility has declined to the point where he can barely lift a pen. But he says being in a wheelchair 12 hours a day means he has more time to think of challenging questions for students. "Teaching is my breakfast, lunch and dinner," he says.

IIT officials have no official opinion on the cram schools. However, some public and private schools have complained that they are losing their brightest students to such programs.

While some parents complain that the coaching classes give students an unfair advantage and an unbalanced education, Bansal teachers say their students aren't taught enough in regular schooling, so cram courses are needed to help them get into the IITs.

The success of Bansal Classes spawned dozens of imitators, many of them started by Mr. Bansal's former employees. Some even teach students how to ace the entrance exam to get into Bansal Classes.

Cramming has been the salvation of Kota, an industrial center in the 1970s that then fell on hard times. In the past three years, new malls, restaurants, hotels, Internet cafes and clothing stores began to spring up to serve the 16- and 17-year-old cram kids. Many homeowners have added second and third floors to rent out to students.

Balwan Diwani, manager of Milan Cycle, a bike shop in Kota, says bicycle sales have surged to more than 2,000 a year from fewer than 200 five years ago. Mamta Bansal, no relation to the school founder, quit her job as a maid to start a service to deliver boxed lunches and dinners to 30 students as they study. "We try to make what their mothers would cook for them," she says. "I have had to learn how to make dishes from Gujarat, the Punjab and southern India."

Local schools also have benefited: Cram students have to attend regular classes so they can pass their high-school exams and graduate. Some high schools have early morning classes so cram students can finish early and move on to cramming.

"There used to be a lot of hooliganism and goons," says Pradeep Singh Gour, director of the Lawrence and Mayo Public School in Kota. "Now the entire city is like a university campus."

Mr. Agarwal, the student from the northeast, says that if he gets into IIT, he would like to study aeronautical engineering and eventually work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the U.S. One of his cousins used his IIT degree to get a high-paying job working for Merrill Lynch & Co. in Tokyo.

He got average scores on recent practice exams, though, which he knows will not be good enough. "IITs seats are limited but boys trying to get in are unlimited," he says.

Write to Eric Bellman at eric.bellman@wsj.com

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RicePlateReddy

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2008, 07:20:59 PM »
I have standing instructions to my recruiting team in India to seek and screen out people who entered IITs/Engg colleges through the KOTA route. These guys are incredibly good in taking exams but very poor in thinking out of the box and solving unstructured problems. KOTA takes out the thinking abilities of these people

I think that is a sweeping generalization. There are probably sufficient natively smart people who head there because of peer pressure. That institution can't "ruin" them. From whatever I read, it loads them up on work, makes sure they waste no time, and gives them numerous practice exams to improve exam performance.

Why not subject any serious candidate to a qualification test that requires 'thinking out of the box' without worrying about where they come from?
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2008, 07:47:16 PM »
I have standing instructions to my recruiting team in India to seek and screen out people who entered IITs/Engg colleges through the KOTA route. These guys are incredibly good in taking exams but very poor in thinking out of the box and solving unstructured problems. KOTA takes out the thinking abilities of these people

I think that is a sweeping generalization. There are probably sufficient natively smart people who head there because of peer pressure. That institution can't "ruin" them. From whatever I read, it loads them up on work, makes sure they waste no time, and gives them numerous practice exams to improve exam performance.

Why not subject any serious candidate to a qualification test that requires 'thinking out of the box' without worrying about where they come from?

I agree.
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LosingNow

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2008, 08:03:50 PM »

Why not subject any serious candidate to a qualification test that requires 'thinking out of the box' without worrying about where they come from?
which we did (and still do).. and guess what, these guys invariably fail them. Believe it or not, it is uncanny!!!! (Actually once they fail- mostly to our surprise given their resume, we try to dig into the past .. and invariably find out that they had gone to KOTA ;D)
--
BTW, others may have had different experience than this.. I have only interviewed a few 100 of these people .. and I am basing this only on "our" experience
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2008, 08:10:12 PM »

Why not subject any serious candidate to a qualification test that requires 'thinking out of the box' without worrying about where they come from?
which we did (and still do).. and guess what, these guys invariably fail them. Believe it or not, it is uncanny!!!! (Actually once they fail- mostly to our surprise given their resume, we try to dig into the past .. and invariably find out that they had gone to KOTA ;D)
--
BTW, others may have had different experience than this.. I have only interviewed a few 100 of these people .. and I am basing this only on "our" experience

I am curious - what are your questions like? Are these case studies or IQ tests or something else?
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LosingNow

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2008, 08:22:37 PM »

Why not subject any serious candidate to a qualification test that requires 'thinking out of the box' without worrying about where they come from?
which we did (and still do).. and guess what, these guys invariably fail them. Believe it or not, it is uncanny!!!! (Actually once they fail- mostly to our surprise given their resume, we try to dig into the past .. and invariably find out that they had gone to KOTA ;D)
--
BTW, others may have had different experience than this.. I have only interviewed a few 100 of these people .. and I am basing this only on "our" experience

I am curious - what are your questions like? Are these case studies or IQ tests or something else?
We do case interviews (description of different types of -simple - situations and have them think through issues), analytical tests (not IQ) .. more like trend graphs, correlation graphs, tables with data ..and we ask them to interpret as to what might be happening in that situation etc. We spend about 1 hour of a 3 hour interview assessing this .. the rest being spent on technical and general fit.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 08:27:21 PM by winningnow »
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2008, 08:45:44 PM »

Why not subject any serious candidate to a qualification test that requires 'thinking out of the box' without worrying about where they come from?
which we did (and still do).. and guess what, these guys invariably fail them. Believe it or not, it is uncanny!!!! (Actually once they fail- mostly to our surprise given their resume, we try to dig into the past .. and invariably find out that they had gone to KOTA ;D)
--
BTW, others may have had different experience than this.. I have only interviewed a few 100 of these people .. and I am basing this only on "our" experience

I am curious - what are your questions like? Are these case studies or IQ tests or something else?
We do case interviews (description of different types of -simple - situations and have them think through issues), analytical tests (not IQ) .. more like trend graphs, correlation graphs, tables with data ..and we ask them to interpret as to what might be happening in that situation etc. We spend about 1 hour of a 3 hour interview assessing this .. the rest being spent on technical and general fit.

