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Cover Point

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Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« on: March 21, 2006, 03:10:45 PM »
With all the attacks on the 5 batsmen or 6 theory, do we now see why we absolutely needed 5 bowlers.

In this test Pathan has been AWOL. If we had gone with 4 bowlers Sreesanth would have missed out and the way the poms were batting they would have scored 600 without Santh taking those 4 wickets!

We really need to start realizing that Pathan may never be the first line seamer we have been looking for. With his lower pace he can probably be a razzaq for us. Not saying that it is bad, means on his day he has the ability to run through the lineup but cant be relied on for consistency.

Thus on any pitch we need to play two genuine seamers and Santh and Patel seem to fit the bill.

The question people need to ask now if you consider 6 bats is that you really are picking a #6 bat over Pathan.  Would that #6's batting be sufficiently better than Pathan to make up for the extra bowling option?

I think not and I think thus going with this 4 bowlers + pathan theory is sound (unless we know it is a rank turner of Mumbai 2004 kind then drop both Munaf and Santh and pick 3 spinners + Pathan)
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CLR James

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2006, 03:15:34 PM »

Your arguments have merit Cover Point. They would hold if even half of our batting line up was in form. Unfortunately, with VS, SRT, going through the worst phase of their careers, and WJ and YS too not consistent, matters look grave, especially for this series saving innings.
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RicePlateReddy

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 03:49:06 PM »
I am not sure the 5 bowler theory was the soundest for the Mumbai test. Of course, I can speak with the convenience of hindsight. But I did wince when I saw the team line up the day of the match. What's worse is that Dravid put England in, ensuring that if they racked up a big score (which they did), the pressure would be on twice: first just catching up, and then batting 4th at Mumbai.

I wish the strategy were a little more thought through - I think that unless there is something obviously amazing in the pitch on day 1, when you play with 5 bowlers, you bat first to avoid the 4th innings squeeze, especially on degenerative pitches.

Also what does giving away 400 to a gutted team with 5 bowlers show?

Both SRT and VS were not in prime form before this test. Jaffer needs more time. Though Dravid and Yuvraj are arguably in the form of their life. While Pathan has pleasantly surprised and one hopes Dhoni translates his ODI magic to the test arena and becomes a solid bat, they are in the allrounder slot at the moment, at best. Overall, this means the 5 bowler theory is dangerous because you don't even have 5 solid and normally functioning batsmen.

The pity is we might have staged a great escape if we fielded like any international side ought to have. The performance through this test has been woeful. Even with the remote chance of a salvage tomorrow, we have allowed a severely depleted England side to embarass us on home turf and expose our vulnerabilities for all to see.
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tombaan

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 03:52:55 PM »
we go with 4 bowlers and lame duck all rounder in pathan it is more dangerous...if we go with santh, patel, kumble and HS with laxman as the 6 bat it would have been different....pathan the bowler is in the same mould like sandhu, binny and madanlal pedigree
pathan could be a pick only when we go 5 bowlers...but we need to decide is he a better bat than laxman or contribute more than laxman...in this match sadly he has been lacklustre to say the least
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j

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2006, 03:53:59 PM »
I see this side has 4 bowler + 1 all rounder in pathan. We should not see now Pathan as a bowler and call it 5 bowler team. The way he has developed in batting and gone down in bowling ( needs helping conditions in tests but still a force to reckon in ODI's, has always given early breakthroughs in ODI's), he has become a good All Rounder for us.

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Blwe_torch

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2006, 04:03:54 PM »
In GC's time IP  has become half a bowler he was last year and one and half times a batsman he was during the same time!
Some improvement!
BTW...CP...this 5 bowler theory is a lousy idea in India, particularly Mumbai.
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cricinfo

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2006, 04:07:24 PM »
BLWE it is the greates idea GC has come up with...he has figured out at last that the kind of batting strength we have ...chances are more that we will get more runs done by SSR, AK , IP and Dhoni....i congratulate him  ;D
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Laxman The Laxative Of Indian Cricket

tombaan

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2006, 04:07:53 PM »
yep i expected them to drop pathan and pick laxman...but they dont have enough data to do that....but i can see that happening in the future
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2006, 04:11:25 PM »
data?!!... :D :D :D :D :D
data ka kya karenge GC saab?
cricket bat/ball se khela jata hai...naa ki computer se! :D
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tombaan

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2006, 04:12:14 PM »
 :o
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Cover Point

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2006, 04:24:17 PM »
A perfectly logical thread has gone down to attacking GC.

