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[pipsqueak]

comment #132 at this "foolmountain" blog is interesting! there seems to have been a reference to teeth in the chinese article that's been wiped off....now, if it was all about "poise" and "stage presence", why would teeth be mentioned at all? why is this not mentioned in the "transcript" that this blog has posted? i wonder if we have indeed found the smoking gun?


Zhengyou Says:

August 15th, 2008 at 3:44 am
JXie：

Did you do your searches in English only or Chinese, too? I searched for 杨沛宜 牙齿 on Baidu and got this interesting scrap from the cache on Wangyi article… but it’s been deleted!

《歌唱祖国》非林妙可所唱 网友热捧原唱杨沛宜 网易 2008-8-12 19:21
杨沛宜的生活照 8月12日讯(文/Juna) …成为各大媒体报道的对象,昨天开幕式的音乐总监陈其钢接受采访时说到《歌唱祖国》的演唱者并非林妙可,而是7岁的小女孩杨沛宜,陈其钢透露,由于杨沛宜正在发牙齿,…

Note the date, the 12th, and also the (cut off) reference stating that:

“Becoming a big media story, yesterday’s Opening Ceremony Head Musical Director Chen Qigang was interviewed and revealed that “Ode to the Motherland” wasn’t sung by Lin Miaoke, but rather by 7 year-old little girl Yang Peiyi. Chen Qigang revealed that because Yang Peiyi’s teeth are coming in…”

Wouldn’t it be fun to read the whole article? It would be interesting to do a side-by-side comparison search across languages, but since the articles are being deleted from sinospace, that wouldn’t reveal much, would it? I guess in the absence of a Chinese-language evidence trail, you must be right. Right?

[Cernunnos]

How do you know that the youtube video out there has not been doctored? You think the Chinese who implemented a prompt and total blackout of the incident wouldn't take pains to ensure that videos are wiped off youtube? If they do have a video there, I would view it with great suspicion, based on their established talent at smoke and mirrors.

Because the person who posted the youtube link is critical of the Chinese Politburo and the lip synching.
He's asking them to apologize to the world on behalf of China! (in the comments section).
Not every Chinese is a dyed-in-the-wool commie.
Even in the biased Chinese blog, they were critical of the lip synching.

On the other hand, what is the evidence that he talked about Peiyi's
so called ugliness? If Chen really said she had a chubby face and
ugly teeth, why is it so hard to bring out the exact transcript or quote?
There is not one full transcript used by the Times/Telegraph out in
the public. And everything they put in actual quotes seem to match
with the supposedly doctored transcripts!

Why did every newspaper put "flawless image and feelings" under
quotes and not crooked teeth? This is not a simple matter of semantics.
This is a deliberate ploy to put words in the mouth of the organisers
and it needs to be looked into seriously. Finally you come up with
an SCMP quote 5 days after - maybe 5 days is what it takes to say
a lie enough to make it into the truth! The credibility of SCMP is severely
dented because they themselves didn't put ugly teeth under quotes
in their report from the previous day!

Again, I repeat - tell me why an allegedly PRO-CHINA newspaper fabricates stories damaging China, sitting inside China? I really haven't had the time to search the SCMP site to find all the related articles and post them here in chronological order.The news was FIRST reported every where on Aug 13 (Aug 12 in the US) and this is an article from Aug 14. 5 days? how? You are free to see ulterior motives in their quotes but this isn't a "western rag". What drives them to slander Chen/BJ? If you look up up the recent history of SCMP, you will find that they were recently accused of firing some of their china critics!

In Vivian Wu's solo report, the crooked teeth weren't under quotes. In the joint Vivian Wu and Peter Simpson
report, suddenly they put those words under quotes (something which even the Times or Daily Telegraph didn't do!)
Without googling Peter Simpson (and Tom Miller), these two seem to be British expats based in HK.
And just like lot of the desi media picks up the Lalor drivel as gospel, so this might be a similar case.
I'm giving a possible explanation for their bias, although the paper is situated within China.

And, the news came out on Aug 12 (Aug 11 in the US) in English, and earlier in the Chinese press.
 
I will once again ask you why in this report,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2545387/Beijing-Olympics-Faking-scandal-over-girl-who-sang-in-opening-ceremony.html

Whereas they have extensively quoted Chen, there is not one quote regarding teeth.
Honestly ask yourself is it possible that the Telegraph would not quote Chen if indeed he said
Peiyi's teeth were crooked?

Finally, for the hundredth time, it is not enough to be a pretty face.
The organisers were also looking for expressions, feelings! If I were
in charge, I would be more worried about which girl would maintain
their self confidence and poise in the face of so much pressure, rather
than obsess about looks! Wth Peiyi only 7 years old and doing this
for the first time, it is understandable they would go for the 9 year
old who has the experience of doing this previously.
Those who want to reduce this debate to solely about looks, sadly
reveal their own one-track mind, IMHO.

I see. I suppose the following requirements were also set by the Chinese authorities for Olympic hostesses in pursuit of something beyond "pretty face(and body)'? Yeah, they do mention that they will look for intelligence - so do the beauty contest organizers when they ask questions to the finalists! To me, it is crystal clear that the real singer did not meet the "flawlessness" standard and was dumped. She was the winner of the national singing competition and isn't new to performing.

It is not about intelligence.. It is about holding your nerve when a five billion people are watching you for 3 minutes!
It is not necessary that a winner of singing competition will have that ability.