Interesting.... so the people not from Kota actually do better! I wonder if they (Kota guys) are too fixed on using their bag of tricks. That is always a risk in specialized test prep.

BTW, apparently people from Iran and China also do lots of specialized training for competitions. Among other things they do very well at college programming contests using the same strategy.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2008, 09:21:28 PM »
which we did (and still do).. and guess what, these guys invariably fail them. Believe it or not, it is uncanny!!!! (Actually once they fail- mostly to our surprise given their resume, we try to dig into the past .. and invariably find out that they had gone to KOTA ;D)
--
BTW, others may have had different experience than this.. I have only interviewed a few 100 of these people .. and I am basing this only on "our" experience

100 is a decent sample. You actually found 100 Kota people who failed the test and there was much better pass rate among other non Kotas? Are all Kotas equal  ;D ? Are people tagging on 'Kota' training for false perception reasons (which in your case is backfiring!). No one verifies what you actually did in high school ....
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WicketView

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2008, 09:34:57 PM »
Article from WSJ.
(I have standing instructions to my recruiting team in India to seek and screen out people who entered IITs/Engg colleges through the KOTA route. These guys are incredibly good in taking exams but very poor in thinking out of the box and solving unstructured problems. KOTA takes out the thinking abilities of these people)
--
India's Cram-School Confidential: Two Years, One Test, 40,000 Students
Town Fills With Teens Studying Full-Time
For a College Entrance Exam; 'Bansalites Rock'
By ERIC BELLMAN
 
KOTA, India -- Hoping to boost his chances of getting into a top college, Rohit Agarwal quit his high school and left home.

The 16-year-old moved from the far northeast corner of India in June, with two suitcases and a shoulder bag. He took a two-hour flight and a six-hour train ride to the dusty town of Kota, India's cram-school capital.
More than 40,000 students show up in the arid state of Rajasthan every year, looking to attend one of the 100-plus coaching schools here. These intensive programs, which are separate from regular high school, prepare students for college-entrance exams. In Kota, most of the schools focus on the prestigious Indian Institutes of Technology.

More than 40,000 students show up in Kota every year looking to attend one of its 100-plus coaching schools.

The seven IITs nationwide are statistically tougher to get into than Harvard or Cambridge. While around 310,000 students took the entrance exam this April, only the top 8,600 were accepted. A whopping one-third of those winners in the current academic year passed through Kota's cramming regimen.

"If we stayed at home, we just wouldn't be able to study enough," says Mr. Agarwal as he takes a break from lessons. "If you don't study hard, you won't get admission."

Today, he starts studying at 7 a.m., works on practice problems until noon. After lunch, he goes to class, where he gets the answers to the problems, gets home around 8 p.m. and does homework until midnight.

Kota has become a cram-industry boom town as more Indians seek to send their children to college and economic expansion has far outstripped the increase in college placements, making the competition fiercer.

Students study full-time for two years just for one entrance exam, mostly for the IITs but also for other universities and colleges. The rigor has become part of its selling point: As Kota's reputation for success has spread, more young hopefuls have flocked to the city.

"At first, around eight of us studied around my dining-room table. Then I added a few stools to make it 12, then I added a foot to each side of the table," says Vinod Kumar Bansal, who is credited with starting the cram-school craze when he began tutoring students in the 1980s. He went on to found Bansal Classes, the city's first cram school, called "coaching institutes" here.

It all started because Mr. Bansal grew ill. He was working in a chemicals factory when he started having trouble climbing steps; he later discovered he had muscular dystrophy, a hereditary muscle disease for which there is no cure. "My plan was to become a chief engineer of the plant or a general manager but things went in a different direction," he says.

A few of his early students got into an IIT and word spread. Parents in Kota, and then beyond, started asking for his help. In 1991, he started a school, Bansal Classes. He initiated an entrance exam for his own school to identify the brightest prospects for IIT success.

He developed an intensive study system that bombards students with test questions for nine hours a day for two years. They only teach what is on the IIT exams -- mathematics, physics and chemistry.

Now, Bansal Classes' 17,000 students study six days a week. One Sunday a month, they have a six-hour test which is set up just like the IIT exam. After two years, students have taken the mock test more than 20 times.

The course of classes costs up to $1,500 a year, a hefty price for many Indian families. But the payoff can be huge: An IIT degree vaults a graduate into the global elite. Graduates include Vinod Khosla, co-founder of Sun Microsystems Inc., and Arun Sarin, former chief executive of Vodafone Group PLC, the U.K.-based phone company. More than 1,500 Bansal Classes students got into IIT in the academic year that started in July.

Last year, Bansal Classes opened a new, bigger campus that is in better condition than some IITs and is fully wheelchair accessible for Mr. Bansal, who still teaches up to five classes a day. Girls represent 13% of the students, a percentage that is climbing. They wear light-blue polo shirts that say, "Bansalite today, IITian tomorrow." The boys have no uniforms.

The Bansal campus is strangely quiet. Teachers say there are rarely disciplinary problems, except for the occasional student sneaking into a class to repeat it, and a bit of graffiti. Even that is aspirational: The writing on one metal bench says, "Bansalites rock, IIT rocks, Lyf after IIT rox."

Mr. Bansal, 58, says he is now worth more than $20 million. His mobility has declined to the point where he can barely lift a pen. But he says being in a wheelchair 12 hours a day means he has more time to think of challenging questions for students. "Teaching is my breakfast, lunch and dinner," he says.

IIT officials have no official opinion on the cram schools. However, some public and private schools have complained that they are losing their brightest students to such programs.

While some parents complain that the coaching classes give students an unfair advantage and an unbalanced education, Bansal teachers say their students aren't taught enough in regular schooling, so cram courses are needed to help them get into the IITs.

The success of Bansal Classes spawned dozens of imitators, many of them started by Mr. Bansal's former employees. Some even teach students how to ace the entrance exam to get into Bansal Classes.

Cramming has been the salvation of Kota, an industrial center in the 1970s that then fell on hard times. In the past three years, new malls, restaurants, hotels, Internet cafes and clothing stores began to spring up to serve the 16- and 17-year-old cram kids. Many homeowners have added second and third floors to rent out to students.