BTW...CP...this 5 bowler theory is a lousy idea in India, particularly Mumbai.

By the way is it time we start a Blwe God speak? A single line statement no supporting arguments? Where is Kban when you need him?

Anycase the point was that Pathan is unlikely to be dropped the way things have worked. And in anycase once we identify that he is not among our top 2 seamers BUT does provide a great third seam option (Good with the brand new ball when swing is available).

Pathan has been doing great with the bat (average better than Lakhan and Ganguly over the last year or so excluding minnows).

Now you can expect given a long enough run the #6 specialist bat (forget the names for now) to score better than Pathan the allrounder. Thats fair. Lets assume for the sake of argument that our #6 averages 35 vs Pathan settles down to a 28-30 average. Thats fair too.

So a specialist bat would give us an additonal 5-7 runs per inning. But playing Pathan in that position gives us an extra bowling option that on a given day can

1) Run through the opposition if the coditions are good
2) Provide rest for the front liners without using part timers like Sehwag, YS who do nothing other than relax the batsmen.

Specially with a good hitting bat in Dhoni we can afford to give up those 5-7 runs. The batsmen in poor form theory doesnt work for me since I believe if someone is not in form they should be rested. be it Sachin, Sehwag or SG.
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2006, 04:29:28 PM »
CP sometimes you complain 'too long post' and sometimes you say...why a one-liner?!! :)
btw...yeh minnow-shinnow kya hai?
is this half strength english team not a minnow?
becoz of this divine 5-bowler policy, India had to do without a legitimate close- in specialist fielder.
you can see India's plight anyway......still do you think that this 5 bowler theory has merit here?
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ramshorns

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2006, 04:29:42 PM »
I cannot wait to see Pathan, Kumble, Sreesanth bat abroad.   May be they can outclass Laxman.  WOW what a waste???? Why did they have even Laxman play for India all these years.  Damn it.
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2006, 04:31:24 PM »
btw... CP...blwe-godspeak kyon?...start something fresh!
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tombaan

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2006, 04:33:20 PM »
i say start one entitled blwe ke naadaniyan
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2006, 04:37:47 PM »
kam se kam aap to naa karo~! ::)
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Cover Point

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2006, 04:41:03 PM »
btw... CP...blwe-godspeak kyon?...start something fresh!

I am not starting anything. I was just commenting on the fact that we have a lot of people "pick" on Gaurav for writing one liners and then some of them turn around and do the same themselves.

And for the record. I have absolutely no issues with Kban's long posts. I actually enjoy them (I always enjoy well written pieces and he argues his points very very well). I dont always agree with all the points he makes (and lately I have actually seen some frustration creep into his writing) but it takes nothing away from the fact that he does write well and his writing is an enjoyable read..best on this DG.

Ramshorns, I agree let us see them bat abroad (and assuming Pak does not count). But on current data my argument holds. The numbers havent been that different. If we find a #6 that can average over 40 then maybe things would be different but assuming that it is Pathan that would get dropped for a 6th batsman the argument is much closer.

Unfortunately even in this new (and ruthless by some allegations) team the one to get dropped my be Santh and that would hamper the bowling immensely. Then we would be complaining why we cant take 20 wickets!
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yorker

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2006, 05:18:58 PM »
CP - Make it 30 wickets with our fielding
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Cover Point

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2006, 05:52:46 PM »
CP - Make it 30 wickets with our fielding

Are u endorsing an 8 bowler theory?  :D  :o
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yorker

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2006, 06:57:57 PM »
If all of them would catch like AK and HS today then why not.
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cardus

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2006, 07:00:44 PM »
If all of them would catch like AK and HS today then why not.