The parallel with the hostesses is non-existent.

[Cernunnos]

comment #132 at this "foolmountain" blog is interesting! there seems to have been a reference to teeth in the chinese article which was all wiped off....now, if it was all about "poise" and "stage presence", why would teeth be mentioned at all? why is this not mentioned in the "transcript" that this blog has posted? i wonder if we have indeed found the smoking gun?


Zhengyou Says:

August 15th, 2008 at 3:44 am
JXie?

Did you do your searches in English only or Chinese, too? I searched for ?? on Baidu and got this interesting scrap from the cache on Wangyi article… but it’s been deleted!

?? 2008-8-12 19:21
? 8?12??(?/Juna) …??,??,??7??,??,?,…

Note the date, the 12th, and also the (cut off) reference stating that:

“Becoming a big media story, yesterday’s Opening Ceremony Head Musical Director Chen Qigang was interviewed and revealed that “Ode to the Motherland” wasn’t sung by Lin Miaoke, but rather by 7 year-old little girl Yang Peiyi. Chen Qigang revealed that because Yang Peiyi’s teeth are coming in…”

Wouldn’t it be fun to read the whole article? It would be interesting to do a side-by-side comparison search across languages, but since the articles are being deleted from sinospace, that wouldn’t reveal much, would it? I guess in the absence of a Chinese-language evidence trail, you must be right. Right?

I'm glad you pointed this out! So you can see that there are potential whistleblowers who are reading the blog, which
lends a lot of credibilty to it.

Coming back to your 'smoking gun', it is answered in #134. The poster gives a link to the complete article.

[pipsqueak]

Because the person who posted the youtube link is critical of the Chinese Politburo and the lip synching.
He's asking them to apologize to the world on behalf of China! (in the comments section).
Not every Chinese is a dyed-in-the-wool commie.
Even in the biased Chinese blog, they were critical of the lip synching.

i am not saying that the blog owner doctored it - who posted this video on youtube? what's the source?

It is not about intelligence.. It is about holding your nerve when a five billion people are watching you for 3 minutes!
It is not necessary that a winner of singing competition will have that ability.

The parallel with the hostesses is non-existent.

this is just wishful thinking on your part. i have seen no quotes stating this any where either! how can you be so sure?

based on the precise requirements prescribed for hostesses, why should i not assume that in their quest for "flawlessness", they sought the same of the child singer as well? in fact, i am convinced of it.

[pipsqueak]

I'm glad you pointed this out! So you can see that there are potential whistleblowers who are reading the blog, which
lends a lot of credibilty to it.

Coming back to your 'smoking gun', it is answered in #134. The poster gives a link to the complete article.

what is answered? #134 CONFIRMS that chen did talk about the "teeth" and adds that no where was the child called ugly. we now have evidence from the very blog that you are quoting that an article in sinospace referred to her teeth - in fact, says "Chen revealed that because Yang Peiyi's teeth are coming in...."

wonder how that sentence completed! no one has posted the translation of the entire article yet. let me see if i can get it translated on monday.

this is just one article - there must have been many others that have been erased.

do you agree that we have at least one case where "teeth" was mentioned by the chinese media before the western rags picked on it?

also, this proves that "teeth coming in" certainly had a role to play in her ouster!

[prfsr]

Props to Ceru and Pip for sticking to their points. This is part of the charm of the DG
Now if we could get Chen to mention Ganguly, CP would have been giddy with excitement,
and the DG would be alive.

[LosingNow]

pips and cern ..

keep going, this is a lot of fun

[achutank]

point is it should not have been done, olymics is about the human spirit

[Cover Point]

Props to Ceru and Pip for sticking to their points. This is part of the charm of the DG
Now if we could get Chen to mention Ganguly, CP would have been giddy with excitement,
and the DG would be alive.

hum akele kya kar sakte hain. You have to give credit to Gangulians too. Ganguly ka naam lete hi woh bandar se bhi ooncha uchalne lagte hain

[achutank]

Props to Ceru and Pip for sticking to their points. This is part of the charm of the DG
Now if we could get Chen to mention Ganguly, CP would have been giddy with excitement,
and the DG would be alive.

hum akele kya kar sakte hain. You have to give credit to Gangulians too. Ganguly ka naam lete hi woh bandar se bhi ooncha uchalne lagte hain

 

[Cernunnos]

Because the person who posted the youtube link is critical of the Chinese Politburo and the lip synching.
He's asking them to apologize to the world on behalf of China! (in the comments section).
Not every Chinese is a dyed-in-the-wool commie.
Even in the biased Chinese blog, they were critical of the lip synching.

i am not saying that the blog owner doctored it - who posted this video on youtube? what's the source?

I'm talking about the person 'humanchina' who posted the youtube video.
The statements I posted are from his own views in the comment section on youtube.
Btw, almost everyone who added their comment is critical of the switch.

It is not about intelligence.. It is about holding your nerve when a five billion people are watching you for 3 minutes!
It is not necessary that a winner of singing competition will have that ability.

The parallel with the hostesses is non-existent.

this is just wishful thinking on your part. i have seen no quotes stating this any where either! how can you be so sure?

".. flawless in image, internal feelings and expressions"

based on the precise requirements prescribed for hostesses, why should i not assume that in their quest for "flawlessness", they sought the same of the child singer as well? in fact, i am convinced of it.