Balwan Diwani, manager of Milan Cycle, a bike shop in Kota, says bicycle sales have surged to more than 2,000 a year from fewer than 200 five years ago. Mamta Bansal, no relation to the school founder, quit her job as a maid to start a service to deliver boxed lunches and dinners to 30 students as they study. "We try to make what their mothers would cook for them," she says. "I have had to learn how to make dishes from Gujarat, the Punjab and southern India."

Local schools also have benefited: Cram students have to attend regular classes so they can pass their high-school exams and graduate. Some high schools have early morning classes so cram students can finish early and move on to cramming.

"There used to be a lot of hooliganism and goons," says Pradeep Singh Gour, director of the Lawrence and Mayo Public School in Kota. "Now the entire city is like a university campus."

Mr. Agarwal, the student from the northeast, says that if he gets into IIT, he would like to study aeronautical engineering and eventually work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the U.S. One of his cousins used his IIT degree to get a high-paying job working for Merrill Lynch & Co. in Tokyo.

He got average scores on recent practice exams, though, which he knows will not be good enough. "IITs seats are limited but boys trying to get in are unlimited," he says.

Write to Eric Bellman at eric.bellman@wsj.com
This seems to be a recent phenomenon that has come up. While the article states that IIT officials have no official position on this, I have recently met a few IIT professors (obviously their position is unofficial)  who concur with WN's  position on the Kota candidates, incidentally using the very same phrase 'unstructured problems' and 'thinking out of the box' to summarize why Kota was bad for the future, and needs to be stopped,  by changing the structure of the entrance exams. While there is definitely always scope of improvement in this direction, I believe this is easier said than done.

Interestingly, WN, are candidates required to reveal that they were Kota candidates,  or is there some independent way in which you can check those records?
 
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2008, 10:36:58 PM »
This seems to be a recent phenomenon that has come up. While the article states that IIT officials have no official position on this, I have recently met a few IIT professors (obviously their position is unofficial)  who concur with WN's  position on the Kota candidates, incidentally using the very same phrase 'unstructured problems' and 'thinking out of the box' to summarize why Kota was bad for the future, and needs to be stopped,  by changing the structure of the entrance exams. While there is definitely always scope of improvement in this direction, I believe this is easier said than done.

I don't understand some of these IIT professors. The entrance exam can be structured in any way they see fit, as they seem to acknowledge. We have been hearing about the Kota tutors for a while now. So why the lethargy?

When I was familiar with the system many moons ago, the questions in the entrance exam (except perhaps Chemistry) largely could not be answered by rote. At least as far as the syllabus was concerned, there was no possibility of "running out of questions". Access to previous year IIT question papers was easy and was public information. Knowing the pattern helped understand what level of complexity was permissible, given the syllabus.

I fail to see how it is impossible to set a Physics or Math paper given the same syllabus material, that encapsulates so-called thinking outside the box. (Aside: is there any evidence that an overwhelming majority of IIT profs are capable of thinking outside the box?)

There is no point in IIT crying that Kota has gamed the system. That is a good sign of progress. Who prevented them from altering the syllabus or the topics of the papers proactively rather than when it was too late? Recently, the director of IIT-M claimed that he preferred using the 12th standard exam to largely influence admission which was quite baffling to me. If there ever was a case of 'trivially' gaming the system through pure rote, the CBSE it is. What prevents Kota from offering super intense CBSE residence schools to game that too (arguably, it would be much easier since more time spent on rote activities has more overall efficiency).

A single exam can never be the theoretically best filter, and any exam based on a syllabus can be gamed. That is no reason to blame Kota.
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2008, 11:43:15 PM »

I don't understand some of these IIT professors. The entrance exam can be structured in any way they see fit, as they seem to acknowledge. We have been hearing about the Kota tutors for a while now. So why the lethargy?

Back in the old days at least, (only) a small coterie worried about the JEE and controlled all matters JEE. It is not clear if they acknowledge the problem.

Add to this the fact that it is VERY difficult to design a good exam and
MUCH harder to design one that is unexpected. They are toeing a fine line here - if it is too unexpected (routine) everyone does badly (well) and they lose discrimination. Again back in the old days they used to get what is called the floor effect -- the highest mark in a certain year in Math was 47% -- so you can imagine the huge clustering at the bottom. Anecdotally each mark would change ranks by double digits.
 
Quote
When I was familiar with the system many moons ago, the questions in the entrance exam (except perhaps Chemistry) largely could not be answered by rote. At least as far as the syllabus was concerned, there was no possibility of "running out of questions". Access to previous year IIT question papers was easy and was public information. Knowing the pattern helped understand what level of complexity was permissible, given the syllabus.
The questions are STILL very hard. The question is not whether the questions are easy but whether there is a bag of tricks that can be learnt to score high. Apparently the Kota people do have a good bag. This is nothing new. In the heyday of Agarwal and Brilliant Tutorials they did the same (anybody remember Mr Karuppannan the Math guy from Brilliant?)

Quote
I fail to see how it is impossible to set a Physics or Math paper given the same syllabus material, that encapsulates so-called thinking outside the box. (Aside: is there any evidence that an overwhelming majority of IIT profs are capable of thinking outside the box?)
Good question :) In the old days the majority were horrible and I suspect not capable of passing the JEE Math exam, leave alone think outside boxes. Things are much better now.

Quote
There is no point in IIT crying that Kota has gamed the system. That is a good sign of progress. Who prevented them from altering the syllabus or the topics of the papers proactively rather than when it was too late? Recently, the director of IIT-M claimed that he preferred using the 12th standard exam to largely influence admission which was quite baffling to me. If there ever was a case of 'trivially' gaming the system through pure rote, the CBSE it is. What prevents Kota from offering super intense CBSE residence schools to game that too (arguably, it would be much easier since more time spent on rote activities has more overall efficiency).

A single exam can never be the theoretically best filter, and any exam based on a syllabus can be gamed. That is no reason to blame Kota.

I agree. If they are able to game the system good for them.
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kban1

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2008, 11:49:32 PM »
All of this assumes that the JEE system is actually a viable one worth continuing ?
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 12:27:29 AM »
All of this assumes that the JEE system is actually a viable one worth continuing ?

Sir,
These one liners do not befit you -- please define the parameters  ;D

Viable for who? IIT? Industry? Academia?