And bat like them too!

 ;D ;D ;D
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bala

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2006, 07:07:05 PM »
btw... CP...blwe-godspeak kyon?...start something fresh!


Blwe...sorry for what I am about to say - just couldn't resist the word play.
Nothing to do with the content of the thread but

Blwe - godspeak = blwe_*
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Cover Point

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2006, 07:12:27 PM »

Blwe - godspeak = blwe_*


incredibly funny!  ;D ;D ;D
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2006, 05:52:24 AM »
yesterday poor yuvraj had to look like a fool...thanks to your 5 -bowler theory........India was short of one specialist fielder ( Laxman) over there.
Did you realize that? :)
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dextrous

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2006, 06:20:11 AM »
hate to brag...but once again...told you so...5 bowlers in India...luxury and madness.
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2006, 06:27:21 AM »
btw... CP...blwe-godspeak kyon?...start something fresh!


Blwe...sorry for what I am about to say - just couldn't resist the word play.
Nothing to do with the content of the thread but

Blwe - godspeak = blwe_*


bala...plz mis-spell it and make it 'blwe's_hit'!
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kban1

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2006, 07:27:47 AM »
Half full, or half empty?

India remain adamant on going in a batsman short, but there are a few holes in the theory

Ehtesham Hasan

India’s decision to go in with five specialist bowlers at the cost of an additional batsman cost India dear as they lost the third test to England by a whopping 212 runs yesterday.

This is not for the first time that the move has not got the desired results. If we put a little strain on our memories, the Indian think-tank had gone in with a similar combination in the second test against Pakistan at Faisalabad earlier this year.

Sourav Ganguly was left out and Zaheer Khan brought in as the fifth bowler. But had it not been for Mahendra Singh Dhoni’s brilliant counter-attacking century and Irfan Pathan’s strong-willed approach (the score was 281 for five when the duo got going), India would have been in more than a spot of bother chasing Pakistan’s first innings total of 588.

Or more recently at Mohali when a greenhorn like Piyush Chawla was chosen ahead of a proven performer like VVS Laxman to give the Indian bowling attack the ‘much-needed’ edge, even though Anil Kumble and Harbhajan Singh have more than 700 test wickets amongst them.

The match was eventually won. but wait a minute... The middle-order that included Sachin Tendulkar, Yuvraj Singh and Dhoni accounted for just 35 runs and if not for the last five batsman — who totalled 132 runs — the scenario would have been completely different.

England had managed 300 in their first dig and it was only after the tail wagged that India reached 338 and from thereon Munaf Patel and Anil Kumble took over, finishing with four wickets each.

Given the overtly benign nature of the Faisalabad track, in retrospect, it may not have been a bad ploy after all to go in with an additional bowler. The same goes for the Mohali pitch which had very little in it for the bowlers.

But on a tricky Wankhede track, going in with five bowlers was as befuddling a decision as the one to put England in.

More so if one considers the fly-by-night way in which Virender Sehwag bats, or the wretched form in which Sachin Tendulkar finds himself in these days. Wasim Jaffer and Yuvraj Singh are still cutting their teeth in test cricket.

As expected, there were questions raised at the post-match conference about the tactic which bordered on bravado, and put Rahul Dravid under a lot of pressure to deliver.

Dravid defended it big time when he stressed that India needs to go in with that option if it has to win test matches overseas.

“We feel that going ahead and looking at some of our results in away series, five bowlers is quite important to our combination. You can argue that if we had only four bowlers, we might have given more runs in the first innings, or we wouldn’t have been able to bowl as well as we did in the second.

“We do weigh the pros and cons of six batsmen, but if we want to win a series abroad, and if we want to be competitive as a team as England have shown in the Ashes and even here, then we do need five bowlers.”

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/nmirror/mmpaper.asp?sectid=6&articleid=322200623533265322200623527703
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Zacked

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2006, 09:29:02 AM »
Playing five bowlers weakens the batting

This Indian batting line-up is not what it was two years ago in Australia, says Geoffrey Boycott

Rahul Dravid called it "a temporary lapse of reason" at the post-match presentation, but I would look deeper for the reasons behind India's batting collapse at the Wankhede. To me, this batting line-up is not what it was two years ago in Australia, though the names may be the same. Virender Sehwag, bad back or no bad back, has been in poor form and lacking in confidence for quite a while now, and Sachin Tendulkar is in the worst form of his career.