The hostesses, like the bimbos paraded in Formula One or Packer cricket, do not have any role or focus
apart from being eye candy. That's not the same with the singer on whom the whole world's eyes
would be glued for a few minutes. One cannot afford that person to completely lose it under the pressure
and appear rigid in the face and trembling, especially when it's a child. Therefore, it's not a matter
of just putting an angelic face on stage. If it was for someone on the background, then I'd possibly agree with you.

[Cernunnos]

I'm glad you pointed this out! So you can see that there are potential whistleblowers who are reading the blog, which
lends a lot of credibilty to it.

Coming back to your 'smoking gun', it is answered in #134. The poster gives a link to the complete article.

what is answered? #134 CONFIRMS that chen did talk about the "teeth" and adds that no where was the child called ugly. we now have evidence from the very blog that you are quoting that an article in sinospace referred to her teeth - in fact, says "Chen revealed that because Yang Peiyi's teeth are coming in...."

wonder how that sentence completed! no one has posted the translation of the entire article yet. let me see if i can get it translated on monday.

this is just one article - there must have been many others that have been erased.

do you agree that we have at least one case where "teeth" was mentioned by the chinese media before the western rags picked on it?

also, this proves that "teeth coming in" certainly had a role to play in her ouster!

If Chen clearly said this, why wasn't he quoted by the Daily Telegraph (and others) saying that, instead of the more vague "flawless in image"? Again, no answers on that front.

The fact that commentor #134 went on to post the entire article, shows that there was nothing to hide.

My first reading of it is that the article says that Yang Peiyi became a hot discussion topic as it was reported in
big media that the Chen replaced Peiyi because her teeth were coming out ... so once again they are quoting other
media sources. But feel free to get it translated yourself. And what about the "chubby face" part? Where did that come
from?

And isn't it ironic that the "random blog" which you sought to put down is now your only lifeline in this debate?
Do you agree that the "random blog" is a better source of the facts than you preciously thought?

[prfsr]

Ceru
You are using the absence of direct quotes as your main argument? Do you concede the teeth point or do you not? Even that baidu cache could be a "sanitized" article - you do realize that? Does baidu tell you if it was the original or a refreshed version? Not to my knowledge.
 
This case became tainted once the govt (or party or whoever) started messing with the evidence. Is it really worth trying to prove anything once they start removing evidence? Do you really feel that blogs are more reliable than news agencies? Would you believe a pro-republican blog on Iraq, even if they say "we should not have started the war"?   

So let's pause and answer this more important question:
WHY DID THE GOVT REMOVE THE INTERVIEW? Why did they just not use your points?

[Cernunnos]

Ceru
You are using the absence of direct quotes as your main argument? Do you concede the teeth point or do you not? Even that baidu cache could be a "sanitized" article - you do realize that? Does baidu tell you if it was the original or a refreshed version? Not to my knowledge.
 
This case became tainted once the govt (or party or whoever) started messing with the evidence. Is it really worth trying to prove anything once they start removing evidence? Do you really feel that blogs are more reliable than news agencies? Would you believe a pro-republican blog on Iraq, even if they say "we should not have started the war"?   

So let's pause and answer this more important question:
WHY DID THE GOVT REMOVE THE INTERVIEW? Why did they just not use your points?

Before we pause, I have a more important question - why didn't the Times, Telegraph, SMH, etc. QUOTE CHEN saying Peiyi was "chubby" and "crooked"? You expect me to believe they wouldn't quote that, instead quote "flawless in image.."? It is as unlikely as a vulture dining on the carcass of a mouse when there is a dead buffalo right in front of it.

Of course I do not concede the teeth part, as we do not know what context it was said, if at all it was said! For all we know, he might have meant she was too young ("her teeth are only just coming out"). Let's see what pipsqueak's translator has to say.

I wil go one step further. Even if her incomplete set of teeth was a reason - it would definitely be insensitive, yes, but as such is not ascribing ugliness on her, because her teeth would eventually grow. It puts a whole different spin when adjectives like her teeth were "crooked" and face "chubby" are added. You will have to accept that these adjectives were complete fabrications!

You are asking why the Chinese govt. Is it news to you that they exercise such control over the media?
Be that as it may, the counter question is what is stopping the western media from coming out
with the original transcript to put all these speculations to rest?

[Cernunnos]

Because the person who posted the youtube link is critical of the Chinese Politburo and the lip synching.
He's asking them to apologize to the world on behalf of China! (in the comments section).
Not every Chinese is a dyed-in-the-wool commie.
Even in the biased Chinese blog, they were critical of the lip synching.

i am not saying that the blog owner doctored it - who posted this video on youtube? what's the source?

I'm talking about the person 'humanchina' who posted the youtube video.
The statements I posted are from his own views in the comment section on youtube.
Btw, almost everyone who added their comment is critical of the switch.

It is not about intelligence.. It is about holding your nerve when a five billion people are watching you for 3 minutes!
It is not necessary that a winner of singing competition will have that ability.

The parallel with the hostesses is non-existent.

this is just wishful thinking on your part. i have seen no quotes stating this any where either! how can you be so sure?

".. flawless in image, internal feelings and expressions"

based on the precise requirements prescribed for hostesses, why should i not assume that in their quest for "flawlessness", they sought the same of the child singer as well? in fact, i am convinced of it.