In what sense -- in that it gets good people? The best people?

These are not facetious questions - many people (students/faculty/administrators) have no consensus on what it is the IIT's aim to produce. However, that is a separate discussion.

One criticism that is absolutely valid is that there is no pedagogical study (to my knowledge) of the effectiveness of this exam. However it is not an easy study to conduct, especially if you want to study the abilities of people who do not get through.

Look, the fact is that these engg colleges (the whole lot of them) take in great students and churn out below par output. To that extent they do not need the JEE to be optimally effective (in any sense). To them it is an effective tool to screen out 3k students from 300k applicants (or something in those ballparks).
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2008, 12:39:05 AM »
All of this assumes that the JEE system is actually a viable one worth continuing ?

It is like the Indian middle order. Propose a new one, debate the merits vis-a-vis the existing one and then let the chips fall.
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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2008, 12:43:30 AM »
Add to this the fact that it is VERY difficult to design a good exam and
MUCH harder to design one that is unexpected. They are toeing a fine line here - if it is too unexpected (routine) everyone does badly (well) and they lose discrimination. Again back in the old days they used to get what is called the floor effect -- the highest mark in a certain year in Math was 47% -- so you can imagine the huge clustering at the bottom. Anecdotally each mark would change ranks by double digits.


Keep in mind that there are 3 subjects not just math, which is notorious for low scores; plus each mark would change ranks by double digits often even if you have higher scores because clustering occurs at a high enough baseline too.

Quote
The questions are STILL very hard. The question is not whether the questions are easy but whether there is a bag of tricks that can be learnt to score high. Apparently the Kota people do have a good bag. This is nothing new. In the heyday of Agarwal and Brilliant Tutorials they did the same (anybody remember Mr Karuppannan the Math guy from Brilliant?)


Dealing and progressing along what is considered an "achievement" trajectory in a career requires a bag of tricks (with the right place - right time - right connections add on). So why expect any different here. What makes "A" intellectually smarter over "B" is in some form, a bag of tricks the latter is able to employ.


RAJAT GUPTA: If I may switch topics a little bit and talk a little bit about education and get your views. While IIT has done so well they are still in a sense organized along very traditional boundaries, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, et cetera, et cetera. Many of the breakthroughs you talk about are cross-disciplinary, they are in new fields like bioinformatics, biomedical engineering, so on and so forth. What's your view of the future educational institution? What advice would you have on IITs in terms of how they should architect themselves and conduct research, conduct programs and so on?

BILL GATES: Well, there's one thing that IITs have done that I would never tamper with and that is the merit-based approach that's used. (Applause.) If you get the inputs right it helps a lot with the outputs. (Laughter.)

When I was at Harvard I had this style where I never attended any class, any class that I was signed up for because I was so intimidated by how many smart people were there, I thought, "Well, I have to do something a little bit different."

RAJAT GUPTA: Most of these people here also don't attend any class. (Laughter.)

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/billg/speeches/2003/01-17iit.aspx
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 12:53:56 AM by ShortSquatLeg »
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2008, 01:24:30 AM »
SSL,
I think the whole point behind the objection is that the bag of tricks at Kota are not useful outside JEE-type exams. Not that anybody objects to the idea of a bag of tricks.
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kban1

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2008, 01:51:39 AM »
Quote
All of this assumes that the JEE system is actually a viable one worth continuing ?

Is JEE the best system for determining who is intellectually capable of undertaking the rigor of Eng or Medical studies ? That's the question we need to ask ourselves.

Out of 500,000 who sit for the exam, less than 10,000 get placed / accepted. My figures may not be accurate completely but at this low an acceptance rate, the actual figures hardly matter.

Does the boy or girl ranked 10,001 and therefore not eligible for admission not possess the capacity to complete a course of study in Eng or Medical fields ?

Empirical evidence over the last 40 years shows quite the opposite as 10000's of students rejected at JEE's get admission in regional colleges, some by virtue of examinations, majority by virtue of paying a capitation fee and getting admitted to institutes such as bajaj, manipal, bangalore university etc etc. While thousands more appear for GMAT or its equivalent and travel to the US, UK, Germany or elsewhere abroad to complete an Eng degree.

While the argument exists that IIT's are the cream de la creme and therefore a student who graduates from there is inherently that much superior to another student graduating from a less elite engineering institution, this argument is overblown and overridden --not just in the case of engineering or medical studies, but also in the case of management as well as general studies.

Going to an elite institution like an Ivy League or an IIT or an IIM or an ISI does confer some advantages but ultimately the student and his /her merit matters more.

Academia or business houses do create a huge premium differential between graduates from elite vs non elite universities, but this premium is overstated and overblown in most cases as any knowledgable HR person will tell you. Hiring divisions use education and institute of learning as a signalling tool --the signal being, a person capable enough to complete an arduous course of study shows determination, dedication and intellect to succeed in any professional endeavor.

Most knowledgable HR people also know that academics is a highly flawed signalling tool --that actual professional performance is not greatly affected by academic background but by a host of other factors. Yet they keep using academics as their predominant filter simply because despite its flaws, it is still the best of all the signalling tools available.

The point being that JEE's cutoff does not determine the ability of students to complete a degree, just that it fixes their s future earning potential downwards by virtue of not getting into the elite institution.

Having said that about the elite institutions and their impact on the quality of professional performance, size of paycheck exempted, let us look at why JEE might not be the most viable option.

JEE was instituted as an entrance examination for a system of education sponsored in its vast entirety by the University Grants System or in short GOI. Essentially students selected by the JEE exams had a free ride through the Engineering /  medical professions because they had "earned" it by virtue of being the smartest of the relevant subset.

Note: Please do not counter this with the frivolous argument that JEE students have to pay a monthly or annual tuition fee --the fee that these students pay is highly subsidized and is peanuts compared to the actual cost of an Engineering or medical education.

Why did the Govt institute such a system ? Well, because scholarship system should have some definite benchmarks, that much is obvious. But more importantly, it was based on a model of educational development which posits that in a developing country where poverty, illiteracy, disease are rampant, you start with the cream, educate them in extremely specialized fields (note the fields chosen -- medicine and engineering) and have these people (post education) do what a developing society needs most -- healthcare & infrastructure. To put it in one sentence, this educational model concentrates on the development of human capital as a means to develop the country.