Indeed, Sachin has had to contend with too many injuries and illnesses in the recent past, and apart from taking a toll on his body, they have kept him out of cricket too often. Now that he's going to sit out for a further two months, I don't think he can ever come back to regain what he once had.

Lack of quality
Greg Chappell's theory of using five bowlers looks good on paper because the team has more bowling options. But when India plays five bowlers, it looks to me as though Chappell is trying to make up for a lack of quality with quantity. Playing five bowlers weakens the batting, so you need better batting from the top five batsmen, and at the moment they are not in good form, which makes a good case for the inclusion of V.V.S. Laxman.

When it comes to seaming pitches as we saw at the Wankhede, the middle-lower order batsmen are not dependable.

The Indian lower and middle order comprises players like Yuvraj Singh, who are stroke-makers and crowd pleasers, who can hit lots of fours and sixes on good batting pitches, and whose looks and star status make them the darlings of the crowds, but they depend more on hand-eye coordination than on technique.

Nothing illustrates my point better than the appalling way in which the Indian lower order threw the match away once Dravid and Sachin got out.

Agreed, they would probably not have saved the match, but one would have expected them to at least try, instead of slogging it away playing flashy strokes that spoke of indiscipline and an inability to knuckle down in the face of pressure.

What made it worse was the decision to send in Anil Kumble and Pathan on Tuesday. In my view, bowlers take wickets and batsmen make runs. That's the basic rule of cricket. It is absurd to expect two lower-order players to negotiate the new ball, and that brings me to Dravid's mental block against opening, which is mystifying. He is technically the best equipped to open, and often has to walk out so early as to virtually do so, but he just will not promote himself to number one.

India has experimented with numerous opening partnerships in the last couple of years, and openers have come and gone. Good openers are so precious because they set a platform for the rest of the team, as Sunny Gavaskar used to do, so when Sehwag was injured, Dravid ought to have been the automatic choice to replace him, particularly when the jury's still out on Wasim Jaffer, who scored a century on the flat Nagpur track, but I'm not convinced about his abilities in the face of a moving ball.

Toss decision
The other thing that Dravid has to answer for, in my opinion, is his decision to bowl after winning the toss. No one has asked him why, though I expected Dean Jones to do so either at the toss or at the prize distribution. Everyone is allowing him to avoid answering what all of India is asking, because the toss is where it all went wrong. England made the most of a miraculous gift, and Andrew Strauss's century was like gold dust.

In the end, nothing illustrated the frustration and desperation of the Mumbai crowd more than the chants of `We want Sourav'. Like him or leave him, Sourav Ganguly was the best captain India had, and yet, for political or personal reasons, he will probably never find a place in this Indian team again.

Truths
A lot of Indian players will not like what I've said, but these are home truths that need to be told. If a half-strength English side can force them to capitulate so meekly, I can't imagine what things will be like when they come visiting England in 2007!

http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/23/stories/2006032304402100.htm
« Last Edit: March 23, 2006, 09:47:14 AM by kban1 »
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Blwe_torch

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2006, 09:58:33 AM »
Thanks..kban and zacked!
Boycott's article is worth it's length and width in Gold!
Atleast you haven't let yourselves to be taken for a ride by some half-cooked no-brainers!
Applauds for you! :)
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arjun

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Re: Playing 5 bowlers -- Was this a good idea ?
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2006, 10:17:37 AM »
Considered purely as a theory- five bowlers seem like a good idea. But placed in the actual context- the Mumbai test- where all we had to do was to keep the match drawn to win the series- it was a foolhardy step and a massive tactical blunder. One more batsman was a must in Mumbai for shutting out the opposition. More so, since except for Dravid, all other batsmen are passing through iffy form for quite sometime now. We basically handed over the test to Flintoff & Co on a platter.
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