The hostesses, like the bimbos paraded in Formula One or Packer cricket, do not have any role or focus
apart from being eye candy. That's not the same with the singer on whom the whole world's eyes
would be glued for a few minutes. One cannot afford that person to completely lose it under the pressure
and appear rigid in the face and trembling, especially when it's a child. Therefore, it's not a matter
of just putting an angelic face on stage. If it was for someone on the background, then I'd possibly agree with you.

Check this, just to see how the best voice buckled in a situation which had probably a hundredth of the pressure of the Olympics.
<a href="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=7920139092860292472" target="_blank">http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=7920139092860292472</a>

(One can give it a spin and say "oh, this is so human!" but which organiser would want this to happen in the first place?)

In fact I feel it is inhuman to expect a child to be performing live under that much pressure!

[prfsr]

It is not news that Chinese govt routinely controls media. BUT that does not make them innocent in any way!! Unless you want to argue that they remove ALL interviews hours after publishing them - i,e., it is standard policy. I could also say that "do you not know that the Western media is biased against China?" -- that does not make them conclusively guilty in this case either.

The Western media does not need to make a court case. To you and Fever perhaps. Not to me. I am happy to have some quotes and some third person text. This is not a court of law, and I do not want to read 300 lines of supporting evidence for each news article. I am sure they are somewhat biased, but I do not see them as vultures and nothing else. If they made up stuff, they sacrificed their integrity as journalists and that is reprehensible, irrespective of the nastiness of the comments. BUT just the fact that they did not quote some things is not important to me.

There is no point in this line of reasoning - you say "what is stopping the western media from coming out
with the original transcript to put all these speculations to rest?" to which I say "what is stopping the Chinese govt from coming out with the original transcript to put all these speculations (of bias) to rest?"

edit: I noted your response is "you answer me first"!! I will play the game and say "no you first".

We could do this all day and get nowhere.

I also note that you have no comments about the possibility of the Baidu cache having the sanitized version and of the futility of reasoning with tainted evidence.

[prfsr]

Check this, just to see how the best voice buckled in a situation which had probably a hundredth of the pressure of the Olympics.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7920139092860292472

Okay and what does this prove??? That there is some probability that a person will mess up. You knew that and I knew that without seeing any videos.

So 15 minutes before the contest, a politburo member realizes that in spite of the numerous practices, it is unsafe to go with a younger girl? And that was "an artistic decision" not made by the artistic director? Based on what evidence exactly? Or did the white western media play a part in this too?

[Cernunnos]

The Western media does not need to make a court case. To you and Fever perhaps. Not to me. I am happy to have some quotes and some third person text. This is not a court of law, and I do not want to read 300 lines of supporting evidence for each news article. I am sure they are somewhat biased, but I do not see them as vultures and nothing else. If they made up stuff, they sacrificed their integrity as journalists and that is reprehensible, irrespective of the nastiness of the comments. BUT just the fact that they did not quote some things is not important to me.

It is not about just putting some irrelevant things under quotes that I am asking for. When you have an article with the headline" China banned child singer with crooked teeth" One would expect crooked teeth under quotes and not "flawless image.." and other things.

I 'm done with this. Those who are willing to see my point would have already seen it by now.

[Cernunnos]

Check this, just to see how the best voice buckled in a situation which had probably a hundredth of the pressure of the Olympics.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7920139092860292472

Okay and what does this prove??? That there is some probability that a person will mess up. You knew that and I knew that without seeing any videos.

Because it is the contention of some that the pressure on the singer is the same as some flag bearers and hostesses.

[prfsr]

By the way, since we are parsing words and milking them for bias, chubby face for kids is not the same as ugly - it's considered cute in most places that I know. Sort of like "babyface" -- good for kids, may not be for adults. And the crooked teeth is true. My daughter had exactly similar teeth and will get braces. If some sources said "ugly" that is bad. Also she is "not pretty enough" and she is "ugly" are not the same thing at all -- if we are parsing words let's admit that as well. Finally the flawless image implies that the other girl had *visible* flaws -- the obvious ones were chubbiness and teeth. That is a very logical deduction, in my view. So again if we are going to examine every word, why say flawless in "image" and not only "flawless in feeling and expression" ?


 

[pipsqueak]

I'm talking about the person 'humanchina' who posted the youtube video.
The statements I posted are from his own views in the comment section on youtube.
Btw, almost everyone who added their comment is critical of the switch.

so? this proves nothing - he may have laid his hands on a doctored video. in view of the total blackout, how did he manage to get a video out? youtube comments are irrelevant to proving the authenticity of the video.

".. flawless in image, internal feelings and expressions"

let's focus on "flawless image" - you interpret it as "devoid of nerves", i interpret it as "no visible flaws in her person equating to flawless teeth, flawless skin". sure, the latter two qualities are important but the first one was ALSO critical. you can't deny that, can you? given that there is mention of "teeth" and "external appearance" in Chen's interview, this is an open and shut case.

The hostesses, like the bimbos paraded in Formula One or Packer cricket, do not have any role or focus
apart from being eye candy. That's not the same with the singer on whom the whole world's eyes
would be glued for a few minutes. One cannot afford that person to completely lose it under the pressure
and appear rigid in the face and trembling, especially when it's a child. Therefore, it's not a matter
of just putting an angelic face on stage. If it was for someone on the background, then I'd possibly agree with you.