Which was all fine when it was started. India at that time was a nation of illiterates, there was a marginal middle class to speak of, and there was a glaring need for educational assistance to develop human capital.

Today, the ground realities are completely different. the level of literacy has risen dramatically. There is a burgeoning middle class which can afford this education even if they have to pay for it. From a developmental standpoint, the needs are noweher as acute as they were 30-40 years ago.

By still having a JEE based system, what the govt is now achieving is not selecting the cream, but finding ways to exclude the number that goes above their set limit. Quite analogous to a tailor who is expected to tailor a top hat for a client. Instead of cutting the cloth to suit the shape of the client's head, the tailor asks the client to get his head sliced so that the hat will fit.

And for what ?

Who are we subsidizing today ?

In the past we were subsidizing students who would otherwise not make it, given their financial situation, so it made sense. Today with a bigger middle class, we are subsidizing those who do not need subsidizing. they are quite capable of paying their way through.

Whats more, with the attraction of IITs and ENg / medical degrees forever on the rise, today more (much much more) students appear for the JEE than in the past. Which means that (given a fixed number of seats for admission, which even if it does increase from year to year, does so only at a miniscule proportion to the increase in the population that appears for the JEE) every successive year, the JEE gets tougher to crack.

The ones who do succeed are more likely than not to be from middle class to well to do families (ignoring the special quotas which is a different story altogether) because it is these families which will be able to devote the resources needed for the specialized training needed to pass these exams. Aside from the fact that the world over, the single largest factor that determines /predicts level of education is financial status.

So essentially, what you have is a situation where the govt determines who enters the elite institutions by virtue of a rigorous and extremely hard entrance examination designed to keep the numbers down. Thereby dooming the ones who didn't make the cut to other institutions whereby not intellectual capacity but the lack of space / govt funds is the determinant of their quality of education and the highly exaggerated pay differential they will live with when compared to one of their batchmates.

Whats worse is the govt subsidizes the education of  a majority of students who are just as capable of paying their way through if the number of spots were not severely restricted via the JEE mechanism and the econmics behind it. Essentially, this a waste as far as the public exchequer is concerned.

And that is not all. It gets progressively worse from here on.

the govt in exchange for admitting and paying for the student's education (4-8 years of it) does not take an undertaking from the student at all in terms of a period of service payback or an undertaking to stay and perform in the specialized field for which he or she was trained at the cost to the tax payer or a return of the money spent on him /her if she fails to live up to it.

Soon after the eng degree is done, the boy / girl is now free to go abroad for good, using the govt funded education as a stepping stone with no consideration for the fact that the public money was spent on him /her to ensure his / her service back to India.

Or alternatively foregoing the chosen profession and appearing for the IAS examination so that he / she can now be  a part of the babudom. Of course the dirty little secret of the IAS exams is that being a science student, this person will gain more marks in the subjects than someone from a non science stream and will therefore be overrepresented in the IAS as well --again at the expense of those who did not have even a shot at govt subsidized education. Even ignoring this tid bit (after all science graduates are demanded all over the world, not just in India) it still does not address the fact that the person can make this switch with no sort of binding obligation to repay the treasury for the prior subsidized education.

Of course if you speak with the govt, they will tell you that we stick to the JEE because its not financially viable for us to expand the university / institute and accommodate more students.

Which is a load of hogwash. The Indian population's thirst for a professional degree and a certain livelihood has resulted in the  proliferation of private engineering and medical schools who charge the full fees from the student.

The GOI remains oblivious to the model of pay as you go (with assistance reserved for those who really deserve it) which not only stops this massive wasteful subsidy on educating the cream (majority of whom leave the country anyways) but also provides much needed funds to stabilize the University system, allow for expansion and improvement and allows for more students to be admitted to such elite universities.

So if the question was why is it not viable ? -- this is why.

Not viable as a social policy, not viable for the students, not viable for the development and expansion of these universities, and certainly not viable from a public finance perspective.

This is socialism gone amok because this is socialism without either a rational thought or appraisal, but just a formulaic application based on factors which existed 30-40 years ago but don't today.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 02:06:15 AM by kban1 »
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2008, 02:07:39 AM »
kban
Mostly agree, except that the IIT's are far less subsidized today (if at all).

I disagree that the IIT system can be expanded vastly without sacrificing quality (of education, not students). If this has to be done it should be done from scratch, not by relabeling existing places.

Anyway none of your points really point to the failure of the entrance exam. Nobody is prevented from expanding the number of students selected and/or fees -- if a criticism of JEE has to be made it must be from a pedagogical PoV. What you are saying are valid criticism of the IIT's not the JEE which is just an exam.
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kban1

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2008, 02:27:30 AM »
Quote
Mostly agree, except that the IIT's are far less subsidized today (if at all).

My POV here is based on being privy to several actual conversations with people involved pretty high up in the University system and its set up.

Unless IIT's have gone the market route (which would be news to me), this is not correct. A lesser degree of subsidization does not change the fact that the majority expense is till subsidized.


Quote
I disagree that the IIT system can be expanded vastly without sacrificing quality (of education, not students). If this has to be done it should be done from scratch, not by relabeling existing places.

I dont see why not - instead of having 5, have 10 IIT's or 10 AIMS. I believe you are arguing logistics here, not the fundamentals. Besides, I did not argue for relabeling places, I said expansion --which can be done in whatever feasible way to reach the needed objective.

Quote
Anyway none of your points really point to the failure of the entrance exam. Nobody is prevented from expanding the number of students selected and/or fees -- if a criticism of JEE has to be made it must be from a pedagogical PoV. What you are saying are valid criticism of the IIT's not the JEE which is just an exam.


I never claimed to be dissecting the entrance exam.

My quote was --"all of this assuming that the JEE system is a viable one worth continuing"

And thats what I have responded to.

I vehemently oppose the very concept of the entrance exam as it stands today and the end it achieves. There is no question of dissecting the exam from a pedagological POV when the very thing it represents is symbolic of everything thats wrong with our country's higher education philosphy.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2008, 02:34:01 AM »
SSL,
I think the whole point behind the objection is that the bag of tricks at Kota are not useful outside JEE-type exams. Not that anybody objects to the idea of a bag of tricks.

So does learning one bag of tricks at Kota makes one lazy (or handicaps them) to learn other bags of tricks? Isn't professional progress about constantly expanding your bag of tricks?

If you are suggesting changing the JEE exam format / type to make the dependence on tutorials far less, I am with you. But I am skeptical that (a) only mediocre people go there and/or (b) going there has a long term effect on destroying a person's creativity / intellect / thought process.
 
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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2008, 02:41:08 AM »
I believe that an exam like the JEE should be treated like the SAT. Engineering colleges can use them as a signaling mechanism, as kban puts it. Different colleges can assign different weights to scores/tiers on it in their admission criteria.
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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 02:55:53 AM »
I believe that an exam like the JEE should be treated like the SAT. Engineering colleges can use them as a signaling mechanism, as kban puts it. Different colleges can assign different weights to scores/tiers on it in their admission criteria.

Unfortunately, that would make it worse not better. There are several practical hassles -- here people write and read letters of reference very seriously. In India (Asia actually) the letters are all *excellent*. Here people write their own essays (in large part) - in India it would be unwise to expect that. So what basis would you use to compare a student from a village school under the provincial school with a good school in a major city?

Graduate admission committees grapple with these issues every day and there is no satisfactory answer. It is very hard to compare the education received at different institutions. 
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2008, 03:08:15 AM »
Quote
Mostly agree, except that the IIT's are far less subsidized today (if at all).

My POV here is based on being privy to several actual conversations with people involved pretty high up in the University system and its set up.

Unless IIT's have gone the market route (which would be news to me), this is not correct. A lesser degree of subsidization does not change the fact that the majority expense is till subsidized.

They have gone the market route - relatively. Let me put it this way. 15 years back students paid less than 1% (or thereabouts) of tuition -- it was basically free. Today the fees have gone up to the point where I suspect students pay at least 25% of the expenses. I am not completely sure but I understand that the tuition per year is over 50k? I am sure it is still subsidized and so I am nor arguing with your basic point but I think we are moving towards a market model.

Quote
Quote
I disagree that the IIT system can be expanded vastly without sacrificing quality (of education, not students). If this has to be done it should be done from scratch, not by relabeling existing places.

I dont see why not - instead of having 5, have 10 IIT's or 10 AIMS. I believe you are arguing logistics here, not the fundamentals. Besides, I did not argue for relabeling places, I said expansion --which can be done in whatever feasible way to reach the needed objective.
There are problems. Not ones that cannot be solved but ones that are difficult to solve without widespread changes. The biggest one is salary. IIT's pay peanuts to professors. In Mumbai a fresh PhD grad would likely start at 30k or less (to my knowledge). Of course that is six times the figure fifteen years back, but still.... There are also huge infrastructure costs - that would be politically hard to justufy given that the majority of Indian colleges are under funded.

Quote
Quote
Anyway none of your points really point to the failure of the entrance exam. Nobody is prevented from expanding the number of students selected and/or fees -- if a criticism of JEE has to be made it must be from a pedagogical PoV. What you are saying are valid criticism of the IIT's not the JEE which is just an exam.


I never claimed to be dissecting the entrance exam.

My quote was --"all of this assuming that the JEE system is a viable one worth continuing"
The JEE is almost regarded as outside the IIT system -- at least that was my perception - not because it is not crucially important -- but because such a small fraction of the IIT populace is actually involved with it. But your point is taken.

Quote
And thats what I have responded to.

I vehemently oppose the very concept of the entrance exam as it stands today and the end it achieves. There is no question of dissecting the exam from a pedagological POV when the very thing it represents is symbolic of everything thats wrong with our country's higher education philosphy.

No, I think the two are separate issues, in that even with a system completely designed on your ideas, one would need a selection method and thus be forced to decide whether the JEE is useful or not for such a system. The design (and implementation) of standardized tests is not an easy problem by any means. All of Asia has a similar examination-oriented system and North America is studying the system carefully. The standardized exams here (SAT/GRE/GMAT) are fundamentally different in philosophy and design.

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kban1

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 03:37:26 AM »
Quote
They have gone the market route - relatively. Let me put it this way. 15 years back students paid less than 1% (or thereabouts) of tuition -- it was basically free. Today the fees have gone up to the point where I suspect students pay at least 25% of the expenses. I am not completely sure but I understand that the tuition per year is over 50k? I am sure it is still subsidized and so I am nor arguing with your basic point but I think we are moving towards a market model.

The key word being relatively -- a 75% subsidization rate is unacceptable. There is a pay as you go model which works very well in numerous countries. India needs to consider that.

Quote
There are problems. Not ones that cannot be solved but ones that are difficult to solve without widespread changes. The biggest one is salary. IIT's pay peanuts to professors. In Mumbai a fresh PhD grad would likely start at 30k or less (to my knowledge). Of course that is six times the figure fifteen years back, but still.... There are also huge infrastructure costs - that would be politically hard to justufy given that the majority of Indian colleges are under funded.

I am in agreement about costs that need to be borne and the time taken to get the sytem in place. But the option is to continue with a broken system or try to fix it. Every fix takes time and takes money but in the long run, the subsidized model is doomed because it does not address the problems.

As far as prof salaries, pay them the market --dont expect the elite to teach at the elite institution for peanuts. Stop profering the no money excuse and yet continue to subsidize thousands of students every year. Fix the system, fix the problem (meant for GOI, not at you).

I know its not going to happen overnight just like the IIT's were not set up overnight.

With regards to political justification, this is a bad excuse. Even today, our regular colleges are highly subsidized too. the difference is in rupee terms - medical / eng colleges are subsidized more. If its politically ok today to give the lions share of the funds to these elite universities and the priveleged few that they educate, then it should be darn ok to have everyone pay the actual cost of the education as long as you are able to.

So what you need to do is to institute an educational system which is pay as you go for the entire country with safeguards for financial aid, low cost loans and grants built in for those that need it. It will take time but will need to be done if you want the college graduation / literacy rate to improve -- and I mean functional literacy, not a  piece of paper which serves as a neck ornament.

Quote
The JEE is almost regarded as outside the IIT system -- at least that was my perception - not because it is not crucially important -- but because such a small fraction of the IIT populace is actually involved with it. But your point is taken.


yes, technically the JEE system is.