...and what makes you so sure that the chinese authorities weren't looking for both talent and looks? if they can go to the extent of defining the ratio of various facial dimensions for a hostess, why isn't it reasonable to assume that they would seek something similar in addition to talent when it came to singing? after-all, Zhang Yimov is quoted asking for "cute" girls. now, am i to interpret "cute" and "adorable" in a particular way as well?

Chen Qigang: The director requested first and foremost adorable kids, and we identified about 10 children accordingly. We then listened to the singing of those kids, and not all of them had good enough voice to perform. The request from the director was that, first the appearance must be good, and of those, the one with the best voice and ability to sing should be picked. We went through a few such candidates through the process and they helped our music creation effort tremendously.

or another translation available on the web at

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/08/another-olympic-secret-who-was-actually-singing-as-the-national-flag-entered-the-stadium

Chen Qigang: The first condition was that the director wants the image to be very cute. We selected about ten children… Then we had to choose one from those who had a good image who can sing well…


i fail to understand how can you be so certain of their noble intentions. i still think it is merely wishful thinking on your part.

again, Yang Peiyi was the winner of the national singing competition. what makes you think she would have lost her nerve here? there is no evidence of any such thing! she simply wasn't "cute" enough and that's that.

[pipsqueak]

If Chen clearly said this, why wasn't he quoted by the Daily Telegraph (and others) saying that, instead of the more vague "flawless in image"? Again, no answers on that front.

may be because the ONLY published transcript of the interview they have is one sanitized translation, perhaps? the rest have been wiped out, remember?

The fact that commentor #134 went on to post the entire article, shows that there was nothing to hide.

yes and conclusively proves that "because of her teeth was coming in/growing", she was rejected. it was also interesting to note that this "foolsmountain" did not really do a thorough search of the chinese media space before publishing his investigative report. this indicates to me that he certainly has an agenda and uses only evidence that suits him - has to be certainly viewed with GREAT suspicion.

My first reading of it is that the article says that Yang Peiyi became a hot discussion topic as it was reported in
big media that the Chen replaced Peiyi because her teeth were coming out ... so once again they are quoting other
media sources. But feel free to get it translated yourself. And what about the "chubby face" part? Where did that come
from?

so far, we have only ONE article that is on the cache - who knows what was mentioned in other articles! if it was all innocent and above board, why this frantic blackout from the chinese authorities? how do you explain that?

And isn't it ironic that the "random blog" which you sought to put down is now your only lifeline in this debate?
Do you agree that the "random blog" is a better source of the facts than you preciously thought?

it is and has been clear to me that yang peiyi was dumped because of her looks - since you brought up this blog as your main evidence, i had to read it fully before dismissing/accepting its claims. my pointing out this fact was more in the hope of YOUR being convinced enough to accept that something is indeed rotten in the state of chinese olympic affairs.

this does not really change my view about blogs being a better source of information than newspapers. again, i have stated that i do not dismiss all blogs. i can decide either way only AFTER reading a blog for a sufficient period of time.

btw, do you now agree that TEETH being a factor was first mentioned by Chen and is not an invention of the western media?

[pipsqueak]

Check this, just to see how the best voice buckled in a situation which had probably a hundredth of the pressure of the Olympics.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7920139092860292472

Okay and what does this prove??? That there is some probability that a person will mess up. You knew that and I knew that without seeing any videos.

Because it is the contention of some that the pressure on the singer is the same as some flag bearers and hostesses.

i can't speak for every one but my contention is that chinese authorities looked for "perfect looks" in both the singer as well as the hostesses.

[pipsqueak]

Check this, just to see how the best voice buckled in a situation which had probably a hundredth of the pressure of the Olympics.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7920139092860292472

(One can give it a spin and say "oh, this is so human!" but which organiser would want this to happen in the first place?)

In fact I feel it is inhuman to expect a child to be performing live under that much pressure!

no one would have said anything if it wasn't live - there have been numerous instances where songs are recorded prior to an event and the artist lip-synchs it. the difference here is that the real singer and the "performer" were two different people! what makes it all the more sick is the age of the children involved and the deception.

[feverpitch]

A deception is a deception whether it involves one person or more. However, in the 'age of mechanical reproduction' and 'simulacra', is it at all possible to judge what is really real and what is not? Is it even necessary and important? Why valorize and hanker for the "lost object", when you can very well enjoy the "feeling" and get on with it!

Let's accept the fact — we are indeed living in postmodern (if not interesting) times!

[RicePlateReddy]

Why valorize and hanker for the "lost object", when you can very well enjoy the "feeling" and get on with it!

I've tried it with Rahul Dravid, but it just does not work.

BTW, do you like Jean Baudrillard?

[feverpitch]

Why valorize and hanker for the "lost object", when you can very well enjoy the "feeling" and get on with it!

I've tried it with Rahul Dravid, but it just does not work.

BTW, do you like Jean Baudrillard?

like/dislike are too strong words to use in this context. but yes, i've read much of his work.

[Cernunnos]

I'm talking about the person 'humanchina' who posted the youtube video.
The statements I posted are from his own views in the comment section on youtube.
Btw, almost everyone who added their comment is critical of the switch.

so? this proves nothing - he may have laid his hands on a doctored video. in view of the total blackout, how did he manage to get a video out? youtube comments are irrelevant to proving the authenticity of the video.