My usage of JEE system was not to refer to the system going by that name but the system which uses the JEE exam and the principles on which such a system is founded. Was meant to be all encompassing  --including specifically the IITs and AIIMS and also the other colleges which follow the govt subsidized model.


Quote
No, I think the two are separate issues, in that even with a system completely designed on your ideas, one would need a selection method and thus be forced to decide whether the JEE is useful or not for such a system. The design (and implementation) of standardized tests is not an easy problem by any means. All of Asia has a similar examination-oriented system and North America is studying the system carefully. The standardized exams here (SAT/GRE/GMAT) are fundamentally different in philosophy and design.

They are 2 different issues only from the angle with which you are viewing them. I acknowledge that aspect but that was never the thrust of my argument.

Having said that I do not believe that the JEE exam as it stands should be used as the benchmark for college admissions even after the sytem is overhauled. Simply because the material covered in this examination has little resemblance to what students learn in Std XII Math /Chemistry /Physics /Biology. When I say material, I refer to the depth, the complexity and the level of rigor that the JEE exams test you on --that is more appropriate for a 2nd year engineering student, not for a STD XII student.

If you want to make it a true test for entrance then either add some teeth to the class XI-XII syllabus so that students have a decent shot at it because they have developed the mental faculties to tackle it or make the test representative of what students actually learn in STd XI-XII.

In its present format, this is an absurd test designed to make it as difficult as possible for students to score high enough and be eligible.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2008, 03:57:19 AM »
I believe that an exam like the JEE should be treated like the SAT. Engineering colleges can use them as a signaling mechanism, as kban puts it. Different colleges can assign different weights to scores/tiers on it in their admission criteria.

Unfortunately, that would make it worse not better. There are several practical hassles -- here people write and read letters of reference very seriously. In India (Asia actually) the letters are all *excellent*. Here people write their own essays (in large part) - in India it would be unwise to expect that. So what basis would you use to compare a student from a village school under the provincial school with a good school in a major city?

Graduate admission committees grapple with these issues every day and there is no satisfactory answer. It is very hard to compare the education received at different institutions.

 :icon_scratch:

Some institutes can choose to admit candidates wholly on these marks, others could give 50% weightage to these scores and offer personal interviews and/or consider school records, yet others could neglect it all together. My suggestion separates what is being tested for, and how the metrics from that test are actually utilized in decision making. I don't think the JEE is a useless test - it at least tests perseverance  ;D
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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2008, 04:07:26 AM »
All of this assumes that the JEE system is actually a viable one worth continuing ?
No, it assumes that attempts to improve the JEE system might actually happen within the next 5 years. An attempt to fix the problem (as you rightly point to) will not happen as easily. ;D
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2008, 04:31:36 AM »
kban:
I agree with you and more importantly I think the people in charge do. There is a movement towards all of the things you ask for -- steadily in the last 10 years. They are trying to be self-sufficient in other ways as well - e.g. by leaning on professors/researchers to get grants and license technology. Fees are increasing as are salaries.

Regarding exams, I think they are between a rock and a hard place. If you do not raise the bar high - and I agree with you regarding the syllabus - then there is only one way to design tests. That is the GRE/SAT model. The questions are not difficult but there are tons of them. Is that really the skill set you want to test? Very hard to argue. BTW from what I have read the justification used in the USA by ETS is not regarding the skill set tested but that there is a very significant correlation between SAT scores and success in later life (in some ways that I do not recall). The more controversial part is that one cannot game the system which I think about 123456731 students in India and China have disproved but these people do not agree   :(

In that sense I do not think the JEE is all that bad. It is far from ideal mind you, but not one that has an obvious replacement. I am not sure why you call it absurd -- in my experience it is *extremely* hard to design a test that chooses 0.1% of the students. Remember also that virtually no professor ever has to design such a test in any other context - it would be an unmitigated disaster if 0.1% did well in any other context :) So I can only think of the JEE and the SAT approaches. Can you conceive of some other type of exam that would do the same job?
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prfsr

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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2008, 04:38:17 AM »

Some institutes can choose to admit candidates wholly on these marks, others could give 50% weightage to these scores and offer personal interviews and/or consider school records, yet others could neglect it all together. My suggestion separates what is being tested for, and how the metrics from that test are actually utilized in decision making. I don't think the JEE is a useless test - it at least tests perseverance  ;D

Well the JEE went through several changes like a screening exam and so on. The problem is eliminating such a large number of people and conducting interviews of at least 6000-7000 students (assuming you interview at least 2 candidates for each position). And at the end of the day it is far from clear that interviews/high school scores/essays/letters of reference will do even nearly as well as JEE. There are obvious resource constraints (time and number of people grading the exams).

I think most North American schools are actually less systematic than IIT in selecting students. Firstly the decisions are taken by the school of admissions which often has little coordination with the academic depts (other than agreement on broad policies) and they often use weird weighting schemes to compare students from different schools/countries. Graduate admissions are better but again a crapshoot in many cases. The only objective parts are really the standardized test scores. 
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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2008, 04:40:11 AM »
This seems to be a recent phenomenon that has come up. While the article states that IIT officials have no official position on this, I have recently met a few IIT professors (obviously their position is unofficial)  who concur with WN's  position on the Kota candidates, incidentally using the very same phrase 'unstructured problems' and 'thinking out of the box' to summarize why Kota was bad for the future, and needs to be stopped,  by changing the structure of the entrance exams. While there is definitely always scope of improvement in this direction, I believe this is easier said than done.

I don't understand some of these IIT professors. The entrance exam can be structured in any way they see fit, as they seem to acknowledge. We have been hearing about the Kota tutors for a while now. So why the lethargy?
How long has Kota been around?  I just don't know. I first heard about this in the above conversation last winter.

I can't really speak for them, as I don't have regular contact with them.
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When I was familiar with the system many moons ago, the questions in the entrance exam (except perhaps Chemistry) largely could not be answered by rote. At least as far as the syllabus was concerned, there was no possibility of "running out of questions". Access to previous year IIT question papers was easy and was public information. Knowing the pattern helped understand what level of complexity was permissible, given the syllabus.