Yes, anything that is posted by a Chinese has to be doctored, even if it is from someone who is against the establishment! This interview was in the public space, undoctered, from Aug 10 till Aug 13. The Chinese removed the interview from websites only after it became such an issue. Anyone could have used a VCR and recorded this on their TVs! Just because the Chinese removed it from websites, their own personal versions would be 'doctored'?
 

".. flawless in image, internal feelings and expressions"

let's focus on "flawless image" - you interpret it as "devoid of nerves", i interpret it as "no visible flaws in her person equating to flawless teeth, flawless skin". sure, the latter two qualities are important but the first one was ALSO critical. you can't deny that, can you? given that there is mention of "teeth" and "external appearance" in Chen's interview, this is an open and shut case.

No I have never interpreted "flawless in image" as devoid of nerves, but "flawless in expression and internal feelings", which
you totally neglect. I have not once said that looks weren't a considerations, I said they were not the only consideration. I've said right from the start that it is a combination of three factors. Your reluctance to even talk about the other two criterion, is, frankly, annoying.

My only interest in this episode was it was reported that the singer was rejected only for her ugliness. That is certainly not the case, as Chen gave three criterion. I'm not an idealistic fool to think that looks do not play a role in this - and anyone who is railing against that is a hypocrite, imo. On the other hand I believe the emphasis on looks is a lot less in reality, because the organisers couldn't possibly afford a blooper like we saw in the poor girl's case in the video (who was also a winner of a competition). Comparing this with a hostess who's job is to smile and look pretty, is a non-starter.

[Cernunnos]

If Chen clearly said this, why wasn't he quoted by the Daily Telegraph (and others) saying that, instead of the more vague "flawless in image"? Again, no answers on that front.

may be because the ONLY published transcript of the interview they have is one sanitized translation, perhaps? the rest have been wiped out, remember?

Wiped out after it was lying in the public space for 3 days, while the Telegraph et al. were twiddling their thumbs all the while? Maybe the Politburo released a trojan in the Olympic village intranet which wiped out the mention of "teeth" from everybody's laptops?

The fact that commentor #134 went on to post the entire article, shows that there was nothing to hide.

yes and conclusively proves that "because of her teeth was coming in/growing", she was rejected. it was also interesting to note that this "foolsmountain" did not really do a thorough search of the chinese media space before publishing his investigative report. this indicates to me that he certainly has an agenda and uses only evidence that suits him - has to be certainly viewed with GREAT suspicion.

Why would he look into each and every news source, when he has the video in front of him?

My first reading of it is that the article says that Yang Peiyi became a hot discussion topic as it was reported in
big media that the Chen replaced Peiyi because her teeth were coming out ... so once again they are quoting other
media sources. But feel free to get it translated yourself. And what about the "chubby face" part? Where did that come
from?

so far, we have only ONE article that is on the cache - who knows what was mentioned in other articles! if it was all innocent and above board, why this frantic blackout from the chinese authorities? how do you explain that?

Because the Chinese have a strict policy of censorship, especially when it comes to it's Politburo members? I don't think the banning has anything to do with teeth and chubby face, and if they wanted to 'doctor' the video, they would remove the reference to the Politburo members first and foremost.
 
When the world has decided to allot the Olympics to a totalitarian regime, it has lost the right to complain about it's Laws.

[pipsqueak]

here's my friend's translation of that link. I asked him to make it as literal a translation as possible though he did tell me that the meaning conveyed is much more than just what it says - in his opinion, it conveyed that Yang Peiyi wasn't pretty enough. He is a chinese guy settled in Australia(please apply the appropriate biases!)

The first half talks about the girl being switched - nothing new or exciting there. The relevant part was translated as

"Chen said that Yang Peiyi was growing her teeth and the Communist Party wanted to have everything perfect"

interpret this whichever way you choose!

[Cernunnos]

And you missed the part at the beginning where it says it "became news after reports came out saying..".
Note that by the time the baidu report came out, the Aussies and Times had already released their reports.
So here's another secondhand source, which is only giving an "interpretation" of what Chen might have said.

Look, I consider the video to be a more authentic source,

1) If it were doctored, it wouldn't have Chen talking openly how the Politburo was interfering and wanting Lin's
voice replaced.
2) It is posted on youtbe by people critical of the Politburo.
3) The interview was in public space for 2-3 days. If the Chinese acted immediately after the interview,
there would be a case that all videos were doctored.
4) The audio and video are posted in many Chinese blogs, and the majority of users are critical of the
switch. But not one seems to insinuate that the video is doctored!

So I will just rely on the video and the peer reviewed transcripts.

[pipsqueak]

Yes, anything that is posted by a Chinese has to be doctored, even if it is from someone who is against the establishment! This interview was in the public space, undoctered, from Aug 10 till Aug 13. The Chinese removed the interview from websites only after it became such an issue. Anyone could have used a VCR and recorded this on their TVs! Just because the Chinese removed it from websites, their own personal versions would be 'doctored'?

i have no idea if "humanchina" is chinese nor not. i am just speculating on the possibility of doctoring given the quick and complete removal of evidence.

how do you know this has been on public space from aug 10? as per the following link and many other similar links, the interview was "briefly" published online at sino.com on aug 12, news spread through the chinese internet, chinese authorities put a stop on everything, wiped off all evidence - nothing appeared on newspapers/state television on wednesday, aug 13. please let me know how you discovered that this was posted on aug 10 itself. if indeed so, why were the chinese internet/newspapers silent about it until aug 12? iam unable to find any blog links prior to Aug 12 talking about this as well - please point me to some links.