I fail to see how it is impossible to set a Physics or Math paper given the same syllabus material, that encapsulates so-called thinking outside the box. (Aside: is there any evidence that an overwhelming majority of IIT profs are capable of thinking outside the box?)
It partly depends on what you want when you say thinking outside the box? Creativity or ability to use concepts to solve an objective problem? Having a problem which asks to apply concepts is fine ... but if students have looked into a large bag of problems, they are well prepared for that. Unless you can put a finger on what the Kota candidates lack in more concrete terms, this will be hard to do. Note, it is easy (and the right thing to do) to give these people interpretation/slightly open ended problems in the setting WN describes but is impossible to do for a standardized test ... there needs to be one right answer, and all paths to the right answer have to be deemed equal.
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There is no point in IIT crying that Kota has gamed the system. That is a good sign of progress. Who prevented them from altering the syllabus or the topics of the papers proactively rather than when it was too late? Recently, the director of IIT-M claimed that he preferred using the 12th standard exam to largely influence admission which was quite baffling to me. If there ever was a case of 'trivially' gaming the system through pure rote, the CBSE it is. What prevents Kota from offering super intense CBSE residence schools to game that too (arguably, it would be much easier since more time spent on rote activities has more overall efficiency).
I would be pretty scornful if they wanted to shut down kota by decree ... but I don't find anything wrong with the realization that they are not happy, and can  change their exam system for better screening. You seem to be arguing that they took too long to do it ... I would not know.   I think that they would find it rather difficult.
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A single exam can never be the theoretically best filter, and any exam based on a syllabus can be gamed. That is no reason to blame Kota.
exactly

I think this is where I would also say what kban has been pointing out. What is the objective of the JEE? Is it to find generally intelligent people who are adept at doing their stuff, to make sure they can avail of the educational opportunities at the Institute they are joining? In that case, I think almost all the people who join are capable, and many outside too. The problem is that people want this to filter in the best, perhaps the 'bestest' N people, a concept that is being propagated all the way to hiring companies. And such a venture based on a single exam just can't work.
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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2008, 03:09:08 PM »

It partly depends on what you want when you say thinking outside the box? Creativity or ability to use concepts to solve an objective problem? Having a problem which asks to apply concepts is fine ... but if students have looked into a large bag of problems, they are well prepared for that. Unless you can put a finger on what the Kota candidates lack in more concrete terms, this will be hard to do. Note, it is easy (and the right thing to do) to give these people interpretation/slightly open ended problems in the setting WN describes but is impossible to do for a standardized test ... there needs to be one right answer, and all paths to the right answer have to be deemed equal.

Good point. As an aside, IMO the KOTA people's biggest problem is that they always look for THE answer.. THE RIGHT answer...when there may be none. It becomes very difficult for them to understand that we are evaluating them on their "thinking approach" .. is it structured, can they handle ambiguity etc

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I think this is where I would also say what kban has been pointing out. What is the objective of the JEE? Is it to find generally intelligent people who are adept at doing their stuff, to make sure they can avail of the educational opportunities at the Institute they are joining? In that case, I think almost all the people who join are capable, and many outside too. The problem is that people want this to filter in the best, perhaps the 'bestest' N people, a concept that is being propagated all the way to hiring companies. And such a venture based on a single exam just can't work.
Exactly (the bolded part)..and agree with your post completely.

IMO, the JEE (the exam) does a good job of (efficiently and to the extent possible, fairly) picking the 0.1% of people from a 500-600K applicants. The people picked I think meet your objective of those "who are adept at doing their stuff, to make sure they can avail of the educational opportunities at the Institute". [I do not think there is another exam (or a selection process) in the entire world that does this good a job given the scale involved. Even in this thread, I have not heard of a better implementable alternative.]

Does this mean that the people NOT selected are not good and cannot be successful.. absolutely NOT. It is another matter that our "hyper-competitive, mostly middle-class" society associates (sometimes tragically) success in life with success in (such) exams. With recent growth, as other opportunities are opening up, fortunately this aspect of measuring success is diminishing.
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Re: KOTA candidates..
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2008, 05:29:56 AM »

It partly depends on what you want when you say thinking outside the box? Creativity or ability to use concepts to solve an objective problem? Having a problem which asks to apply concepts is fine ... but if students have looked into a large bag of problems, they are well prepared for that. Unless you can put a finger on what the Kota candidates lack in more concrete terms, this will be hard to do. Note, it is easy (and the right thing to do) to give these people interpretation/slightly open ended problems in the setting WN describes but is impossible to do for a standardized test ... there needs to be one right answer, and all paths to the right answer have to be deemed equal.

Good point. As an aside, IMO the KOTA people's biggest problem is that they always look for THE answer.. THE RIGHT answer...when there may be none. It becomes very difficult for them to understand that we are evaluating them on their "thinking approach" .. is it structured, can they handle ambiguity etc

Quote
I think this is where I would also say what kban has been pointing out. What is the objective of the JEE? Is it to find generally intelligent people who are adept at doing their stuff, to make sure they can avail of the educational opportunities at the Institute they are joining? In that case, I think almost all the people who join are capable, and many outside too. The problem is that people want this to filter in the best, perhaps the 'bestest' N people, a concept that is being propagated all the way to hiring companies. And such a venture based on a single exam just can't work.
Exactly (the bolded part)..and agree with your post completely.

IMO, the JEE (the exam) does a good job of (efficiently and to the extent possible, fairly) picking the 0.1% of people from a 500-600K applicants. The people picked I think meet your objective of those "who are adept at doing their stuff, to make sure they can avail of the educational opportunities at the Institute". [I do not think there is another exam (or a selection process) in the entire world that does this good a job given the scale involved. Even in this thread, I have not heard of a better implementable alternative.]

Does this mean that the people NOT selected are not good and cannot be successful.. absolutely NOT. It is another matter that our "hyper-competitive, mostly middle-class" society associates (sometimes tragically) success in life with success in (such) exams. With recent growth, as other opportunities are opening up, fortunately this aspect of measuring success is diminishing.
Absolutely true. In fact I would think that due to the limited number of seats, it so happens that a lot of people who do not get selected are at least as good as a lot of people who get selected. And the only way to address that is by having more educational institutions as suggested here by kban. I don't know about the logistics. I don't know for sure (Dont know the exact alternatives)  that the US style college fees is really a good system, but I did feel that Indians are not ready for large fees yet ... the thought of taking a large loan is still too alien.
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