Beijing's Olympic organisers admitted on Tuesday that nine-year-old Lin Miaoke, who was seen by millions around the world singing during the ceremony, was actually miming a song that was pre-recorded by another girl.

The show's musical director revealed the real singer, seven-year-old Yang Peiyi who has uneven teeth and a chubby face, was replaced by government order because she did not present the right image of China.

No newspaper reported on the issue on Wednesday and state broadcasters also avoided the subject. References to the story were blocked or deleted from the Internet.

Olympic organisers on Wednesday defended the switching of the seven-year-old singer with a more photogenic double, comparing it with an athlete getting dropped for a big game.


http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jB4-FSXv_hP3Wxxn2gt-y-9_LHtQ

No I have never interpreted "flawless in image" as devoid of nerves, but "flawless in expression and internal feelings", which
you totally neglect. I have not once said that looks weren't a considerations, I said they were not the only consideration. I've said right from the start that it is a combination of three factors. Your reluctance to even talk about the other two criterion, is, frankly, annoying.

My only interest in this episode was it was reported that the singer was rejected only for her ugliness. That is certainly not the case, as Chen gave three criterion. I'm not an idealistic fool to think that looks do not play a role in this - and anyone who is railing against that is a hypocrite, imo. On the other hand I believe the emphasis on looks is a lot less in reality, because the organisers couldn't possibly afford a blooper like we saw in the poor girl's case in the video (who was also a winner of a competition). Comparing this with a hostess who's job is to smile and look pretty, is a non-starter.

i wasn't comparing jobs but requirements laid out for the jobs and consider it reasonable to expect the organizers to be consistent - in fact, "cute/adorable" was the FIRST requirement even for the singer and then they wanted to choose a girl who can sing amongst those. anyway, i am beginning to feel like a broken record. i am not ignoring the other two but i am not convinced that those two were the deciding factors - nothing that chinese authorities have done help  convince me - sorry!

btw, what is "flawless internal feelings" wrt 7-9 year olds? sounds quite stupid, imo.

[pipsqueak]

Wiped out after it was lying in the public space for 3 days, while the Telegraph et al. were twiddling their thumbs all the while? Maybe the Politburo released a trojan in the Olympic village intranet which wiped out the mention of "teeth" from everybody's laptops?

i am not aware of this being in the public space for 3 days. could you point me to a link that says so? again, why did the western media stay quiet for so many days? strange! would they not have jumped at it at the first opportunity? remember, their agenda is to slander the chinese?

Why would he look into each and every news source, when he has the video in front of him?

to check if the chinese media started the business of teeth and cheeks after-all? that's his main grouse, ain't it?

Because the Chinese have a strict policy of censorship, especially when it comes to it's Politburo members? I don't think the banning has anything to do with teeth and chubby face, and if they wanted to 'doctor' the video, they would remove the reference to the Politburo members first and foremost.
 
When the world has decided to allot the Olympics to a totalitarian regime, it has lost the right to complain about it's Laws.

maybe - but one retains the right to be suspicious and not take everything at its face value.

[pipsqueak]

And you missed the part at the beginning where it says it "became news after reports came out saying..".
Note that by the time the baidu report came out, the Aussies and Times had already released their reports.
So here's another secondhand source, which is only giving an "interpretation" of what Chen might have said.

Look, I consider the video to be a more authentic source,

1) If it were doctored, it wouldn't have Chen talking openly how the Politburo was interfering and wanting Lin's
voice replaced.
2) It is posted on youtbe by people critical of the Politburo.
3) The interview was in public space for 2-3 days. If the Chinese acted immediately after the interview,
there would be a case that all videos were doctored.
4) The audio and video are posted in many Chinese blogs, and the majority of users are critical of the
switch. But not one seems to insinuate that the video is doctored!

So I will just rely on the video and the peer reviewed transcripts.

Baidu is just a search engine that had a link in its cache. The date of this report is

《歌唱祖国》非林妙可所唱 网友热捧原唱杨沛宜 网易 2008-8-12 19:21
杨沛宜的生活照 8月12日讯(文/Juna) …成为各大媒体报道的对象,昨天开幕式的音乐总监陈其钢接受采访时说到《歌唱祖国》的演唱者并非林妙可,而是7岁的小女孩杨沛宜,陈其钢透露,由于杨沛宜正在发牙齿,…

I think one can assume this is China time.

Here's the Time Online report dated Aug 13, likely GMT.

August 13, 2008

China banned child singer with crooked teeth from singing at opening ceremony
(China.com.cn)
Lin Miaoke, top, who lip-synched at the opening ceremony over the voice of Yang Peiyi, below, whose appearance concerned Chinese officials

Jane Macartney and Ashling O'Connor in Beijing

how do you say that Baidu link came AFTER Times Online? what am i missing? is there another report on Times? this is the link that is identified as the "source" of crooked teeth by our foolsmountain pal.

i don't know if the video was doctored or not but unless i can see all the reports in the chinese media about this incident, there is no way i can accept that the sole source of the crooked teeth comment is the western media.
baidu has dug up ONE article - i bet there were several more saying similar things.

to conclude this saga, let me say that while i am not certain about who started the teeth/cheeks story(due to missing evidence from china), i am more than convinced that Peiyi was rejected because of her not-so-cute looks. i don't think i will change this position based on blogs/news reports/videos/posts i have seen so far.

[RicePlateReddy]

Because the Chinese have a strict policy of censorship, especially when it comes to it's Politburo members? I don't think the banning has anything to do with teeth and chubby face, and if they wanted to 'doctor' the video, they would remove the reference to the Politburo members first and foremost.

This is an unsubstantiated assumption that is far weaker than anything else you are ascribing on the part of those with a contrarian view to yours. Show me one direct quote (Chinese source) who says that Politburo quotes are censored ahead of everything else?

[Cernunnos]

Yes, anything that is posted by a Chinese has to be doctored, even if it is from someone who is against the establishment! This interview was in the public space, undoctered, from Aug 10 till Aug 13. The Chinese removed the interview from websites only after it became such an issue. Anyone could have used a VCR and recorded this on their TVs! Just because the Chinese removed it from websites, their own personal versions would be 'doctored'?

i have no idea if "humanchina" is chinese nor not. i am just speculating on the possibility of doctoring given the quick and complete removal of evidence.

how do you know this has been on public space from aug 10?

http://www.welt.de/english-news/arti2317457/China_song_ceremony_fake.html

A member of China's Politburo asked for the last-minute change to match one girl's face with another's voice, the ceremony's chief music director, Chen Qigang, said in an interview with Beijing Radio.
„The audience will understand that it's in the national interest,“
Chen said in a video of the interview posted online Sunday night.

This should lay to rest all speculation that the video is somehow doctored.
The evidence was in public domain for 2-3 days.

[Cernunnos]

No I have never interpreted "flawless in image" as devoid of nerves, but "flawless in expression and internal feelings", which
you totally neglect. I have not once said that looks weren't a considerations, I said they were not the only consideration. I've said right from the start that it is a combination of three factors. Your reluctance to even talk about the other two criterion, is, frankly, annoying.

My only interest in this episode was it was reported that the singer was rejected only for her ugliness. That is certainly not the case, as Chen gave three criterion. I'm not an idealistic fool to think that looks do not play a role in this - and anyone who is railing against that is a hypocrite, imo. On the other hand I believe the emphasis on looks is a lot less in reality, because the organisers couldn't possibly afford a blooper like we saw in the poor girl's case in the video (who was also a winner of a competition). Comparing this with a hostess who's job is to smile and look pretty, is a non-starter.

i wasn't comparing jobs but requirements laid out for the jobs and consider it reasonable to expect the organizers to be consistent - in fact, "cute/adorable" was the FIRST requirement even for the singer and then they wanted to choose a girl who can sing amongst those.

Aah, so the standards for recruitment of a secretary and for a CEO should be the same then, just to be consistent?

Seriously, what were you expecting that the organisers wouldn't want an adorable girl, and that looks/adorability wouldn't be a part of showbiz??

[Cernunnos]

Why would he look into each and every news source, when he has the video in front of him?

to check if the chinese media started the business of teeth and cheeks after-all? that's his main grouse, ain't it?

The video was out on Sunday. He wrote a blog entry Tuesday criticising the switch ('imperfect perfection').
How would he know few days later some people would accuse the video to be doctored?

The people who claimed that Chen started the crooked/chubby business quoted sina.com.cn, and he checked that.
Nothing found.

[pipsqueak]

Yes, anything that is posted by a Chinese has to be doctored, even if it is from someone who is against the establishment! This interview was in the public space, undoctered, from Aug 10 till Aug 13. The Chinese removed the interview from websites only after it became such an issue. Anyone could have used a VCR and recorded this on their TVs! Just because the Chinese removed it from websites, their own personal versions would be 'doctored'?

i have no idea if "humanchina" is chinese nor not. i am just speculating on the possibility of doctoring given the quick and complete removal of evidence.

how do you know this has been on public space from aug 10?

http://www.welt.de/english-news/arti2317457/China_song_ceremony_fake.html

A member of China's Politburo asked for the last-minute change to match one girl's face with another's voice, the ceremony's chief music director, Chen Qigang, said in an interview with Beijing Radio.
„The audience will understand that it's in the national interest,“
Chen said in a video of the interview posted online Sunday night.

This should lay to rest all speculation that the video is somehow doctored.
The evidence was in public domain for 2-3 days.

there is no other link mentioning that it was posted ONLINE on sunday - some say that it was a sunday interview with a RADIO Station but it was revealed to public only on aug 12. so i seriously doubt the validity of this information - again, why were the chinese bloggers not posting till aug 12 on this topic? why were the chinese newspapers quiet?

[pipsqueak]

Why would he look into each and every news source, when he has the video in front of him?

to check if the chinese media started the business of teeth and cheeks after-all? that's his main grouse, ain't it?

The video was out on Sunday. He wrote a blog entry Tuesday criticising the switch ('imperfect perfection').
How would he know few days later some people would accuse the video to be doctored?

The people who claimed that Chen started the crooked/chubby business quoted sina.com.cn, and he checked that.
Nothing found.

i repeat, why am i unable to find any references to this in blogs/web PRIOR to aug 12? i do not thinkthe video was online until aug 12, china time and everything was removed by aug 13 and no newspapers/state broadcasters reported this on wednesday.

also, you haven't explained why Telegraph and others, while having full access to the video, did not print a word about it until aug 13 - too many holes in your theory!